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[Bojji]

So you straw man my detailed explanation and then you throw in another straw man about RTX 3080.

I quite literally explained what's going on. The stutters come from the CPU not being able to keep up. Look up Monster Hunters Wild's stutters being fixed by uncompressing the game on storage…..

When the GPU waits on data from RAM, your performance tanks. It's not simple frametime variance.

RTX 3080 having 10GB was the right thing to do. In fact it was prophetic, given the VRAM shortage that followed. Nvidia was forced to choose between 10GB and 20GB and they chose right.

Cyberpunk isn't using the same texture method vs. Monster Hunter. In fact, no other game is and there is a mod that allows you to uncompress MH textures...

Stuttering comes from data spilling out of VRAM and going through PCIE into the main RAM - it's slow and have nothing to do with CPU. You have no idea what are you talking about.

More VRAM is the fix here (more PCIE BW also helps)

5800X3D with 16GB of VRAM outperforming 9800X3D with 8GB - WOW.

 

[MCH2024]

Pretty sure he's the guy that was claiming 12GB of VRAM was "high end"...

It is high end. Calling 600$+ GPUs midrange is delusional

 

[viveks86]

How many games are actually using Kraken and decompression blocks on PS5 in real time streaming? Outside of SM2? This is rare

Aren't they all? Any game that streams game assets without loading screens would already be leveraging these blocks. If the PS5 install size is noticeably lower than PC/XS, they are using Kraken/Oodle.

They may not be leveraging the entire throughput available, but they are using it.

No comments on the VRAM bottleneck debate on current gen as I know nothing about it, but I believe this his how most games leverage PS5's I/O, albeit not to its full capacity.

 

[Bojji]

Aren't they all? Any game that streams game assets without loading screens would already be leveraging these blocks. If the PS5 install size is noticeably lower than PC/XS, they are using Kraken/Oodle.

They may not be leveraging the entire throughput available, but they are using it.

No comments on the VRAM bottleneck as I know nothing about it, but I believe this his how most games leverage PS5's I/O, albeit not to its full capacity.

Most games still load data using CPU, using DB is not really common this gen (even not all Sony games are using it - like GOWR).

Adoption is blocked by compatibility with PC I guess, but it's not like directstorage doesn't exist.

 

[viveks86]

Most games still load data using CPU, using DB is not really common this gen (even not all Sony games are using it - like GOWR).

Adoption is blocked by compatibility with PC I guess, but it's not like directstorage doesn't exist.

Ha. Interesting. I wonder what this means for PS6.

Even with DiresctStorage, I believe GPU decompression is still not in place, which would affect adoption.

 

[MCH2024]

Cyberpunk isn't using the same texture method vs. Monster Hunter. In fact, no other game is and there is a mod that allows you to uncompress MH textures...

the norm is for textures and assets to be compressed. MH there was a pathway to decompress it is all.

Have you tried gaming with 8GB SYS RAM but lots of VRAM? You get stutters because your CPU keeps having to compress and decompress memory pages. A better cpu would have fixed those.

Anyway, I know for a fact 5070 works in 4K Path Tracing Overdrive. It runs at ~35 fps without FG. Over 60 with FG.

All I saw from your image is 46% CPU usage, unstable frametimes but fine FPS. It's a streaming issue which could be any part of the streaming pipeline. CPU or PCIe or even MEM. Valid point on PCIe since that could be the issue. I jumped to conclusions based on the CPU usage.

Fwiw, Xbox Mode reduces RAM/VRAM use so that will definitely help with marginal cases like this. But keep in mind we are also talking about 4K Path Tracing here. This is about the most extreme use case scenario and it's marginal on 12GB.

More VRAM is the fix here (more PCIE BW also helps)

5800X3D with 16GB of VRAM outperforming 9800X3D with 8GB - WOW.

Compare first and second images. That's what I was talking about.

 

[Bojji]

Your stupid thing shows that a faster CPU helps here FFS. Compare first and second images.

It does, but how it compares to performance using 16GB GPU?

CPU if fucking irrelevant when you are VRAM limited, even with high PCIE BW and the best CPU on the planet you will get stuttering mess when game goes out of memory. I stop the conversation here because you don't understand.

If you think low VRAM GPUs are fine in modern games... you are also 100% allowed to believe in ghosts and Aliens as well.

 

[MCH2024]

CPU if fucking irrelevant when you are VRAM limited

Look at your first and second images. They literally disprove this statement.

Yes, when you have less VRAM, you have to stream more frequently. This might cause issues by itself. Your CPU might not decompress in time, causing a stutter, your PCIe might not be fast enough so you have pop-in. Even games that have full performance at 8GB, still usually heavily rely on streaming.

With path tracing the CPU in particular gets hammered. So it has less leeway to deal with more I/O operations.

But there is also a difference between that and the GPU working set spilling over. If the GPU waits on RAM, your performance quite literally goes to 0.

All this isn't relevant for a console because PS5/PS6 are built around streaming data. Both the fact it's UMA and the fact it has dedicated compression/decompression engines and that developers can guarantee fast NVMe SSDs.

 

[Bojji]

Look at your first and second images. They literally disprove this statement.

Yes, when you have less VRAM, you have to stream more frequently. This might cause issues by itself. Your CPU might not decompress in time, causing a stutter, your PCIe might not be fast enough so you have pop-in. Even games that have full performance at 8GB, still usually heavily rely on streaming.

But there is also a difference between that and the GPU working set spilling over. If the GPU waits on RAM, your performance quite literally goes to 0.

With path tracing the CPU in particular gets hammered. So it has less leeway to deal with having to deal with more compression and decompression and more memory operations.

Calculate performance difference between 8GB with Zen 3 and Zen 5 here vs. performance difference vs. 16GB GPU (with any CPU) - CPU is irrelevant when your performance sucks because of VRAM.

Same CPU, different PCIE

PCIE version actually makes a difference, but you still have shit 1% lows.

Monster hunter you mentioned, same cpu.

That 2FPS 1% low on 8GB GPU is lovely. CPU they use is 9800X3D by the way.

 

[MCH2024]

CPU is irrelevant when your performance sucks because of VRAM.

You keep saying that CPU is irrelevant and yet you provided one that shows that CPU actually makes a substantial difference. Even if it doesn't fully solve the problem.

We were talking about CP2077 4K Path Tracing which runs fine on 12GB. A better CPU would objectively help in the case of getting around the expected FPS but with unstable variance.

That 2FPS 1% low on 8GB GPU is lovely. CPU they use is 9800X3D by the way.

Fixed by decompressing the game btw. That's all it took for the most infamous VRAM raster game to run fine on 8GB at 1440p btw.

Also 9800X3D isn't magic. It's a cache merchant chip with meh ST. Any modern smartphone has better 1-2T than 9800X3D.

Please keep HUB VRAM FUD contained. It's tone deaf ATP.

If you wanna keep going we can agree to disagree. Or take it DMs.

 

[Bojji]

You keep saying that CPU is irrelevant and yet you provided one that shows that CPU actually makes a substantial difference. Even if it doesn't fully solve the problem.

We were talking about CP2077 4K Path Tracing which runs fine on 12GB. A better CPU would objectively help in the case of getting around the expected FPS but with unstable variance.

Fixed by decompressing the game btw. That's all it took for the most infamous VRAM raster game to run fine on 8GB at 1440p btw.

Also 9800X3D isn't magic. It's a cache merchant chip with meh ST. Any modern smartphone has better 1-2T than 9800X3D.

Please keep HUB VRAM FUD contained. It's tone deaf ATP.

123 to 131 fps is "substantial" when correct performance is over 170fps for this gpu? And this performance is the same between 5800X3D and 9800X3D, game is not CPU limited at all here.

9800X3D - is nothing special, the best gaming CPU on the planet right now? Ok lol.

And if you think that spreading lies about how "8GB of memory is enough for modern games" is better than HU exposing the truth, more power to you. Developers won't start developing their games differently because you wish for it.

 

[Brucey]

Look at your first and second images. They literally disprove this statement.

Yes, when you have less VRAM, you have to stream more frequently. This might cause issues by itself. Your CPU might not decompress in time, causing a stutter, your PCIe might not be fast enough so you have pop-in. Even games that have full performance at 8GB, still usually heavily rely on streaming.

With path tracing the CPU in particular gets hammered. So it has less leeway to deal with more I/O operations.

But there is also a difference between that and the GPU working set spilling over. If the GPU waits on RAM, your performance quite literally goes to 0.

All this isn't relevant for a console because PS5/PS6 are built around streaming data. Both the fact it's UMA and the fact it has dedicated compression/decompression engines and that developers can guarantee fast NVMe SSDs.

I've been trying to understand what you mean by streaming when vram is maxed out and realized you are actually talking about paging.

 

[Brucey]

123 to 131 fps is "substantial" when correct performance is over 170fps for this gpu? And this performance is the same between 5800X3D and 9800X3D, game is not CPU limited at all here.

9800X3D - is nothing special, the best gaming CPU on the planet right now? Ok lol.

And if you think that spreading lies about how "8GB of memory is enough for modern games" is better than HU exposing the truth, more power to you. Developers won't start developing their games differently because you wish for it.

His response:

"Also 9800X3D isn't magic. It's a cache merchant chip with meh ST. Any modern smartphone has better 1-2T than 9800X3D."

Absolute trolling.

 

[MCH2024]

123 to 131 fps is "substantial" when correct performance is over 170fps for this gpu? And this performance is the same between 5800X3D and 9800X3D, game is not CPU limited at all here.

123 to 137 (funny how you can't be honest about it). and the diff in lows is meaningful. anyway to circle back to where this discussion was supposed to be about, It was about you saying 12GB doesn't work for CP2077 4K PT based on stuttering. In which case yea as your thing showed it did improve the lows.

CPU limited isn't an absolute binary. you can be held back by cpu 5% of the time and that 5% could stutter you without being CPU bound on average.

Here is a 5070 running 4K PT. it runs fine. You can also see 9800X3D being pushed quite hard with threads almost reaching 70% frequently even though FPS is 30~35. because the combination of heavy streaming + path tracing is very computationally intensive.

"Also 9800X3D isn't magic. It's a cache merchant chip with meh ST. Any modern smartphone has better 1-2T than 9800X3D."

It's a fact. It's a good gaming chip but if games started wanting fat game threads it's going to choke. it doesn't have brute ST.

 

[Bojji]

123 to 137 (funny how you can't be honest about it). and the diff in lows is meaningful. anyway to circle back to where this discussion was supposed to be about, It was about you saying 12GB doesn't work for CP2077 4K PT based on stuttering. In which case yea as your thing showed it did improve the lows.

CPU limited isn't an absolute binary. you can be held back by cpu 5% of the time and that 5% could stutter you without being CPU bound on average.

Here is a 5070 running 4K PT. it runs fine. You can also see 9800X3D being pushed quite hard with threads almost reaching 70% frequently even though FPS is 30~35. because the combination of heavy streaming + path tracing is very computationally intensive.




It's a fact. It's a good gaming chip but if games started wanting fat game threads it's going to choke. it doesn't have brute ST.

Night City has much lower VRAM and CPU requirements than Dogtown, it was running fine on my 4070ti as well.

 

[MCH2024]

Night City has much lower VRAM and CPU requirements than Dogtown, it was running fine on my 4070ti as well.

Thanks for the clarification.

I mean the above video shows 9800X3D almost at the limit. it won't be able to handle any more I/O operations that that. So a different part of the game might push it overboard. but then things like Xbox Mode will help put you back in the green by reducing RAM/VRAM use.

All in all, you can see that 12GB is very marginal for 4K PT in CP2077. It's not accurate to say that 16GB is required for it.

 

[twilo99]

- The post features a dot plot visualization of global population (~8.3B people) where each dot represents ~3.3 million humans, colored by AI usage level as of May 2026: gray for never used (78%), green for free chatbot users (21%), yellow for paid subscribers (0.72%), and red for advanced coding scaffold/agent users (0.12%).

- A small cluster of yellow and red dots at the bottom illustrates how a tiny fraction of advanced users drives outsized compute demand compared to casual or non-users, with the author arguing this "singular red dot" dynamic is creating the current AI compute shortage.

- Between February and May 2026 estimates, paid AI users grew from ~15-25M to ~60M and advanced users from ~2-5M to ~10M, supporting the claim that memory stocks tied to AI infrastructure remain undervalued as adoption scales beyond basic chatbots.

 

[Bojji]

Thanks for the clarification.

I mean the above video shows 9800X3D almost at the limit. it won't be able to handle any more I/O operations that that. So a different part of the game might push it overboard. but then things like Xbox Mode will help put you back in the green by reducing RAM/VRAM use.

All in all, you can see that 12GB is very marginal for 4K PT in CP2077. It's not accurate to say that 16GB is required for it.

It's required if you want to play the whole game without problems (with PT). This stuttering pushed me to drop 12GB GPUs in 2024.

FH6, same settings:

Under 30fps vs. over 60fps - GPU with the same level of power, only difference being the memory. Some will ask: "why are you using max settings on xx60ti GPU, it's clearly not meant for that!"

It's not? It runs the game 60-90FPS....

 

[KeplerL2]

No you can here. You don't get what's going on.

If the game was using 15GB, then yes you can't fix it with a better CPU. Your performance dies because you're waiting on host mapped memory. Or in most cases you'd crash.

The game here is using 10.5 GBs and is doing streaming constantly. the game is streaming back and forth from RAM and VRAM. The reason for the unstable frametimes is that the CPU itself is being overwhelmed. Mostly from having to do real time compressing and decompressing of assets and pages. and I don't know what CPU that is, but most X86 CPUs suck.

On say PS5, you could just use Kracken and stream it from SSD without having to be burdened by the low performance X86 CPU.

You don't thus "need" 15GB. It's only happening here because the CPU is shitting the bed. It's the same reason why Monster Hunter started working fine on 8GB once they decompressed the damn game.

lmao this is hilarious cope, do you realize how fast CPUs are compared to the tiny amount of PCIe bandwidth they have?

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

It's required if you want to play the whole game without problems (with PT). This stuttering pushed me to drop 12GB GPUs in 2024.

FH6, same settings:

Under 30fps vs. over 60fps - GPU with the same level of power, only difference being the memory. Some will ask: "why are you using max settings on xx60ti GPU, it's clearly not meant for that!"

It's not? It runs the game 60-90FPS....

I honestly wouldn't bother trying to reason with him anymore. Guy basically said I was spreading misinformation by showing how much ram these modern games use lol.

Anyone that extremely delusional is impossible to reason with. No matter what kinda evidence you show them.

 

[MCH2024]

lmao this is hilarious cope, do you realize how fast CPUs are compared to the tiny amount of PCIe bandwidth they have?

Most CPUs that people use aren't that fast. even the latest ones get pushed fairly hard by significant I/O work + PT or if it's a Chinese mobile AAA game with a fat game thread.

PS5 having Kracken is such a god send.

Fingers crossed for Zen6. Hopefully it really hits 7.0 GHz.

 

[MCH2024]

I honestly wouldn't bother trying to reason with him anymore. Guy basically said I was spreading misinformation by showing how much ram these modern games use lol.

Yea, most of your BS list ran no problems on 12GB. Even the marginal one, path tracing 4K, would probably work with Xbox mode. It literally is on the knife's edge.

You don't actually need that much VRAM. Indiana Jones PT is the major one where you really want 16GB.

 

[KeplerL2]

Most CPUs that people use aren't that fast. even the latest ones get pushed fairly hard by significant I/O work + PT or if it's a Chinese mobile AAA game with a fat game thread.

PS5 having Kracken is such a god send.

Fingers crossed for Zen6. Hopefully it really hits 7.0 GHz.

Most people don't have a PCIe Gen5 x16 GPU with 8GB of VRAM either. And even in that scenario you won't be CPU bottlenecked.

 

[ergem]

If Sony continues to be obstinate and put unnecessary amount of RAM in the PS6, they will lose the price advantage. Later on you will find GPUs faster and more powerful than the one in PS6 with only 16GB of RAM and at half the price running games with cleaner image, better path tracing and more FPS.

 

[nkill20]

If Sony continues to be obstinate and put unnecessary amount of RAM in the PS6, they will lose the price advantage. Later on you will find GPUs faster and more powerful than the one in PS6 with only 16GB of RAM and at half the price running games with cleaner image, better path tracing and more FPS.

No such as unnecessary ram for developers.

 

[Felessan]

If Sony continues to be obstinate and put unnecessary amount of RAM in the PS6, they will lose the price advantage. Later on you will find GPUs faster and more powerful than the one in PS6 with only 16GB of RAM and at half the price running games with cleaner image, better path tracing and more FPS.

And those would be bottlenecked by VRAM, bringing down all their raw performance advantage, in console-first games
If game intented for 25GB RAM it will perform like shit on 16GB GPU in many cases

 

[MCH2024]

Idk what's your source but it's not *that* bad

It's not that wrong. This is from the Morgan Stanley for the average selling price. notes:

1. N3B inflates 3nm price since it costs more than N3E/P/C
2. Exact wafer price can vary based on metal layer count , etc.
3. Below is from the revenue PoV, thus it includes customers paying big premiums to have their orders jump the line and for short production runs.
4. Outdated, doesn't show the historic TSMC price hike in 2026-2027.

Quarter	16nm	7nm	5nm	3nm	2nm
1Q21	$5,000	$10,500	$14,500	-
2Q21	$4,900	$10,200	$14,600	-
3Q21	$4,900	$10,200	$14,700	-	-
4Q21	$5,000	$10,200	$14,800	-
1Q22	$5,400	$10,900	$15,200	-
2Q22	$5,400	$10,900	$15,200
3Q22	$5,400	$10,900	$15,200	-
4Q22	$5,400	$10,900	$15,200	-
1Q23	$5,700	$11,200	$15,600	-
2Q23	$5,700	$11,200	$15,600	-
3Q23	$5,700	$11,200	$15,800	$21,500	-
4Q23	$5,700	$11,200	$15,800	$21,500	-
1Q24	$5,700	$11,100	$15,800	$21,500
2Q24	$5,700	$10,900	$15,800	$21,500	-
3Q24e	$5,600	$10,800	$15,800	$21,500	$25,800
4Q24e	$5,500	$10,700	$16,200	$22,500	$25,800
1Q25e	$5,400	$10,500	$18,000	$22,800	$25,800
2Q25e	$5,400	$10,500	$18,000	$22,800	$25,800
3Q25e	$5,400	$10,500	$17,900	$23,000	$25,700
4Q25e	$5,400	$10,500	$17,900	$23,000	$25,700
1Q26e	$5,600	$10,500	$18,500	$24,000	$28,000
2Q26e	$5,600	$10,500	$18,500	$24,500	$28,000
3Q26e	$5,600	$10,500	$18,500	$24,500	$28,000
4Q26e	$5,600	$10,500	$18,500	$24,500	$28,000

The major issue is that newer nodes require extensive design work to get the shrink. And it's difficult to expect AMD to do that for a marginal reduction in the die price.

 

[twilo99]

We are in a situation where Sony dictates what developers do or don't do, so if they ship a box with 20gb of RAM every single developer will have to optimize for that, or even better if they ship multiple lower end SKUs like a handheld or whatever.

So, what's the problem? Sounds like a win to me.

The weaker the specs, the more developers will have to write good code for their game to run on PLAYSTATION.

 

[MCH2024]

We are in a situation where Sony dictates what developers do or don't do

The sentiment is partially correct. But Sony themselves don't have a (1) free hand to choose nor (2) absolute market power to dictate.

First, (1) They need 30GB for the AI features that will define Gen10/11 gaming + they can't simply release a 10-15% worse 4080 fige to eight years late. They need the differentiation from PC that 30GB VRAM offers. If they could simply ship 15/20GB this wouldn't actually be a dilemma.

Second, (2) we went from 175M "high end consoles" (as defined by US courts) last two generations to at most 120M this generation and probably less than 80M for the next one. And other platforms (entry/legacy consoles, GeForce, Mobile, etc) have grown like wildfire during that period. Furthermore, Developers are now required to attempt to address a larger install base to reduce project risk. Thus, the market power of Sony in dictating to developers has meaningfully diminished.

Imo they need to push Docked Mode for PS6 Switch to reach 2.4 GHz. So that it can tie PS5 Proper in docked mode raster. Then they can basically make PS6 Switch the PS6 and the PS6 just a pro that releases in 28-30 with pro pricing.

"PS5, but cheaper, with AI Upscaling, RayTracing and you can take it on the go. Additionally, it will now have games!"

Is a very compelling package. Though it's probably not a generation ahead of PS5 without 24GB RAM. (Which is hard to do without destroying the economics of it and compromising the security of the memory supply).

 

[Felessan]

So, what's the problem? Sounds like a win to me.

The weaker the specs, the more developers will have to write good code for their game to run on PLAYSTATION.

It doesn't work this way
Weaker spec means more cuts everywhere, not more optimization
Good code doesn't really depends on specs of anything, it depends solely on game budget allocation - you either add more features (more content, better graphics etc) or optimize less features better.

 

[AJUMP23]

They need to build a better SW pipeline and have regular releases. Two major releases a year and then smaller games 4 other times a year.

 

[slrbomber]

CXMT DDR5 is gaining traction. We may get lower memory prices as the big 3 adjust to YMTC and CXMT produce more DDR5 memory! And obviously the implications of this on the PS6 launch price and date

 

[viveks86]

CXMT DDR5 is gaining traction. We may get lower memory prices as the big 3 adjust to YMTC and CXMT produce more DDR5 memory! And obviously the implications of this on the PS6 launch price and date

Didn't think I'd ever say this, but China entering the ring is making me happy

 

[German Shocks]

Didn't think I'd ever say this, but China entering the ring is making me happy

With EV vehicles, too.