fart town usa
Gold Member
Pretty wild.
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Sega Saturn - Metal Gear Solid (fan made) Prototype
- Thread starter fart town usa
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64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
Yeah. The Saturn could do 3D. It could have done Metal Gear Solid if it were ported to it, albeit a bit worse than Playstation. This isn't all that impressive, lol
fart town usa
Gold Member
Come on bruh. Surely you can appreciate that someone took the time and effort to make this. That in itself is really impressive.
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64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
Fair enough, coding for Saturn must be a hellscape.
I just think that they could've used that time on a much more interesting project like a decompilation of MGS.
Krappadizzle
Member
Gosh, I remember playing Nights on a Sega Saturn on that crazy controller at a Best Buy and thinking it was amazing. Really wanted a Saturn, but then I played Resident Evil 2 at my buddy's house and had to get a Playstation. MGS ended up being my favorite game on that system. It would have been really interesting to see an actual Saturn version of MGS and what would have had to happen to get it to run on the system.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Considering the mostly top down camera a game of that scale would be doable on Saturn for sure, but nobody would fund such a massive production for it and the cut scenes and other stuff probably couldn't be pulled off to the same degree in real time in engine visuals.
Cool tech demo replicating details that impressed folks back then like the fake reflections in the puddle. Shenmue was a good indication of how AAA caliber games would look on Saturn (and their performance but those visuals would be a great excuse for that back then).
People mostly judged stuff based on seeing great artistic production value games elsewhere when obviously things could look a lot better on Saturn too if the game engine was decent. Like this homebrew engine with programmer (and random quake) art -> Unreal assets.
->
Released Saturn games showed pretty good 3D anyway of course, from Tomb Raider to Exhumed/Powerslave, other fan favorites like Burning Rangers as well but that one has more prominent often seen on Saturn issues like its aggressive polygon disappearing, pop in, etc.
The homebrew engine above and some of the better games are very impressive in their 3D being really solid looking and not having polygons randomly disappear when on the edges of the camera which happens even in the flagship titles like Virtua Fighter 2 for example.
Edit: apparently this tech demo is made with the same homebrew engine demonstrated using Unreal assets above so yeah. There's also the uncut video which is more fun to watch with the additional content and amazing ending to it (it doesn't cut the end's codec call out).
Cool tech demo replicating details that impressed folks back then like the fake reflections in the puddle. Shenmue was a good indication of how AAA caliber games would look on Saturn (and their performance but those visuals would be a great excuse for that back then).
People mostly judged stuff based on seeing great artistic production value games elsewhere when obviously things could look a lot better on Saturn too if the game engine was decent. Like this homebrew engine with programmer (and random quake) art -> Unreal assets.
->
Released Saturn games showed pretty good 3D anyway of course, from Tomb Raider to Exhumed/Powerslave, other fan favorites like Burning Rangers as well but that one has more prominent often seen on Saturn issues like its aggressive polygon disappearing, pop in, etc.
The homebrew engine above and some of the better games are very impressive in their 3D being really solid looking and not having polygons randomly disappear when on the edges of the camera which happens even in the flagship titles like Virtua Fighter 2 for example.
Edit: apparently this tech demo is made with the same homebrew engine demonstrated using Unreal assets above so yeah. There's also the uncut video which is more fun to watch with the additional content and amazing ending to it (it doesn't cut the end's codec call out).
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fart town usa
Gold Member
That Hellslave game is really cool and I forgot that there's the Unreal port too, I think made by the same group of people possibly?
I recently saw that someone made something for Tomb Raider on Saturn, like the extra stuff that was in the PC version. I'm sure we've chatted in Saturn threads but I have a Satiator so I have easy access to these homebrew things. I've been out of the loop for a few months now, sometime this winter I'll have to catch up on what the community has been working on.
MrTroubleMaker
Member
That's neat!
Geometric-Crusher
Member
Saturn does have certain disadvantages compared to the Playstation. I don't deny it, but just like the PS1 and N64 the Saturn delivered many games in 3D, there would be more but they were canceled or moved to the Dreamcast. Saturn is my favorite console to date. Thanks to the limitations of 3D, many 2D and 2.5D games were made, It's almost perfect.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Was that Shenmue demo running on actual Saturn hardware or a PC? Because it looks way better than any released Saturn 3D game I've seen, and better than most PS1 games as well. Some aspects of those visuals seem closer to PS2 quality. Sure, at 20fps, but still.
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Team Andromeda
Member
I sort of agree. I don't get the point in this. Overlooking back in the day with the Saturn tools and knowledge base. I doubt we would have a version anywhere near that of the PS version. I just don't see what demo's like this achieve.
Team Andromeda
Member
Stock hardware not even using the 4 MEG Cart but it was an unfished game and I always rather go on released games than tech demos or games running on development hardware
I still say Grandia got the best visuals out of the system
March Climber
Member
Much needed context from the creator of this:
The Saturn managed to shine in 3D with gems like Sega Rally and Virtua Fighter 2, demonstrating its true potential when developers harnessed its technology. Still, it couldn't bridge the growing gap with the PlayStation, its bad reputation killed her, sadly...
Saturn's story is a mix of grand promises, initial letdowns, standout titles, and an abrupt end.
Despite the years, this bad reputation sticks to the skin of the Saturn and it's not uncommon (while games like Burning Rangers are there to prove the opposite) to read people claiming that the Saturn would have been technically incapable to handle PlayStation titles such as Metal Gear Solid.
In order to understand how the console works I started this Prototype, sorry, it's not a leak from a guy who left Konami in a Cardboard Box with Hideo Kojima
At first my Protoype was based on the Jo Engine (made by Johannes Fetz) and I moved after on the Z-Treme Engine (made by Maxime "XL2"). Big respect for you guys! You are Saturn experts and crazy geniuses!
Ofc there are bugs, no enemies and multiple optimizations could still be made but I'm quite happy with the result and I think I was able to achieve my goal to demonstrate that Metal Gear Solid could very well have been released on Sega's 32 bit and that the Saturn could have shown us much MUCH more.
More context from the video description...
He does go further into how difficult this was for him and how difficult it would have been for the official team to port to Saturn in a patreon post, but the post is paywall locked.
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Saturn does also have some advantages over PS1.
In particular in a 3D game where the floor is flat instead of using a bunch of polygons to render it like PS1 would, Saturn could simply use VDP2 to manipulate a 2D background ala Mode7.
Many of the most impressive Saturn 3D games use this trick (for example: Panzer Dragoon 2, Virtua Fighter 2, Grandia).
It's also the reason why some multi platform 3D games like Street Racer and Mass Destruction run better on Saturn than PS1.
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Team Andromeda
Member
It was a game built from the ground up for PS hardware never mind how much better SONY tools were by 1998 with the Performance Analsier and whatnot
Any game built from the ground up for hardware and had years and tons of money spent on it tends to suffer with a port to another console, even a more powerful one even the PS had issues trying to handle some Saturn exclusives like Grandia or Thunder Force IV
Any port can be done to a different system, it is what lost in the process.
I think the Saturn would have found it easier to handle a port of FF7 to a game like MGS myself.
SkylineRKR
Member
Shenmue looks like a legit Saturn build. It has the typical Saturn texturework and flat lighting with crushed blacks. The forest scene looks like typical VDP2 at work.
cireza
Member
Saturn games that push polygons and look the best are the ones relying heavily on the VDP2, in my opinion. Which means not having full 3D backgrounds, but rather displaying infinite planes. This helps keeping all the polygons for the 3D models on top, and the console handles this perfectly well.
Anything full 3D including background is complicated for the console, most of the time. The more you fill up the screen with pixels provided by VDP2, the better the output/framerate will be.
Anything full 3D including background is complicated for the console, most of the time. The more you fill up the screen with pixels provided by VDP2, the better the output/framerate will be.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Now that’s some dedication.
delfrickintree
Banned
Its kind of fascinating to see the difference of how saturn and ps render their graphics. Most notably is Tomb Raider. Theres something janky and rugged about saturn version, on top of the already primitive ps version, that really adds grit to its character. I would love a mgs version on saturn to see how much of a vibe change there would be.
Also I had a sudden realization that sega consoles have cooler names than sony. Cmon... Genesis, Saturn
!! Thats way cooler than playskool funtime games 3d or whatever. Reminds me of how I want the ps5 pro to be dubbed The Brute because it just adds horsepower instead of advancing the tech. Sega would name a new console something like Rift or Vector.
Also I had a sudden realization that sega consoles have cooler names than sony. Cmon... Genesis, Saturn
!! Thats way cooler than playskool funtime games 3d or whatever. Reminds me of how I want the ps5 pro to be dubbed The Brute because it just adds horsepower instead of advancing the tech. Sega would name a new console something like Rift or Vector.
Shifty1897
Member
That's putting it mildly. I remember reading how devs had to dump the devkit and code their game in Assembly(!) in order to get maximum performance out of the Saturn.
Geometric-Crusher
Member
yes I know. In short, depending on the game design, this could give advantages to the Saturn but there are limitations, in 3D racing games this technique cannot be used, nor in the main 3D platforms that we have come to know such as Tomb Raider 2, Rayman 2, Gex Enter The Gecko (advanced game) even Croc 2.
Geometric-Crusher
Member
There are 3 ways to pair the PS1 with Saturn.
matching both in polygon count per frame and locking the Saturn game at 20fps and the PS1 at 30fps.
The frame rate of both is equalized at 30fps by cutting the polygonal count per frame, shadows and lighting on the Sega Saturn
The third way is to zoom in on a PS1 game, reducing field of view and draw distance on Saturn version, this way all the main effects, frame rate are maintained
Despite the three forms, the Saturn will always have disadvantages in shadows and 3D transparency
matching both in polygon count per frame and locking the Saturn game at 20fps and the PS1 at 30fps.
The frame rate of both is equalized at 30fps by cutting the polygonal count per frame, shadows and lighting on the Sega Saturn
The third way is to zoom in on a PS1 game, reducing field of view and draw distance on Saturn version, this way all the main effects, frame rate are maintained
Despite the three forms, the Saturn will always have disadvantages in shadows and 3D transparency
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Shenmue is one of those “ how the hell!?” Deals. I looks better than most games at the time on any system.
The Saturn was a big victim of “ why should we put in any effort? “ when it came to third parties.
Its architecture was so different from the way 3D graphics were heading and the failure in the west meant that there was little incentive to put in any time into the machine.
So some of the few multiconsle third party games were said to be ported by just adding an extra vertex overlapping a vertex to a 3 sided polygon to make it a quad .. that meant The Saturn had to push more vertices and draw more pixels than what was actually needed.
The Saturn was a big victim of “ why should we put in any effort? “ when it came to third parties.
Its architecture was so different from the way 3D graphics were heading and the failure in the west meant that there was little incentive to put in any time into the machine.
So some of the few multiconsle third party games were said to be ported by just adding an extra vertex overlapping a vertex to a 3 sided polygon to make it a quad .. that meant The Saturn had to push more vertices and draw more pixels than what was actually needed.
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nkarafo
Member
Is there a place, like a forum or community where they post that kind of stuff?
I recently discovered that someone is porting Portal on the N64 and he pretty much completed all test chambers up to where you get the double portal gun. It's pretty wild:
I absolutely love ports and demakes like these. But i don't like how i just randomly discover them by chance, meaning i'm probably missing a lot.
I recently discovered that someone is porting Portal on the N64 and he pretty much completed all test chambers up to where you get the double portal gun. It's pretty wild:
I absolutely love ports and demakes like these. But i don't like how i just randomly discover them by chance, meaning i'm probably missing a lot.
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Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I think it's similar to a game like this on PlayStation. Folks just didn't attempt many games that require similar detail levels in full 3D back then. You aren't gonna put that much detail in a shooter like Syphon Filter or anything, the power will go elsewhere (like enemies, AI, bigger levels, etc.).
From Software wasn't exactly considered proficient at tech or even art back then, their games were crude and ugly but look how great these interiors look and how they have Shenmue level interactions with opening drawers, taking out items, etc. (since it's basically an old school adventure game but in full 3D). The characters look very good too and they're a HUGE upgrade from the first game (which has very nice environments as well but the character art is laughably crude, especially their textures which look MS Paint-like) but a different developer would probably do it much better too.
Granted Shenmue is probably running in higher resolution and doesn't have issues present in PS like dithering and polygon/texture warping. Which explains the low framerate, that's probably single digits in some parts. But again nobody would care for a slow adventure game that looks so good.
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Horseganador
Member
Saturn couldn't even match PSX and its GTE with 3 SH2 inside.
fart town usa
Gold Member
Such a shame too because there was a version of Doom for Saturn that utilized the slave-driver engine (If I remember correctly) but Carmack shut it down because he didn't like the look of it.
The Japanese version of Doom on Saturn is more smooth than the NA release but yea, it's still a rough port.
SirTerry-T
Member
Yeah but any coder worth their salt back then would have relished coding in assembly...sorted out the men from the boys!
cireza
Member
Maybe not the slave-driver engine (which was made by Lobotomy) but there definitely was a hardware renderer at some point that was actually trying to use the hardware as intended. How the decision to not continue with this was taken makes absolutely no sense.
Having played all versions of Doom, I really didn't see a noticeable gain with the Japanese version. Did you ?
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Dacvak
No one shall be brought before our LORD David Bowie without the true and secret knowledge of the Photoshop. For in that time, so shall He appear.
Tell me you don’t understand coding without telling me you don’t understand coding.
Shifty1897
Member
Consider me a little baby boy then.
German Hops
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief
Saturn version of Xenogears when?
Geometric-Crusher
Member
I think talking about Sega in the past tense is wasting energy. We should think about how to leverage a campaign for the Sega Saturn Mini instead
fart town usa
Gold Member
The Last Bronx on Saturn honestly looks stunning.
PD: Zwei is probably my favorite looking and overall favorite Saturn title. Everything about it is just amazing to me and the music is from the on board sound chip. It's so insanely good!
The "chorus" of this track gives me euphoria chills.
fart town usa
Gold Member
I only dabbled with the Japanese version a few months back but what I described is just what I heard on the Saturn Shiro discord or from a Sega Lord X video. Just assumed it was true because they're near autistic when it comes to the Saturn
. I think the improvement is minimal and mostly because the Japanese version released after NA so the developers had more time to fine tune the game.
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Scotty W
Member
Not a lot of people know, but the Saturn is actually 2 32x chips stuck together, as opposed to the MD&32x chips of the og 32x. The delusion of people.
cireza
Member
The Saturn has 2 SH2 like the 32x but at higher clock rates, 2 VDPs for visuals providing hardware capabilities while the 32X has only one VDP that can only push pixels on screen and everything has to be calculated with the SH2. The Saturn also has a Motorolla CPU (same family as MD) and a dedicated chip for mathematics calculations. It doesn't have the Z80 (which was inherited from the MS). Saturn also has a Yamaha processor for sound.
The Saturn being two 32X "chips stuck together" doesn't make sense to me.
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Team Andromeda
Member
The 32X SH-2's were lifted from the Saturn design the systems are completely different
The Saturn has totally different sound hardware, GPU's, I/O Ect
Scotty W
Member
False. Sega always upgraded from previous tech.
Master system = Game Gear.
Mega Drive was 2 Master System chips melded. 8+8=16 bit
Sega CD was a special cd chip enhancement of the MD.
32x was 2 MD chips melded.
Saturn was 2 MD chips melded plus the cd chip enhancement.
4 Meg Ram cart was actually made of repurposed Nomads
Dreamcast was 4 Saturns (8 chips consolidated into 1) with a special Windows enhancement.
Geometric-Crusher
Member
ignore the trolls
BlackTron
Member
Well now you'll be able to play MGS on it
cireza
Member
Yeah... Succeeding at being sarcastic requires people realizing that you are actually sarcastic.
cartman414
Member
Dreamcast = 4 Saturns = 4 x (2 32x) = 4 x 2 x (2 MD) = 4 x 2 x 2 x (2 MS) = 32 MS
Hmmm...
The Dreamcast is the Master System 32x!!!
Saber
Gold Member
Not trying to dunk on Saturn, but there are other ports and similar things that came from playstation, like Resident Evil, Castlevania, etc. So its not something impossible, not believable or anything. Of course there are differences, like the lack of actual transparency(mostly use mesh transparency on Saturn) and double pixel mode.
Krappadizzle
Member
I mean... It's probably harder to appreciate the fervor that it can drum up now if you hadn't participated in that generation in any real way. Going from 16-bit, to essentially having this bad ass and at the time what felt like "Movie Quality" presentation...there just wasn't anything like it really. It was like playing a bad ass spy movie and cheesy as all hell, but with some actual deep esoteric messages. Not always great, and if you aren't in the mood for it's specific kind of "je ne sais quoi" there's so many great offerings these days that it's easy to not fall into the excitement the series has a history with.
You're not wrong by any means, but I think there's a massive gulf in difference in presentation from RE1/Castlevania on Saturn and Metal Gear Solid on PS1. They are kind of on the same track but at massively different levels. I'd be interested in what would have had to been changed/cut to even get the game running acceptably on the hardware.
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