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[Polygonal_Sprite]

i just shed a single tear reading this.

And I hope they never change from this attitude. There are plenty of story focused Western games.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Very interesting article. It definitely reflects how I felt about gaming 15-20 years ago when it seemed like the distinction between west and east was much clearer. It feels now though that that line is much blurrier. Everybody is inspired by everyone. Everyone has access to everything. You have western devs making JRPGs, Japanese devs making traditionally "western" style action games, im not sure that distinction is as pronounced anymore.

 

[hemo memo]

Japanese game developers (and Nintendo in particular) are very wary about their games being played wrong. Hence the over-tutorializing throughout the last decade. They feel they know that the most fun is achieved in the game a certain way, in this case by getting a chance to play all the maps instead of just the most popular, or learning all the modes instead of just the most popular.

I would love to have at least one more map in rotation. But I definitely understand their intention is to provide the most fair and balanced experience to everyone playing.

But that's the opposite of what Nintendo did with Botw.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Very interesting article. It definitely reflects how I felt about gaming 15-20 years ago when it seemed like the distinction between west and east was much clearer. It feels now though that that line is much blurrier. Everybody is inspired by everyone. Everyone has access to everything. You have western devs making JRPGs, Japanese devs making traditionally "western" style action games, im not sure that distinction is as pronounced anymore.

I think there's no better example of this than Bloodborne. It's possibly the quintessential "best of both worlds" kind of game. Systems focused, mechanically driven, in a tantalizing universe full of mystery and complex lore.

And then you have games like Undertale, heavily inspired by Japanese games of old, but otherwise motivated by a distinct character-driven story where the mechanics themselves make up the text of the narrative.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

the capcom situation is strictly that, a capcom situation, not a west and japan thing.
Look at SE and Crystal dynamics for example.
Nice interview. Cool guy.

That was also during the misbegotten Gen 7 where the impetus was much less...helpful than it is now.

 

[Servbot24]

There are several Japanese approaches... I feel there's a lot more importance and focus given to game mechanics over world

...in the West, scope, visuals, and features are the main attraction.

This expresses why I tend to prefer Japanese games. Though I still enjoy Western games as well.

Although it doesn't apply to first person shooters.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

ITT: we finally get told why Japanese games are vastly superior compared to their western counterparts.

 

[Regiruler]

I read the entire interview and it never mentioned if he was a single player or multiplayer designer, which is important for my hot take.

The Konami mention was interesting. I wonder who he was referring to.

 

[webrunner]

japanese G is my extremely racist rapper name

 

[Ivan 3414]

There are people who think that Japanese game designers have begun adapting certain elements of Western game design, especially in open-world games like Metal Gear Solid V and Breath of the Wild.

I don’t think so. From the design meetings that I have at work, that’s not what I’m getting. I think, in three years on MGSV, I heard a Western game mentioned maybe once. That was on Ground Zeroes, and the discussion was about the circular enemy cone--when you get seen, how do you express that you’ve been seen by someone who is not displayed on the screen? If an enemy is watching you from the side and behind, how do we communicate this? At the time, Far Cry got mentioned.

When a design discussion takes place, you usually don’t refer to other developers’ games. You talk about your game, and in very specific contexts and situations. In Japan, the pride about the craft is very high. You almost never hear another game being mentioned, whether it is a Japanese game or a Western game, during any design discussions. That’s contrary to the West. When I was in the West, I heard about other games on a weekly or daily basis.

Seems very misinformed when Aonuma outright said he looked to Western games like Skyrim in research for Breath of the Wild.

If there's one element in game design Western developers have clear expertise in, it's open-world design. To suggest that Japanese aren't taking any inspiration from Western games when building an open world game, that seems downright arrogant to me.

 

[Regiruler]

How I read the headline:

"Rolling Stone: Nintendo Devs Working With Kojima on 'Splatoon 2: Rise of Japanese G'"

House of the Dead/Splatoon crossover is the one thing I didn't know I wanted (also apparently Kojima works at Sega).

 

[xzeldax3]

This a great article and touches upon some good points. Thanks for sharing!

 

[eyeball_kid]

I know that lots of people will post in this thread talking about why they strongly prefer one design theory over the other, but reading this article, I mostly come away being extremely grateful that so many of both these types of games are being made.

Such a varied landscape is precious.

My feeling is more that the two extremes show weaknesses in their respective approaches to game designs, and they could learn from each other without aping each other. While my heart is closer to the way the Japanese design games, Jordan's comments also explain why stories and characters in Japanese games are usually pretty awful. It's because they consider those things secondary, or worse, unimportant.

 

[tanooki27]

This is a very interesting quote too:



That's basically an explanation for why there are some of the strange restrictions in Splatoon, and probably other Nintendo games, but I think in a more broad sense this describes how Nintendo makes hardware too. The Switch was basically something that a lot of people didn't know they wanted. Many people thought they'd leave it docked 100% of the time but now play handheld a lot more.

It's an interesting theme I've seen with Nintendo and I wasn't aware it was reflective of Japanese society like that.

that is a great quote

 

[Screaming Meat]

Movies are the most popular form of entertainment. But they have almost nothing in common with games. If anything, the closest to games is the stage: plays, ballet, circus, dance, the Japanese kabuki. There’s a stage, and performers move in space and produce actions and reactions. The “camera,” so to speak, is fixed. We really have to start distinguishing the subject of a game from the nature of games.

Spot on.

 

[flintstryker]

Reading how Japanese game pitches are done explains why I tend to prefer their games.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Seems very misinformed when Aonuma outright said he looked to Western games like Skyrim in research for Breath of the Wild.

If there's one element in game design Western developers have clear expertise in, it's open-world design. To suggest that Japanese aren't taking any inspiration from Western games when building an open world game, that seems downright arrogant to me.

I would say that inspiration from other products doesn't necessarily mean they're wholesale adapting explicitly western game design into their product. While Aonuma has looked to other games for inspiration, it was likely Monolith Soft's expertise that likely saw the open world design through.

And as he said before, mentioning other games as instances of inspiration from a design aspect is probably not a thing in Japan. Just because Aonuma mentions looking to other western games in interviews doesn't mean he even mentions them during actual development.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Honestly, his perspective seems a little dated. FFXV obviously tried to be The Witcher 3 while BotW is "What if Skyrim had good gameplay mechanics and less jank."

Meanwhile, the western games that are doing well right now.

Destiny/The Division
Call of Duty/Battlefield
DotA 2/LoL
PUBG
GTA Online
Minecraft

Everyone in the West wants to make these games and these games are pulling in all the money for western games.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Honestly, his perspective seems a little dated. FFXV obviously tried to be The Witcher 3 while BotW is "What if Skyrim had good gameplay mechanics and less jank."

I've sort of heard that sentiment for Zelda but I never heard of that about FFXV.

 

[Neith]

Damn this dude has the insight and spitting the truth between western devs and Japanese devs.

Ehh no thanks. I like both and there are plenty of great western devs that beat the tar out of the eastern devs in some respects. It goes both ways. The idea that Platinum games has never made a bad game is completely ridiculous. They've made multiple bad games. Some of their budget games like Turtles are a disgrace to the name.

Reading how Japanese game pitches are done explains why I tend to prefer their games.

They would do well to start getting good Japanese writers to work on their games. Japanese games are falling way behind in competent storytelling, and that will never be good for the future of the medium or their own sales. They need to adapt better. It doesn't mean we need Witcher 3 from all of them, but they need to start writing competent storylines with engaging characters. Gameplay and story don't have to be this far apart.

 

[Snakeyes]

They would do well to start getting good Japanese writers to work on their games. Japanese games are falling way behind in competent storytelling, and that will never be good for the future of the medium or their own sales. They need to adapt better. It doesn't mean we need Witcher 3 from all of them, but they need to start writing competent storylines with engaging characters. Gameplay and story don't have to be this far apart.

If you made a list of the top narratives in gaming, at least half (and I'm being incredibly generous to Western developers here) would be from Japanese games.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

The idea that Platinum games has never made a bad game is completely ridiculous. They've made multiple bad games. Some of their budget games like Turtles are a disgrace to the name

No, he said Kamiya himself has never actually helmed a bad game in his career. That said the example you used was one of the times Platinum was beholdened to the design senses of a Western company (Activision) anyways, so it sort of proved his other point.

 

[Hot Coldman]

The commentary on Splatoon 2's restrictions is very interesting. Like, the natural impulse is to dismiss that sort of thinking as smug and arrogant, but when you think about it, the school of thought only betrays how much care was to put into something.

Personally I enjoy Splatoon 2's map rotation. Imagine if CoD had done that back in the days when Nuketown was every other match.

 

[James Scott]

Ehh no thanks. I like both and there are plenty of great western devs that beat the tar out of the eastern devs in some respects. It goes both ways. The idea that Platinum games has never made a bad game is completely ridiculous. They've made multiple bad games. Some of their budget games like Turtles are a disgrace to the name.



They would do well to start getting good Japanese writers to work on their games. Japanese games are falling way behind in competent storytelling, and that will never be good for the future of the medium or their own sales. They need to adapt better. It doesn't mean we need Witcher 3 from all of them, but they need to start writing competent storylines with engaging characters. Gameplay and story don't have to be this far apart.

Kamiya=/=Platinum Games
Kamiya has never made a bad game

Some budget/licensed games feeling like budget licensed games isn't entirely shocking.

 

[Squishy3]

the capcom situation is strictly that, a capcom situation, not a west and japan thing.

I think you're not really understanding what Capcom really went through last gen. They chased really hard after that Western audience, and it completely backfired on them.

They saw really good worldwide success at the start of the gen, with Dead Rising, Lost Planet and Devil May Cry 4, Street Fighter 4 and Resident Evil 5, and had some good downloadable offerings too with stuff like Age of Booty and Bionic Commando Rearmed, Megaman 9, etc. Not to mention how amazing MT Framework was, and they're still using it.

But then the Westernization of Capcom starts, with Bionic Commando 2009, which bombs spectacularly, Dead Rising 2 worked out well considering Bluecastle ended up becoming Capcom Vancouver and still makes games. Lost Planet 2 underperforms, a follow up to DMC4 is nowhere to be seen, Dark Void comes out, and pretty much no major releases from Capcom proper aside from SF4 revisions until 2012 when Dragon's Dogma and Resident Evil 6 comes out, followed by DmC Devil May Cry, the Dark Arisen expansion for Dragon's Dogma, Lost Planet 3 and Remember Me.

Capcom was positioned really well at the start of the generation and absolutely squandered a lot of the potential they had by chasing the Western market so hard.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

They would do well to start getting good Japanese writers to work on their games. Japanese games are falling way behind in competent storytelling, and that will never be good for the future of the medium or their own sales. They need to adapt better. It doesn't mean we need Witcher 3 from all of them, but they need to start writing competent storylines with engaging characters. Gameplay and story don't have to be this far apart.

I believe this as well. It really doesn't take much. Nobody needs Donkey Kong to be Uncharted or Zelda to be Witcher. But strong context surrounding strong mechanics can make for a much more memorable game. If their characterization was as strong as their character design, the East would be killing it in this department. I just wish these characters had more to do other than go through the motions.

I view Tetris as the basis for measuring mechanically-minded games. Tetris obviously has no story, no characters, and the addition of either would not make Tetris a better experience. Part of the beauty of Tetris is that it is utterly without distraction. Tetris needs no context.

But what would Bloodborne be without Yharnam and The Hunt to give meaning to its inputs? Stripped of all its story, characters, and lore, would Bloodborne function as well as Tetris? I don't think anybody would say yes.

So obviously it is good to be considerate where story is grafted, but sometimes - for me at least - mechanics are not enough.

 

[James Scott]

I think the recent "return" of Japanese games is due to most not trying to chase after cutting edge tech since they can't compete with with the west in that regard, but they can out do most in terms of gameplay.
Last gen Capcom and SE were trying to compete against the likes of EA and it resulted in some mixed results.
Nier, Zelda, and Persona all look like they have roots in last gen, but they're seen as some of the best releases in the year.
FFXV is probably the most recent example of Japan still trying to compete and it's kind of awful because of it

As for storytelling, japan will likely make games for japan first meaning that localization will always have an impact on the performance of the characters on top of japanese standards being different from western. Unless it's text based or the character's use portraits to talk, it'll suffer even slightly like anime dubs.
Better to focus on other things and try to deliver something good across the board.

 

[Infinite]

I believe this as well. It really doesn't take much. Nobody needs Donkey Kong to be Uncharted or Zelda to be Witcher. But strong context surrounding strong mechanics can make for a much more memorable game. If their characterization was as strong as their character design, the East would be killing it in this department. I just wish these characters had more to do other than go through the motions.

I view Tetris as the basis for measuring mechanically-minded games. Tetris obviously has no story, no characters, and the addition of either would not make Tetris a better experience. Part of the beauty of Tetris is that it is utterly without distraction. Tetris needs no context.

But what would Bloodborne be without Yharnam and The Hunt to give meaning to its inputs? Stripped of all its story, characters, and lore, would Bloodborne function as well as Tetris? I don't think anybody would say yes.

So obviously it is good to be considerate where story is grafted, but sometimes - for me at least - mechanics are not enough.

Japanese games do that though and do it well compared to western devs in my opinion.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Japanese games do that though and do it well compared to western devs in my opinion.

Well, I used a Japanese game as an example.

And threads like these are sort of misguided because they rely on generalizations and trends placed in opposition to one another. You will always have examples to the contrary of the trend because that's just what they are: trends. They are not a totality.

Games like Bloodborne and Nier: Automata provide good story content to supplement its mechanics. Both of these are Japanese games.

But when it comes to regional philosophy, I think we can agree that western games are more likely to rely on narrative support than not and Japan is the other way around.

It doesn't mean they both don't do it well. It's just a matter of priority.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The commentary on Splatoon 2's restrictions is very interesting. Like, the natural impulse is to dismiss that sort of thinking as smug and arrogant, but when you think about it, the school of thought only betrays how much care was to put into something.

Personally I enjoy Splatoon 2's map rotation. Imagine if CoD had done that back in the days when Nuketown was every other match.

The game could just randomly pick out of all of the maps.

The two map stuff is dumb and makes a lot of matches in a short period of time repetitive, it's definitely Splatoon's worst element.

 

[FinalAres]

This is a very interesting quote too:



That's basically an explanation for why there are some of the strange restrictions in Splatoon, and probably other Nintendo games, but I think in a more broad sense this describes how Nintendo makes hardware too. The Switch was basically something that a lot of people didn't know they wanted. Many people thought they'd leave it docked 100% of the time but now play handheld a lot more.

It's an interesting theme I've seen with Nintendo and I wasn't aware it was reflective of Japanese society like that.

I wish FFXV had taken this approach instead of being massively affected by focus groups. Not because of the final product, because of the hideous effect it had on the development. If they'd stuck to their creative vision there would have been less wasted time, and the game would have ended up mote polished.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I've sort of heard that sentiment for Zelda but I never heard of that about FFXV.

The game really wants that open world but with a narrative structure and Tabata spent a good chunk of 2015 playing The Witcher 3.

http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2016..._team_played_a_lot_of_the_witcher_3_last_year

 

[Majukun]

and that's why japan is the best

 

[AzaK]

That part about knowing what people don't know what they want is hilarious.

I guess the people who think that the developer's intent must be preserved at all times should have no problem with this mindset. 🌞

They were basically taking the notion of ‘we will be creative to excite you’. And turning it into ‘we’ll do what the hell we want and you better like it’

Sums up Nintendo’s hardware, online and general feature set of there consoles.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

A level designer of Metal Gear Solid saying that Japan cares less about story in their pitches is a little amusing though.

But it shows how MGS5 was so completely different from the first four (since he only worked on MGS5 it seems).

 

[jett]

I don't even remotely believe his insinuation that Nintendo and KojiPro developed their respective open world games in a vacuum.

Amaro sounds like he got a serious hard-on for all things Japan.

 

[HStallion]

They would do well to start getting good Japanese writers to work on their games. Japanese games are falling way behind in competent storytelling, and that will never be good for the future of the medium or their own sales. They need to adapt better. It doesn't mean we need Witcher 3 from all of them, but they need to start writing competent storylines with engaging characters. Gameplay and story don't have to be this far apart.

I believe this as well. It really doesn't take much. Nobody needs Donkey Kong to be Uncharted or Zelda to be Witcher. But strong context surrounding strong mechanics can make for a much more memorable game. If their characterization was as strong as their character design, the East would be killing it in this department. I just wish these characters had more to do other than go through the motions.

I view Tetris as the basis for measuring mechanically-minded games. Tetris obviously has no story, no characters, and the addition of either would not make Tetris a better experience. Part of the beauty of Tetris is that it is utterly without distraction. Tetris needs no context.

But what would Bloodborne be without Yharnam and The Hunt to give meaning to its inputs? Stripped of all its story, characters, and lore, would Bloodborne function as well as Tetris? I don't think anybody would say yes.

So obviously it is good to be considerate where story is grafted, but sometimes - for me at least - mechanics are not enough.

We got games like The Last Guardian and Nier Automata in the last year. It's not like they don't have competent writers and narrative creators making games in Japan. It's just that their focus seems to often lie in the realm of gameplay mechanics and systems.

 

[jett]

So I would get this sentiment if we were talking about AAA Western games from 2008-2012, but it's hard to imagine many major studios going about things this way in 2017.

Right, his insight there is dated and outright invalid in this day and age.

 

[kpaadet]

His opinion would have been spot on if we still wrote 2008.

 

[NYR94]

Really good read, thanks for posting. Amaro is an interesting dude, always learn something about game design from reading his quotes.

 

[Nbz]

If you made a list of the top narratives in gaming, at least half (and I'm being incredibly generous to Western developers here) would be from Japanese games.

Can you give me this list, because I'm really struggling to find Japanese games that have superior narratives

 

[HStallion]

Can you give me this list, because I'm really struggling to find Japanese games that have superior narratives

Off the top of my head anything written by Matsuno be it Final Fantasy Tactics or Vagrant Story.

 

[big_erk]

I've always thought this when people winge about Splatoon or not being able to customize things in Mario Kart. You wouldn't go in a Gordon Ramsey restaurant and ask for a bottle of ketchup with your lobster.

That's disgusting. Everyone knows hot sauce goes on lobster.

 

[BocoDragon]

I guess I'm not alone in thinking his opinion came straight out of 2008.

I'm all against that era's phenomenon of Japanese games trying to "be western".... but Japanese devs working with western devs? That's a successful venture. Between Capcom Vancouver, Next Level Games, Retro Studios, Rare in the 90s, etc, there have been a lot of Japanese/American collaborative classics.

He sounds a bit like a GAF weeaboo from a decade ago... not that I can't relate, mind you.

 

[wild wild rice]

i just shed a single tear reading this.

I know...it's beautiful....

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I guess I'm not alone in thinking his opinion came straight out of 2008.

I'm all against that era's phenomenon of Japanese games trying to "be western".... but Japanese devs working with western devs? That's a successful venture. Between Capcom Vancouver, Next Level Games, Retro Studios, Rare in the 90s, etc, there have been a lot of Japanese/American collaborative classics.

He sounds a bit like a GAF weeaboo from a decade ago... not that I can't relate, mind you.

The companies you named have all been with Nintendo and their more adaptable and classic IPs with the sole outlier having just released Dead Rising 4.

 

[Cuningas de Häme]

Funny how so many are outright saying that the guy is wrong, when he's the one who actually works in Japan as a Western developer.

Maybe he knows what they are doing there, you know?

And LOL at that one guy who said that GTA V is all about the gameplay. That game is annoying to play, like every GTA. GTA is all about the themepark where you can go into a murder spree. It has mediocre story, really clunky gameplay, everything in it is just mediocre. GTA (series as a whole) is a prime example of how a game can be more than the sum of it's parts.

BotW is very carefully crafted to guide the player, it is not just aimless wandering without any guidance. Nintendo just has managed to guide player so slyly that it feels like you are free to do anything. And it's about time, there was too much blatant handholding before. I understand why, but it was so boring.

They think differently about open world games in Japan (or at least Nintendo). Was it Miyamoto who spoke about those mini gardens and how they liken open world games to them? That was a really neat exchange too.


I knew that this French guy would ruffle some feathers, he is not holding back at all. Refreshing to hear that kind of speech.


I am happy to say that I've always thought similarly about differences in Japan and West. Of course it is a stereotype, but stereotypes become stereotypes for a reason.


It would be awesome to gather a supergroup of gamedevs from all over the world and let them loose. Western storytelling and grand lines, Japanese attentino to details and gameplay, Slavic melancholy and German soul (jank, if you will)... Add some quirky Finnish humour and Swedish tech minds, and something from the all the other notable devs.

Would be pretty great.

 

[BocoDragon]

The companies you named have all been with Nintendo and their more adaptable and classic IPs with the sole outlier having just released Dead Rising 4.

So? There are plenty of more examples where that came from. How about the Eidos half of Square Enix, Mercury Steam, or even any Western Sony first party game which would technically be a Japanese company funding a western developer.

The guy is talking about Japanese/Western collaboration like it doesn't happen all the time and often turns out great.

 

[Yukinari]

The root of the problem.

Meanwhile i tried to play ranked at like 5AM and couldnt find a match twice.

Then when you do get in a match its the same map 3 times in a row.

 

[added_time]

This is one of the best video game interviews I've read and it's from Rolling Stone?!