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[Audioboxer]

Four members of a child sex grooming gang have lost a legal battle to maintain British citizenship.

Shabir Ahmed, Adil Khan, Abdul Rauf and Abdul Aziz, all from Rochdale, challenged a government move that could pave the way for them to be deported to Pakistan.

Ringleader Ahmed, 63, previously claimed his convictions were a conspiracy to "scapegoat" Muslims.

Rochdale's MP called for the men to now be deported "as soon as possible".

Simon Danczuk said: "We welcome many people coming to the UK to contribute, but if they break the law they should lose their right to live here.

"Foreign-born criminals should not be able to hide behind human rights laws to avoid deportation."

All the men are of Pakistani nationality who acquired British citizenship by naturalisation.

The case centred on a proposal by then Home Secretary Theresa May to deprive them of British citizenship on the grounds that it would be "conducive to the public good".

More @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38909352

This was a high-profile case back in 2012 . Like Rotherham this was another situation where the police failed

On 13 March 2015, Greater Manchester Police apologised for its failure to investigate child sexual exploitation allegations more thoroughly between 2008 and 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_child_sex_abuse_ring

I seen this brought up again tonight on the BBC news. Considering the debates on GAF about deportation I think this is a valid case to study for the merits of terrible people losing citizenship and being sent back to where they emigrated from. More so if it is not currently a war zone.

 

[Auctopus]

make sure the door hits you on the way out

 

[Glix]

More @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38909352

This was a high-profile case back in 2012 . Like Rotherham this was another situation where the police failed



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_child_sex_abuse_ring

I seen this brought up again tonight on the BBC news. Considering the debates on GAF about deportation I think this is a valid case to study for the merits of terrible people losing citizenship and being sent back to where they emigrated from. More so if it is not currently a war zone.

I don't think this is an issue for even the most lefty of us...

but, like everything conservatives want it is SUCH a slippery slope. It will probably lead to targeting and baseless accusations so we can get rid of good people.

 

[Septic360]

They'll be executed back home I imagine. Can't say I sympathise at all

 

[Shmuppers]

I don't think this is an issue for even the most lefty of us...

but, like everything conservatives want it is SUCH a slippery slope. It will probably lead to targeting and baseless accusations so we can get rid of good people.

Certainly have to keep this in mind.

That being said, these are the people that are sent to the deepest, dankest corners of hell

 

[Carl2291]

Good.

 

[TipsyArchmage]

They'll be executed back home I imagine. Can't say I sympathise at all

Good

 

[Triggerhappytel]

make sure the door hits you on the way out

Wrap it up guys, we're done here.

 

[GeordieMark]

That being said, these are the people that are sent to the deepest, dankest corners of hell

But they are already in Rochdale?

Joking aside, good. They certainly won't be missed and they deserve whatever's coming to them.

 

[Audioboxer]

I don't think this is an issue for even the most lefty of us...

but, like everything conservatives want it is SUCH a slippery slope. It will probably lead to targeting and baseless accusations so we can get rid of good people.

Well, the big difference here is being legally convicted after a trial. It's not just an assumption. Innocence until proven guilty is important, but we're passed that stage.

The fate of some of the others

Mohammed Sajid, 35, of Jephys Street, Rochdale, also convicted of one count of rape, sexual activity with a girl under 16 and trafficking for sexual exploitation, was jailed for 12 years.

He will be deported back to Pakistan following the conclusion of his sentence.

Hamid Safi, 22, of no fixed address, was also convicted of trafficking girls for the purposes of sexual exploitation and sentenced to four years.

He sneaked into the UK on a lorry in 2008 and claimed asylum. He will be deported to Afghanistan at the end of his sentence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003

I think the reason this is making news is these 4 tried to appeal any attempt to have them deported. As usual, there was an attempt to hide behind the remark the police "fear"

Ringleader Ahmed, 63, previously claimed his convictions were a conspiracy to "scapegoat" Muslims.

He said he was convicted by "11 white jurors" and said: "It's become fashionable to blame everything on Muslims these days."

When you are convicted and there is evidence, it's not a scapegoat. Hence why deportation should be a valid option when there is a conviction and it is a heinous crime.

 

[Moosichu]

I don't care about these individuals at all, but, I don't believe citizenship should be something that is removable. They are British citizens and should be dealt with appropriately in the British justice system. They should be sentenced for life here.

Dual Nationals shouldn't be second class citizens. There should be protections for people, even for the worst of crimes, because otherwise the justice system can be abused.

Spoiler

Otherwise me might find ourselves in a world where British citizens could get deported to Australia for stealing some bread.

 

[Glix]

Well, the big difference here is being legally convicted after a trial. It's not just an assumption. Innocence until proven guilty is important, but we're passed that stage.

I agree.

Here in the US however, both our law enforcement and judicial systems have proven to us over and over and over that they will circumvent the rights of minorities to stock the municipalities coffers or funnel them into our jail (slavery) system. This would just give the racists in those organizations additional motivation to "fast track" their convictions.

 

[Mr-Joker]

Ringleader Ahmed, 63, previously claimed his convictions were a conspiracy to "scapegoat" Muslims.

He needs to fuck off with that statement as he has given racist people ammo that they use as their shitty argument that all Muslim are pedo and terrorist.

 

[Abelard]

Justice has been delivered.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Does the UK recognize dual citizenship?

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

The leader is 63, lock him up and let him die behind bars.

The fewer powers we give to Theresa May and this government the better, I dread to think what they'll start doing once this kind of thing becomes acceptable. All this does is make naturalised Brits second-class citizens, commit a crime and your citizenship is revoked. If you were born here and commit the same crime, don't worry you're still a Brit.

It's fucking bullshit.

I don't care about these individuals at all, but, I don't believe citizenship should be something that is removable. They are British citizens and should be dealt with appropriately in the British justice system. They should be sentenced for life here.

Dual Nationals shouldn't be second class citizens. There should be protections for people, even for the worst of crimes, because otherwise the justice system can be abused.

Spoiler

Otherwise me might find ourselves in a world where British citizens could get deported to Australia for stealing some bread.

Yup. If you're British, you're British.

 

[Kthulhu]

I don't care about these individuals at all, but, I don't believe citizenship should be something that is removable. They are British citizens and should be dealt with appropriately in the British justice system. They should be sentenced for life here.

Dual Nationals shouldn't be second class citizens. There should be protections for people, even for the worst of crimes, because otherwise the justice system can be abused.

Spoiler

Otherwise me might find ourselves in a world where British citizens could get deported to Australia for stealing some bread.

I am of the same sentiment. They're citizens, they should be punished in the UK.

They'll be executed back home I imagine. Can't say I sympathise at all

That's horrible.

I thought you English were above capital punishment.

 

[Morat]

He needs to fuck off with that statement as he has given racist people ammo that they use as their shitty argument that all Muslim are pedo and terrorist.

I mean he clearly doesn't give a shit, given the crimes he has committed.

 

[Audioboxer]

I agree.

Here in the US however, both our law enforcement and judicial systems have proven to us over and over and over that they will circumvent the rights of minorities to stock the municipalities coffers or funnel them into our jail (slavery) system. This would just give the racists in those organizations additional motivation to "fast track" their convictions.

I don't doubt there is many problems in America, but I'd like to think the justice system has very few completely wrongful convictions. Specifically when we talk about child rape/abuse/violence. I mean, this is really at the high end of the morally twisted scale when giving thoughts to deportation. I am not suggesting people who steal, get caught with some personal drugs (war on drugs is a joke) or anything else minor instantly get ramped to "deportation" after being convicted.

However, a child sex ring/trafficking, I mean, that is just disgusting. Just so you know where I am coming from when I consider the idea of deportation.

 

[Linkura]

I don't care about these individuals at all, but, I don't believe citizenship should be something that is removable. They are British citizens and should be dealt with appropriately in the British justice system. They should be sentenced for life here.

Dual Nationals shouldn't be second class citizens. There should be protections for people, even for the worst of crimes, because otherwise the justice system can be abused.
[/SPOILER]

This. Would have zero problems with them being deported if they weren't citizens.

 

[Moosichu]

He needs to fuck off with that statement as he has given racist people ammo that they use as their shitty argument that all Muslim are pedo and terrorist.

Yeah, he does. It sucks how there are almost 3 million Muslims in the country, and yet the act of these heinous people drag them all through the mud with arguments like this. It's also bad that people will happily lump such a large and diverse group together when a few do despicable things, yet will happily brush off MPs some of which who have done stuff just as bad, such as Cyril Smith.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I don't care about these individuals at all, but, I don't believe citizenship should be something that is removable. They are British citizens and should be dealt with appropriately in the British justice system. They should be sentenced for life here.

Dual Nationals shouldn't be second class citizens. There should be protections for people, even for the worst of crimes, because otherwise the justice system can be abused.

Spoiler

Otherwise me might find ourselves in a world where British citizens could get deported to Australia for stealing some bread.

Dual nationals have the option of surrendering their first citizenship. It's their choice.

Yup. If you're British, you're British.

If you're British, you're British.

If you're British AND Pakistani, you're British AND Pakistani.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Some of them were allowed to remain apparently. Why is that?

Also I don't think revoking citizenships should be made commonplace at all in the justice system in general. It should only be done in the most extreme of circumstances, like for these perpetrators here.

In general citizenship is a right that you earn, and is a sign that you've joined the national 'family' so to speak, so in general you should treat dual citizens like any other citizen.

In this particular case it's absolutely justified, but I'm concerned that this could be done to other less severe and less dangerous offenders as well.

 

[Madness]

I don't care about these individuals at all, but, I don't believe citizenship should be something that is removable. They are British citizens and should be dealt with appropriately in the British justice system. They should be sentenced for life here.

Dual Nationals shouldn't be second class citizens. There should be protections for people, even for the worst of crimes, because otherwise the justice system can be abused.

Spoiler

Otherwise me might find ourselves in a world where British citizens could get deported to Australia for stealing some bread.

Slippery slope argument fails until that actually happens. In the meantime, let the UK be rid of a gang of rapists who targeted numerous young girls. Also, read up on naturalization. You promise to abide by the laws of the country you are wanting citizenship for, these people didn't.

In Canada, we have long deported naturalized citizens back to their home countries for violent or major crimes ie. Homicides, violent sexual assault. It makes ZERO sense to keep them here when they were not refugees fleeing persecution and are going to be a harm to the citizens of this country. Why should taxpayers spend 50-100k a year housing and feeding them either?

 

[Zelias]

The leader is 63, lock him up and let him die behind bars.

The fewer powers we give to Theresa May and this government the better, I dread to think what they'll start doing once this kind of thing becomes acceptable. All this does is make naturalised Brits second-class citizens, commit a crime and your citizenship is revoked. If you were born here and commit the same crime, don't worry you're still a Brit.

It's fucking bullshit.

My thoughts exactly. These guys are pond scum, but they're our problem and our justice system should be able to handle them.

It's difficult to feel sympathy for them though if they do get sent back though.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Slippery slope argument fails until that actually happens. In the meantime, let the UK be rid of a gang of rapists who targeted numerous young girls. Also, read up on naturalization. You promise to abide by the laws of the country you are wanting citizenship for, these people didn't.

In Canada, we have long deported naturalized citizens back to their home countries for violent or major crimes ie. Homicides, violent sexual assault. It makes ZERO sense to keep them here when they were not refugees fleeing persecution and are going to be a harm to the citizens of this country. Why should taxpayers spend 50-100k a year housing and feeding them either?

Because they're Canadian? If you won't treat Canadian citizens like they're Canadian then don't give them citizenship in the first place.

 

[Audioboxer]

Some of them were allowed to remain apparently. Why is that?

Also I don't think revoking citizenships should be made commonplace at all in the justice system in general. It should only be done in the most extreme of circumstances, like for these perpetrators here.

In general citizenship is a right that you earn, and is a sign that you've joined the national 'family' so to speak, so in general you should treat dual citizens like any other citizen.

In this particular case it's absolutely justified, but I'm concerned that this could be done to other less severe and less dangerous offenders as well.

I don't have enough legal knowledge, but I'm going to assume it's based on severity of their crimes/involvement. Their appeals to EU human rights laws have been rejected

Handing down the judgment on Thursday, Mr Justice McCloskey, described the men's crimes as "shocking, brutal and repulsive".

He dismissed five different grounds of appeal, including an argument by three of the men that the government had failed in a duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of their children.

The ruling also dismissed a complaint of a "disproportionate interference" with the men's rights as EU citizens and rejected claims concerning human rights laws.

It looks like their lawyers have been failing as well though ~ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38882309

Mr Justice McCloskey, president of the Immigration and Asylum Chamber, said the men's barristers and solicitors had failed to submit the necessary papers to the court and had repeatedly asked for adjournments.

He said: "The Upper Tribunal has been treated with sustained and marked disrespect. The conduct of these appeals has been cavalier and unprofessional. The rule of law has been weakened in consequence."

The judge, who is expected to deliver his decision on the men's appeal against deportation this month, also criticised government lawyers representing the Home Secretary after they produced "only a skeleton argument" at the "11th hour".
He has urged government legal officials to mount an investigation into such cases.

Rochdale MP Simon Danczuk said: "The perpetrators of these crimes are trying to avoid languishing in a Pakistani jail, which is where they should be. The law is far too easy to manipulate in this area."

edit: On a related note, being someone in law with the name Justice is just... perfect lol.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Slippery slope argument fails until that actually happens. In the meantime, let the UK be rid of a gang of rapists who targeted numerous young girls. Also, read up on naturalization. You promise to abide by the laws of the country you are wanting citizenship for, these people didn't.

In Canada, we have long deported naturalized citizens back to their home countries for violent or major crimes ie. Homicides, violent sexual assault. It makes ZERO sense to keep them here when they were not refugees fleeing persecution and are going to be a harm to the citizens of this country. Why should taxpayers spend 50-100k a year housing and feeding them either?

They are citizens as well. They have the right to be Canadian. They are a long time part of the 'national family' and should be treated like any other citizen. Either incarcerate them and attempt to rehabilitate them or keep them in prison for life if they're murderers or are too much of a danger. There should be serious, serious limits on revoking citizenship. It should only be possible with the worst of the worst cases, and only used very, very few times.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

edit: On a related note, being someone in law with the name Justice is just... perfect lol.

lol that's not his first name! That's just how you address some judges.

 

[Morat]

My thoughts exactly. These guys are pond scum, but they're our problem and our justice system should be able to handle them.

It's difficult to feel sympathy for them though if they do get sent back though.

Pretty much my thoughts as well. The committed these vile crimes in the UK. However, as you say, sympathy nah ah.

 

[DBT85]

Off you fuck.

 

[Audioboxer]

They are citizens as well. They have the right to be Canadian. They are a long time part of the 'national family' and should be treated like any other citizen. Either incarcerate them and attempt to rehabilitate them or keep them in prison for life if they're murderers or are too much of a danger. There should be serious, serious limits on revoking citizenship. It should only be possible with the worst of the worst cases, and only used very, very few times.

Well legally they seem to be able to be revoked

Section 4 of the British Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002[75] gave power to the Home Secretary to ‘deprive a person of a citizenship status if the Secretary of State is satisfied that the person has done anything seriously prejudicial to the vital interests' of the United Kingdom etc., except in the case where such might render the person stateless.[76]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization

Document ~ http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/41

Although this is me outside of my depth of knowledge and relying on Wiki. This really is a terrible premeditated crime ring.

lol that's not his first name! That's just how you address some judges.

*critical hit to Audioboxer's intelligence*
*Audioboxer fails hard*

 

[Khaz]

Some binationals hate in this thread

 

[Glix]

I don't doubt there is many problems in America, but I'd like to think the justice system has very few completely wrongful convictions. Specifically when we talk about child rape/abuse/violence. I mean, this is really at the high end of the morally twisted scale when giving thoughts to deportation. I am not suggesting people who steal, get caught with some personal drugs (war on drugs is a joke) or anything else minor instantly get ramped to "deportation" after being convicted.

However, a child sex ring/trafficking, I mean, that is just disgusting. Just so you know where I am coming from when I consider the idea of deportation.

We have executed innocent people an astonishing number of times.

 

[daviyoung]

what if Pakistan doesn't want them?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

There should be serious, serious limits on revoking citizenship. It should only be possible with the worst of the worst cases, and only used very, very few times.

And horrendous murder or sexually trafficking children isnt a worst of the worst case?

Fuck this scum. They came to the UK and failed to abide by their laws. Send them back from where they came if theyre going to traffick children.

 

[Usobuko]

Good riddance.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

And horrendous murder or sexually trafficking children isnt a worst of the worst case?

Fuck this scum. They came to the UK and failed to abide by their laws. Send them back from where they came if theyre going to traffick children.

I did say that it's justified in this case.

Some of them were allowed to remain apparently. Why is that?

Also I don't think revoking citizenships should be made commonplace at all in the justice system in general. It should only be done in the most extreme of circumstances, like for these perpetrators here.

In general citizenship is a right that you earn, and is a sign that you've joined the national 'family' so to speak, so in general you should treat dual citizens like any other citizen.

In this particular case it's absolutely justified, but I'm concerned that this could be done to other less severe and less dangerous offenders as well.

 

[dark_chris]

what if Pakistan doesn't want them?

Toss them in a volcano?

 

[Audioboxer]

We have executed innocent people an astonishing number of times.

I'm not one for capital punishment for what it is worth. That's kind of veering outside the realms of deportation as well. As long as we aren't deporting to a war zone for our moral obligation. In those cases I'd agree allow someone to stay until their homeland isn't embroiled in a war, however long that takes.

On a personal note, I think I've made it quite clear I don't entertain the idea of deportation for petty/minor crimes. This topic though is about a sex trafficking/rape ring, I don't know how much more serious you can get.

 

[GeordieMark]

Some binationals hate in this thread

Where?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I did say that it's justified in this case.

Touche, but I dont think anyone is saying to revoke citizenships of naturalized petty offenders or everything.

People being baffled that in this case theyre revoking citizenship of these monsters is mystifying to me.

 

[DBT85]

Touche, but I dont think anyone is saying to revoke citizenships of naturalized petty offenders or everything.

People being baffled that in this case theyre revoking citizenship of these monsters is mystifying to me.

Quite.

You came over, great, and got citizenship, fantastic. Welcome to Britain, enjoy the spag bol, kebabs, curry houses, etc.

Oh you trafficked children? Yeah bye.

 

[KZObsessed]

Disgusting pieces of shit. Child rapists or anyone involved in child rape should get an automatic life sentence with no chance of release.

It's shocking just how many different towns/cities this has happened in. Absolutely disgusting this has been allowed to happen.

 

[Khaz]

People being baffled that in this case theyre revoking citizenship of these monsters is mystifying to me.

Oh it's ok then, they're monsters.

If they were British-only monsters, no one would advocate them to have their nationality revoked and sent abroad.

Double standards are ok when the outrage is high enough.

 

[Visualante2]

They'll be executed back home I imagine. Can't say I sympathise at all

UK has an obligation to ensure that anyone deported will not be subject to anything like that. If Pakistan were to execute that would jeapordize any extradition treaties they have with other nations.

 

[robertsan21]

cast these assholes out of the country.

I wish they did this to EVERY immigrant that broke the law while in our country for shelter from their war torn home countries.
If you break the law, your out and sent back home no matter if its war or not.

 

[Audioboxer]

Oh it's ok then, they're monsters.

If they were British-only monsters, no one would advocate them to have their nationality revoked and sent abroad.

Double standards are ok when the outrage is high enough.

As above, that can't legally happen

Section 4 of the British Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002[75] gave power to the Home Secretary to ‘deprive a person of a citizenship status if the Secretary of State is satisfied that the person has done anything seriously prejudicial to the vital interests' of the United Kingdom etc., except in the case where such might render the person stateless.[76]

In international law, statelessness is the lack of citizenship. A stateless person is someone who is "not considered as a national by any state under the operation of its law".[2] Some stateless persons are also refugees. However, not all refugees are stateless, and many persons who are stateless have never crossed an international border.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness

Hence why you have scenarios in some European countries where they legally cannot deport someone, even for terrible crimes.

If something can legally be done though, why isn't it a right for a country to protect its citizens, and as cold as this may sound, protect it's tax payers money (it costs a fair bit of money to house someone in jail for life)?

 

[Khaz]

cast these assholes out of the country.

I wish they did this to EVERY immigrant that broke the law while in our country for shelter from their war torn home countries.
If you break the law, your out and sent back home no matter if its war or not.

What about the natives who break the law? Why would they get the preferential treatment? Is their crime less punishable because they're our blood?

 

[Betty]

If they were British-only monsters, no one would advocate them to have their nationality revoked and sent abroad.

Actually plenty would, and plenty would also be in favour of them being executed, and publicly to boot.

But for now there's too much legal red tape for any of that to happen to British nationals so we'll have to make do with small victories like this.