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[Superflat]

Do you think the like six terrible puzzles in the game were well designed? Not a one even represented a shadow of the amazing puzzles that were in the old TR games. That was extremely disappointing as well to me.

And the platforming. Why design a game with solid platforming mechanics without a smooth difficulty curve throughout the game which gradually builds up the challenge of platforming until you have amazing skill-based balancing acts? If you never want players to die, and thus never face any tensions during these parts, why even have them at all? They're just elaborate sight seeing mechanics after that

This constant theme was my biggest issue with TR. The shooting mechanics are solid, platforming mechanics are solid (if not a tad too floaty); And they proceeded to make the most mundane and brainless scenarios imaginable. Platforming and combat were like oil and water. Every platforming jump was insultingly easy and the only neat thing they did with the ice pick only showed a hint of challenge potential near the end.

Combat scenarios came down to walking down a narrow ravine, funneling enemies down to you in the most boring straight-forward way possible. Walking into tombs that are hilariously short and solved with physics puzzles that have the most illogically designed rooms I've ever seen.

I did enjoy the explosions and visuals because it appeals to the action junkie in me, but I never felt the need to play TR again after I finished, and that's kind of rare for me.

TR did a good job at highlighting the uneasiness of the unknown and playing up the horror angle early on before you get a gun in your hands. They just need to figure out how to make actually risky scenarios and keep the fear of the unknown as the central tone.

 

[Htown]

Similar to Cara Ellison's post, I really like this analysis of what the Tomb Raider reboot gets wrong by Jeremy Parish.

Yep, this is accurate.

I would also like to add, as I always do, that the game fails even on its own terms, and not even as a "Tomb Raider" game, by promising a survival experience that it does not deliver.

 

[cameron]

They have the gameplay direction locked down. I don't think that'll change. There was very little criticism from most "professional" reviews. A few asked for more tombs, so I bet we'll see more of that as optional content.

2. Lara Croft is a tomb raider. She probably works alone. So keep her alone. The original painted her as a bachelorette. There’s no way she gives two shits about coming home to a man or a woman. This is a person who fucks and leaves. She’s rich: she’s the Bruce Wayne model. And there is nothing well-adjusted about Bruce Wayne or Lara Croft.

When the reboot was revealed, a PR guy at CD reduced the old Lara to "Whatever! I'm Rich!" (exact quote) and said that made her unrelatable. I don't ever recall her flaunting her wealth to other characters in previous games that way, so I dunno where that view came from. Also, I've read views from dudes on the forums who say they didn't like how witty and confident the old Lara was. Apparently it made her sound unappealing or whatever. I'm assuming this is part of the "I'm old fashioned and want to protect her" crowd.

If you look at Ellie from TLoU, she's much younger than reboot Lara, but is still witty and sharp for her age. Yet, she can be fragile when the situation arises. Most people find her appealing. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Hopefully the writers at CD take note of that, but I'm not holding my breath. Lara was comically bad in the reboot. Her character arc was basically some crying at the beginning, then screaming out the names of all the crew dudes who die trying to save her (lol), then ending with "Rawr! I'm coming for you bastards!"

Like, the actual platforming is not horrible, it's just everything around it where it's just one direction:

Also, the auto-correct during platforming can be quite generous at times. While exploring, there were areas that looked climbable but I wasn't too sure. Trying to jump into those areas, the game would auto-correct to the nearest actual ledge if there was one (e.g. trying to jump forward and to the left, Lara would zig zag to the right).

It's a bummer because all the mechanics are there, but they don't trust the player for whatever reason. The pickaxe adds another ability with tons of potential but they don't go very far with it (like the grapple and wall running in TRA). The combat has a similar issue. The weapons feel so nice, stealth and auto cover work flawlessly, but the actual enemy encounters are a snoozefest. It's so dumb that they don't want the player to die during combat when the player has full control, but rather have them die during a rigged QTE while Lara gets felt up. And it really is rigged. On the PC version, you can live debug the QTE timer, and it's set ridiculously short on certain QTEs (guess which ones), so that the first attempt will typically fail.

 

[Shinta]

I would also like to add, as I always do, that the game fails even on its own terms, and not even as a "Tomb Raider" game, by promising a survival experience that it does not deliver.

Not at all. You can hunt to get xp if you want. It never says the game is going to be Resident Evil or Snake Eater with a depleting hunger meter, hypothermia threats, and dysentery hiding in your water sources.

 

[Amir0x]

Not at all. You can hunt to get xp if you want. It never says the game is going to be Resident Evil or Snake Eater with a depleting hunger meter, hypothermia threats, and dysentery hiding in your water sources.

what do you need to survive anyway? there is no challenge on the game no matter what difficulty you select.

it's just Pretty Island/Dark Island: the world's most epic hike

 

[Manu]

Even though I have a zero percent optimism that they are going to smarten up and change their horrendous checklist-game-design-by-comittee abomination for the sequel, I hope you are right. I hope they used TR2013 to lure skill-averse gamers into the fold, so they can smack them upside the head in the sequel.

The interesting thing about TR2013, at least the only interesting thing as far as I am concerned, is that the actual platforming mechanics (that is to say, the way Lara Croft moves/jumps and her momentum) are drastically better than they were in any of the other Crystal Dynamics titles. But the entire game designed around those mechanics was atrocious. There wasn't a single need to get any better at anything. The window of error for jumps was so comically large that I probably could have closed my eyes and gained victory in all these obstacles. None of the levels were designed to challenge you or even interest you. As far as I can tell, they are there simply to provide pretty backdrops, because they certainly aren't there to demonstrate quality level design or anything.

In the original Tomb Raider games, you frequently had sprawling, brilliantly epic multiroom puzzles that didn't only require your brain - they often required your quick reflexes and application of your acquired skills to that point. You might solve a particularly hard puzzle, only to realize that now a clock is ticking and you have to navigate an obscenely difficult platforming obstacle course to make it an slide under the door before it closes.

There is nothing that even remotely comes close to the tension and rewarding nature of the best of OG Tomb Raider such as illustrated in that door example above. Bridges cinematically breaking around you to not threat of your own body as long as you press forward is not close. I don't know how anyone on Earth thought this was a good exchange, eliminating the only franchise left in the industry that still played this impressively for... that.... Uncharted/gore/AAA clone.

Back in the day, you didn't need the sounds of bullets echoing off the walls to be entertained. Tomb Raider 2013 thinks the only point to games IS to shoot bullets or arrows. 80% of my time in that game was spent navigating from one combat encounter to the next. OG TR fans used to mock whenever a TR game started bringing in too much combat, because we all knew that was never the point. The point was trying to use your wits and skills to navigate an ever increasing series of trap/obstacle courses and puzzle rooms whilst platforming in a very precise manner. People complain about the controls, but they were extremely deliberate and predictable, meaning the second you got a handle on them - and the learning curve was relatively steep, admittedly - the entire game benefited from the application of its precision. You jumped in a grid pattern, and so all your moves were able to be mapped out down to the second.

No, when OG Tomb Raider was around, the only thing gamers needed to keep them comfortable at night was the haunting screams of Lara Croft as she plummets to her doom for the 12th time after you yet again miss that swinging pole to get to the other side. Maybe you can't quite make that jump? But it's so close... I see Lara extending her hand to grab it. Maybe if I edge myself closer to the corner next time and--- ahhhh no. Dead again. And I loved every moment of it.



Like, I don't care that a franchise isn't for me. What I care about is when you appropriate a franchise for your own use, and then edit out every single thing that could even tangentially be related to that franchise - Tomb Raider - we know and love. At least have some respect for a cherished franchise and show you get what it's all about. What happened was the literal definition of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Anyway, I really enjoyed reading this article, I agree with a lot of the points, but think she needs to be even more definitive in the changes.

They can for example keep the actual Lara Croft physics/momentum of TR2013 and make a game that plays like the classics of old, if they so chose. It'd be a miracle at this point if it went down that way, but I'm always one or hope.

citizenkaneclap.gif

Amazing post, I agree with everything.

 

[licktheenvelope]

Less shooting things, more tomb raiding please.

 

[Messofanego]

They have the gameplay direction locked down. I don't think that'll change. There was very little criticism from most "professional" reviews. A few asked for more tombs, so I bet we'll see more of that as optional content.



When the reboot was revealed, a PR guy at CD reduced the old Lara to "Whatever! I'm Rich!" (exact quote) and said that made her unrelatable. I don't ever recall her flaunting her wealth to other characters in previous games that way, so I dunno where that view came from. Also, I've read views from dudes on the forums who say they didn't like how witty and confident the old Lara was. Apparently it made her sound unappealing or whatever. I'm assuming this is part of the "I'm old fashioned and want to protect her" crowd.

If you look at Ellie from TLoU, she's much younger than reboot Lara, but is still witty and sharp for her age. Yet, she can be fragile when the situation arises. Most people find her appealing. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Hopefully the writers at CD take note of that, but I'm not holding my breath. Lara was comically bad in the reboot. Her character arc was basically some crying at the beginning, then screaming out the names of all the crew dudes who die trying to save her (lol), then ending with "Rawr! I'm coming for you bastards!"




Also, the auto-correct during platforming can be quite generous at times. While exploring, there were areas that looked climbable but I wasn't too sure. Trying to jump into those areas, the game would auto-correct to the nearest actual ledge if there was one (e.g. trying to jump forward and to the left, Lara would zig zag to the right).

It's a bummer because all the mechanics are there, but they don't trust the player for whatever reason. The pickaxe adds another ability with tons of potential but they don't go very far with it (like the grapple and wall running in TRA). The combat has a similar issue. The weapons feel so nice, stealth and auto cover work flawlessly, but the actual enemy encounters are a snoozefest. It's so dumb that they don't want the player to die during combat when the player has full control, but rather have them die during a rigged QTE while Lara gets felt up. And it really is rigged. On the PC version, you can live debug the QTE timer, and it's set ridiculously short on certain QTEs (guess which ones), so that the first attempt will typically fail.

It would be pretty sad if people found Lara Croft appealing when she's weak and going through torture porn.

I really do hope platforming becomes more prominent and skill-based in the sequel, because as you mention the pickaxe has some nuance to it and they can only add to that.

 

[Shinta]

It would be pretty sad if people found Lara Croft appealing when she's weak and going through torture porn.

You should really drop that torture porn bullshit.

No one called First Blood, or Die Hard torture porn. Have a guy walk across glass barefoot and bandage his feet with toilet paper and cry in the bathroom and it's fine, because he's a man. But cast a woman in a dark action story and it's "torture porn." It's gritty action, nothing more.

And to then say it's sad if someone enjoyed the game? Why don't you explain what you mean with that statement?

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

It is incredibly difficult as developers, publishers, and fans of indifferently tuned games to get indifferently tuned games out and respected. With the Gamer Bribery flowing like a tsunami last generation, it's erected a web of interlocking expectational warps that took "what should be accomplished in a game" to light-years beyond what even the best players of yesteryear dared dream to accomplish. And that web of expectations behave on a ratchet system: once it's in place as "standard", it's not going back naturally.

• Puzzles that have the answer forced onto you.
  Item management is 0% management and 100% items.
  Enemies are rote in behavior (with deviating from a single, predetermined methodology exceedingly obvious as being wrong).
  Clunky automated platforming, but that clunk is built to put you into a success state instead of killed like bad clunky movement of yesteryear's bad games.
  Endless grinding from DK64-level collecting to replace the above skill-walls.

Good level design, pacing, and goals from yesteryear would be an anathema to this mindset born of not offending anyone. Even easy-tuned games are going to "leave someone out". People hear this. People remember this when it's time to crack open that wallet. Crying and demanding gets results now and takes less effort and suffering than practice or submitting to help from others. It is heard. It is obeyed.

It's only natural this mentality exists; in our earlier existance as a species, setting snares for creatures instead of chasing them or camping near great sources of gatherable goodies was prefferable to walking for miles cuz the tents are plopped down wherever.

Applied to games however, and shit goes sideways. Homogenization. Repetition. Meager, often intangible rewards for getting better. None for failure. Hewing to this methodology doesn't even ensure the existance of the studio, much less its success. Hell, TR reboot wasn't even considered a "success" at launch due to how much money was invested in it (and that money was invested to get those sales!)

It's no wonder the games that ignore parts of this mentality do well, they're tapping into forgotten markets. Safety and guarenteed success are easy draws, but man does not live on bread alone, and by enshrining these criteria as the #1 goals for game development completely writes off many of the great ideas and experiences Ellison spoke of. Watching people who never questioned the low-investiture filmic game design or recent years fall for FML, Dark Souls, Spelunky, and others shows this as true.

People want variety. People want quality. But can gamers, developers, and publishers recognize the start of this darkness that reappears with so many new endeavors here? Can it become an art and a science where it needs to be once more? Is it even a smart move with TR's history? Time will tell.

Nice article by the way. Good having another voice point this out.

 

[Vyer]

I'll pass on the 'you use to have trouble controlling Lara' nostalgia thanks.

I enjoyed the last TR, my only complaints really: tone down the gore as it went a little overboard with the horror elements and expand the actual 'tombs' beyond what they were.

 

[jimi_dini]

Even when they did that kind of stuff in Uncharted, I wouldn't call that platforming. That's just holding up on the stick or your forward key on your keyboard and initiate QTEs.

Yep. I never understood why people liked this type of "gameplay".

It's literally holding the stick up or down and that's it. If you don't, you die. A glorified QTE.
They could have added this part to the cutscene, that played right before that and there wouldn't have been a difference.

 

[Messofanego]

Similar to Cara Ellison's post, I really like this analysis of what the Tomb Raider reboot gets wrong by Jeremy Parish.

"God knows Tomb Raider on PS1 wasn’t exactly Mensa material"

Heh, great line. I like when developers respect the players' intelligence. If they put more effort into the puzzle solving and you can't figure it out, just wait long enough and then give a hint. I'm sure the level designers and programmers would like to code puzzles for a new Tomb Raider game.

Are the smaller games, Guardian of Light and Temple of Osiris, more along those lines of actual puzzles?

 

[Y2Kev]

Yep. I never understood why people liked this type of "gameplay".

It's literally holding the stick up or down and that's it. If you don't, you die. A glorified QTE.
They could have added this part to the cutscene, that played right before that and there wouldn't have been a difference.

But that's what people like-- it's not a cutscene. That's a big part of Uncharted's appeal.

 

[Duxxy3]

Eh, best not to screw with the formula that sold 7 million copies. Change too much from that formula and you'll end up with the series back in the dirt.

 

[That Dude John]

But that's what people like-- it's not a cutscene. That's a big part of Uncharted's appeal.

To be honest, I always liked those sequences because they were like really fancy versions of those rolling boulder levels from Crash Bandicoot.

 

[Darknight]

Really good points made but Im not sure CD is gonna do anything like it.

Also no mention of the "M" word in here yet those gifs are gross....impressive.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

Good write up I wholly agree with.

After seeing so much praise for the reboot, then finally playing it myself, I was pretty disappointed. It saddened me to see how much of an Uncharted clone it became. (lol)
Really though, its like it's lost its identity. I understand the need to appeal to the modern gamer with the gritty pewpews and set pieces, but the execution and reliance on it was just too much.

That said, if it truly was a origin story to set up what we used to know as the Lara Croft, i'm all for it. Hope CD remembers and delivers a good mixture of past and present. And yeah do away with the 'torture porn' nonsense please.

You should really drop that torture porn bullshit.

No one called First Blood, or Die Hard torture porn. Have a guy walk across glass barefoot and bandage his feet with toilet paper and cry in the bathroom and it's fine, because he's a man. But cast a woman in a dark action story and it's "torture porn." It's gritty action, nothing more.

And to then say it's sad if someone enjoyed the game? Why don't you explain what you mean with that statement?

Maybe he means literally torture and porn noises?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lara+croft+tomb+raider+moaning

 

[JohngPR]

I think it works more in Uncharted because they don't have all the baggage of the original games.

They need to stop looking at Uncharted and realize that Lara Croft should be less Nathan Drake and more Indiana Jones.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Eh, best not to screw with the formula that sold 7 million copies. Change too much from that formula and you'll end up with the series back in the dirt.

Tomb Raider 2 sold 7 million copies too...

 

[Manu]

You should really drop that torture porn bullshit.

No one called First Blood, or Die Hard torture porn.

Rambo and John McClane weren't supposed to be "frail" characters we'd "want to protect."

 

[Htown]

But that's what people like-- it's not a cutscene. That's a big part of Uncharted's appeal.

QTEs are just cutscenes except every few seconds you have to press a button to not pause.

Ones where you just hold a single direction the whole time are even worse.

 

[flaxknuckles]

To be honest, I always liked those sequences because they were like really fancy versions of those rolling boulder levels from Crash Bandicoot.

Those running away sequences at least took skill in Crash Bandicoot.

 

[jimi_dini]

But that's what people like-- it's not a cutscene. That's a big part of Uncharted's appeal.

It's a dynamic cutscene, just not a fixed one. The player has almost no input at all. Run down and a little to the left or run down and a little to the right and there is also the ability to die, which (I guess) just restarts the cutscene. Not as terrible as "press a button within 200 msecs and otherwise you die", but still...

I personally don't know if most people really like this part of Uncharted. There are other parts, that are 100% gameplay and then end in a sort of cutscene (Uncharted 2 train). At least those make some sort of sense. And then there is the regular shooting and "platforming".

 

[Messofanego]

You should really drop that torture porn bullshit.

No one called First Blood, or Die Hard torture porn. Have a guy walk across glass barefoot and bandage his feet with toilet paper and cry in the bathroom and it's fine, because he's a man. But cast a woman in a dark action story and it's "torture porn." It's gritty action, nothing more.

And to then say it's sad if someone enjoyed the game? Why don't you explain what you mean with that statement?

I hope you're being willfully ignorant in comparing Die Hard and First Blood to Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider is way more extreme. I don't object to it, but it's excessive. It's more comparable to RE 4 or Manhunt or Dead Space (all horror games on some level), or in movie terms, a exploitation horror movie. I'm not sure why you're taking a gender distinction argument. She wakes tied up in a cocoon, burns herself, and then she falls from a great height to get stabbed with metal pikes. That just sets the pace for future severe injuries that she suffers through like the parachute tree stuff or running away from a plane's wing. There are like five times of that, without ever healing herself (which tends to become an unintentionally hilarious running gag). For a game that's trying to sell you on a believable "gritty" survival tale, it becomes jarring when it's not all consistent.

Then there are all the different fail execution types:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qfDiULrnjI

Rambo or John McClane go through nothing on this level. I can't see Nathan Drake going through any of this. Having this done to the videogame protagonist isn't usually seen in mainstream action-adventure games, it's more a horror thing. Instead, the extreme violence is done towards baddies in such games (Dishonored) which I have a problem in Tomb Raider because of the character they want to portray (like Uncharted is never this gruesome but The Last of Us it makes sense).

 

[grandwizard]

"God knows Tomb Raider on PS1 wasn’t exactly Mensa material"

Heh, great line. I like when developers respect the players' intelligence. If they put more effort into the puzzle solving and you can't figure it out, just wait long enough and then give a hint. I'm sure the level designers and programmers would like to code puzzles for a new Tomb Raider game.

Are the smaller games, Guardian of Light and Temple of Osiris, more along those lines of actual puzzles?

Since Crystal Dynamics are chasing Naughty Dog right now with Tomb Raider it seems appropriate to remember the line the Naughty Dog developer posted on here about their viewpoint: "Dying sucks". In the sense that TR is going they are pushing it full forward to 'Failure sucks". They don't want to make a platforming section that you could fail on, or a puzzle that you could get stuck on. They want to keep you minimally interacted while you waltz through the game as a content tourist and feel satisfied at the end with your weekend blockbuster.

The developers have come to the conclusion that all the work they put into a really intricate setpiece or scripted event is lost and they lose the focus/attention of the player as soon as they fail at it once. After that the set dressing falls apart and the illusion is ruined, the player once again remembers they are playing a game and not 'experiencing playing a movie' or whatever. The problem I have is that I want to play a game, that is why I put a video game in my system. I don't mind the illusion falling apart because it reminds me that I have agency over what is happening, and am an active participant in it rather than just sitting back and watching. There is a balance to be struck there and lately it has tipped too far into the passive side.

The hints you talked about reminded me of the Uncharted games where every time there is anything resembling a puzzle you can not even begin to work on it without a popup telling you to check your journal or your partner spoiling the solution for you. They don't want you to use your brain they just want you to keep moving to see the next pretty thing. And Tomb Raider is following suit.

Guardian of Light is a really good game, and it doesn't have as intricate puzzles as the proper TR games or hardcore platforming but it doesn't treat you like a total moron either.

 

[Shinta]

Rambo and John McClane weren't supposed to be "frail" characters we'd "want to protect."

He's abused by the police heavily and has extensive scarring, mentally and physically. Rambo literally ends the movie in tears, having a mental breakdown from PTSD. Anyway, I just think it's stupid to have such an obvious double standard.

 

[null_]

While I enjoyed the game for what it was, the real head scratcher to me was Lara's Batman vision -- what was up with that?

 

[flaxknuckles]

While I enjoyed the game for what it was, the real head scratcher to me was Lara's Batman vision -- what was up with that?

That Ubisoft school of checklist game design

 

[gogogow]

Yep. I never understood why people liked this type of "gameplay".

It's literally holding the stick up or down and that's it. If you don't, you die. A glorified QTE.
They could have added this part to the cutscene, that played right before that and there wouldn't have been a difference.

I remember watching the making of documentary on the Substance disc of MGS2 and Kojima said they originally made you run away from the water when the tanker was sinking. In the end Kojima decided against it. Kojima said it looked good, but wasn't fun.

 

[Duxxy3]

Tomb Raider 2 sold 7 million copies too...

And if they took everything that made the first couple of Tomb Raider great, and made that instead of the reboot, it would have sold as much as the isometric game.

The only reason people were interested in the Tomb Raider reboot wasn't because of fond memories of 20 year old games, it was because it looked like uncharted (but it was multiplatform!).

If people want to go back to the Tomb Raider of old, they don't have to look back that far. They were still making the old Tomb Raider games on PS3/360. They didn't grab much interest from people.

 

[xxracerxx]

I remember watching the making of documentary on the Substance disc of MGS2 and Kojima said they originally made you run away from the water when the tanker was sinking. In the end Kojima decided against it. Kojima said it looked good, but wasn't fun.

I always wanted that part in the actual game, dammit.

 

[Sentenza]

For all that I can't really say I would count myself as a fan of this game, I must say it's curious for me to notice how harsh people on this forum are toward its gameplay flaws, while at the same times praising to the heavens and above something like The Last of Us.

 

[Shadow_FFVI]

It can't afford to not be Uncharted when that's what made the franchise relevant again.
Uncharted 4 will be a huge game for Sony next fall, and they will market it accordingly.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

Right at the beginning of the reboot where you have to cross a log, and not only can you not fall off but Lara 'slips' at a scripted time, I already knew what was in store for the rest of the game.

 

[xxracerxx]

For all that I can't really say I would count myself as a fan of this game, I must say it's curious for me to notice how harsh people on this forum are toward its gameplay flaws, while at the same times praising to the heavens and above something like The Last of Us.

Que?

People are critical of TLoU's gameplay as well you know.

 

[Alucrid]

I remember watching the making of documentary on the Substance disc of MGS2 and Kojima said they originally made you run away from the water when the tanker was sinking. In the end Kojima decided against it. Kojima said it looked good, but wasn't fun.

eh i mean, i liked the ladder part in 3 but is holding up really "fun"

likewise, with the hallway scene in 4, is that really "fun"

For all that I can't really say I would count myself as a fan of this game, I must say it's curious for me to notice how harsh people on this forum are toward its gameplay flaws, while at the same times praising to the heavens and above something like The Last of Us.

gameplay is the main criticism levied at tlou

 

[Mman235]

They need to stop looking at Uncharted and realize that Lara Croft should be less Nathan Drake and more Indiana Jones.

I think the article is spot on when it compares Lara more to characters like Mario than current typical AAA characters; while TR has always had more story than series like Mario and I can accept a degree of it as a result, Lara's personality should develop from her actions and interactions during her adventures rather than the developers specifically going out of their way to force it with this "Emotional Storytelling Origin Story Feels You Want To Protect Her" stuff. It's ironic that they obviously want TR to be a cash-cow again when they use a storytelling style that precludes that (it's hard to stretch out a character arc with an obviously planned beginning and end).

If people want to go back to the Tomb Raider of old, they don't have to look back that far. They were still making the old Tomb Raider games on PS3/360. They didn't grab much interest from people.

The problem was that they weren't especially great attempts at modernising it outside of scattered moments, and the only time they really came close was when they based a game off someone else's masterpiece.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Played some of the new tomb raider on pc and instantly didn't like it so I stopped. Then recently everyone is saying how great it is and how much better it is than uncharted, I thought I must've been wrong so I ordered it for ps4.

Now I'm reading this and it's everything I felt was off when I played it on pc. Don't believe the hype I guess.

 

[Sentenza]

Que?

People are critical of TLoU's gameplay as well you know.

For what I noticed, very few, and a far wider user base seem to dismiss these persons as crazy and nitpicking, if not even envious Sony haters.
While enjoying Tomb Raider, on the other hand, in comparison seems almost a dirty secret people should hide shamefully, a guilty pleasure.

 

[Shadow_FFVI]

Yep. I never understood why people liked this type of "gameplay".

It's literally holding the stick up or down and that's it. If you don't, you die. A glorified QTE.
They could have added this part to the cutscene, that played right before that and there wouldn't have been a difference.

What's wrong with adding interactivity to an otherwise passive activity. I think it's exciting, and Naughty Dog integrates these moments masterfully.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

I hope you're being willfully ignorant in comparing Die Hard and First Blood to Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider is way more extreme. I don't object to it, but it's excessive. It's more comparable to RE 4 or Manhunt or Dead Space (all horror games on some level), or in movie terms, a exploitation horror movie. I'm not sure why you're taking a gender distinction argument. She wakes tied up in a cocoon, burns herself, and then she falls from a great height to get stabbed with metal pikes. That just sets the pace for future severe injuries that she suffers through like the parachute tree stuff or running away from a plane's wing. There are like five times of that, without ever healing herself (which tends to become an unintentionally hilarious running gag). For a game that's trying to sell you on a believable "gritty" survival tale, it becomes jarring when it's not all consistent.

Then there are all the different fail execution types:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qfDiULrnjI

Rambo or John McClane go through nothing on this level. I can't see Nathan Drake going through any of this. Having this done to the videogame protagonist isn't usually seen in mainstream action-adventure games, it's more a horror thing. Instead, the extreme violence is done towards baddies in such games (Dishonored) which I have a problem in Tomb Raider because of the character they want to portray (like Uncharted is never this gruesome but The Last of Us it makes sense).

Obligatory:

Ill never forget this reaction^ These deaths and Lara twitching for her last breath with a spear through her neck is not 'gritty' its unnecessary. Conan agrees.

And yeah these painful set pieces are laughable. Not even in the charming classic Tomb Raider way

 

[Diprosalic]

But that's what people like-- it's not a cutscene. That's a big part of Uncharted's appeal.

That should be a quote on the Uncharted cover

"It's not a cutscene!"

 

[gogogow]

eh i mean, i liked the ladder part in 3 but is holding up really "fun"

likewise, with the hallway scene in 4, is that really "fun"

The long ladder and halfway through the themesong starts playing and the microwave scene? I thought the general consensus was that those two scenes were really well liked here. People keep mentioning them in threads about favourite moments etc.

Those scenes are also not really about gameplay, but more about building up emotion and atmosphere.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Not ellen page

She has powers, she could be there if she willed it

 

[tokkun]

Rambo or John McClane go through nothing on this level. I can't see Nathan Drake going through any of this. Having this done to the videogame protagonist isn't usually seen in mainstream action-adventure games, it's more a horror thing. Instead, the extreme violence is done towards baddies in such games (Dishonored) which I have a problem in Tomb Raider because of the character they want to portray (like Uncharted is never this gruesome but The Last of Us it makes sense).

It used to happen a lot in non-horror games in the 90s. Felt kind of like a throwback to me in that way.

Take the Fear Effect series, which was compared a lot to Tomb Raider as an action adventure game with a female protagonist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr_btcSxMP0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYl0guQTQSI

Of course it was a huge thing with adventure games; Dragon's Lair, Space Ace, King's Quest; Space Quest - the death's were considered one of the main features of those games.

Also worth pointing out that there are a lot of death animations in Tomb Raider Anniversary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AK6FOl34M8&list=TLbx7UUKMaFhUIsuTjqcH--baJVWu9qSSw

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Woah.

What the fuck?

Wow.

You will want to protect her.

You will or you cry.

 

[Y2Kev]

QTEs are just cutscenes except every few seconds you have to press a button to not pause.

Ones where you just hold a single direction the whole time are even worse.

There are plenty of these in Uncharted where you don't "hold forward." This is really reductionist.

It's a dynamic cutscene, just not a fixed one. The player has almost no input at all. Run down and a little to the left or run down and a little to the right and there is also the ability to die, which (I guess) just restarts the cutscene. Not as terrible as "press a button within 200 msecs and otherwise you die", but still...

I personally don't know if most people really like this part of Uncharted. There are other parts, that are 100% gameplay and then end in a sort of cutscene (Uncharted 2 train). At least those make some sort of sense. And then there is the regular shooting and "platforming".

It's not a cutscene; it doesn't fit the definition. This is not squabbling over definitions. It's really significant. The degree of player agency is higher than the alternative that you suggested.

What's wrong with adding interactivity to an otherwise passive activity. I think it's exciting, and Naughty Dog integrates these moments masterfully.

This is exactly what Naughty Dog is trying to do-- reduce the amount of time the player is not in control of the character's movements. There are arguments to be made about player agency...and those happen all the time, regarding more than just the "cutscenes"...but the goal here is plainly obvious.

 

[Teeth]

I hope you're being willfully ignorant in comparing Die Hard and First Blood to Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider is way more extreme. I don't object to it, but it's excessive. It's more comparable to RE 4 or Manhunt or Dead Space (all horror games on some level), or in movie terms, a exploitation horror movie. I'm not sure why you're taking a gender distinction argument. She wakes tied up in a cocoon, burns herself, and then she falls from a great height to get stabbed with metal pikes. That just sets the pace for future severe injuries that she suffers through like the parachute tree stuff or running away from a plane's wing. There are like five times of that, without ever healing herself (which tends to become an unintentionally hilarious running gag). For a game that's trying to sell you on a believable "gritty" survival tale, it becomes jarring when it's not all consistent.

Then there are all the different fail execution types:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qfDiULrnjI

Rambo or John McClane go through nothing on this level. I can't see Nathan Drake going through any of this. Having this done to the videogame protagonist isn't usually seen in mainstream action-adventure games, it's more a horror thing. Instead, the extreme violence is done towards baddies in such games (Dishonored) which I have a problem in Tomb Raider because of the character they want to portray (like Uncharted is never this gruesome but The Last of Us it makes sense).

I sometimes wonder if these scenes came about in a board room when they were thinking about all the things they loved about old Tomb Raiders; like, "Man wasn't it crazy when you swan dived off of a 4 story structure and she just crumpled into a mess of limbs! We should do that, but TAKE IT UP TO 11!"

I think it was ShockingAlberto that postulated somewhere that they may have been just a left over vestige of when TR13 had a more horror theme.

 

[xxracerxx]

For what I noticed, very few, and a far wider user base seem to dismiss these persons as crazy and nitpicking, if not even envious Sony haters.
While enjoying Tomb Raider, on the other hand, in comparison seems almost a dirty secret people should hide shamefully, a guilty pleasure.

Eh, from what I notice people are critical on the gameplay of TLoU more than TR:2013. Tomb Raider gets picked apart for it's story and the whole "protect her" more than the gameplay. I personally enjoyed the gameplay in both. Bow only 4 lyf.