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[levyjl1988]

You got Halo Infinite.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumor-343-is-now-stopping-active-development-and-become-franchise-coordinator-of-halo-halo-infinite-campaign-dlcs-scrapped-focus-on-mp-support.1650315/

You got Marvel Avengers, which will be winding down now...

[EXCLUSIVE] Marvel's Avengers Has Disassembled

The floundering Marvel live service is finally coming to an end, with an announcement expected as early as next week.

exputer.com

You guys already know about the death of Anthem.

Publishers should stop chasing live services because most often they fail.

 

[feynoob]

Not when it makes alot of money for them.

The anger should forwarded to players.

Here is EA for example
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...me-has-now-generated-usd2-billion-in-earnings

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

Oh, they're not gonna stop.

They try until they get a cash cow.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I command for you conciseness. Because there is this absolute retard called ChorizoPicozo that Takes the "Wall of Text and Images" to the next level.

on topic: this disgusting dude posted a comment about this very topic. with a bunch of examples and headlines....the thing is....if you look at every publisher; basically all are dependant of GaaS/MTXs to exists otherwise they wouldn't be able to sustain themselves.

 

[Con-Z-epT]

Just three examples that failed but there are so many that make millions. Of course this is a recurring scheme.

 

[anthony2690]

I think Ubisoft has been the biggest offender.

They are literally desperate for a gaas title to take off like siege has.

They have had numerous flops, hyperscape, roller champions, the cancelled ghost recon BR game.



Anyone remember this on? This got so much back lash on reveal that they cancelled it, I'm not interested in it myself, but it still surprises me, as when Wildlands came out, a lot of people wanted a br mode added.

Then when it was revealed it was disliked into cancellation.

Maybe a surprise launch like with apex might have helped, it was out and people could play it and make their own minds up on it, before being told to hate it by their fave YouTubers.

I hope Ubisoft manages to turn themselves around like capcom did, as I'd personally love to see more ubi-art games like Rayman Legends & Child of Light.

 

[Kataploom]

Yeah I don't know where this idea of GaaS being a gold mine comes from, there are some outliers but that's like catching a lightning in a bottle, most of them fail so hard that I think these companies having a such a hard situation is a direct consequence of pursuing that model with so much insistence

 

[Black_Stride]

Pubs effectively only need one to work then all failed ones dont matter.
So they will keep trying.
One hit live service game completely changes the balance sheet, even if it has 5 failed ones on there.

 

[kiphalfton]

Not when it makes alot of money for them.

The anger should forwarded to players.

Here is EA for example
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...me-has-now-generated-usd2-billion-in-earnings

Not every gaas can be successful, and devs need to realize that before they alienate fans by fucking with established series.

But I guess we can find solace when they fall flat on their face.

 

[legacy24]

Factions is next

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Halo was planned as a Live Service game, but as an initial release, it was pretty much a fully self-contained package as content-rich as any other non-GaaS game. So I don't think pointing to this is a great example because Halo didn't fail because of their Live Service plans. It failed because it was just disappointing as a game and underperformed because it was basically given away for free on GamePass.

Marvel Avengers also didn't fail because it was a Live Service game. It failed because it was just a bad game.

The beauty of Live Services, is you can build a game as a fully self-contained package at launch, e.g. Destiny 1/2, GTAV, Warframe, and then continue delivering a consistent flow of content updates to keep people engaged.

If at launch you deliver a quality product, people will be itching to play more content, and keeping them fed with regular updates is a net positive. Destiny, GTAV, Fortnite, and others have done this.

If at launch you end up with a lackluster product, it takes a longer-term time and resource investment to turn the ship around, but if you persist you can still build something very successful. Warframe, Sea of Thieves, etc are great examples of this.

Unlike the OP, I'm not against GaaS games at all. But I do think that devs that plan for GaaS, without figuring out how their initial release is going to freaking slap, will be fighting an uphill battle trying to convince gamers to buy in in the longer term. Best to nail the first impression as otherwise you're left with trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Yeah I don't know where this idea of GaaS being a gold mine comes from, there are some outliers but that's like catching a lightning in a bottle, most of them fail so hard that I think these companies having a such a hard situation is a direct consequence of pursuing that model with so much insistence

I think it comes from the fact that is what keeps this industry (big publishers) alive.

 

[poppabk]

Why would Halo dropping work on SP to focus on the live service MP be a sign that live service games are failing?

 

[Crayon]

It's like a claw machine that takes 50 million dollars to play but with a 2 billion dollar teddy bear inside.

 

[Umbasaborne]

Essentially, what happened was that between 2014-2015, destiny and gta online exploded in popularity. Other publishers took note of that, and wanted a piece of that pie too. Well, the issue is that these games take 5 years to make, so by they time they actually came out in 2019-2021, the market had already found a live service that jumped on the band wagon sooner, or stuck with destiny. No one was interested in another looter live service. Every publisher wants a live service, they dont have to front the money for a new game and will continue earning on the existing product if its popular. Its clear to see why this would be so appealing.

 

[Mr.ODST]

I think Ubisoft has been the biggest offender.

They are literally desperate for a gaas title to take off like siege has.

They have had numerous flops, hyperscape, roller champions, the cancelled ghost recon BR game.



Anyone remember this on? This got so much back lash on reveal that they cancelled it, I'm not interested in it myself, but it still surprises me, as when Wildlands came out, a lot of people wanted a br mode added.

Then when it was revealed it was disliked into cancellation.

Maybe a surprise launch like with apex might have helped, it was out and people could play it and make their own minds up on it, before being told to hate it by their fave YouTubers.

I hope Ubisoft manages to turn themselves around like capcom did, as I'd personally love to see more ubi-art games like Rayman Legends & Child of Light.

The game was extremely fun from what I played at a friends house, was a shame it got cancelled

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

A single successful live service game can carry a studio for a decade if you go 1/10 you are better off than having 10 successful hits due to residual income. As an enjoyer of content it sucks, from a business perspective it’s a much safer option. Especially considering one live service game can have a fairly moderate budget to make and upkeep if successful has a massive profit.

 

[remember_spinal]

A successful live service is too valuable for big publishers to ignore at this point. A lot of companies are surviving off their one live service game alone, it would be dumb to ignore what the market wants at this point.

Even if there are 100 failures the 10 that don’t fail is like winning the lotto and if you’re a good publisher you can reduce the odds of failure

Example, having a live service that generates good money is like sony putting out a new god of war every year without a 4-5 year development time and marketing budget

 

[Gaiff]

Pubs effectively only need one to work then all failed ones dont matter.
So they will keep trying.
One hit live service game completely changes the balance sheet, even if it has 5 failed ones on there.

Pretty much this. If you pull out a Genshin Impact or Fortnite, the failed endeavors won't matter. These games generate billions of dollars every year for years.

 

[Jaybe]

Maybe Suicide Squad will get it right

 

[Fbh]

It's like a claw machine that takes 50 million dollars to play but with a 2 billion dollar teddy bear inside.

This.
Publishers are willing to accept fail after fail because IF they make something that blows up it will make them more money than (almost) any traditional game.

 

[yurinka]

Over half of the gaming revenue comes from add-ons, mostly from GaaS games. Most big publishers get a huge chunk of their game revenue from GaaS, which helps them have around half of their revenue coming from legacy (released in previous years) games, which allows them to depend less on new game releases.

 

[Wildebeest]

I'm happy to see them fail and lose all that money to the smaller companies that moved to a new market faster than them while they tried to milk established markets dry. It must drive them up the wall.

 

[The Alien]

Everyone is chasing that insane Fortnite money.

 

[ANDS]

You got Halo Infinite.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumor-343-is-now-stopping-active-development-and-become-franchise-coordinator-of-halo-halo-infinite-campaign-dlcs-scrapped-focus-on-mp-support.1650315/

You got Marvel Avengers, which will be winding down now...

[EXCLUSIVE] Marvel's Avengers Has Disassembled

The floundering Marvel live service is finally coming to an end, with an announcement expected as early as next week.

exputer.com

You guys already know about the death of Anthem.

Publishers should stop chasing live services because most often they fail.

. . . curious that an the other live service games that are successes - DESTINY, GENSHIN, POE, APEX, COD, LOST ARK, etc. - aren't given credit.

Live service games are here to stay. Period.

 

[levyjl1988]

It's official now for Marvel Avengers:

Final Update on the Future of Marvel's Avengers - Marvel's Avengers Game

*We have updated our Q&A with an “Updated Community Questions” section addressing more of your questions about our end-of-support plans. To our amazing community, After two-and-a-half years and introducing twelve of Earth’s Mightiest Heroes, following Update 2.8 on March 31, 2023, we will no...

avengers.crystald.com

 

[eastcoastkody]

we need to stop pretending X genre or X release strategy is BAD.

everything thats done poorly is BAD. Avengers and Halo Infinite aren't BAD because they are live service. They are just poorly mismanaged. And weren't supported properly.

Suicide Squad won't be BAD because its a GaAS. If its bad it will be because of bugs, bad combat, or poorly implemented features and boring game loops.

on paper Fortnite and Apex Legends were horrible ideas. But they are both great and successful. Im sure there were posts about how Fortnite Save the World is fun and doesn't need a stupid BR mode. Im sure plenty of ppl were nauseous at the thought of TitanFall becoming a heroshooter BR with no Titans. Just like winning cures everything. Making a great game cures everything

 

[Kataploom]

I think it comes from the fact that is what keeps this industry (big publishers) alive.

I'm not so sure, clearly it brings a handful of publishers lots revenues, but since then many are pursuing that dream in hopes of the same results when they didn't NEED it, now they have a row of success in order to stay in business like Ubisoft and square enix... They can keep trying but they should keep taking care of the audience that made them successful in first place, instead of keeping them alive it's killing them

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Good games that are well supported will do well. GaaS itself isn't a bad concept since there are plenty of games under that genre umbrella that do quite well.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I'm not so sure, clearly it brings a handful of publishers lots revenues, but since then many are pursuing that dream in hopes of the same results when they didn't NEED it,

i am not sure about that. capitalism baby. as simple as that. your traditional stand alone game ain't gonna cut it.

now they have a row of success in order to stay in business like Ubisoft and square enix...

what do you mean?

They can keep trying but they should keep taking care of the audience that made them successful in first place.

sure.

instead of keeping them alive it's killing them

but also the "traditional games" were/are killing them.

 

[balls of snow]

Ehh. They only need to hit once, and money generated can be used for other sp only projects. What, you think your 70 dollars is enough for ea to greenlight and release Dead Space Remake, Jedi Survivor and Wild Hearts in 2023. Thats Apex Legends fuck you money at work.

 

[64bitmodels]

if you look at every publisher; basically all are dependant of GaaS/MTXs to exists otherwise they wouldn't be able to sustain themselves.

Capcom exists, doing just fine without any GaaS
Fromsoftware too, no GaaS yet they produced GOTY 2022
Asobo Studio too, no GaaS either but Plague Tale exists and it got a sequel. one of the most AAA games you can think of and it was funded with no GaaS

If your company needs GaaS to survive then it's clearly far too big for its own good. Your entire structure can't rely on one game and all the money it brings you. you gotta downsize

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Capcom exists, doing just fine without any GaaS
Fromsoftware too, no GaaS yet they produced GOTY 2022
Asobo Studio too, no GaaS either but Plague Tale exists and it got a sequel. one of the most AAA games you can think of and it was funded with no GaaS
If your company needs GaaS to survive then it's clearly far too big for its own good. Your entire structure can't rely on one game and all the money it brings you

that is what I have been saying.
I made a long ass post about this.

AAA/Big Publisher is fucked up.

 

[Kataploom]

i am not sure about that. capitalism baby. as simple as that. your traditional stand alone game ain't gonna cut it.

what do you mean?


sure.


but also the "traditional games" were/are killing them.

Sorry, I meant they need a row of successes.

Well, that's a matter of balancing budgets in the end, not throw everything at GaaS

 

[Havoc2049]

Sea of Thieves and Grounded are doing well for Microsoft. Both games just announced new content and they aren't even Destiny or Fortnite type mega-hits. Rare and Obsidian did MMO/GAAS right and provided a solid initial gameplay loop with a steady flow of new content.

People need to stop it with all the concern threads, trying to shoehorn the 343 layoffs into a larger narrative. 343 was mismanaged. Tons of Halo fans have been calling for a change for years. Hell, I think upper management at 343 should have changed after the MCC launch fiasco. But it didn't happen and here we are.

 

[The_Mike]

. . . curious that an the other live service games that are successes - DESTINY, GENSHIN, POE, APEX, COD, LOST ARK, etc. - aren't given credit.

Live service games are here to stay. Period.

Why would OP mention them, it doesn't fit the agenda of OPs post.

You forgot Warframe as well. And call of duty to some extent.

 

[Holammer]

Think of such games as lottery tickets, relatively cheap to develop and if it fails? Just pull the plug and try again.
If you get a winner, the gains are incredible.

 

[Varteras]

I believe it was a Sony executive, maybe Jim Ryan, who said that out of their 10+ live service projects, they would only need two or three of them to be successful for the investment to be worth it overall. When a live service game takes off, it is transformative for the company responsible.

 

[rofif]

But then new game like forspoken comes out and people hate it and want it to fail… because the main character is a woman who talks and have personality.

But no. Better get new 4 player coop unreal engine game. People are so stubborn to give something a chance

 

[64bitmodels]

But then new game like forspoken comes out and people hate it and want it to fail… because the main character is a woman who talks and have personality.

and also the fact that the game looks generic, plays generic, doesn't innovate or try anything new with an RPG open world (which is especially egregious coming out after Elden Ring) and to top it all off it runs terribly on both PS5 and PC without having the visuals to compensate.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Pubs effectively only need one to work then all failed ones dont matter.
So they will keep trying.
One hit live service game completely changes the balance sheet, even if it has 5 failed ones on there.

The thing is, that's not much different from any other space.

Square had Final Fantasy and I guess Kingdom Hearts and Enix had Dragon Quest... What major IP have they come up with in the AAA game space in the last 20 years?

They're largely survived by the popularity of their GaaS FF online games

 

[KungFucius]

Halo was planned as a Live Service game, but as an initial release, it was pretty much a fully self-contained package as content-rich as any other non-GaaS game. So I don't think pointing to this is a great example because Halo didn't fail because of their Live Service plans. It failed because it was just disappointing as a game and underperformed because it was basically given away for free on GamePass.

Marvel Avengers also didn't fail because it was a Live Service game. It failed because it was just a bad game.

The beauty of Live Services, is you can build a game as a fully self-contained package at launch, e.g. Destiny 1/2, GTAV, Warframe, and then continue delivering a consistent flow of content updates to keep people engaged.

If at launch you deliver a quality product, people will be itching to play more content, and keeping them fed with regular updates is a net positive. Destiny, GTAV, Fortnite, and others have done this.

If at launch you end up with a lackluster product, it takes a longer-term time and resource investment to turn the ship around, but if you persist you can still build something very successful. Warframe, Sea of Thieves, etc are great examples of this.

Unlike the OP, I'm not against GaaS games at all. But I do think that devs that plan for GaaS, without figuring out how their initial release is going to freaking slap, will be fighting an uphill battle trying to convince gamers to buy in in the longer term. Best to nail the first impression as otherwise you're left with trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

I am sure many gamers are like me when it comes to games. I want a decent length campaign and then I want to move on to something else or take a break from games for a while. GaaS games really require the player to keep playing the one game and not something else. I am currently playing Fallout 76 and the GaaS shit is pretty terrible though the core game is similar enough to Fallout 4 that it will keep me engaged as I tackle the main missions. No way in hell I would play that game for months and months.

 

[rofif]

and also the fact that the game looks generic, plays generic, doesn't innovate or try anything new with an RPG open world (which is especially egregious coming out after Elden Ring) and to top it all off it runs terribly on both PS5 and PC without having the visuals to compensate.

None of this is true. Have you played it? It’s your opinion based on assumption.
People who played the full game say it’s good

 

[Guilty_AI]

People who played the full game say it’s good

The few carefully selected people you mean.

And just saying, I don't think the game will be bad, just mid. Some elements that'll attract some like the magic parkour, other elements that'll put people off like the teensy dialogue, which is one major reason for the dislike this is getting before release.
And you can't deny the game has shown plenty of red flags so far.

 

[K2D]

I bet they had someone voice concerns about over-saturation of their IPs, and promptly escorted them out the door.

Maybe they're coasting on current numbers and hope to hit a jackpot for the least amount of work.

 

[jakinov]

Firstly, your first example of live service video games failing is an article about them canceling single player and still focusing on multiplayer. The second example is a game that was primairly advertised as a single player experience which failed as a single player experience and so the added on live services became moot.

Secondly, live services games fail but they are very cheap and quick to make. Very low risk. Many single player games fail too.

Lastly, with low risk in mind, when they work out okay you get good money. 74% of EA revenue comes from live services. When they are great you get games with 10s of millions of players generating billions in revenue every year.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I am sure many gamers are like me when it comes to games. I want a decent length campaign and then I want to move on to something else or take a break from games for a while. GaaS games really require the player to keep playing the one game and not something else. I am currently playing Fallout 76 and the GaaS shit is pretty terrible though the core game is similar enough to Fallout 4 that it will keep me engaged as I tackle the main missions. No way in hell I would play that game for months and months.

GaaS games don't really require you to play for months and months. You make that choice to stick with it or not.

I've been a dedicated Destiny 2 player since it launched. But over the years, there's been many instances where I abandon the game and go play other games, and then jump back in when a huge new expansion drops. It's totally your choice.

Unless you really have a problem with FOMO, you can totally pick and choose when to play the game and when not to.

Overall, I'd argue that my gaming life is richer for having D2 to come back to in the dry periods when I'm waiting for the big AAA releases to launch and I've nothing else to play.

 

[FeralEcho]

. . . curious that an the other live service games that are successes - DESTINY, GENSHIN, POE, APEX, COD, LOST ARK, etc. - aren't given credit.

Live service games are here to stay. Period.

They can fuck off.Exclamation Mark!

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Publishers should stop chasing live services because most often they fail.

CoD, Destiny, Fortnite, Apex Legends, Fall Guys, Rocket League, Genshin Impact etc. etc. seems to do really well. I'd say it's 70/30 in favor of successful live service games, if we only count the major publishers. Can also be applied to all games released.

 

[HTK]

No OP.

Publishers and Developers just need to know that GaaS is HIGH RISK, HIGH REWARD. Which I’m sure they do but a lot of them feel like they can pull it off. I’m sure some failures will adjust that “feel” aspect to sync with reality with the vision.