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[BadBurger]

OK, sure, but I mean the core minute-to-minute combat is almost the same as it was twenty years ago. And also the dumb weapon breakings. There's a good reason this game is polarizing to those who aren't super fans of the franchise like us.

 

[Arthimura]

I deliberately took away the combat part of your quote and shortened it to "critical towards open-world games in general."

Combat in Horizon is mecanically deeper than in BOTW. It's basically single player Monster Hunter lite.

General open-world quality and diversity in content is good.

But this has nothing to do with the shallow combat, dumb weapon breaking and lack of diversity in content that BOTW has.

 

[Sosokrates]

BOTW has very good combat, haters gonna hate.

 

[Swipeyowifelike]

BOTW has very good combat, haters gonna hate.

 

[nkarafo]

I just want to use my swords and pikes but they break after 5 hits

It's nice that there are so many tricks you can do using the game's physics and mechanics but it shouldn't force you to use them by making your main weapons useless. Sometimes i just want to relax instead of wrestling with the buttons and physics to do all these acrobatics.

 

[Keihart]

I love BOTW but the combat is only alirght.
It is cool how you can use all the systems of the game into combat situations , following that idea of allowing players to be creative....but, you don't really need to use any of that unless you are goofing around because the only real difficulty of combat is to have enough durability in your weapon.
Anyway, i think it matters very little to the experience, BOTW is much more about everything else than good combat.

Also, kinda funny how the first Horizon will forever live as that game that came out around BoTW and now the sequel is also just that game that came out around Elden Ring, both times getting eclipsed by games with way better exploration but for different reasons.

Makes you think really, safe game design isn't all that rewarding after all..

 

[Rykan]

it is also the fastest way in God of War. most standard mobs can easily be juggled all the way to the end.

try fighting a bigger enemy in Zelda by only using standard attacks. no trash mob, but an actually bigger enemy.

it's the same thing. you can't use your standard attacks and think it's optimal unless it's a trash mob. same as in God of War.
and then we can also add enemy masses. at which point it becomes ridiculously unoptimal to simply use normal attacks in Zelda.
usually a combination of bombs, arrows and sword attacks is needed to optimally fight enemy crowds.
some enemies you have to parry to optimally defeat too. and not just slightly faster but ~10x faster

It's not the fastest way at all. You clearly don't know how to actually optimize in GoW 2018. The standard combo is not the best way to juggle. It's not the longest and it's not the most effective either.

Here is the thing: Even if we include both arrows and bombs into the mix, the combat is still as shallow as a kiddy pool when compered to GoW. I have no idea why you keep trying to argue that these games are on the same level of depth when it comes to combat when it's clear that they aren't.

 

[Kataploom]

100% agree with OP... Whenever people critizices BOTW combat and weapon degradation I'm always like "Wait... are they ACTUALLY fighting directly swinging their weapons to enemies? WHY?!"

I'm sorry to tell you this, but BOTW combat involves all the scenario, I quickly realized I prefered to use the environment or other weapons like bombs and the rest of the skills to kill enemies to avoid fighting directly because the game with its difficulty CLEARLY tells you "you are not supposed to go directly against enemies"

To those saying "it doesn't count"... Oc it doesn't count to you because you're literally limiting all of your options with no reason more than because you're used to fight like that in other games... it's a game where the environment is the weapon, the scenario, the dungeon, everything...

I'd give that it's not a game for everyone tho, but not because it's too different it means it's bad, it's like saying souls games are bad because you can't just go and kill whatever as if it was a DMC or Bayonetta game, oc like souls, Zelda BOTW is a very singular type of game that didn't exist before and players (specially old players) has to LEARN how to play it... Just like it happened to souls games... Some people just expects it to be what it's not and call it a bad game because of it... It's not a coincidence that these people tend to be in a dedicated forum, where most are used to play other types of games, Zelda BOTW has to be learned to play or GTFO

 

[JCK75]

I can't think of any other game that gives the amount of incredible clips like the ones you presented..
BOTW is a masterpiece and anyone pretending it's anything but is.. well I just used the word pretending and that's the key.

 

[eNT1TY]

None of the examples listed by the TC are an indication of good combat but rather the opposite, the combat is so poor you have to engage in situational and unreliably replicable circumstances, situations, or conditions to supplement combat or all-together bypass it. The fact that you have to convolute what should be a simple encounter with additional mechanics to get any sort of satisfaction clrearly demonstrates combat is crap.

 

[Fart Knight]

So who's gonna make another Horizon has the best combat with gifs thread?

 

[The_Mike]

My weapon just broke after seeing these gifs

 

[ANDS]

I can't think of any other game that gives the amount of incredible clips like the ones you presented..
BOTW is a masterpiece and anyone pretending it's anything but is.. well I just used the word pretending and that's the key.

Any ARKANE game, RDR2, GTAO, Soulslike games where the player has mastered combat and enemy tells, really any game that has deep enough systems.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

No I talk about people using the most effective way to battle. and what I listed are the most effective ways to battle in those games.
I for example haven't used a single trap in my playthrough of Horizon Forbidden West outside of tutorial stuff.
why? because I very quickly saw how slow and useless they are when I just can turn on bullettime and shoot off every important part of an enemy withing like 10 seconds.

and that is true for most games like I said.
in most games there is 1 way to play that gets you through the whole game without you needing to in any way engage with the mechanics of the title.

and that is doubly true if you play on what modern AAA games consider to be the "Normal" difficulty. I play Horizon on hard, and even there it's already not only easy but also faster to ignore almost all of it's mechanics outside of dodging and shooting arrows, so how super braindead has the game to be on Normal or even Easy?

Hell, I brought up Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart multiple times when it comes to this on this forum. if you play that game on anything below the hardest difficulty you can ignore almost all of the game's mechanics. on Normal (Rebel Agent) and below the whole game is just braindead mashing the melee button if you want to... it's effective and you can get through most fights that way on that difficulty setting.
on the highest mode the game is an amazing, almost arena-like/Doom-Lite shooter... on Normal and below it's a braindead semi-platformer...

another example for me was Ghost of Tsushima. that game has 4 stances all with different moves and pros/cons. yet I found myself using the default almost exclusively, so much so even that the game literally paused some fights to tell me that I am using the wrong stance for this enemy type (which is terrible gamedesign but that would be another topic entirely). but the way I used that stance was extremely effective against EVERY type of enemy. that is partly due to how shallow the fighting system is, but also because I found the 2 patterns that worked for me and mostly used those... I later had to basically push myself to actively use a different stance from time to time to not die of boredom in every fight.
and once again, that was on HARD so you can interpolate from that how it must be on normal, easy or the later patched in retar... uhm, I mean "lower intensity" modes

so this whole nonsense that this is somehow a thing that stands out on BotW is just not true. it's the case in almost every game. in most games with any sort of fighting system you usually can easily get by by only using your basic attack and your basic dodge/block, while everything else is extra stuff you can do if you get bored pressing the same 2 buttons the whole game through.

There is zero comparison between those examples and carrying around a cucco so you can use it to attack enemies. Or using a magnet on your boomerang. Or starting a fire just so you can "fly". None of those mechanics are relevant 99% of the time.

 

[EverydayBeast]

That's where Ghost of Tsushima excels at is the combat:

Combat was never the core of Zelda games, Link snapping out of a long nap, taking a minute to explore Hyrule are what make Breath of the Wild great, not that Breath of the Wild doesn't have good combat:

 

[CuteFaceJay]

I need to try that boomer magnet trick.

 

[lughnasadh123]

Souls fans vs BotW fans aka immovable nerd vs an unstoppable dork.

 

[JCK75]

Any ARKANE game, RDR2, GTAO, Soulslike games where the player has mastered combat and enemy tells, really any game that has deep enough systems.

I've never seen the same wow factor as the BOTW clips..

 

[Mephisto40]

If BOTW was released tomorrow, it wouldn't get anywhere near the scores it got when it released. It rode the hype train being the only worthwhile game on the system at the time it came out
In 20 years nobody is going to consider BOTW a 'classic', the same way A Link To The Past is

 

[SeraphJan]

If BOTW was released tomorrow, it wouldn't get anywhere near the scores it got when it released. It rode the hype train being the only worthwhile game on the system at the time it came out
In 20 years nobody is going to consider BOTW a 'classic', the same way A Link To The Past is

A Link To The Past is always a classic for me

 

[PrimetimeKnight]

Is it just me or does it seem like the people who constantly heap praise on BoTW and considerate it a 10/10 masterpiece give off the impression that BoTW is the first open world game they played. Also quite possibly they have only ever owned a Nintendo console. Before anyone accuses or asks, yes I've played BoTW all the way through, twice, all 120 shrines done. It's a middle of the road Zelda at best with at least ALTTP, Ocarina, Twilight, Links Awakening, A Link Between Worlds all better off the top of my head. On second thought, maybe I just need to get more "creative."

 

[Bladed Thesis]

Is it just me or does it seem like the people who constantly heap praise on BoTW and considerate it a 10/10 masterpiece give off the impression that BoTW is the first open world game they played. Also quite possibly they have only ever owned a Nintendo console. Before anyone accuses or asks, yes I've played BoTW all the way through, twice, all 120 shrines done. Maybe I just need to get more "creative."

That's always been my takeaway.

I enjoyed BOTW for what it was but if the crux of an argument is "the majority of people played the game wrong" then maybe the game shouldn't have kept it hidden. I would argue that BOTW gets cut so much slack for things other games get killed for.

You see reviews all the time that criticize poorly constructed open worlds. BOTW has it in spades. Might be the worst, most empty "open world" ever. Yes, you have freedom to run that vast empty world. But its empty. BOTW gets a pass.

You see reviews all the time that criticize poorly constructed enemies or cut and paste enemies decorating the entire world. BOTW has it in spades. Might be the worst, most basic enemies ever in an open world. We're talking cookie cutter, copy paste enemies by the fifth player hour. You've seen and fought them all. BOTW gets a pass.

You see reviews all the time that criticize open world bloat. BOTW has it in spades. Might be the worst, most basic gameplay bloat ever in an open world. Literally the same 120 shrines across the map. AC duplicates or generates same-y feeling dungeons across their games and gets absolutely killed for it in the gaming community. BOTW gets a pass.

Honestly, the game gets a pass so often from Nintendo fans and I think a large part of it is that its the first Nintendo open world to really do it like other game consoles have been doing it for decades. The game copied so much from other games and in many ways did it worse while also losing so much of the core Zelda gameplay loop for the worse imo. But hey, Nintendo finally figured out how to do an open world and it has a character I like so 10/10.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

There's an aspect of "encouraging creativity" that's missing here.

The best games encourage the player to think of new ways to approach engagements. I'm not sure if Breath of the Wild does that particularly well.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

that's like some mental gymnastic shit, "I can use everything to kill everything on the game but that's just not combat, only sword fights"

It has a unique combat system...that doesn't make it good. Your equating the fact you can use the physics to come up with creative combat as meaning it has good combat. A game like Sifu has a far less creative combat system but you'll be pressed to find anyone saying BOTW combat system is better.

 

[PrimetimeKnight]

A Link To The Past is always a classic for me

Might actually be, I feel, the best game of all time. I prefer it over Ocarina.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

A Link To The Past is always a classic for me

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this. Previously, I thought that Ocarina was unequivocally the best Zelda game of all time.

None of this is coming from "nostalgia," by the way. I first played Ocarina of Time in 2016, and completed A Link to the Past for the first time ever just last year. Both are amazing games but I was just blown away by A Link to the Past in ways that surpassed Ocarina. Pound for pound, I think Link to the Past may very well be the greatest Zelda game ever made.

Breath of the Wild (which I bought on the Wii U when when the game released), by comparison, bored me to tears and I actually returned it. And that's coming from someone who rarely ever returns games...

 

[ANDS]

I've never seen the same wow factor as the BOTW clips..

. . .really?

Breath of the Wild (which I bought on the Wii U when when the game released), by comparison, bored me to tears and I actually returned it. And that's coming from someone who rarely ever returns games...

I returned the game and the system. I couldn't believe how bad the actual content in the game was; I honestly was fooling myself telling myself "Well the Divine Beasts are just the classic dungeons (they aren't)" or that the Shrines really weren't just a collection of mobile mini-games.

. . .legit wild how much praise the design of this game gets even after folks have taken multiple looks under the hood.

 

[Shubh_C63]

When it comes to game combat I am certainly not creative enough and not very good at it either in general.
That's why I prefer Bloodborne. All you have to do is duck and Whack!! So simple and amazing.

Learn to know not every game is for everyone.

 

[kurisu_1974]

The bigger issue is that fighting mobs is useless in this game. You gaiin nothing from it, so why fight at all?

 

[TDiddyLive]

After playing 100 hours of Elden Ring

 

[cash_longfellow]

Op….do you work for Nintendo?…because it sounds like you work for Nintendo. People like you, doing the things you do, make a game even worse for me.

 

[Fuz]

No comma needed on title.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

Op….do you work for Nintendo?…because it sounds like you work for Nintendo. People like you, doing the things you do, make a game even worse for me.

From the get go (thread title), the OP set a pretty bad tone for the conversation, which otherwise is a reasonable one to have -- even beyond Breath of the Wild, the general tendency of games to give you (or not give you) the ability to be creative with combat.

But the OP and some of his fellow Nintendo/Breath of the Wild fanatics are defensive and argumentative; just comes off as incredibly childish

 

[Torrent of Pork]

There are also so many caches of weapons scattered about the open world that respawn every Blood Moon I cannot see how anybody runs out. By the mid point of every playthrough I'm rocking a full inventory of top-tier weapons at all times.

 

[jufonuk]

Hmmm...okay. BOTW combat is fine for the game it wants to be, the issue is that because your weapons break you have to seriously consider fighting at all

yeah the whole weapons breaking system on some deep level puts me off a bit

 

[SkeletonQuays]

What is OP's opinion on: If a fighting game player made a post, commenting on the community of not being creative on a specific character for low damage output by showing off unstable, situational, impractical or insanely difficulty combo videos that are rarely done in matches or tournaments alike, and showing disrespect to everyone that points out the impracticality of the combo video shown?

You forgot to mention that, then OP goes on to admit that he installed mods to auto trigger the combo and give them a damage buff, while simultaneously insulting and arguing people who point out how impractical it is.

 

[Keihart]

If BOTW was released tomorrow, it wouldn't get anywhere near the scores it got when it released. It rode the hype train being the only worthwhile game on the system at the time it came out
In 20 years nobody is going to consider BOTW a 'classic', the same way A Link To The Past is

 

[jaysius]

I played on WiiU, I was too busy most of the time worrying about the fucking framerate taking a nose dive to consider being "creative".

This is one of those massive Nintendo Apologists stretches we're supposed to all agree with to fully enjoy the game.

 

[Alexios]

The basic combat is great too, half your examples show that even, ie shield counters and simple/slow mo arrows to the face or the standard lock on melee that every other game (Souls even) has adapted since Ocarina of Time made it a thing to great effect. You're even showing using those special guardian or whatever arrows to kill a lynel after stopping it with the time power, like why? Those arrows are only for guardians because other enemies disappear altogether in one shot so why freeze it? Or why use that arrow and then lose that resource but not gain its weapons in return (well unless you're maxed with good weapons and the lynel is just blocking your passage to somewhere in which case you can still just go ahead and shoot it in the face rather than pretend it's at all a combat scenario with having it chase you and using powers etc.). Using magnesis or whatever it's called in combat sucks, the controls aren't there for it, it's a puzzle mechanic, it's cumbersome and slow and never feels good even if the things you can hold with it do damage enemies because it would be weird if they didn't with everything else in the game having natural effects, it's just bad. If they want physics combat they should change/add to the controls and make it work like Minish Cap's gravity gun-esque Gust Jar or something for combat scenarios rather than pretend its unwieldy and clunky controls meant for puzzles are also viable in combat. The trials needing that sucked.

 

[Fbh]

The combat was fine, the game just needed a scaled back weapon breaking mechanic and like 2 or 3X the enemy variety.

When you are like a third into the game you have seen and encountered almost every enemy. For the remainder of the game they just introduce slight variations of the same enemies with things like slightly different weapons or a different elemental property ("it's the same enemy but fire based")

 

[Danjin44]

like 2 or 3X the enemy variety.

As much as I enjoyed BotW this part I agree, I put more than 30 hours in to Elden Ring and I'm still discovering new enemies and bosses, meanwhile BotW only very small enemy types but with different colors.

That being said I dont think there are many devs out there who can pull off what FROM can when it comes to enemy variety.

 

[Ezquimacore]

As much as I enjoyed BotW this part I agree, I put more than 30 hours in to Elden Ring and I'm still discovering new enemies and bosses, meanwhile BotW only very small enemy types but with different colors.

That being said I dont think there are many devs out there who can pull off what FROM can when it comes to enemy variety.

Zelda always had enemy variety, this time they had to develop the physics engine so everything else was sacrificed. Hopefully the sequel will have a lot more considering it will have 2 or 3 maps.

 

[Ezquimacore]

You forgot to mention that, then OP goes on to admit that he installed mods to auto trigger the combo and give them a damage buff, while simultaneously insulting and arguing people who point out how impractical it is.

I have like 50 mods because I already played the base game 3 times. But why would I make a thread about a modded game when that's not people play it. Use your brain. People here see stuff black and white, creepy shit.

 

[Danjin44]

Zelda always had enemy variety, this time they had to develop the physics engine so everything else was sacrificed. Hopefully the sequel will have a lot more considering it will have 2 or 3 maps.

I personally really like how interactive the world is and how fun to explore in BotW and I personally find the actual combat pretty good but even with good combat you need good enemy/boss variety. The reason people praise the combat in FROM games is for that very reason, the sheer amount enemy/boss type FROM games is simply amazing.

 

[Azelover]

I just about ran the course with most Dark Souls games, but I have a hard time with BotW's combat. It's just not my cup of tea.

And I'm just about as much a Nintendo enthusiast as you can get. BotW is my only weakness..

 

[Filben]

I'd say the combat enables creative ways but that doesn't make it automatically good if I don't see these kind of fights in my game because a) it doesn't require you to fight this way and b) doesn't reward it. There's little to no incentive. It's cool that you can do this stuff, but it would waaaay better if the game told you at certain points and if battles were engaging and so tough for you to actually pull these things off and not just for the sake of looking good or creating cool gifs.

Of course you can blame people not being creative enough – fair point and valid predicate – but that still doesn't make the combat not bad/worse/not good for them. There's no universal truth about the combat; it's about the player experience and my guess is that 99% of the players won't pull of fights like this.

 

[SkeletonQuays]

I have like 50 mods because I already played the base game 3 times. But why would I make a thread about a modded game when that's not people play it. Use your brain. People here see stuff black and white, creepy shit.

Yes, truly terrifying... you're right again... as you have been this whole time. You're winning. Keep it up.

 

[Kokoloko85]

My weapon broke while I was reading so I gotta so no

 

[Fbh]

As much as I enjoyed BotW this part I agree, I put more than 30 hours in to Elden Ring and I'm still discovering new enemies and bosses, meanwhile BotW only very small enemy types but with different colors.

That being said I dont think there are many devs out there who can pull off what FROM can when it comes to enemy variety.

Yeah I get what you mean, making a big open world and having a lot of enemy variety in it is probably a big undertaking.
But it's Zelda, the game sold like 25 million copies (the vast majority of them at $40+). If they really wanted to they could afford to do it, more than almost any other franchise.

I hope that since they'll be recycling a bunch of stuff for BOTW2, they can really focus on improving enemy, gear, dungeon and boss variety.

 

[Oberstein]

The lizard falls off the cliff because it's fucking wet... For that alone, Zelda Botw is worth the Goty.