Why is it interesting ? I said a bit, I didnt meant "Oh god this wont let me sleep at night this musnt be allowed"
And I feel like I answered about intersectionality, hence why I said I can see their need for such an event, held privately.
Buddy, don't pull the "my side's not racist because we have a few black friends arguing our point" nonsense. That's basically the cousin to "I'm not racist cuz I have a black friend" argument, which is so tired and old that it was literally debunked by Malcom X in the 60s.
No one is claiming that France's racism and sexism issues are EXACTLY the same as they are in the US, however if you want to actually approach this conversation honestly, you need to acknowledge a few things:
1) Just like how in the US northern racism takes a different form than Southern Racism. So too does European racism take a different form than US racism. And just like how that doesn't mean the northern US is free of racism issues, Europe isn't free of racism issues either.
2) 2015 and 2016 were years in which racism, fascism, bigotry, and xenophobia were on a very scary rise across the globe, particularly across the western world, now luckily 2017 has become somewhat of a backlash year against that, but to truly defeat those horrible trends, we have to understand and tackle those issues not just in the US but across the western world.
3) Telling minority protesters/organizing that they are protesting/organizing wrong and thus their protests/events are bad is such a tired, old, and predictable tactic. The exact same shit was pulled to try to undermine the civil rights and feminist movements in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s.
How do you feel about this black feminist group and their supporters/members calling black women disagreeing with this concept "house negros" ?When I get called nigger, white people can feel bad, feel hurt, feel concern for me, but it's nothing like living it. Hearing someone use that word and you can see the complete hatred in their eyes. That's an awful experience.
I feel you don't understand the concept of intersectionality since you seemed to have a problem with marginalized groups holding separatist meetings.
Since the understanding of how different sorts of discrimination interplay and intertwine is paramount to understand why people would need separatist meetings.
So if you understand this.
What is your point?
By this example i was showing that the opinion is not ethnocentric
"My side is not racist" so i'm racist if my opinion differ from you here ? it's insulting !
1- i aknowledged there was racism in europe (well i was speaking about France more specificaly)
2- that's even a global problem
3- that's where i differ, philosophicaly not agreeing with the way they chose to do things is not obligatory a way to undermine it, in private space it's legal and in public space it's illegal, here the problematic part is in private space so they can do it.
But for me it's a sort of withdrawal into oneself which i find problematic for many reasons i tried to explain here
It's invalid, not because of your skin color but because of your analogy. You are comparing systems of oppression to the marginalized meeting with each other. It's ridiculous. And I would also have a few words with Black people who had your same viewpoint.
When I get called nigger, white people can feel bad, feel hurt, feel concern for me, but it's nothing like living it. Hearing someone use that word and you can see the complete hatred in their eyes. That's an awful experience. When I want to have a heart to heart about racism, it's gonna be with other Black people. That ain't segregation.
Of course, there are venues where I do discuss this with white people and other races, but holding a meeting among groups being called segregation or even making the problem worse is laughable.
Every space isn't for everyone and that's not malice. When I was 5ish, My mom told me, I'm going to a baby shower and I couldn't go with her. I asked her why and she said, it's just gonna be women with an expecting mother sharing baby gifts. I understood that, at 5. Is that segregation? I don't think so.
Just to add further clarification, personal experience is unique in that it cannot be read or viewed, only personally experienced. There is a great value to conversations with those that have the same personal firsthand experiences. Others outside that group may feel very strongly, but they can't relate personally on that one axis. How can a person add something when a question in such venues is As a Black woman, how is your life with racism and sexism? Unless you are a Black woman, you can't answer that question. And for others, the next question to ask themselves is, why would you want to take away that personal experience with other Black women (not talking about you here, just using our conversation as an example)?
I do now, hence why I said I understand the need for this, in private space.
My point though is to not being misunderstood.
Well now I wonder what types of segregation are ok and what types aren't?
Swimming pools? Bathrooms? locker rooms?
How do you feel about this black feminist group and their supporters/members calling black women disagreeing with this concept "house negros" ?
By this example i was showing that the opinion is not ethnocentric
"My side is not racist" so i'm racist if my opinion differ from you here ? it's insulting !
1- i aknowledged there was racism in europe (well i was speaking about France more specificaly)
2- that's even a global problem
3- that's where i differ, philosophicaly not agreeing with the way they chose to do things is not obligatory a way to undermine it, in private space it's legal and in public space it's illegal, here the problematic part is in private space so they can do it.
But for me it's a sort of withdrawal into oneself which i find can be problematic for many reasons i tried to explain here
How do you feel about this black feminist group and their supporters/members calling black women disagreeing with this concept "house negros" ?
Well, arent swimming pools mixed ?
As for bathrooms and locker rooms, it's another matters as it comes down to nudity.
What ? I think you've been going to the bathroom the wrong way...
Well, arent swimming pools mixed ?
As for bathrooms and locker rooms, it's another matters as it comes down to nudity.
I understand the concept that different discrimination are adding and why it could lead to separatist groups.So what are you thoughts on intersectionality and how it lends credence to the idea of separatist group?
Are you saying that separatist groups aren't a good way forward?
Yeah, my bad, I thought they meant bathroom as "salle de bain" where you take shower. But they meant toilets. :"""")
There are women specific pool times in many places.
Well there you see, we do have separated spaces, cause of the taboo of nudity.
That is the context behind that segregation.
I understand the concept that different discrimination are adding and why it could lead to separatist groups.
But is it a good way forward ? I don't think so if it stay like that and don't open the group to the world, there's risk of radicalism from inside and outside the group.
I understand the concept that different discrimination are adding and why it could lead to separatist groups.
But is it a good way forward ? I don't think so if it stay like that and don't open the group to the world, there's risk of radicalism from inside and outside the group.
I understand the concept that different discrimination are adding and why it could lead to separatist groups.
But is it a good way forward ? I don't think so if it stay like that and don't open the group to the world, there's risk of radicalism from inside and outside the group.
But that distinction isnt about color. Then again, understand that in France, we've been raised with that separating people because of color is bad, so of course it can always tickle more or less. But it doesnt mean I cant understand their need for this in a private space and it doesnt mean I'm against it. Frankly if it didnt start from that misunderstanding, I wouldnt even try to argue anymore considering how this whole controversy has been spawned by fuckin fdesouche and FN, which I dont want to support in any way.
As for specific pool times, these are also forbidden in France iirc.
But the part regarding colour is where the intersectionality is important to remember.
Many countries say they don't separate people by colour and that it isn't a problem.
I live in Sweden and plenty people here think racism is dead.
Regarding pool times I'm actually for a few segregated times since it is the only way many muslim women could take a swim.
I'd rather see those women being a part of society.
But the part regarding colour is where the intersectionality is important to remember.
Many countries say they don't separate people by colour and that it isn't a problem.
I live in Sweden and plenty people here think racism is dead.
Regarding pool times I'm actually for a few segregated times since it is the only way many muslim women could take a swim.
I'd rather see those women being a part of society.
Indeed, and this is why I understand the need for such private events. Then again, when I said that I felt this is a bit discriminating, I dont want it to sound like it's concerned trolling on my part but just basically how as a french person, things were always supposed to be this way.
I am as french as you bro' don't put it on your frenchitude §_§
Well it is though. I mean, as a french, you can't deny that in our society and in medias, this is a taboo subject.
In our media's yes and in the image we project about ourselves yes,
in our society i don't know, race was always intensely part of the french experience. It's just shapeshifting all the time. We have Zemmour saying that France is a country of white race. He is not considered extreme right.
How is that relevant? How black people critique each other in their ability to enact anti-black violence and uphold white supremacy is a conversation FOR BLACK PEOPLE. Stay in your lane.How do you feel about this black feminist group and their supporters/members calling black women disagreeing with this concept "house negros" ?
What ? He is considered far right too and close to extreme right too. Even more since his book Le Suicide Francais and his claims about Le Grand Remplacement and a possible deportation of muslims in an italian media, claiming History has seen of a lot of things.
In our society, of course we'd get reminders of ethnicities, but even then, we'd also get reminded that people are french, regardless of their origins.
If anyone cares here's a short video series about Afro French people giving personal testimonies about being black and living in France: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpwJsNR8PZ6OA49TdKBgjA1iFALTfzJih
Eh. Zemmour is definitely far right in my eyes, Sarkozy dog-whistling the far right pretty hard (Gueant too, but he is smarter about it).Golden_Pigeon said:We can speak about Fillon or Sarkozy defending the legacy of colonization. Are they far right also ? Or Claude Guéant when he says that "All civilizations are not equals" ? His he far right ?
Did he? I thought he just equivocated. Not that Melenchon is a huge ally of muslim minorities, being all laicard and all that.We don't have to go to the far right though, we got our far-left candidate Mélenchon trashing Macron for when he said that colonialism was a crime against humanity
I did, they are very good.Just to follow up: Any of the people bitching in this thread actually take the time to watch these videos?
If you didn't: You been concern trolling.
That's great, but African Americans are not immune to it even if they fought it the most from within the country.Considering I'm an American black woman myself, I'm the last one to talk about imposing American imperialism on anyone.
Again, *the French* didn't. One particular organization (far more versed into fighting antisemitism than racism) did. This argument is completely disjointed.But that's neither here nor there; righteously offended French people started this by directly referencing an American civil rights leader who fought for American civil rights causes in order to defame the French black women organizing the festival.
It's certainly not unwanted and even less irrelevant, what is unwanted is the assurance that we should patiently listen to americans explaining us everything about the world works. That they have nothing to learn from trying to learn more about France and have already all figured it out, which is - why not explicitly said in this thread, pervasive in a lot of what is being written here.If the American viewpoint was completely irrelevant and unwanted, Rosa Parks would've never left their mouths.
Awesome, and completely unrelated to what I wrote. I didn't say anywhere there is no racism in France. I was meta-commenting on a lot of posts in this thread, yours included.rant
I am sure this sounded hilarious in your head.You already broke my record with this fuckboi nonsense.
If you don't want us to speak on how your shit stinks, then put the Yu-Gi-Oh deck down and step away from the table.
Eh. Zemmour is definitely far right in my eyes, Sarkozy dog-whistling the far right pretty hard (Gueant too, but he is smarter about it).
In your eyes, he is. But not for most of the population. Fillon is neither far right and he is basically the incarnation of Zemmour blend of nationalism.
About Melenchon weird move about colonization (not so weird if you know his political profile and origin).
Fair enough re: Zemmour. His rise has been an endless source of disappointment for me.
Thanks for the link for Melenchon - his rant is hilarious as in it's pure melenchon. He does not want to say directly that colonization was bad or that calling it a crime against humanity is bad, but he is still very very angry while non-saying it.
The event that triggered this storm was the Nyansapo Festival, organised by the Afro-feminist collective Mwasi. The festival is scheduled to take place on July 28-30 in Paris and contrary to what its detractors assert, it is going to be open to all.
However, some "non-mixed" workshops reserved solely for black women, will also be set up as part of the festival. These workshops will provide a safe space for black women to have private conversations among themselves. It is true that these workshops will not welcome whites, but they will also not welcome people of Arab, Asian or Roma origin and will not even open their doors to black men.
Black women must be allowed to come together without being forced to justify their actions to people who do not face similar oppressions. They must be free to express their anger and resentment without the fear of vexing others.
In our country, black women are invisible in the public sphere. The few who dare to venture there are frequently exposed to outrageous insults, such as the former minister of justice, Christiane Taubira, who has been compared to an ape on several occasions.
Why should black women open up one of the few spheres dedicated to them to please people who already have wide access to the public sphere?
France is struggling to embrace its multicultural face. Officially, it does not recognise ethnic, religious, linguistic or cultural minorities. In this context, daring to identify as a black woman is an unbearable subversion. In France, minorities that are trying to achieve autonomy are labeled "communitarian". They are accused of threatening national cohesion and the republican French "universalist" ideal.
This ideal, however, is belied every single day by the massive discrimination that affects the non-white members of the French population, whether as they struggle to find employment or as they face police violence.
In 2014, Anne Hidalgo presented herself, without any embarrassment, as the mayor of Paris who would head the twenty white candidates that ran under the Socialist Party's ticket to become the mayors of Parisian districts. There was not a single Arab, Black or Asian person to represent the inhabitants of one of the most multicultural cities in Europe. Just like the ones that govern other French circles of power - economic, media and political the white "communitarianism" of the municipality of Paris under Hidalgo was never questioned.
To overcome systemic racism in France and in other Western democracies, it is not the minority survival initiatives that should be combatted, but the centrality of white domination.