There can be an argument though that the PS4 generation was so good because they felt the pressure of not repeating the PS3 / Xbox 360 generation.This isn’t true because when was the last time Xbox was a strong contender? … During the 360 days?
The PS4 was arguably Sonys most successful console when you combine there output of quality games and consoles sold and during this time the Xbox One wasn’t doing anything to compete.
Agreed.Never said Phil should be fired because of just the ABK. The narrative for Xbox has not changed since he has been there, Xbox game pass is the best thing he created for them but even that isn’t working out because of poor management. They would not even need game pass if things were managed correctly.
I am 100% sure Xbox would prefer selling games for $70 like the competition instead of beggging for $10 a month. But they can’t because consumers don’t believe in there ability to release high quality first party games like Sony and Nintendo which is why game pass was created.
But they are not selling as much hardware, and whatever they are selling is netting them a loss of up to $200.This is nonsensical. Designing and putting hardware on stores is not Xbox problem. The problem is making software for those consoles, dropping the hardware if anything would make their troubles worse.
God damn it Rivet, I thought you died or something.I agree they must be thinking about pulling the plug, but I don't see them as a 3rd party publisher on the long run. It just doesn't fit MS strategy. They'd prefer selling what they can and moving on.
All hell broke loose.I'm out of the loop, what happened yesterday?
But they are not selling as much hardware, and whatever they are selling is netting them a loss of up to $200.
If Xbox sold 20 million Xbox Series X|S consoles, that means they have lost roughly $3 billion in just selling those consoles. That's a lot of money that Xbox could have saved if they were more like Sega or EA.
Innovation and choice in cloud gaming was protected.I'm out of the loop, what happened yesterday?
The last time we heard about the $200 loss (up to) was only 6 months ago. (Nov 2022).MS was selling the XSX at loss at launch 2.5 years ago. I find it very hard to believe that's still the case.
Microsoft / ABK acquisition was blocked by the CMA (UK).I'm out of the loop, what happened yesterday?
Care to comment on the thread with your own reasons so we can have a rather productive discussion?
Feel free to present your arguments -- ideally, with the same level of detail, stats, and reasons -- why Xbox is likely to continue with the console hardware. That'd actually more fruitful of a discussion than whatever your comment will lead to.
The average review score of first party games from MS since the new consoles launched is at like an 85. Their exclusives may have been bad much of last gen, but that’s no longer the caseI thought it was curious when Spencer started saying that exclusives were bad. Now I realize he meant THEIR exclusives.
BRB...setting up an bot to post daily...I'm immortal now bitches.I am starting to think that each time someone makes an xbox doom post it delays their death by a day.
My arguments are that Xbox does not believe in the physical console model anyway. They believe in the Cloud gaming model more and reaching out to 3 billion gamers -- not just 150 million high-end console users.XBOX was in a much worse situation 6 years ago and even so, what is happening today is that the XBOX console continues to exist and with an announcement already made that there are more consoles in development.
XBOX console is a differential product and of great social value for MS. Its liquidation should be the result of a ruinous situation and even in the XBO era this did not happen. XBOX console is the main channel of subscriptions, a source of publicity and income. Liquidating the console business would suddenly cause the deterioration of the business of subscriptions, microtransactions, etc., which, as seen in MS's finances, is a healthy and essential source of income.
From there. Unlike the XBO era. MS, without the need for ABK, has a conglomerate of Studios and more than enough resources to supply its console and cloud gaming and gamepass business with content at the same time (cloud gaming Is inded based on console hardware).
And, despite what happens with ABK, it is clear that MS is going to continue in the process of acquiring more Studios and MAYBE publishers.
That the time will come when MS terminate with physical hardware? That's for sure, and it's not just MS going to do it. Cloud gaming is the future...... but still far away. Until that one arrives, I think you're going to have XBOX consoles on the market.
I agree with. Red fall isn’t a stand alone game. Even without any of its launch issues. It would have been a better gage to release along side a bigger release.Microsoft will be fine in the long run but coming up soon Redfall will bomb hard and not help the situation at all.
Microsoft shareholders forget Xbox is even a thing.
Shareholders agree with you.
Revenue, not profit.I mean they still made 16 billion off Xbox last year. It would have to slip a lot more than it has for MS to throw it away, but I am glad you are concerned.
Console sales shouldn't be an indication. As these gets affected by the state of first party games and the state of the platform.If consoles sales are still down the next few quarters, then yeah, there is a possibility of Microsoft abandoning xbox hardware. What use would there be sticking around at that point? If it really is a supply problem, we should see massive yoy increases eventually. Time will tell.
The last time we heard about the $200 loss (up to) was only 6 months ago. (Nov 2022).
Xbox Loses As Much As $200 On Every Xbox It Sells, Phil Spencer Says
Microsoft expects to make back the money through sales of games and accessories.www.gamespot.com
Xbox could have a huge hardware sales during this holiday, which negates the downturn for 2022.
It's the best to look at their content pipe, and their studios. These are the indication of how a platform performs.
So far, MS stated they are going to buy more studios. Maybe not be a big publisher after activision blackout.
These buyout can change the dynamics of Xbox, especially if they buy a talented studios like remedy.
Exactly, that's the core of my argument.Ah, I see. Selling consoles at $100-200 loss two years after launch, that's not good.
My guess is that Gamepass isn't profitable either. MS more or less gave gamepass away for a dollar a month for a couple of years. At the same time gamepass is hurting Xbox game first and third party sales. As the Xbox platform holder MS gets a fixed licensing fee for each disc sold plus a 30% cut of any sales through their online Xbox store. If gamepass is making Xbox gamers increasingly unlikely to buy full price games outside of gamepass, that's not just hurting third party publishers but in effect MS as well, since there's less revenues coming outside of their subscription services.
The PS3 era could have been the exact same situation, but in reverse if you have just a little bad faith. The case is not as dire now, and Xbox not being as good as Sony in making consoles is not a problem (and that can be debatable, with the One X being prefered by some compared to the PS4 pro). They knew that and planned accordingly. They have already paid the costs for this generation and leaving now would be a waste. They are profitable too, just not as much as Playstation.
- Microsoft loses up to $200 per Xbox console sold. On the other hand, PS5 has been selling at a profit for nearly 2 years now.
Microsoft believe in Gamepass. Normal then to gain less from direct sales. This is again a choice from them. You can disagree with their strategy, as I do, but this is volontary and so should no be a problem unless theirs pland fail somewhere else, or they underestimate the loss/ the gains they want elsewere.The idea of selling a console at a loss is not an uncommon one. Because console platform holders recover money by selling first- and third-party games on their platform. Unfortunately, the Xbox user base now does not buy as many first or third-party games.
Gamepass is there for the long term. Them not sharing numbers is a clue that it is not as good as they want, and they have admitted as such themselves. But being slow to gain market share and not gaining enough are very different matters, so not really a problem on it's own.Talking of Game Pass, it has been 464 days since Microsoft last shared the Game Pass subscriber count.
The sales point and Gamepass numbers are the same story in this case: they are going up, just not good enough. As you are talking about the downfall of Xbox, and not their success compared to Sony, the PS5 domination is irrelevant as the Wii success did not made the Xbox 360 and PS3 doomed to failure, just made it harder for them to prosper. You should compare Xbox to failures like the Gamecube(beaten by the first Xbox for GOD sake) and the Wii U. Both consoles were worse failures than the Series and Nintendo did recover so no reason for Xbox not to try the same.
- Microsoft had earlier stopped sharing console sales numbers in Oct. 2015 because of poor console sales.
- Then the argument was that console sales do not matter, and Game Pass subscribers are all that matter. Now, Microsoft has stopped sharing that as well.
- Before Microsoft stopped sharing Game Pass numbers, Game Pass had "missed its subscription target" for 2 consecutive years. Then it all went quiet.
- Talking of console sales, Xbox is being outsold by PS5 by nearly 3:1 now. PS5 has started averaging 24 million consoles per year recently. Xbox Series X|S is averaging 8.5 million consoles per year. And this is after investing more than $10 billion dollars in the division, only for acquisition.
This is more what you want/ believe, not reality. Why Xbox was not axed after the Xbox one reveal fiasco? Because Phil Spencer convinced them to continue. He got the job close to the end of 2014. Gamepass was a thing in 2017. The gap is big enough to believe that Phil could have tried to compete without this and going another way if he wanted. Of course Microsoft want for Xbox to be profitable. They are now in for the long term. You do not try a 69 billions acquisition otherwise. And they are still trying to buy ABK so they need Xbox to do so. Xbox consumers who have a console are more easily converted to Gamepass than PC players so consoles still matters to Microsoft.If Microsoft stops selling consoles, they will immediately increase its profitability. The only reason why Microsoft has kept Xbox alive is the hope that one day Xbox will capture the market share and contribute to Microsoft's profits. That's the reason Microsoft invested in Xbox. But the results did not improve.
Microsoft outright said that they needed Activision Blizzard King to compete. Now that the acquisition has been blocked, how will they compete?
I believe Microsoft will soon realize that this is not working, and Xbox won't be able to capture the PS5 market share. Consequently, they will shift its business model to becoming a third-party publisher and put its games on Nintendo and PlayStation as their combined user base is ~200 million gamers who spend the most money on buying games.
This strategy will also enable Microsoft to acquire more companies and publishers without strict scrutiny.
Lastly, Microsoft's involvement with Cloud gaming and Game Pass will make it easier for Microsoft to shift to this new model.
April 2023 is the beginning of the end for the Xbox console hardware. We're witnessing history in the making.
Revenue, not profit.
And how much did they spend to make those $16 billion in revenue?
Control is one of the most popular games by Remedy. And that sold only 3 million copies on all platforms.Console sales shouldn't be an indication. As these gets affected by the state of first party games and the state of the platform.
Xbox could have a huge hardware sales during this holiday, which negates the downturn for 2022.
It's the best to look at their content pipe, and their studios. These are the indication of how a platform performs.
So far, MS stated they are going to buy more studios. Maybe not be a big publisher after activision blackout.
These buyout can change the dynamics of Xbox, especially if they buy a talented studios like remedy.
FYIXbox without the box would be an interesting strategy,lol........seriously though,some of you are so desperate for Microsoft to get out of gaming it's hilarious.Personally I have no desire for Sony to be the only ones offering a console for high end gaming.....and neither should anyone else.Competition is always better for gamers,even if it's Microsoft competition.
I appreciate your detailed response and added context.I feel like you, but your post sadly do not go enough in detail into facts that would go towards a downfall of Xbox but more on what you would want them to do/ want to do if you were in their place. So I will respond to your points and explain why none of them are good enough in my opinion on their own to be signs of Xbox going third party:
The PS3 era could have been the exact same situation, but in reverse if you have just a little bad faith. The case is not as dire now, and Xbox not being as good as Sony in making consoles is not a problem (and that can be debatable, with the One X being prefered by some compared to the PS4 pro). They knew that and planned accordingly. They have already paid the costs for this generation and leaving now would be a waste. They are profitable too, just not as much as Playstation.
Microsoft believe in Gamepass. Normal then to gain less from direct sales. This is again a choice from them. You can disagree with their strategy, as I do, but this is volontary and so should no be a problem unless theirs pland fail somewhere else, or they underestimate the loss/ the gains they want elsewere.
Gamepass is there for the long term. Them not sharing numbers is a clue that it is not as good as they want, and they have admitted as such themselves. But being slow to gain market share and not gaining enough are very different matters, so not really a problem on it's own.
The sales point and Gamepass numbers are the same story in this case: they are going up, just not good enough. As you are talking about the downfall of Xbox, and not their success compared to Sony, the PS5 domination is irrelevant as the Wii success did not made the Xbox 360 and PS3 doomed to failure, just made it harder for them to prosper. You should compare Xbox to failures like the Gamecube(beaten by the first Xbox for GOD sake) and the Wii U. Both consoles were worse failures than the Series and Nintendo did recover so no reason for Xbox not to try the same.
This is more what you want/ believe, not reality. Why Xbox was not axed after the Xbox one reveal fiasco? Because Phil Spencer convinced them to continue. He got the job close to the end of 2014. Gamepass was a thing in 2017. The gap is big enough to believe that Phil could have tried to compete without this and going another way if he wanted. Of course Microsoft want for Xbox to be profitable. They are now in for the long term. You do not try a 69 billions acquisition otherwise. And they are still trying to buy ABK so they need Xbox to do so. Xbox consumers who have a console are more easily converted to Gamepass than PC players so consoles still matters to Microsoft.
Once again, I feel the same way. As I do not own a Xbox console, had never played Xbox top games outside of a few sessions a decade ago, and do not lives in the US they have never tried to please me like Sony did. So I see their failures a lot more easily than their success. And prefer them to fail and go away than possibly harm any chances of Sony continuing to give me what I have been experiencing since the PS2, because their consoles and their exclusives are some of my best gaming memories. Xbox going third party is giving me more games to play on my PS5
But what I want/ would do is not what they want or are doing. They believe on Gamepass now. And may continue for years to try. We will see what happens at E3. Even if it is not logical, a few people have asked if Starfield would be on PS5 after the CMA rejection. I want to believe, as my PC is a 1060 and even if I do have a 3060 in a portable PC I feel that the Pc version will be shit even more than usual if Tlou part I port and Jedi fallen order 2 are any indication.
This doesn't answer my question. You just posted the revenue chart.Seems pretty good
Remedy, Bethesda and obsidian are all quality studios.Control is one of the most popular games by Remedy. And that sold only 3 million copies on all platforms.
[/URL]
If Bethesda and Obsidian didn't do much, what would Remedy do for Xbox?
And as I mentioned in the OP, Xbox is averaging 8.5 million consoles per year. Even if they have a record Q4 after Starfield in which they sell 5 million consoles, they'd still sell ~11-12 million Xbox Series X|S this year. That would be 50% less than what PS5 is pacing to sell in 2023.
Remedy Entertainment said that over 10 million players had played Control by August 2021
Talking of console sales, Xbox is being outsold by PS5 by nearly 3:1 now. PS5 has started averaging 24 million consoles per year recently. Xbox Series X|S is averaging 8.5 million consoles per year. And this is after investing more than $10 billion dollars in the division, only for acquisition.
This all sounds pretty good for xbox tbh. Being 1/3 to 1/2 as sucessful as Playstation is amazing, who wouldnt want that? I am jealous as fuck.And as I mentioned in the OP, Xbox is averaging 8.5 million consoles per year. Even if they have a record Q4 after Starfield in which they sell 5 million consoles, they'd still sell ~11-12 million Xbox Series X|S this year. That would be 50% less than what PS5 is pacing to sell in 2023.
Because those studios have yet to make Xbox exclusive game.I thought with all the studios they bought already and (nothing really to show for it yet), what changes will we see with even more buy outs?
A huge holiday sale with currently no Console seller, personally I just don't see it right now. Maybe Hellblade II if it comes out this year. Maybe.
As for 6 years ago, Microsoft did decide to kill Xbox back then. It was saved only because of Phil's vision of Cloud and a (eventually) console-less gaming division.
Nintendo always stopped any of the big three from doing anything they want. MS was always just an asterisk, never really a factor(Outside of the 7th gen, the only time they were truly competitive).
I think it may happen once someone else enters the ring, no way Microsoft folds xbox and leaves Sony to just do what they want. That would be awful for all of us. Need someone like apple to jump in the ring first.