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[LRKD]

I think this is the clear problem for using they as he/she. You have to rearrange your sentences to make it logical. Using these examples somebody made earlier,

"Oh yeah, what was he doing before?" Makes sense "Oh yeah, what was they doing before?" Doesn't make sense

"Oh yeah, what were he doing before?" Doesn't make sense. "Oh yeah, what were they doing before?" Makes sense

You don't need to play sentence scramble when using either She/He you can swap them out easily in sentence, and have it still make sense. But, with they you can't just swap it with she/he, you have to rewrite the sentence for it to sound natural. If they, was truly intended to work the same as she/he you wouldn't have to switch words around for it to make sense.

They can work as a singular pronoun, it can make sense, and be used naturally. But it doesn't work the same as she/he, and that is the biggest problem with using it like it does. I think that If you need to use a different pronoun then she/he so you can feel like you, make up your own. It'd make more sense, and be easier for everyone then using they/them.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

When would anyone use a pronoun to describe an unstated person or group of people?

I would say it's pretty common, actually. For example, something like "I went to the club but they wouldn't let me in." It's pretty clear who "they" points to even though they are completely unstated.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yes, of course. I must not be understanding what you're saying, because those are pronouns, so why would someone who overuses them think Japanese doesn't have pronouns?

Because the conversation then usually goes like this:

Teacher: You don't need to use those pronouns every single time. It's okay to omit them entirely.
Student: zomg Japanese doesn't have pronouns!
Teacher: Not quite...

or

Student: Why aren't there any pronouns in this sentence?
Teacher: It doesn't need them
Student: zomg Japanese doesn't have pronouns!
Teacher: Not quite...

If they aren't said or written, then I would argue that yes, that does mean they disappear. The subject being implied does not mean that invisible or inaudible pronouns are being used. It just means they aren't necessary.

They disappear from your pen or voice, but they don't disappear from your brain. Their function is necessary for the understanding of the context, but their explicit production is not necessary for this understanding, which is why they are dropped. If you were to "diagram" that sentence, their function as noun placeholders would have to be represented somehow, but in functional use, they're dropped. They're implied but not necessarily voiced. Because they don't need to be.

If you did that it would sound extremely unnatural and awkward in almost every scenario.

Yeah I know which is why we don't do that lol. My point is that we already know the underlying context that can "decode" that sentence and fill in the pronouns because we already understand what they are even though we don't voice them. It's to demonstrate that information isn't "lost", it's just "compressed".

As an algorithm can compress or decompress a data file, the context of a sentence can both compress and decompress a sentence. You can take a sentence full of pronouns, and then using the context, drop all the pronouns, yet still retain the exact same meaning. This process can also work in reverse, which is what I alluded to.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I would say it's pretty common, actually. For example, something like "I went to the club but they wouldn't let me in." It's pretty clear who "they" points to even though they are completely unstated.

"The Club" is just shorthand for someone working at the club though.. it's not completely unstated at all. They is also used generically to refer to a not-specifically identified, but brought into context person. People basically refer to businesses as people, whether using a pronoun or not.. "The club wouldn't let me in."

There's like a .0001% chance someone would confuse "the bar" for who said something in your sentence.. but it's still super far fetched... "the bar told me a hilarious thing" would just be incredibly strange lol.. the subject in that context is obviously "John."

 

[01011001]

I would say it's pretty common, actually. For example, something like "I went to the club but they wouldn't let me in." It's pretty clear who "they" points to even though they are completely unstated.

in your example, they is referring to multiple people tho. the people at the club wouldn't let me in. the club is not a singular person

 

[Deleted member 17706]

in your example, they is referring to multiple people tho. the people at the club wouldn't let me in.

Yes, that was my point. "The people/staff at the club" was unstated before the pronoun for them was used and that's not a barrier to understanding.

 

[01011001]

Yes, that was my point. "The people/staff at the club" was unstated before the pronoun for them was used and that's not a barrier to understanding.

correct, but if you were talking about a singular person and said "they wouldn't let me in" it would be confusing, and the other person wouldn't know if there were multiple people or just 1 person. making it confusing, and that's why the word they is becoming more and more confusing

 

[Pol Pot]

@Zefah changing the topic to grammatical japanese, and pretending it's all about efficiency of language in general, is a hell of a derail.
Cheers.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

@Zefah changing the topic to grammatical japanese, and pretending it's all about efficiency of language in general, is a hell of a derail.
Cheers.

1. I am not the one who brought the topic of Japanese into this conversation.

2. I am not pretending that it is all about efficiency of language. I think Japanese, which largely does not rely on any gendered pronouns, is more efficient in many scenarios (and not so much in others), for example, and do not want to force a he/she equivalent into that language. My only positions are that he/she/his/her are integral parts of the English language, are not pointless, and that we should not embrace the use of they/them as pronouns for people's names or in places where using gendered pronouns makes more sense.

 

[99Luffy]

correct, but if you were talking about a singular person and said "they wouldn't let me in" it would be confusing, and the other person wouldn't know if there were multiple people or just 1 person. making it confusing, and that's why the word they is becoming more and more confusing

Thats how its always been though, the definition hasnt changed. If youre writing a news article and youre referring to a masked robber who could be a man or a woman, you would say they. Some people say 'he or she robbed a bank' but that sounds really wordy and silly imo.

It can be confusing I agree, but language should be more specific anyways. In your own example theres nothing wrong with saying 'the club didnt let me in' or 'the bouncer didnt let me in.' You can say he or she and it would still be confusing if theres multiple people that you could be referring to.

 

[highrider]

Causes me no confusion I’m calling em like I see em, fuck the dumb shit.

 

[JSoup]

Anyone with any grasp of the English language would know "they" meant "John".

You have more faith in humans than I do.

 

[DeaDPo0L84]

I have no tolerance or patience for people using their personal issues or disorders to force societal pressure on me to ignore common sense and verbiage we've used literally forever,it's nonsense.

I don't mean nor wish any harm on anyone who seeks to be called by particular pronouns, but me calling them a different pronoun is not the remedy to their problems, they need professional help and I don't remember signing up to be their doctor.

 

[teezzy]

My pronouns are Spaghetti/Lasagna

YOU FUCKIN BIGOTS

 

[Coolwhhip]

It's refreshing and actually relieving to see everyone debating on just the simple "they/them" pronouns instead of this whole "neo-pronouns" mess.


I only know one person that used they/them as their pronouns (although they now have changed it to he/them or something similar, so I will use "he" for them from here forward.) He's are a very cool person but still quite young and grew up in Portland, OR...so I imagine the whole non-binary thing is almost cultural there.

From his blog entries from a couple of years ago, it was very obvious that he had been suffering gender dysphoria since his early teen years as female puberty started feminizing his body. I can certainly understand that as I suffered in the opposite direction.

I believe that he hasn't gone completely "he/him" yet due to worrying about the possibility of gaining new dysphoria that the effects of testosterone therapy would have on his body. That's where I believe a lot of non-binary people come from...they don't really want the sex-characteristics of either sex.


Really, though...most people have things about their bodies that they are self-conscious about. It's normal for everyone at some point in our lives. We all have to grow up and grow old, and our bodies will be going through all sorts of changes all our lives. It's what we can accept and live with while living in society that drives a lot of this I suppose.

That said, where before it was such a miniscule amount of people suffering gender dysphoria and needing to transition sex just so we could fit into society without wishing for death every day, now it seems to be a growing social craze to go against social norms. Far too many people want to be different or special...it's becoming a "look at me" type thing. Many of these young people self-diagnose and collect gender neo-pronouns and disabilities and/or mental illnesses like they are Pokemon.


I just want to blend in and not be seen. That's what it used to be for most transgender people...although I'm so tired of what the umbrella term "transgender" is becoming that I usually now just use the old medical term transsexual (even though that's apparently a no-no word now.)

That's why I hate those hypocritical internet movements. It's never about the real issues, like the one you have. They don't care about you, just about looking 'good' on the internet themselves.

 

[captainraincoat]

Me when i read the gender field on a resume

 

[mcjmetroid]

Pronouns are a lot of hot garbage that people fell for because in this world nobody wants to upset anybody.

I'm gay myself and as such feel more feminine than most other guys. Some people have this feeling more than other. I understand that but I'm just not convinced of this non binary stuff.
I have to believe it deludes years of hard work made by transgender people for acceptance. I've met transgender people that hate these fuckers.

Jim Sterling probably lost his subscribers because he is supposed to be a gaming Channel and started talking about stuff 99.9% of gamers and people don't give a flying shit about.

Think about it like..
How boring do you have to be to talk about your own sexuality on a hobby channel? It should be a private small part of your personality not one of your major traits.

 

[highrider]

I always say it’s pretty mean spirited and unnecessary to fight that battle for anyone really, with the exception of our law makers. I don’t want trans people to experience any discriminatory behavior or violence, and I think the pronouns should be respected if someone is obviously presenting as male or female.

It’s the breadth of trans people, when and how they became that way, how many male or female traits did they fully develop. It seems silly to expect society at large to be able to make these delineated judgements across such a broad spectrum accurately or in an equally enlightened way so to speak. I don’t know the solution. I can only identify what isn’t working really. I still don’t know what I’d call Hannah Gadsby in a social situation and would avoid having to

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Here's my experience with the confusion of using "they" (some people think it doesn't exist)

My wife who I have always referred to as she would now like to be referred to as they. I don't have any moral issue with it, but it does confuse me when trying to use they in a sentence. If I'm thinking about a singular person I want to use he and she naturally, because that is a standard grammatical convention that I grew up with and the speech pathway is wired in my brain like that. It's not that it's grammatically immutable or even technically incorrect, but when I think of a plural group of people the word they comes out of my mouth, a singular person it's she or he.

So far I have never been able to get it right casually in a sentence because of this automatic tendency, and I realize immediately afterwards I should have used the word they and then I feel bad for not saying what that person prefers and it's completely disruptive to my thought process. This seems to get down to the heart of it for me, it's my thoughts that I'm expressing and my thought is he or she, and someone else is telling me I have to change how I think of them, and in order to get someone's preferred pronouns correct they have to tell you what to think of them and it's probably not what you were already thinking.

P.S. The "they" in the previous sentence makes sense to me when referring to a singular person who is unknown and it could be anyone

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Pronouns are a lot of hot garbage that people fell for because in this world nobody wants to upset anybody.

I'm gay myself and as such feel more feminine than most other guys. Some people have this feeling more than other. I understand that but I'm just not convinced of this non binary stuff.
I have to believe it deludes years of hard work made by transgender people for acceptance. I've met transgender people that hate these fuckers.

Jim Sterling probably lost his subscribers because he is supposed to be a gaming Channel and started talking about stuff 99.9% of gamers and people don't give a flying shit about.

Think about it like..
How boring do you have to be to talk about your own sexuality on a hobby channel? It should be a private small part of your personality not one of your major traits.

The odd thing about this whole thing about re-labeling people is that government forms might need readjusting (more of an admin hassle), but in everyday life how often does someone even get referred to a him, her, they? Almost never. People call you by your first name or Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. Last Name.

So for anyone going out there telling the world on Twitter or their Outlook work signature (which I've seen) to be referred to a certain gender, it's really going out of the scope of labeling because if there's Tom, Bob, Frank and Sam chatting, they are going to refer to each other by name. Not him or her much at all. Nobody gives a shit about gender labels because hardly anyone talks about each other like that. And if someone does do that to you, you arent around anyway it hear it because you arent going to be called a mislabel often if you are standing there because they'll likely call you by name.

So to make a giant stink about it is looking for attention, since in everyday life most people arent even going to be called a him or they. And for official documents, just refile a profile change for the handful of docs that care enough to have a gender box.

And if someone doesn't even care about the re-label but wants people to know they are trans by telling everyone "I'm a they", why do you care so much to make people think about gender and sexuality about you? Most of the time, people don't think of that to begin with, so to bring it up first like it's an important factor in life to let everyone know you are trans at first interaction is odd.

 

[Soodanim]

I’ve been thinking about the “They” issue lately and why it causes cognitive dissonance for me. I even did a tiny bit of reading today, without having seen this thread. What I found was that “they” has been accepted in British English for a long time, but the usage we’re discussing is not the usage that has been common and accepted.

The two main points for me and why I can’t easily accept it as a gender pronoun are:
1. We are animals, and all other animals go by their sex. Therefore, intuitively, humans are by default referred to by their sex. I have to override my instinct/brain to say otherwise, because that’s how I process people. There’s of course it, but that’s ever so slightly dehumanising unless you like being an object. This of course leads into the question of “When does Y become X?”, and the answer is I don’t currently know because I only know one person in transition. Maybe it’s a “You know it when you see it” situation, based on the visual characteristics humans use to identify the sexes in the first place.

2. “They” in historical use tends to be for unknowns entities, and we understand singular they in the context set up by the initial reference to the subject. Using it for known entities causes confusion, as per the OP. I see it all the time on Discord, which seems to be a trans magnet. Quite simply, “they” is a shit word to use. I get that it leads to therearenow15standards.jpg that everyone despises, but I’d be much happier with a word that fits into sentences as a direct replacement for he/she/it.

I know from having skimmed the start and end of the thread that these points have been covered already, but I’ve typed it now so I’m not deleting it.

 

[BouncyFrag]

Mothers are now ‘birthing person’.

 

[nightmare-slain]

“So I was on Resetera yesterday”

that’s your problem. stopped reading right there.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Shouldn't the human race be advanced enough at this point to have more pressing issues and/or developments to attend to?

This is what prolonged periods of relative peace and stability in developed countries do to the populace. You'd think the most progress would be made when people are free to further their species in relative comfort, not worrying about their next meal or if they're going to get gunned down in their sleep or whatever, but no. Time has proven again and again that, as a species, we are most efficient when our feet are held to the fire. When people are safe they become stagnant, and stagnation leads to boredom, and boredom leads to this bullshit.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

People should be free to identify how they choose. I should also be free to not give a flying fuck what you identify as. Just like Jim's channel; I didn't care before, I don't care now.

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

My pronouns are Spaghetti/Lasagna

YOU FUCKIN BIGOTS

That's cause ur cheesy