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[NeoIkaruGAF]

Can someone explain to me what it means when a girl uses she/her or a guy using He/Him?

I googled it and I still don't understand what the fuck it means. I mean if you're a women (biological) aren't you a she/her anyways? And same with the dude?

Oh you sweet summer child.

If you don't state your pronouns, you're sus as fuck. Do you want people to assume your gender?

(see, this goes deep)

 

[StormCell]

Maybe I'm just an out of touch asshole, but I feel like the pronouns I choose to say are up to me. If I want to avoid a wrong call, I'll just refer to you as it, and you can go build a bridge.

And the best way to avoid pronoun confusion is to just stick to the descriptions the majority can easily understand.

 

[K' Dash]

I got banned in that same thread for saying his content was really bad before the "coming out" thing.

If there was quality content people would stay, maybe if you don't make your videos around being non binary and drop the hate/angry act, people would stop unsubbing?

 

[InterMusketeer]

English isn't my native language, but I come across "they" being used for individuals of whom the gender isn't currently known all the time. Like "Have you met the new teacher? No, I haven't attended their class yet." It sounds natural to me anyway.

I agree that it's confusing that "they" can refer to individuals as well as to groups, but if I'm not wrong that's a flaw that already existed in the language. It just gets magnified as more and more people start referring to themselves as "they."

 

[99Luffy]

Maybe I'm just an out of touch asshole, but I feel like the pronouns I choose to say are up to me. If I want to avoid a wrong call, I'll just refer to you as it, and you can go build a bridge.

And the best way to avoid pronoun confusion is to just stick to the descriptions the majority can easily understand.

Pronoun confusion is the point of they/them. Its a catch all.

 

[StormCell]

Pronoun confusion is the point of they/them. Its a catch all.

In some circumstances, yes. It's the other scenarios where it can become confusing. Still, I believe it's up to the speaker and not anyone else.

 

[Hatemachine]

I like how we slowly have more and more political discussion creeping back in.

 

[Reptars Revenge]

I write a lot of legal documents and "they" and "their" are timeless catch alls

 

[poppabk]

I guess it can get awkward when the person is right next to you, perhaps, but in that case i guess I'd ask them what their name was with a smile and go from there~

What instances did you have in mind?

I'm guessing something like:
"George and Lisa have come to an agreement, he will not enter the property"
Versus
"George and Lisa have come to an agreement, they will not enter the property"
I'm guessing that lawyers don't write things like this already though, and use the name no matter what for clarity.
I do think that it can be confusing.

 

[Tschumi]

I'm guessing something like:
"George and Lisa have come to an agreement, he will not enter the property"
Versus
"George and Lisa have come to an agreement, they will not enter the property"
I'm guessing that lawyers don't write things like this already though, and use the name no matter what for clarity.
I do think that it can be confusing.

I dunno I'd imagine it might be worded differently

"Neither of them will enter the property" comes to mind in the binary

"The former will not enter the property"

Or

"The defendant will not enter the property" i dunno

Note on edit: sorry it's pushing midnight I'm pretty tired

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Again while I agree, I'm trying to keep politics out of this as the focus of my post is more on clarity of language. I guess what I'm trying to say is if they want a different pronoun then fine, but choosing one that is generally used as a plural could be extremely dangerous in some contexts (law, medical, science etc). I can see this causing some real issues one day. Why not use something else?

This is some good concern trolling. If a lawyer, police officer, scientist or doctor gets confused because they think a single person is actually plural people then you’ve got bigger problems.

This "they" thing will never catch on, but it can lead to confusion. And also as jigglet said doesn't even make sense as the plural term is already used.

If there's a meeting with 10 people at work and only one person has an issue, it can be summed up as "his or her view" is different.

It's a big difference between that and summing it up as "their view" is different.

 

[GeorgPrime]

Firstly if this is considered political I apologize and mods please delete this.

Anyway I just want to stress I am not here to debate gender issues. It's been done to death and I don't think I have much to contribute to that discussion today. What I want to talk about is how confusing and potentially dangerous it is (outside of a social context)

So I was on Resetera yesterday and read this post about Jim Sterling and made all sorts of very confusing references to "they" - what made it particularly confusing was the youtube thumbnail actually contained two people - was the poster referring to a partner? Co-host? A show guest? Who is that other person? Or was it Jim Sterling himself?

Here's the original post:

Ever since Jim (and they are happy to still be referred to as Jim) came out as Non-Binary in late January, their channel has seen a somewhat dramatic loss in subscribers. Before they made this life choice public, they were pushing the 1 million barrier. Now, over the course of the past 4 months, they have seen their numbers bleed as far back as 895k and still falling. It has become such an obvious issue for them, they made a video about the subject:

(don't need to watch the video, I just posted it here so you can see that second person in the thumbnail)



I figured it out easily enough. However it got me wondering - isn't this potentially dangerous in some contexts? If a police report makes ambigious reference to "they" and is confused with plural "they"? Legal documents where lots of money is at stake making vague references to they owing they? Scientific research about studies where it really matters if it's one test subject or many?

Again putting aside all the debates about genders and so forth, it does make me wonder if this isn't going to cause some real problems one day (unrelated to social inequality or whatever the supporters advocate). Precision in language is important. And in some contexts (law, science, medicine) it's absolutely essential.

i dont care for those pronouns at all. If you get upset about it, its not my problem

 

[GymWolf]

I can assure you that when this people need something from the police\doctors etc., they cut all the crap and use the pronons that normal people use, this shit only exist on twitter or when these mongoloids have no personal interest at risk, police doesn't have the time to deal with this time waster bullshit.

 

[GymWolf]

It's ridiculous anyone has to be tippy toeing around. Let's talk it out. Freedom of speech. That's how we resolve things. If I'm wrong I'll be happy to be proven wrong. Use arguments not censorship.

I personally saw that astro uber cunt lecturing a guy with a wot because he was "misgendered" because the guy called him bruh in a friendly way...

Who the fuck take a forum bruh nomenclature that seriously?!

 

[jason10mm]

Oh you sweet summer child.

If you don't state your pronouns, you're sus as fuck. Do you want people to assume your gender?

(see, this goes deep)

I especially like it when there is a website with a full editorial board, all with he/him or she/her, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is either a balding bearded dude that is CLEARLY a man or a danger haired heavy set lady that is CLEARLY a woman. No confusion, ambiguity, or transitioning. But they do it anyway to virtue signal.

 

[420bits]

It's deluded nonsense. Just don't pay any attention to it. Normal people in the real world don't use "they" to refer to a single person (small exceptions apply).

I was watching the show Billions when I first encountered the whole "They" thing. For the past 20-whatever years I've been working in a servicedesk and helping other people with their -computer problems. Believe me when I say I have heard some REALLY stupid things.
But "they" is one of the few moments nowadays where my mind was blown by how fucking retarded it is.

Can't remember the conversation entirely but it ended up with something like the following logic.

If you are going out to lunch with other people the correct way to say it would be, word for word: "They plural, are going out to lunch".
The phrase "They are going out to lunch" could cause confusion because it would imply that the person who are out to lunch is nonbinary and not 2 people.

So they just reversed the entire worlds dictionary to fit their narrative...

I don't give 2 shits if someone wants so say he is a she or a she is a he, but there is a limit to how much stupid I can accept in my life.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Can someone explain to me what it means when a girl uses she/her or a guy using He/Him?

I googled it and I still don't understand what the fuck it means. I mean if you're a women (biological) aren't you a she/her anyways? And same with the dude?

It's an attempt to normalize the declaration of pronouns to supposedly make it easier for those who identify in unconventional ways.

They want the world to know that they Care and are an Ally.

It's virtue signaling.

 

[99Luffy]

In some circumstances, yes. It's the other scenarios where it can become confusing. Still, I believe it's up to the speaker and not anyone else.

Yes its certainly up to the speaker to be confused and just say 'it.' And its certainly up to the listener to judge your life choices.

 

[StormCell]

Yes its certainly up to the speaker to be confused and just say 'it.' And its certainly up to the listener to judge your life choices.

Hmm... It doesn't like the way I speak, and so it wishes to judge me for it, huh? I wonder, does it hate fire??

 

[AJUMP23]

One of the best things about studying ancient languages is when you get to the Greek, you get to see how a precise language works. I mean they had 4 words for love, just to describe different of love. From Erotic (eros) to Sacrificial (agape). The precision helps people define and understand. Losing precision in society and language will only dilute and confuse everyone, creating issues where there should be none.

 

[GymWolf]

I was watching the show Billions when I first encountered the whole "They" thing. For the past 20-whatever years I've been working in a servicedesk and helping other people with their -computer problems. Believe me when I say I have heard some REALLY stupid things.
But "they" is one of the few moments nowadays where my mind was blown by how fucking retarded it is.

Can't remember the conversation entirely but it ended up with something like the following logic.

If you are going out to lunch with other people the correct way to say it would be, word for word: "They plural, are going out to lunch".
The phrase "They are going out to lunch" could cause confusion because it would imply that the person who are out to lunch is nonbinary and not 2 people.

So they just reversed the entire worlds dictionary to fit their narrative...

I don't give 2 shits if someone wants so say he is a she or a she is a he, but there is a limit to how much stupid I can accept in my life.

Once again, this people doesn't use pronons when they order a pizza or prenote a place at the restaurant or any occasion when the confusion can cause real problem to them, their believes\ideology is not really that strong except for few crazy cases.

 

[Rival]

I couldn’t care less how anyone wants to refer to themselves or live their lives but I’m never going to use “they” when I’m talking about someone to someone else. “Hey Bob did you hear that Pat got a promotion at work?” “Why yes I did! They certainly deserved it after they’ve been working there for so long.”

 

[jason10mm]

I couldn’t care less how anyone wants to refer to themselves or live their lives but I’m never going to use “they” when I’m talking about someone to someone else. “Hey Bob did you hear that Pat got a promotion at work?” “Why yes I did! They certainly deserved it after they’ve been working there for so long.”

But what of this is Pat?

Do they still do that sketch? Or have they tried to scrub it from existence?

 

[funkygunther]

This "they" thing will never catch on, but it can lead to confusion. And also as jigglet said doesn't even make sense as the plural term is already used.

If there's a meeting with 10 people at work and only one person has an issue, it can be summed up as "his or her view" is different.

It's a big difference between that and summing it up as "their view" is different.

you and jigglet need to define your adjectives before we go any further, you need to tell me what a “big” difference means and they (did I suddenly confuse or lose you now) tell me what “extremely” dangerous means then I am free to bring my own definition of these to discussion to which I will say no, it does not make a big difference, and no it is not extremely dangerous

 

[Rentahamster]

I figured it out easily enough.

Problem solved then, right? Language is as much about context as it is about the words themselves.

If you could figure it out easily enough, then why even think it's a huge problem to begin with?

However it got me wondering - isn't this potentially dangerous in some contexts? If a police report makes ambigious reference to "they" and is confused with plural "they"? Legal documents where lots of money is at stake making vague references to they owing they? Scientific research about studies where it really matters if it's one test subject or many?

There are tools to make language as clear or as ambiguous as the writer/speaker intends. If you could figure it out easily enough, why can't they? Furthermore, if the specificities of a particular case necessitate the removal of as many potential ambiguities as possible, there are tools available to make that possible. Technical works are not written in colloquial vernacular, so your concern is misplaced.

There are languages in the world that have ambiguous pronouns or no pronouns at all and they operate in the modern world just fine. From the perspective of language and communication, I don't think you need to be as worried as you are.

 

[Pol Pot]

They/Their has always been a grammatically correct way of referring to an individual where the gender was not known.

"We just hired a new bartender."
"Yeah? Where did they work before?"

 

[xrnzaaas]

If a person started to talk to me in non-binary pronouns I would've just walked away and didn't bother to guess how to adress them properly in each sentence.

 

[99Luffy]

Hmm... It doesn't like the way I speak, and so it wishes to judge me for it, huh? I wonder, does it hate fire??

Aww did it get triggered? It can speak any way it wants. But like I said it will be judged accordingly.

 

[Bragr]

Isn't the issue that "they" and other new pronouns are subjective? that in scientific terms it's impossible to be male and female at the same time, so in theory, calling yourself "they" it's the same as calling yourself "hippo happ yokka hokka ukko ikky tukko ukka ikkkko haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay".

A person can demand that they are named based on subjectively chosen pronouns, and attack people as derogatory if they refuse to.

I might be completely off here, but if that is the case, calling people "they" is not a good thing and should not be commended.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

They/Their has always been a grammatically correct way of referring to an individual where the gender was not known.

"We just hired a new bartender."
"Yeah? Where did they work before?"

As a pronoun for general nouns like occupations and such, sure, but not as a pronoun for names or when referring to specific individuals.

"Hey, remember John from high school? We just hired him at the bar."
"Oh yeah, what were they doing before?"

Would make you sound like a fucking moron.

edited: for clarity since people were getting hung up on the use of 'was'.

 

[LocalE]

As a pronoun for general nouns like occupations and such, sure, but not as a pronoun for names or when referring to specific individuals.

"Hey, remember John from high school? We just hired him at the bar."
"Oh yeah, what was they doing before?"

Would make you sound like a fucking moron.

"Oh yeah, what were they doing before?"

 

[Deleted member 17706]

"Oh yeah, what were they doing before?"

Still makes you sound pretty dumb if a name precedes it.

"So, John and I were at the bar the other day, and they told me the most hilarious thing!"

"Who told you what?"

As soon as you have identified a specific individual, "they" no longer works in English. If we're inventing shit, might as well use Xe/Xer and not try to recycle existing words that already have established uses.

 

[Pol Pot]

As a pronoun for general nouns like occupations and such, sure, but not as a pronoun for names or when referring to specific individuals.

"Hey, remember John from high school? We just hired him at the bar."
"Oh yeah, what was they doing before?"

Would make you sound like a fucking moron.

When the gender isn't known, they/their is grammatically correct.

 

[funkygunther]

As a pronoun for general nouns like occupations and such, sure, but not as a pronoun for names or when referring to specific individuals.

"Hey, remember John from high school? We just hired him at the bar."
"Oh yeah, what was they doing before?"

Would make you sound like a fucking moron.

asking “what was they” also makes you sound like a fucking moron, but it’s always best to not judge people’s use of language when the meaning is so easily discernible

 

[Rentahamster]

"Oh yeah, what was they doing before?"

Shouldn't that be "what were they doing"?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Shouldn't that be "what were they doing"?

Sure, but even with that, it sounds really dumb as a pronoun to a name.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

it’s always best to not judge people’s use of language when the meaning is so easily discernible

Depends on what the goal of the conversation is, to be honest. If it's someone you don't give a shit about and you just want to move on with your business, then yeah, you're not going to correct their language.

As I was writing this, I realized I use "their" as the pronoun for "someone." Again, it works naturally for general nouns, but not once you've centered in on a specific individual with a name.

 

[funkygunther]

Depends on what the goal of the conversation is, to be honest. If it's someone you don't give a shit about and you just want to move on with your business, then yeah, you're not going to correct their language.

As I was writing this, I realized I use "their" as the pronoun for "someone." Again, it works naturally for general nouns, but not once you've centered in on a specific individual with a name.

ah good, glad we got the keyword “depends” in there

 

[Pol Pot]

Depends on what the goal of the conversation is, to be honest. If it's someone you don't give a shit about and you just want to move on with your business, then yeah, you're not going to correct their language.

As I was writing this, I realized I use "their" as the pronoun for "someone." Again, it works naturally for general nouns, but not once you've centered in on a specific individual with a name.

At that point I guess it depends on what that specific individual prefers.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

At that point I guess it depends on what that specific individual prefers.

You were talking about grammatical correctness, not individual preferences.

 

[FreedomOfSpeech]

Maybe I'm just an out of touch asshole, but I feel like the pronouns I choose to say are up to me.

Where have you been?

Forcing others to enable your delusions is the name of the game here.

 

[Pol Pot]

I was. Then you added a name. I didn't. You did. A traditionally male name. How about Ashley? Or Taylor? They/their is grammatically correct.
Outside of that, it's just respect.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I was. Then you added a name. I didn't. You did. A traditionally male name. How about Ashley? Or Taylor? They/their is grammatically correct.
Outside of that, it's just respect.

I added a name to illustrate the point that it is not always a grammatically correct way of referring to an individual where the gender is unknown. Once a name has been established, it becomes incredibly unnatural and awkward.

When you're presented with a name and still don't know the gender, you ask or take a guess and get corrected.

You call it respect, but I call it unreasonable. If I were in a situation where I had to be professional with someone who openly declares their pronouns as "they/them" I would likely just use their name and be careful to not use any pronouns.

 

[funkygunther]

Imagine saying “actually, don’t you mean HE?!” in that conversation and thinking you‘re just coming across as an objective educator of English

 

[Pol Pot]

I added a name to illustrate the point that it is not always a grammatically correct way of referring to an individual where the gender is unknown. Once a name has been established, it becomes incredibly unnatural and awkward.

When you're presented with a name and still don't know the gender, you ask or take a guess and get corrected.

You call it respect, but I call it unreasonable. If I were in a situation where I had to be professional with someone who openly declares their pronouns as "they/them" I would likely just use their name and be careful to not use any pronouns.

Come on down to South Carolina. I'll pick you up at the airport. Introduce you to my good friend Lindsey. Or Taylor. Ashley?

Men or women?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Come on down to South Carolina. I'll pick you up at the airport. Introduce you to my good friend Lindsey. Or Taylor. Ashley?

Men or women?

You tell me. I would take a wild guess and get corrected if I'm wrong. It's not a big deal. Certainly less of a big deal to me than twisting language to normalize this non-binary shit, and especially behaving like it should be the default way of approaching things.

Imagine saying “actually, don’t you mean HE?!” in that conversation and thinking you‘re just coming across as an objective educator of English

Like I said, it depends on what you want out of the conversation.

 

[funkygunther]

Like I said, it depends on what you want out of the conversation.

I’d say it depends far more on what kind of person you are

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I’d say it depends far more on what kind of person you are

Yes, that would be a factor as well. How astute.

 

[Pol Pot]

You tell me. I would take a wild guess and get corrected if I'm wrong. It's not a big deal. Certainly less of a big deal to me than twisting language to normalize this non-binary shit, and especially behaving like it should be the default way of approaching things.



Like I said, it depends on what you want out of the conversation.

If it's grammatically correct, no language has been twisted.

I’d say it depends far more on what kind of person you are

Imagine that.

 

[Coolwhhip]

If I ever make a tweeter account I'm going to fill up my bio entirely with pronouns. Instant king of tweeter.