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[Vinci]

But yeah still even if piracy is to blame for the loss of revenue the fault is squarely on the retailers of r4 cards and Nintendo (for making it possible) more than the general consumers.

It also seems somewhat connected to all the hate being generated these days about used game sales. If the companies were doing everything correctly, I'd imagine used game sales and piracy wouldn't be nearly as big an issue for them. I see this all the time in my own workplace when various department managers want to lay blame on something/anything else, rather than accept that they are (at some juncture) dropping the ball.

 

[Kilrogg]

???

I'm sorry, but how do you know this? Do you demand to see the cartridge for the game they're playing?

It's rather easy to see whether someone is using a flashcart or not, especially when they're sitting in front of you on the train/bus. As far as I know (France here), many people who use their DSes on the train in Paris are using flashcarts. It's all anecdotal evidence though, I wouldn't extrapolate anything from that, just saying. Last time I saw someone playing with their DS, it was a guy playing a legitimate copy of NSMB.

@Vinci: once again, I agree with you on used games sales.

 

[Mael]

It also seems somewhat connected to all the hate being generated these days about used game sales. If the companies were doing everything correctly, I'd imagine used game sales and piracy wouldn't be nearly as big an issue for them. I see this all the time in my own workplace when various department managers want to lay blame on something/anything else, rather than accept that they are (at some juncture) dropping the ball.

Naah used games sales is just good ole corporate greed.
Seriously when even Nintendo can't find a problem with used games you know there's nothing wrong with them.
Piracy is something else, you can't exactly let it run unchecked either.
Lots of used games means people don't like your game, piracy is something else entirely,
at least for me.

It's rather easy to see whether someone is using a flashcart or not, especially when they're sitting in front of you on the train/bus. As far as I know (France here), many people who use their DSes on the train in Paris are using flashcarts. It's all anecdotal evidence though, I wouldn't extrapolate anything from that, just saying. Last time I saw someone playing with their DS, it was a guy playing a legitimate copy of NSMB.

And now that's where it gets funny..
France here too, and well Paris is something else entirely from France I'd say as far behavior goes.
But you've got a point.
For my part I saw once a nice young girl playing a legitimate copy of nsmb :lol
That's the only I ever saw someone with a DS, then again I don't check for everyone either (and nsmb vs mode is A W E S O M E).
I still don't think France have piracy THAT rampant either (not on the scale of say...Spain),
then again that would explain why we don't see much DS games on the top5 of chartrack anymore :lol

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

Regarding the amount of people downloading Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver, would it be technically possible to somehow have made the Pokewalker absolutey mandatory in order for the game to work? For example, "lock" the game somehow until you connect with the Pokewalker from the main menu? And in order to prevent people from just putting up hacked "unlocked" copies, they could make it so you have to connect once every so often.

 

[Vinci]

Naah used games sales is just good ole corporate greed. Seriously when even Nintendo can't find a problem with used games you know there's nothing wrong with them.

That's because, whatever the reason (call it 'magic'), Nintendo games don't get as heavily pirated or sold used as others. And this is without them putting all sorts of new-game DLC or special gifts in with their titles. The other alternative is that Nintendo doesn't invest quite so much money into development as these other companies have, making the impact of some used game sales and/or piracy less of an overall issue for them.

Piracy is something else, you can't exactly let it run unchecked either.
Lots of used games means people don't like your game, piracy is something else entirely,
at least for me.

They mean similar things to me: People who are buying your title and/or pirating it don't feel its content is worth the price-tag you are offering it for. Of the two, pirating is the more extreme example. I'm actually at least somewhat convinced that pirates do so either by a continual response to earlier pirating (ie. pirating once or twice, for 'trial game' purposes, has conditioned them to use it for titles they do in fact want).

In this sense, I'd say having an easy method for demos on your systems is likely a good way to keep people from adopting piracy as a method of 'trial,' but for people who are already down that road? I'm not sure there's much to do other than price your games according to what you feel they're worth - and make sure customers know what they're worth through meaningful promotion.

 

[Mael]

That's because, whatever the reason (call it 'magic'), Nintendo games don't get as heavily pirated or sold used as others. And this is without them putting all sorts of new-game DLC or special gifts in with their titles. The other alternative is that Nintendo doesn't invest quite so much money into development as these other companies have, making the impact of some used game sales and/or piracy less of an overall issue for them.

Even then, they're on the forefront against anything piracy of their IP, they clearly see a difference there.
I mean if they could have jailed the guy that leaked NSMBW early on the web they would, that's about as extreme as a corporation can go there.
They REALLY don't care about used sales, be it Wario Land Shake, Wiimusic or NSMBW (wiimusic is living in the barginbin now :/)

They mean similar things to me: People who are buying your title and/or pirating it don't feel its content is worth the price-tag you are offering it for. Of the two, pirating is the more extreme example. I'm actually at least somewhat convinced that pirates do so either by a continual response to earlier pirating (ie. pirating once or twice, for 'trial game' purposes, has conditioned them to use it for titles they do in fact want).

In this sense, I'd say having an easy method for demos on your systems is likely a good way to keep people from adopting piracy as a method of 'trial,' but for people who are already down that road? I'm not sure there's much to do other than price your games according to what you feel they're worth - and make sure customers know what they're worth through meaningful promotion.

You're right in saying that indeed if the pirate saw the asking price as worthwhile they would buy and not rip, I mean that's why Layton 2 is a success and so is M&L3 but probably not Assassin Creed :/.

Still pirates can be dealt with, used sales is the very fabric of the market. Imean it defines the market as it is.
there's really no need to worry about used sales in the same way that car marker don't care about used sales (if publishers are so worried about it they're welcome to come into the used market because it's not going away)

 

[Kilrogg]

And now that's where it gets funny..
France here too, and well Paris is something else entirely from France I'd say as far behavior goes.

Coming from the "province" myself, as people in Paris like to call France in its entirety bar Paris, I know where you're coming from, but I don't know that pirating handheld video games is typical of Parisians .

 

[Vinci]

Even then, they're on the forefront against anything piracy of their IP, they clearly see a difference there.

The problem is, I'm not sure what that difference entails. Yes, Nintendo clearly sees a difference between used game sales and pirating - but I'm not sure if it's for X or Y reason. I might add that one possible issue they have with it is that a used game purchase is an impulse type of thing; I don't know many people, anecdotally yes, that go into a game store deliberately with the intention of buying used. They go into the store with the mindset that they're going to buy a game. If that turns out to be used, they're still buying it; they're still paying something.

With piracy, it's different - the original premise isn't to 'buy a game;' it's to pirate a game, to go to a website you know is built around that idea and indulging. So that might be the issue they have with it.

Buying something used doesn't devalue a product the same way pirating it does.

As for the companies coming into the used market concept you mentioned: That might very well be interesting; to see the 3rd parties create some sort of outlet that would sell both used and new titles, and still direct the used purchases towards the games' publishers and devs.

 

[Mael]

Coming from the "province" myself, as people in Paris like to call France in its entirety bar Paris, I know where you're coming from, but I don't know that pirating handheld video games is typical of Parisians .

That's not what I'm saying either, it's just that parisians stereotypes would tell us that it's not surprising if they do....
I'm not saying that however.

The problem is, I'm not sure what that difference entails. Yes, Nintendo clearly sees a difference between used game sales and pirating - but I'm not sure if it's for X or Y reason. I might add that one possible issue they have with it is that a used game purchase is an impulse type of thing; I don't know many people, anecdotally yes, that go into a game store deliberately with the intention of buying used. They go into the store with the mindset that they're going to buy a game. If that turns out to be used, they're still buying it; they're still paying something.

With piracy, it's different - the original premise isn't to 'buy a game;' it's to pirate a game, to go to a website you know is built around that idea and indulging. So that might be the issue they have with it.

Buying something used doesn't devalue a product the same way pirating it does.

I can't say anything more here, you've said it all, there's a clear difference between piracy and used sales indeed.
Heck the behavior is probably nothing alike (between the get it all and just get what i want too)

As for the companies coming into the used market concept you mentioned: That might very well be interesting; to see the 3rd parties create some sort of outlet that would sell both used and new titles, and still direct the used purchases towards the games' publishers and devs.

That would be really awesome and would actually liven the market a lot, but publishers are lazy bastards.
They don't want to deal with the customers (that's why there's retailers) and want all the money for themselves, that human but hardly realist.

 

[Vinci]

That would be really awesome and would actually liven the market a lot, but publishers are lazy bastards.
They don't want to deal with the customers (that's why there's retailers) and want all the money for themselves, that human but hardly realist.

I'm not so sure if it's outright laziness, or the potential issues that would arise from such a scenario. I could easily see problems with ironing out the specifics of what profit goes where and to whom. For example, Activision and EA - quite rightly - could make the argument that people come to the proposed outlet, more often than not, looking for their products. Thus, any purchase of another 3rd party's title would be as a direct result of Activision and EA's wares luring people into the store and giving that other company's title the chance to be seen and impulsively purchased. At which point, they could argue that they deserve a portion of the profit even though it wasn't their game sold.

And that's when the whole dream sort of breaks down.

 

[Mael]

I'm not so sure if it's outright laziness, or the potential issues that would arise from such a scenario. I could easily see problems with ironing out the specifics of what profit goes where and to whom. For example, Activision and EA - quite rightly - could make the argument that people come to the proposed outlet, more often than not, looking for their products. Thus, any purchase of another 3rd party's title would be as a direct result of Activision and EA's wares luring people into the store and giving that other company's title the chance to be seen and impulsively purchased. At which point, they could argue that they deserve a portion of the profit even though it wasn't their game sold.

And that's when the whole dream sort of breaks down.

I was more thinking of something along the lines of an Apple store where they're only dealing in anything Apple.
I mean Nintendo already have a store in New York dealing with anything they licence I believe.

Then again they would have to redo their packaging to make sure that people don't sell them product they can't sell (you know like making the box blue for Sega and the likes).
Or they could have a deal with a local gamestop that would rebuy their non EA branded stuffs (and with a markdown for all things that are not EA you try to sell them so as to cover the expense of having to deal with GS and all).
But yeah it's impossible for anything but the biggest publishers,STILL when I see Ubisoft and EA fucking whinning because their sales get eaten by GAME or Gamestop.....
I mean even Fnac deal in used games now, and they're like so far from dealing with anything used that it's really surprising.
At least they didn't blame the loss of sales from new game to piracy or something crappy like that, they found a way to deal with it that is not utterly anti-consumer like publisher always do.

Th emore I think about it, the more I feel that Nintendo have done less anti consumer stuffs than all the other publisher => I don't feel like having to justify to any length whether or not I buy from them...you could say that's the concept of good will.
I mean I saw the Modern Warfare on Wii, and I was seeking a competent Wii fps but after all the crap I went through with ATVI games and the more than condescending tone of IW toward their general consumers I simply decided against (that and 60 bucks? really? 10 bucks more for a 2 yo game than for what I'll pay for the latest Metroid?)

Seriously I'd probably buy more games if I knew I could send it back to the makers if I was unhappy with it.
Imoving out of an appartment into another and I was surprised to see how much Wii games I had, all due to the fact that they're actually way cheap.
I mean I fully expected to pay 60 bucks for Metroid Prime 3 like I did for MP2, well no they decided against.
Again I bought the chronicles games new because they were so much cheaper than the average new game!
There's like 5 bucks difference between the new DSC and a DS game!
I don't evenn if I paid Picross 3D cheaper than the latest Silent hill anymore! (all for the price of Heavy Rain btw).
If anything there's a point to be made that by making games slightly cheaper they could get so much more sales :-/

 

[The Technomancer]

Regarding the amount of people downloading Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver, would it be technically possible to somehow have made the Pokewalker absolutey mandatory in order for the game to work? For example, "lock" the game somehow until you connect with the Pokewalker from the main menu? And in order to prevent people from just putting up hacked "unlocked" copies, they could make it so you have to connect once every so often.

Nope. It'd delay them, but the hackers would get around it in a few days. Making it so you have to connect every few days doesn't work because a.) its just more code the hackers can change, and b.) what about people who buy used or lose their Pokewalker?

 

[JJConrad]

I'm not so sure if it's outright laziness, or the potential issues that would arise from such a scenario. I could easily see problems with ironing out the specifics of what profit goes where and to whom. For example, Activision and EA - quite rightly - could make the argument that people come to the proposed outlet, more often than not, looking for their products. Thus, any purchase of another 3rd party's title would be as a direct result of Activision and EA's wares luring people into the store and giving that other company's title the chance to be seen and impulsively purchased. At which point, they could argue that they deserve a portion of the profit even though it wasn't their game sold.

And that's when the whole dream sort of breaks down.

There something I'm not sure you understand and I hope I can help:

-Digital piracy isn't theft, its counterfeiting. Thinking of it as regular theft makes the scenario muddy and confusing. It has the exact same effect on the market as the person who prints fake money has on currency. The used-market is in no way comparable to counterfeiting, in either logistical, legal or moral senses.

 

[Vinci]

There something I'm not sure you understand and I hope I can help:

-Digital piracy isn't theft, its counterfeiting. Thinking of it as regular theft makes the scenario muddy and confusing. It has the exact same effect on the market as the person who prints fake money has on currency. The used-market is in no way comparable to counterfeiting, in either logistical, legal or moral senses.

I thought I clarified that a bit in one of my earlier posts - about how a used game sale has, at its core, the same original inclination that buying a new game does: They go into the store to buy a game. Used or new is incidental to this choice.

Whereas piracy isn't based on that idea at all.

So I distinguished between them - just from a psychological standpoint. However, your logistical information is very helpful. Thank you.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Pirate: "There's nothing wrong with piracy! Nintendo should just get with the times and offer their games for free on their website! And if we like it, THEN we'll buy it!"

 

[Cheerilee]

Thats such a stupid fucking statement. Using a complete lack of common god damn sense and going buy that fucked up logic, we cant exactly say that every pirated game ISNT a lost sale at a one to one ratio either can we? The logical thing to say is that its going to fall somewhere in there. Not one to one obviously, we shouldnt even entertain a 1:1 ratio, but at the same time we know its more than fucking zero, and can say it with absolute certainty. Stop mucking up the discussion with your nonsense.

I don't like these posts at all. Honestly, I have friends who pirate ALL of their portable games but they recently purchased the new Pokemon due to the anti-piracy thing in it (which eventually got fixed, obviously). Point is, as long as games are pirateable in any way, shape or form they will be pirated.

People who say "it can't be proven that piracy has a role in game sales" need to use some logic. You don't need some kind of scientific study to realize obvious things.

And yes, there are instances where piracy increases game sales, but ever wonder what the ratio of decrease to increase is? Nevermind, can't be proven that there's any decrease at all right?

I would entertain the idea that lost sales due to downloads are greater than 1:1. What if piracy removes the sense of worth in games and kills someone's enthusiasm as a gamer?

But there are other hypotheticals. Like, what if someone who has absolutely no intention of becoming a gamer buys a DS because of the lure of free games, and then he still buys no games, but he takes his DS with him to his uncle's house once and as a result his uncle (ignorant of his piracy) ends up buying him a game per-year as Christmas presents. That's zero game sales lost due to an irrelevant number of downloads, and five game sales gained.

I personally believe that lost game sales are probably somewhere between 1 and 0 for every download, probably closer to zero but still a loss, but just because we all might agree on what something probably is based on no evidence beyond our gut feelings, it doesn't make it true. (Neither does swearing at people who disagree until they leave, BTW.) It's just a guess. There haven't been any studies into this, and I don't believe it can ever be gauged. You can't say what someone would or wouldn't do if something had or hadn't been unless you have a time machine. Piracy has been fought in America for at least 50 years, and the people doing the fighting have still never been able to prove the simple statement that "piracy is bad". It's like trying to prove that used game sales are bad. All we can say is that both are hated by publishers, and that one of them is illegal (not through any natural logic like theft, but as a right given to artists as a gift from the King of England to guard them against publishers, of all people).

 

[Jokeropia]

In case anyone is curious, Layton 2 was at 2.23 million in the west as of December 31 2009. (Layton 1 has reached 3.04 million, but the sequel is outpacing it.)

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2010/100129e.pdf

 

[charlequin]

I'm sorry that I have to post this, but your definition of piracy is just wrong. And no, I'm not defending piracy, I'm just explaining the basics so you know what you're talking about.

An awesome video that the fine people at questioncopyright produced to express this same idea, by releasing the original vocals-only version under a CC license, then copying back the best remix track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4&feature=player_embedded

It also seems somewhat connected to all the hate being generated these days about used game sales. If the companies were doing everything correctly, I'd imagine used game sales and piracy wouldn't be nearly as big an issue for them.

Right, it's the same problem as over in the music business, where they'd gotten so used to squeezing undeserved cash out of the artists on one side and consumers on the other that they were completely blindsided by their customers giving them the finger and turning to illegally-downloaded music. The order of magnitude of the impact of piracy on the game market is something we can more or less estimate from information we have, and it's far less significant than the actual underlying problems with the industry's customer base or business strategy, but it is a convenient bogeyman for ills it actually has nothing to do with.

I'm actually at least somewhat convinced that pirates do so either by a continual response to earlier pirating (ie. pirating once or twice, for 'trial game' purposes, has conditioned them to use it for titles they do in fact want).

Hardcore dedicated pirates (who jump through ridiculous hoops to "get everything for free") and extremely casual pirates (who never pirate anything if any work or effort is involved in it whatsoever) are both pretty common, but you almost never see much of a middle ground there -- I think very few people actually delineate "oh, I'll pirate this, but I'll buy that" if they're in the habit.