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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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PaintTinJr

Member
No, the lanes from APU to the RAM are shared. This means when you access the RAM you can either access the memory with 320bit (fast ram) or with 192 bit (slow ram). It is only one of both at the same time.
The difference in bits is because some RAM chips are 2GB and some are 1GB, but this are the same RAM chips accessed over the same memory lanes.

On the Playstation you can access all RAM with 256 bit, so it is slower then the 320bit RAM of the XSX and faster then the 192bit, since both consoles have the same clock of the RAM.
But it isn't slower in reality IMO because the bottleneck that is missing in the PS5 situation is that data the CPU modifies can be modified at full bandwidth with interleaved CPU/GPU access to the 16GB, and then used by the GPU at full bandwidth after the update.

On the XsX, depending on which way round the access goes, there will be many times when the CPU has to modify data(prepare data for the GPU), and there is a performance cost there, one way or the other.

If the data is in the 10GB, this reduces the GPU effective memory throughout the interleaved update, which could have a further negative cost to the GPU caching by reducing the aperture feeding or receiving cache data, and the CPU updates would further reduce the GPU bandwidth to a split of 560Gb/s and 320GB/s - with every process cycle used by the CPU costing proportionally more throughput of the GPU. If the data is in the 6GB, then it needs copied after modification, and that interleaved update and data copy then has costs to the overall system bandwidth for the update and copy, and the GPU caches for the copy.

Neither of those XsX scenarios can be optimized to match the Ps5's unified setup, and that still doesn't even account for the scheduling of both console systems using RAM for the OS and CPU workloads that will lower GPU cache opportunities to access RAM. Although in the PS5's case, the cache scrubbers and IO complex will help both sides of that predicament - for the GPU, accessing RAM will be reduce by scrubbers, and for the IO complex it will DMA data in/out of RAM for both CPU/GPU needs with less CPU check-in involvement, lowering times when the CPU ram access will be blocking the GPU access.
 
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What I do not quite understand is because many people reach these conclusions for 4 games where ps5 wins very slightly in some cases and we still have 1 month of generation. Nobody has thought that programmers have something to do with their old generation graphics engines. No, it has to be that the Xbox Series X is poorly designed and the PS5 has magical I / O.

Nobody has thought that perhaps the base platform is the ps5 since it has more users and that it is possible that this helps you have better optimization. It would make lot of sense, mostly with the differences about the memory.

Nobody has thought that with the new engines perhaps they take advantage of the Series X more and can considerably improve its performance.

Nobody has thought that perhaps in Series X they are using a new API shared with the PC and that perhaps this makes it more difficult to optimize the console at the moment.

No, many people have thought that both AMD and Microsoft have made a design mistake with the Xbox as there are bottlenecks. Therefore, if in a forum of amateur people they have discovered the Xbox Series X design error then it is because the engineers of Xbox and AMD are useless.

It takes years to make and design a console with large teams and many engineers working on it. But here in just a few months everyone knows that Xbox performs a little less in those games because it has bottlenecks.
Bullshit.

Many (including me) have speculated about API differences. That xbox loses performance to thicker stack of software between game and hardware, as they have to support slow ass xbone + slow ass PCs(and fast ones too)

If you seriously think that nobody, literally nobody on this site or world have not thought of those things, you must have some weird god complex :messenger_grimmacing_

Conclusion: you are trolling or havent read anything

And in the end The reason(s) dont matter, end results will
 
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huraga

Banned
Bullshit.

Many (including me) have speculated about API differences. That xbox loses performance to thicker stack of software between game and hardware, as they have to support slow ass xbone + slow ass PCs(and fast ones too)

If you seriously think that nobody, literally nobody on this site or world have not thought of those things, you must have some weird god complex :messenger_grimmacing_

Conclusion: you are trolling or havent read anything

And in the end The reason(s) dont matter, end results will

If Xbox begins to outperform ps5 soon, many will feel foolish. Enjoy with your speculations and rest well.

BTW that of "in the end The reason(s) dont matter, end results will" is very american...
 
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Shmunter

Member
Bullshit.

Many (including me) have speculated about API differences. That xbox loses performance to thicker stack of software between game and hardware, as they have to support slow ass xbone + slow ass PCs(and fast ones too)

If you seriously think that nobody, literally nobody on this site or world have not thought of those things, you must have some weird god complex :messenger_grimmacing_

Conclusion: you are trolling or havent read anything

And in the end The reason(s) dont matter, end results will
What’s baffling is the COD Cold War crashes bring down the entire system on XsX vs just crashing to dash on PS5. The high level of abstraction on XsX should result in the opposite scenario. 🤔
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Can we talk about the weird pedophiliac undertones in bug snax?



Once again, I can't make the thread. But this is clearly thread worthy. Unacceptable Sony would commission this


Good lord this game has terrible VA.. can't believe people play shite like this lol

But.. it's a really vague sex joke between 2 characters that appear to be.. adults? Kids can handle it lol
 

Sinthor

Gold Member
Uhh getting a bit over yourself with that one, lol. I'm telling you... MS will still be in this wherever you like it or not.
Well, first....I didn't say I WANT them out, so there's that. Secondly...I think there's a strong argument given how things turned out with the Series X that Microsoft had already decided to exit hardware and then changed strategy back. So we'll see. Bottom line, they have to sell MUCH better than they are so far and than they did with XB1 to validate the many millions they spend on developing such hardware. Do you agree with that, or are you one of those that believes Microsoft can just spend and lose endless millions perpetually just to satisfy a small hard core fan base?

If not, then you have to agree that they have to sell hardware much better than they did this past generation or what it's looking like right now. Right?

So...then you have Game Pass, which is much more profit and much less investment intensive for them. Hmmmm....which should a business answering to shareholders by law pick? Endless losses in hardware, just to satisfy a few fans, or a much wider reaching, much more profit generating subscription business?

Ok? That's my point. If I hurt the feelings of any fanboys, I'm sorry they feel that way. Hopefully that's clearer and easier to understand.
 
Can we talk about the weird pedophiliac undertones in bug snax?



Once again, I can't make the thread. But this is clearly thread worthy. Unacceptable Sony would commission this


I loved it. Enjoyed to catch all 100 bugsnax.

4IB2WFv.jpg
 

huraga

Banned
How long are you prepared to wait before you call it that PS5 is more powerful?
I have years to see that.

I´m very surprised because in this forum there is a powerful Sony fanbase.

In addition, many people forcefully affirm things without leaving room for doubt.
 
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Captain Hero

The Spoiler Soldier
I see no loudspeakers... A surround system, maybe even something like Atmos is nice for gaming. And the TV looks rather small.

Never ask such questions, we will always find something for you to waste thousands of dollars on :messenger_winking:

I respect what you said but things like loudspeakers yeah I’m not a fan of that. I prefer headsets like Razer and Pulse 3D and happy with that. The TV I have now is 5 years old and I’m happy with it tbh it provides 4K up to 60fps, but I have a plan to get a new one soon. With that I’m still making changes to the setup.
 

Mahavastu

Member
I respect what you said but things like loudspeakers yeah I’m not a fan of that. I prefer headsets like Razer and Pulse 3D and happy with that. The TV I have now is 5 years old and I’m happy with it tbh it provides 4K up to 60fps, but I have a plan to get a new one soon. With that I’m still making changes to the setup.
My comment was not really meant seriously :messenger_winking:
I mean, my own main home cinema system is from 2008. I just got a new lamp for the projector to celebrate the arival of my PS5, so no upgrade for the next 3 years at least. And yes, I still have an HD-DVD player :messenger_winking:
 
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Captain Hero

The Spoiler Soldier
My comment was not really meant seriously :messenger_winking:
I mean, my own main home cinema system is from 2008. I just got a new lamp for the projector to celebrate the arival of my PS5, so no upgrade for the next 3 years at least. And yes, I still have an HD-DVD player :messenger_winking:

I know man lol .. never took it on that way that’s why I respect what you said I like it but some I’m not interested in.
 

Godfavor

Member
But it isn't slower in reality IMO because the bottleneck that is missing in the PS5 situation is that data the CPU modifies can be modified at full bandwidth with interleaved CPU/GPU access to the 16GB, and then used by the GPU at full bandwidth after the update.

On the XsX, depending on which way round the access goes, there will be many times when the CPU has to modify data(prepare data for the GPU), and there is a performance cost there, one way or the other.

If the data is in the 10GB, this reduces the GPU effective memory throughout the interleaved update, which could have a further negative cost to the GPU caching by reducing the aperture feeding or receiving cache data, and the CPU updates would further reduce the GPU bandwidth to a split of 560Gb/s and 320GB/s - with every process cycle used by the CPU costing proportionally more throughput of the GPU. If the data is in the 6GB, then it needs copied after modification, and that interleaved update and data copy then has costs to the overall system bandwidth for the update and copy, and the GPU caches for the copy.

Neither of those XsX scenarios can be optimized to match the Ps5's unified setup, and that still doesn't even account for the scheduling of both console systems using RAM for the OS and CPU workloads that will lower GPU cache opportunities to access RAM. Although in the PS5's case, the cache scrubbers and IO complex will help both sides of that predicament - for the GPU, accessing RAM will be reduce by scrubbers, and for the IO complex it will DMA data in/out of RAM for both CPU/GPU needs with less CPU check-in involvement, lowering times when the CPU ram access will be blocking the GPU access.

By your logic, all PC' are also bottlenecked by slow ddr4 ram when it is used with cpu gaming tasks, which is way worse as it is a split pool.
 
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By-mission

Member
I have years to see that.

I´m very surprised because in this forum there is a powerful Sony fanbase.

In addition, many people forcefully affirm things without leaving room for doubt.

Ironically and as if .. well imagine Sony in 2013 doing the marketing of the "MOST POWERFUL" console in the world back in 2013, and imagine for a moment that Xbox One had the best multiplatform versions ......
Can you understand now?

It was a long year of waiting, from Uncle Phill-style marketing "the monster that eats monsters for breakfast" to "look here we have the APU of the most powerful console in the world it says 8k" to the discord group, inventing FUD on PS5, from the heating rumors, to the faux overclock that would end in nothing, 9tflops etc.

We even had a person here saying that the Series S would push the PS5 ...

But look how bad it really was ... If it was a race it would be like a Ford hitting a Ferrari and good if you didn't watch the movie, I more than recommend it!
 
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Folks should keep in mind that XSX's memory setup was a compromise and not an inherent designed in advantage.

MS wanted a bus wider than 256bit, to achieve higher memory bandwidth. Which was likely driven by their desire to push RT and ML performance on the XSX. A more conventional 386bit bus design would have been waaaay too cost prohibitive. And they weren't gonna go HAM with RAM chip clocks, paying top dollar for top of the range 16+Gbit/s GDDR6 chips.

So the mixed density chip design was about the only way they could achieve high enough memory bandwidth to feed a 12TFLOPs GPU while also doubling the XB1's RAM capacity to 16GB. It just just comes with the awkward downside of being more tricky to manage on the developer side of things.
 

geordiemp

Member
Spencer in 2018 on XSX silicon design

The thing that’s interesting for us as we roll forward, is we’re actually designing our next-gen silicon in such a way that it works great for playing games in the cloud, and also works very well for machine learning and other non-entertainment workloads. As a company like Microsoft, we can dual-purpose the silicon that we’re putting in.

We have a consumer use for that silicon, and we have enterprise use for those blades as well. It all in our space around driving down the cost to serve. Your cost to serve is made up by two things, how much was the hardware, and how much time does that hardware monetize.

So if we can monetize that hardware over more cycles in the 24 hours through game streaming and other things that need CPU and GPU in the cloud, we will drive down the cost to serve in our services. So the design as we move forward is done hand-in-hand with the Azure silicon team, and I think that creates a real competitive advantage.”

 
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Hashi

Member
No, the lanes from APU to the RAM are shared. This means when you access the RAM you can either access the memory with 320bit (fast ram) or with 192 bit (slow ram). It is only one of both at the same time.
The difference in bits is because some RAM chips are 2GB and some are 1GB, but this are the same RAM chips accessed over the same memory lanes.

On the Playstation you can access all RAM with 256 bit, so it is slower then the 320bit RAM of the XSX and faster then the 192bit, since both consoles have the same clock of the RAM.
Simple question. Is that red squares have the same speed access to memory than others regions of SoC?
Xbox-So-CRam.png
 
Spencer in 2018 on XSX silicon design




I see. That would explain the imbalance number of CUs relative to SE. MS was gunning for a bang-for-buck cloud computing GPU. Gaming efficiency was secondary or an afterthought.
 
Simple question. Is that red squares have the same speed access to memory than others regions of SoC?
Xbox-So-CRam.png

Yes, this is a complete part of digital process. When running your place/route step, the signals are buffered to be sure that the signal (through signal buses) is sent with the right form, the right speed and sync if needed.
 
How accurate is this chart?
sales.png

Not really, it's a bit of DIY according to few feedbacks from sellers, and various information. In short, not very precise, but it allows to have a general idea i think.
On the other hand, concerning these figures, normal that they are so high for the PS5, as PS5 was released on November 19 in Europe. The X series has been sold out since its release in most European countries since November 10 (for France, I can confirm).
The numbers for the PS5 are really good, but should have been higher if more devices were available ! For the Xbox, it is good also, sold out also, but seems that MS could produce less consoles than Sony.
 
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