Support NeoGAF

[SlimySnake]

The mechanic is possible but it would have to be designed differently, by having both "levels" in the RAM and warp between both levels as it was done in Dishonored and Titanfall.

I havent played Dishonored, but TF2 was pretty much the same exact level with some changes here and there. I would say 90% of the assets were shared between the two timelines in TF2.

What Ratchet is doing is loading entirely different levels in a matter of seconds.

 

[M1chl]

You're right, my bad. I was thinking of RAM.

It's too early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee

No problem my man, that's why it's "discussion thread"...

 

[Imtjnotu]

No problem my man, that's why it's "discussion thread"...

This is a facts thread. Bring facts or leave

 

[Dodkrake]

Nice!

Finally!

Oh wow. They say Enhanced Resolution. I wonder if they are targetting native 4k or 1800p. PS4 Pro was 1400p IIRC because ND games dont play well with checkerboarding. So 1800p would be my guess seeing as how PS5 has 2.5x more tflops, but also needs to render every frame twice to get 60 fps.

This is running in BC mode so they wont get any of the 1.25x RDNA IPC gains so with 8 tflops they should be able to do 1440p 60 fps. 1800p is roughly 1.5x more pixels so if they had headroom on the Pro then its possible to 1800p at 60 fps.

Per digital foundry, there's no improved resolution over the PS4 pro version.

 

[SlimySnake]

Nice!

Finally!

Oh wow. They say Enhanced Resolution. I wonder if they are targetting native 4k or 1800p. PS4 Pro was 1400p IIRC because ND games dont play well with checkerboarding. So 1800p would be my guess seeing as how PS5 has 2.5x more tflops, but also needs to render every frame twice to get 60 fps.

This is running in BC mode so they wont get any of the 1.25x RDNA IPC gains so with 8 tflops they should be able to do 1440p 60 fps. 1800p is roughly 1.5x more pixels so if they had headroom on the Pro then its possible to 1800p at 60 fps.

Weird. DF got an early look at the patch and John says there are no resolution upgrades. Whats the trailer talking about then?

 

[assurdum]

Weird. DF got an early look at the patch and John says there are no resolution upgrades. Whats the trailer talking about then?

Maybe a bug as I don't remind how is named the other game soul like patched some month ago?

 

[Dodkrake]

Weird. DF got an early look at the patch and John says there are no resolution upgrades. Whats the trailer talking about then?

Either DF doesn't know how to pixel count (not unhread of) or they are referring to "resolution upgrades" when comparing to the PS4 version (which would be cheeky and uncalled, but also pretty possible)

 

[SlimySnake]

Either DF doesn't know how to pixel count (not unhread of) or they are referring to "resolution upgrades" when comparing to the PS4 version (which would be cheeky and uncalled, but also pretty possible)

maybe the early look patch they received didnt have the resolution increase?

maybe the blog is wrong.

Once patch 1.08 for The Last of Us Part II is installed on your PS5, you will find a toggle in the Display options that allows you to choose between a Framerate Target of 30 FPS or 60 FPS. This allows you to choose your preferred framerate to complement the rest of the enhancements that are part of the PS5 backward compatibility with PS4 games, such as an enhanced resolution, faster load times, and more.

 

[Dodkrake]

maybe the early look patch they received didnt have the resolution increase?

maybe the blog is wrong.

I don't believe they received a different patch. They even reported the load times are kinda horrible.

My 2 cents? This is just a quick "drop a patch that caps framerate at 60fps and blow it out of proportion" deal.

 

[jroc74]

It's more about the assets the ram can provide to the GPU. Theory that since you need less of them in the ram you can have higher quality assets. It's not going to make it the game go from 30FPS to 60FPS or increase the resolution. But it can increase the quality of things like textures for example. If you have a ton of ram you really don't need a fast SSD but if you have a limited amount it helps a lot.

Basically the gist of what Cerny said in his presentation.

Yeah, denser worlds with higher quality assets. 2 things we see on display with Rift Apart. And I have a feeling Rift Apart will have bigger worlds.

That some ppl still only look at resolution and just dismiss the quality of the asset is wild. Ppl have to look beyond fps and resolution. All of it is good, but shouldnt be the only focus.

 

[PSX]

 

[assurdum]

xbox is better

 

[M1chl]

What the fuck is "targeting 60FPS", I know it's probably going to be solid, but what a terrible thing to put in trailer....

 

[kyliethicc]

Weird. DF got an early look at the patch and John says there are no resolution upgrades. Whats the trailer talking about then?

PS4 is 1080p 30. PS5 is now 1440p 60.

So "technically" the PS5 does play the game at both higher resolution and twice the framerate as a (base) PS4. Of course PS4 Pro is 1440p @30, so not really higher res for some users.

Its just a free 60 Hz patch, same as God of War, Ghost, Days Gone. Still just a PS4 game.

The PS5 version is clearly gonna be paid upgrade and get bundled with the remake of the 1st game, or at least the multiplayer. This free patch pretty much confirms that to me. Give existing owners the main thing they'd want, aka 60 FPS, and then do a full paid remaster like Spider-man.

Edit - Also to add, Sony themselves pretty much confirm via implication that there's a PS5 version coming:

 

[kyliethicc]

What the fuck is "targeting 60FPS", I know it's probably going to be solid, but what a terrible thing to put in trailer....

Sony always do that in every thing, its some legal thing.

They even say "free* patch" and then add " - *requires internet connection."

Clearly written by a lawyer lol.

 

[M1chl]

Sony always do that in every thing, its some legal thing.

They even say "free* patch" and then add " - *requires internet connection."

Clearly written by a lawyer lol.

Didn't know that, I don't think that anyone would hold them accountable for it. Well alright, thank you : )

 

[SlimySnake]

What the fuck is "targeting 60FPS", I know it's probably going to be solid, but what a terrible thing to put in trailer....

Sony has been doing it since last gen. It's because of that silly KZ Shadowfall lawsuit where the guy got upset that the mp wasnt native 1080p.

DF found one drop in 8 hours of play. Its pretty much a locked 60 fps.

 

[M1chl]

Sony has been doing it since last gen. It's because of that silly KZ Shadowfall lawsuit where the guy got upset that the mp wasnt native 1080p.

DF found one drop in 8 hours of play. Its pretty much a locked 60 fps.

Lawsuit? Damn, I don't...well it's not surprise I don't remember it.

 

[SlimySnake]

Lawsuit? Damn, I don't...well it's not surprise I don't remember it.

GG were the first to use a checkerboarding/temporal injection like technique last gen, and some guy got butthurt and filed a lawsuit.

Judge Edward M. Chen of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, with the agreement of both parties, dismissed the lawsuit "with prejudice" — a legal phrase that means the plaintiff cannot file another legal action on this issue in the future. Terms of the dismissal were filed under seal, and both sides will have to pay their own legal costs.

California resident Douglas Ladore filed suit last August, alleging that Sony had lied about the resolution of Killzone: Shadow Fall. According to Ladore's original complaint, Sony had claimed in its marketing for the PlayStation 4 launch title that the game would run at a native resolution of 1080p. But developer Guerilla Games, a subsidiary of Sony Computer Entertainment, built Shadow Fall's multiplayer component with "a technological shortcut that was supposed to provide 'subjectively similar' results" to native 1080p, the complaint charged.

Following a graphical analysis by Eurogamer's Digital Foundry in March 2014, nearly four months after Shadow Fall's release, Guerrilla had clarified in a blog post that it used a technique called "temporal reprojection" for multiplayer. According to Guerrilla, temporal reprojection produces an image that is indistinguishable from a typical 1080p feed "most of the time."

Ladore's complaint charged Sony with claims such as negligent misrepresentation, false advertisement, unfair competition, fraud and inducement, and sought damages of more than $5 million. Sony had previously attempted to have the lawsu

Court dismisses lawsuit surrounding Killzone: Shadow Fall graphics

A U.S. federal court dismissed on May 4 the class-action lawsuit that charged Sony with misrepresenting Killzone: Shadow Fall's visual fidelity, according to a court filing. Judge Edward M. Chen...

www.polygon.com

It was the dumbest thing lmao

 

[kyliethicc]

Didn't know that, I don't think that anyone would hold them accountable for it. Well alright, thank you : )

They said that about God of War (PS4) on PS5 too, I recall. Both seem basically locked 60.

I think it has to do with how years ago Sony got sued over a Killzone game having frame drops, or something.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

GG were the first to use a checkerboarding/temporal injection like technique last gen, and some guy (probably a veteran of the vfx industry) got butthurt and filed a lawsuit.

Court dismisses lawsuit surrounding Killzone: Shadow Fall graphics

A U.S. federal court dismissed on May 4 the class-action lawsuit that charged Sony with misrepresenting Killzone: Shadow Fall's visual fidelity, according to a court filing. Judge Edward M. Chen...

www.polygon.com

It was the dumbest thing lmao

Spoiler

I'm not sure if it really was VFXVeteran , but your wording being so ambiguous is freaking hilarious!

 

[SlimySnake]

Spoiler

I'm not sure if it really was VFXVeteran , but your wording being so ambiguous is freaking hilarious!

lol i edited it out a few minutes before your post. surprised it made it in your post.

didnt want to come across as picking on VFX for no reason. was just having some fun. meant no disrespect.

 

[Great Hair]

Suing Sony for:

-fraud? How did they commit Fraud?
-unfair competition? Because Halo 5 wasn't out yet? What?
-inducement? As in "Sony bribed GG?" or someone else? to lie?
-false advertisement? ok, but really? What a twat.

 

[LiquidRex]

Oodle development history change log, PS5 first appearance 7th July 2020

 

[IllegalLemon]

Latency is measured in nanoseconds not miliseconds.

Nanosecond measurements are for Vram and Dram for the time being. SSD and I/O are in the microseconds range. Slower than vram, but more than a thousand times lower latency than sata hdds.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Oodle development history change log, PS5 first appearance 7th July 2020

Oodle and Kraken paving the way

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Oodle development history change log, PS5 first appearance 7th July 2020

Not sure that is the case reading the log. I think under October 2019 it says:

• new: initial Salsa release version (Salsa = Sony = PS5?)

Then in June 2020 it says:

change : _SALSA_ define no longer needed for PS5 Oodle header. So now they can just list 'PS5' openly on updates? The July update you post here being the first such update.

Further there is the following for the March 2020 update:

• new: initial Mustard release version

Could Mustard = Microsoft = XSX?

 

[LiquidRex]

Oodle Development History

RAD Game Tools' web page. RAD makes Bink Video, the Telemetry Performance Visualization System, and Oodle Data Compression - all popular video game middleware.

www.radgametools.com

Link to Oodle development history change log... Very interesting... Such as Oodle Plugin Unreal Engine available for all Consoles September 2020, Oodle built with xbox November GDK in February 2021...

 

[LiquidRex]

Not sure that is the case reading the log. I think under October 2019 it says:

• new: initial Salsa release version (Salsa = Sony = PS5?)

Then in June 2020 it says:

change : _SALSA_ define no longer needed for PS5 Oodle header. So now they can just list 'PS5' openly on updates? The July update you post here being the first such update.

Further there is the following for the March 2020 update:

• new: initial Mustard release version

Could Mustard = Microsoft = XSX?

Salsa and Mustard... Interesting

 

[LiquidRex]

Not sure that is the case reading the log. I think under October 2019 it says:

• new: initial Salsa release version (Salsa = Sony = PS5?)

Then in June 2020 it says:

change : _SALSA_ define no longer needed for PS5 Oodle header. So now they can just list 'PS5' openly on updates? The July update you post here being the first such update.

Further there is the following for the March 2020 update:

• new: initial Mustard release version

Could Mustard = Microsoft = XSX?

I assume Mustard will include XSS too, if those codenames relate to Gen 9 Consoles.

 

[ZywyPL]

It's more about the assets the ram can provide to the GPU. Theory that since you need less of them in the ram you can have higher quality assets. It's not going to make it the game go from 30FPS to 60FPS or increase the resolution. But it can increase the quality of things like textures for example. If you have a ton of ram you really don't need a fast SSD but if you have a limited amount it helps a lot.

Basically the gist of what Cerny said in his presentation.

The textures are the only visual aspects which I can see benefiting from the SSD (not like 16GB RAM is a small amount to begin with), but the assets geometry will still depend on how many polygons the GPU can draw. And with higher geometry, the lightning will become appropriately more demanding, the shadowing will be as well more demanding, reflections, shaders, everything.

So even if the storage drive will help feed the GPU with higher detailed models, it will be still constrained by all the other computations that make up for the final image, meaning you can't go with god knows how much detailed models in the first place anyway. It's aclosed loop basically.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Not sure that is the case reading the log. I think under October 2019 it says:

• new: initial Salsa release version (Salsa = Sony = PS5?)

Then in June 2020 it says:

change : _SALSA_ define no longer needed for PS5 Oodle header. So now they can just list 'PS5' openly on updates? The July update you post here being the first such update.

Further there is the following for the March 2020 update:

• new: initial Mustard release version

Could Mustard = Microsoft = XSX?

It very well could but the problem is series x doesn't have Kraken decompression

 

[Great Hair]

(not worthy of a own thread) Vizio is sniffing their own buyers ..

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

It very well could but the problem is series x doesn't have Kraken decompression

That isn't an issue for Oodle use though, right?

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Nanosecond measurements are for Vram and Dram for the time being. SSD and I/O are in the microseconds range. Slower than vram, but more than a thousand times lower latency than sata hdds.

Yeah, my brain fart was corrected earlier.

Non-volatile memory like phase-change memory, is in the microseconds and I thought NAND was in the milliseconds.

There was a nice infographic that displayed this, back when "PS5 might have RE-RAM", was a hilariously speculated thing. Anyone know where to find it?

 

[thebigmanjosh]

That isn't an issue for Oodle use though, right?

Right, Oodle Texture works on all platforms regardless of compression methods.

The only caveat is Sony purchased a license for all PS4/PS5 developers. The RAD website also says "note that most publishers already have bulk licenses purchased", so I would imagine most multiplat games should be covered. I would expect 1st party Xbox games to stick with BCPack unless there's a huge QOL or performance advantage to using Oodle.

 

[LiquidRex]

Yeah, my brain fart was corrected earlier.

Non-volatile memory like phase-change memory, is in the microseconds and I thought NAND was in the milliseconds.

There was a nice infographic that displayed this, back when "PS5 might have RE-RAM", was a hilariously speculated thing. Anyone know where to find it?

You referring to this article...

Sony Announces ReRAM SSD Technology, Could Be For Playstation 5

Great news emerged from the Persistent Memory Summit recently, regarding Sony's new Cross Point ReRAM SSD. The new SSD technology will boost speeds to a

segmentnext.com

I wouldn't be surprised if Sony go ReRAM route for PS6...

If there is another generation Xbox console I'm sure Microsoft will push to not be outdone on SSD next time around.

 

[Loope]

Someone was faster than me

You're still at 30 fps uh?

 

[PSX]

 

[SlimySnake]

Yeah, my brain fart was corrected earlier.

Non-volatile memory like phase-change memory, is in the microseconds and I thought NAND was in the milliseconds.

There was a nice infographic that displayed this, back when "PS5 might have RE-RAM", was a hilariously speculated thing. Anyone know where to find it?

HBM and RE-RAM. The one that got away.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Interesting I wonder if they are going with ray tracing for the lighting.

 

[Imtjnotu]

That isn't an issue for Oodle use though, right?

It is

Cerny said it takes up to 9 Zen 2 cores worth of power to decompress as fast as it does.

You can always do it slower for the way games are made last gen of course

 

[Great Hair]

The publisher published Bless Online and the 8studio for this game ported Bless Online to the consoles (Bless Unleashed). They sure copied hard from BB, but completely missed the target imho.

Pinocchio + Souls like gameplay = does not compute. Looks like a PC game, not atmospheric at all, no effects, all so clean, clinical.

 

[existensmaximum]

does alex have any credibility in the game developement scene?

Remember when he explained why the graphics in Halo Infinite doesn't actually look bad? That it was just flat lighting (or something like that..)

Yeah...

 

[M1chl]

The publisher published Bless Online and the 8studio for this game ported Bless Online to the consoles (Bless Unleashed). They sure copied hard from BB, but completely missed the target imho.

Pinocchio + Souls like gameplay = does not compute. Looks like a PC game, not atmospheric at all, no effects, all so clean, clinical.

That makes zero sense...

Remember when he explained why the graphics in Halo Infinite doesn't actually look bad? That it was just flat lighting (or something like that..)

Yeah...

I mean he is fucking retarded, because like DF probably have some word and if they said "well it looks awful" dev would probably do something about it. Fucking white knight poor game design/visuals, etc sucks. Because then the game never improves.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

It is

Cerny said it takes up to 9 Zen 2 cores worth of power to decompress as fast as it does.

You can always do it slower for the way games are made last gen of course

I meant use as in compatible. Xbox series can use the Oodle middleware as well as all other platforms. We already know in pure HW decompression terms the PS5's DC unit is stronger than the Xbox series. IIRC the decompression HW in X series is theoretically capable of 6GB/s and the PS5's 22GB/s. Or another metric would be the equivalent to 5 Zen 2 cores vs 9 Zen 2 cores.

 

[LiquidRex]

US Patent for Reduced bandwidth tessellation factors Patent (Patent # 11,010,862 issued May 18, 2021) - Justia Patents Search

A graphics pipeline reduces the number of tessellation factors written to and read from a graphics memory. A hull shader stage of the graphics pipeline detects whether at least a threshold percentage of the tessellation factors for a thread group of patches are the same and, in some embodiments...

patents.justia.com

AMD patent from 2019 dropped a few days ago... An interesting read

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

You referring to this article...

Sony Announces ReRAM SSD Technology, Could Be For Playstation 5

Great news emerged from the Persistent Memory Summit recently, regarding Sony's new Cross Point ReRAM SSD. The new SSD technology will boost speeds to a

segmentnext.com

I wouldn't be surprised if Sony go ReRAM route for PS6...

If there is another generation Xbox console I'm sure Microsoft will push to not be outdone on SSD next time around.

Nah, it was this I was looking for:

 

[SlimySnake]

I meant use as in compatible. Xbox series can use the Oodle middleware as well as all other platforms. We already know in pure HW decompression terms the PS5's DC unit is stronger than the Xbox series. IIRC the decompression HW in X series is theoretically capable of 6GB/s and the PS5's 22GB/s. Or another metric would be the equivalent to 5 Zen 2 cores vs 9 Zen 2 cores.

MS actually came out and told us exactly what their hardware decompression block is equivalent to. it's 4 zen 2 cores.

• Hardware Accelerated Decompression: Game packages and assets are compressed to minimize download times and the amount of storage required for each individual game. With hardware accelerated support for both the industry standard LZ decompressor as well as a brand new, proprietary algorithm specifically designed for texture data named BCPack, Xbox Series X provides the best of both worlds for developers to achieve massive savings with no loss in quality or performance. As texture data comprises a significant portion of the total overall size of a game, having a purpose built algorithm optimized for texture data in addition to the general purpose LZ decompressor, both can be used in parallel to reduce the overall size of a game package. Assuming a 2:1 compression ratio, Xbox Series X delivers an effective 4.8 GB/s in I/O performance to the title, approximately 100x the I/O performance in current generation consoles. To deliver similar levels of decompression performance in software would require more than 4 Zen 2 CPU cores.

Also, the PS5's DMA controller is equivalent to 2 zen 2 cores so the i/o block is more like 11 zen 2 cores.

The controller supports hardware decompression for the industry-standard ZLIB, but also the new Kraken format from RAD Game Tools, which offers an additional 10 per cent of compression efficiency. The bottom line? 5.5GBs of bandwidth translates into an effective eight or nine gigabytes per second fed into the system. "By the way, in terms of performance, that custom decompressor equates to nine of our Zen 2 cores, that's what it would take to decompress the Kraken stream with a conventional CPU," Cerny reveals.

A dedicated DMA controller (equivalent to one or two Zen 2 cores in performance terms) directs data to where it needs to be, while two dedicated, custom processors handle I/O and memory mapping. On top of that, coherency engines operate as housekeepers of sorts.

 

[Anchovie123]

Interesting hiring application from Sony "We seek an engineer to develop compression and I/O-focused technologies for a wide range of games and internal systems."

https://boards.greenhouse.io/sonyinteractiveentertainmentplaystation/jobs/3153385