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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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onesvenus

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nVidia reason...

“maximizing performance in each and every application”

The boost clocks were created to get more performance from the chip without need to increase unit/core count.
I know you are being obtuse on purpose but it doesn't make sense to have a processor running all the time at the maximum possible frequency, that does not mean that doing it would result in less computing performance as you were saying.
It's really easy, if a chip could keep the boost clocks sustained without taking any other consideration, it would be more performant regarding computing than only using that from time to time. The thing is that they can't do that for different reasons. Being more performant is not one of them though.
 

Setsuna Mudou

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Oh man... the nostalgia...



:messenger_grinning_squinting: :messenger_grinning_squinting: :messenger_grinning_squinting: :messenger_grinning_squinting:
 
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XSX is most 4ThePlayers than PS5.
Only fanboys want exclusive titles. Normal gamers dont care about this. If game comes out on multiple platforms, so much the better for players.

So Xbox is more 4ThePlayers because they bought an entire publisher to make all the games exclusive, yet only fanboys care about exclusives. Well... seems your logic is consistent at least.

Yes, but if you decouple your software and services from proprietary hardware, and expose it to the countless millions of devices already out there, your potential target base and profits explode overnight.

Selling xboxes is really just a primary foothold for them.

Simple business decision for them, whether or not we like the direction gaming is obviously heading in.

This is all well and good in theory. In practice however, MS still generates the prevailing majority of their Xbox revenues from console software, Xbox console store royalties and XLG subs.

The waning popularity of their console could also be an indicator of the accompanying waning popularity of the brand as a whole. So focusing more on mobile and PC isn't going to help them grow on platforms they've been historically non-existent on previously.
 
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But that's not true. I've been involved in designing processors in fact and you compute a maximum frequency by using an expected maximum workload. It's an estimated measure, that's true, and you don't set the frequency to satisfy that power envelop, you always leave room to breath, but you can really be confident on it being a maximum frequency. So, hypothetically speaking, if you could guarantee that frequency could be maintained without problems (heat dissipation degradation for example) having the processor working at that fixed frequency would be more performant (computationally speaking) than having a variable frequency. That's what I was saying, theoretically it's not always true that a variable frequency processor is more performant than a fixed frequency processor.

It's obvious it doesn't require "advanced computer science", you talking about this is a good example of that. Having said that, I'll now stop being an "arrogant twat"
What you said is just patently false; that you could design a processor that is always at some "maximum" fixed rate, and that making it variable would only involve "making it go lower."

There is no such maximum fixed rate, because that fixed rate has to handle all workloads... there are workloads that could be handled at a higher frequency, while being within the power/thermal abilities of the system.

I don't know what else to say to you.. and yeah, you are acting arrogant/condescending as hell.. while being flat out wrong.. not a great look bro, just admit you are wrong and we can move on.

You essentially have it completely backwards... variable frequency systems are generally all about pushing a system HIGHER than it could w/ a fixed rate.. at the expense of being less predictable. Most systems measure power/thermal usage and lower clocks if the workload / ambient temperature / etc. pushes pass the limits. But they'd never lower the frequency lower than the system could with a fully fixed rate.. that's just.. total and utter nonsense, as that fixed rate would cause the same power/thermal issue.. like.. what? PS5 does things differently, measuring the expected power usage of a workload and adjusting clocks to the most efficient settings.
 
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xShaun

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nah, if the sales are great then it will get a sequel no matter what the score.

See GT Sports which got 75 but sold really well.
Ghost is at 83 and guaranteed to get a sequel.

The rest of the sub 84 metacritic games from Sony werent so lucky because they didnt exactly light the charts on fire.
- The Last Guardian - 82 Studio disbanded
- Killzone Shadowfall - 70 - no sequel and GG Cambridge shut down
- DriveClub 70 - Studio shutdown
- Days Gone - 70 - no sequel. Studio still alive
- Death Stranding - 82 - (Rumors only so far) no sequel despite winning way more awards than RE2 let alone Ghost. Studio relationship ended with Sony.
- Detroit - 78 - no sequel or spiritual sequel despite it being their best game. no longer making exclusives for sony.
- Until Dawn - 79 - no sequel. no longer making exclusives for sony.
- The order - 63 - no sequel. no longer making exclusives for sony.

I think Sony is sending Returnal out to die with that $70 price tag, but their internal projections must be looking good because they didnt make it a PS+ game like Destruction All Stars and Oddworld.
Reading your list made me feel pretty sad tbh. I loved Days Gone, Detroit and Killzone to an extent. Some of my favourite games don't touch 85 on MC and it must sucks everything seems to have to stay safe and conform.
 

xShaun

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Played that MLB The Show.

Absolutely hated it. How can Americans enjoy this game and sport in general? It's like Golf. 🤭

Anyway, very glad it was free to try and I'm sure many people will enjoy it a lot so I'm glad there isn't a £500 paywall to play it now for them. 👍
 
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DemonCleaner

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nah, if the sales are great then it will get a sequel no matter what the score.

See GT Sports which got 75 but sold really well.
Ghost is at 83 and guaranteed to get a sequel.

The rest of the sub 84 metacritic games from Sony werent so lucky because they didnt exactly light the charts on fire.
- The Last Guardian - 82 Studio disbanded
- Killzone Shadowfall - 70 - no sequel and GG Cambridge shut down
- DriveClub 70 - Studio shutdown
- Days Gone - 70 - no sequel. Studio still alive
- Death Stranding - 82 - (Rumors only so far) no sequel despite winning way more awards than RE2 let alone Ghost. Studio relationship ended with Sony.
- Detroit - 78 - no sequel or spiritual sequel despite it being their best game. no longer making exclusives for sony.
- Until Dawn - 79 - no sequel. no longer making exclusives for sony.
- The order - 63 - no sequel. no longer making exclusives for sony.

I think Sony is sending Returnal out to die with that $70 price tag, but their internal projections must be looking good because they didnt make it a PS+ game like Destruction All Stars and Oddworld.

sony what are you doing :messenger_face_screaming:
 
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onesvenus

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What you said is just patently false; that you could design a processor that is always at some "maximum" fixed rate, and that making it variable would only involve "making it go lower."

There is no such maximum fixed rate, because that fixed rate has to handle all workloads... there are workloads that could be handled at a higher frequency, while being within the power/thermal abilities of the system.

I don't know what else to say to you.. and yeah, you are acting arrogant/condescending as hell.. while being flat out wrong.. not a great look bro, just admit you are wrong and we can move on.

You essentially have it completely backwards... variable frequency systems are generally all about pushing a system HIGHER than it could w/ a fixed rate.. at the expense of being less predictable. Most systems measure power/thermal usage and lower clocks if the workload / ambient temperature / etc. pushes pass the limits. But they'd never lower the frequency lower than the system could with a fully fixed rate.. that's just.. total and utter nonsense, as that fixed rate would cause the same power/thermal issue.. like.. what? PS5 does things differently, measuring the expected power usage of a workload and adjusting clocks to the most efficient settings.
Let me see if I can explain myself better with an example.
Take a workload A that uses a 10% of the GPU transistors and a workload B that uses 90% of the GPU transistors. As you said, you can run A at much higher frequency than B given the same power/thermal budget.
Does that mean that A is a more computing intensive workload than B? No, it doesn't. Simplifying, being computing intensive has a direct relationship with the number of transistors being used.

Now, regarding your affirmation about not being a maximum fixed rate. When you build a processor you test it with what you expect to be the heaviest workload, basically what Cerny called a power virus in the PS5 presentation, and that gives you a maximum frequency the chip can run at inside the power/thermal budget. That's the maximum computing intensive task the chip can process and what I was refering to. If we don't take anything else into consideration (chip life, thermal dissipation degradation over time, etc.) that's the most intensive computation that processor can run. Now, obviously when setting fixed clocks you are setting them lower than that frequency because you need to take all those other things into considerations. Variable clocks can allow you to go temporarily above that base frequency but not above the maximum one.

Having said that, let's take a look at the initial argument again which was an absolute "variable frequencies are more performant than fixed frequencies". The problem here is twofold: saying that in absolute terms and the definition of performant, which for me it's a measure of being more computing intensive. In that case, even if workload A runs at much higher frequencies than workload B, it's not more performant, making that affirmation false.
 

SlimySnake

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Reading your list made me feel pretty sad tbh. I loved Days Gone, Detroit and Killzone to an extent. Some of my favourite games don't touch 85 on MC and it must sucks everything seems to have to stay safe and conform.
I loved Detroit and Days Gone, but KZSF was a game I really really disliked. The campaign had these bizarre long levels with nothing but walking. I really dont know what they were trying to go for. But never in a million years did I think they would just kill the franchise after just one bomb. GG Cambridge's KZ Mercenary was excellent. One of vita's best game and easily its best looking. I figured they would be given the console KZ while GG works on Horizon and other IPs, but then they shutdown GG Cambridge and I was just left baffled. That studio was clearly very talented. You dont need to look at metacritic or sales to understand the studio's potential.
 
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ethomaz

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I loved Detroit and Days Gone, but KZSF was a game I really really disliked. The campaign had these bizarre long levels with nothing but walking. I really dont know what they were trying to go for. But never in a million years did I think they would just kill the franchise after just one bomb. GG Cambridge's KZ Mercenary was excellent. One of vita's best game and easily its best looking. I figured they would be given the console KZ while GG works on Horizon and other IPs, but then they shutdown GG Cambridge and I was just left baffled. That studio was clearly very talented. You dont need to look at metacritic or sales to understand the studio's potential.
Shadow Fall campaign was good.
MP was really subpar and blurry.

I loved K2 and K3 both campaign and MP.
I really played a lot the MP in these too... hours and hours after get the MP trophies.
 
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Variable clocks can allow you to go temporarily above that base frequency but not above the maximum one.

So you are admitting wrong without just admitting wrong?

This is a direct contradiction to what you said in the post I called you out on.

You are also just flat out wrong in general.. a variable rate system would never go lower than a fixed rate system on the same chip, with the same power, etc., it would always run at equal or higher performance on a given workload, as there is no reason for it to ever go below the frequency that same chip would be set to if it was fixed.. as that fixed rate is designed to handle all workloads within the power envelope. The EXACT opposite of what you claimed in your post, that it would always go lower than the fixed clock.. it's just.. absolute and utter nonsense.

Does that make it better? That's debatable.. the only thing we agree on. We'd have to talk to developers about whether the consistency of the clocks on the XSX are actually an advantage against the unique variable based on workload setup of the PS5.
 
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onesvenus

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So you are admitting wrong without just admitting wrong?

This is a direct contradiction to what you said in the post I called you out on.
No? Notice that I've always talked about the maximum frequency that a chip can run at, not the base frequency a chip is set at. Variable frequencies can't never be above the theoretical maximum, which, again, is the frequency I was talking about.
You are also just flat out wrong in general.. a variable rate system would never go lower than a fixed rate system on the same chip, with the same power, etc., it would always run at equal or higher performance on a given workload, as there is no reason for it to ever go below the frequency that same chip would be set to if it was fixed.. as that fixed rate is designed to handle all workloads within the power envelope. The EXACT opposite of what you claimed in your post, that it would always go lower than the fixed clock.. it's just.. absolute and utter nonsense.
Again, I'm talking about the maximum frequency the processor can go, not the base clock it's set at. It's obvious that variable frequency can never go above the maximum theoretical frequency limit, which, again, is what I was talking about. I was using that theoretical maximum frequency as a counterpoint to the affirmation "variable is most performant than fixed". But seeing you keep talking about going above that maximum theoretical frequency, it seems I'm not making myself clear
 
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No? Notice that I've always talked about the maximum frequency that a chip can run at, not the base frequency a chip is set at. Variable frequencies can't never be above the theoretical maximum, which, again, is the frequency I was talking about.

Again, I'm talking about the maximum frequency the processor can go, not the base clock it's set at. It's obvious that variable frequency can never go above the maximum theoretical frequency limit, which, again, is what I was talking about. I was using that theoretical maximum frequency as a counterpoint to the affirmation "variable is most performant than fixed". But seeing you keep talking about going above that maximum theoretical frequency, it seems I'm not making myself clear
 
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No? Notice that I've always talked about the maximum frequency that a chip can run at, not the base frequency a chip is set at. Variable frequencies can't never be above the theoretical maximum, which, again, is the frequency I was talking about.
You were talking about fixed clocks.. or as you put it "non variable" clocks. There is no max, or base.. there is the frequency chosen for that fixed clock.

You said this:

"If you have a processor with non variable clocks that maximizes it's frequency on a given power envelope, you can't have better performance with variable clocks because frequency cannot go higher, only lower."

It's complete nonsense because a fixed clock system can't be set anywhere near the theoretical maximum frequency.. it's maximum frequency "on a given power envelope" would be lower than the actual maximum frequency the chip can handle for some workloads as it has to be set to handle ALL workloads at the same fixed clock. A variable clock system actually CAN potentially sometimes run at theoretical maximum for some workloads.. and would NEVER need to run at a clock lower than that same chip/cooling/PSU/etc. with a fixed clock setup.

The exact opposite of what you said.. variable clocks would never go lower, only higher.

Maybe you misspoke.. or were talking about some theoretical chip that can't possibly exist (a fixed clock system at total max frequency for a chip).. either way.. you flat out are making no sense.
 
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onesvenus

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or were talking about some theoretical chip that can't possibly exist (a fixed clock system at total max frequency for a chip)
That's exactly what I was talking about to say that saying "variable frequency is more performant than fixed clocks" was not always true.
But yeah, we've gone too long with this.
Thanks for the replies
 
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ethomaz

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for now. Facebook paid $20 billion for whatsapp. If discord gets a billion dollar offer, they are taking it lol.
That is probably because they didn't reached a deal.
Discord is valued today in over $7b.

So for a purchase you need to give way more than that.
 
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SlimySnake

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The rumor was $10B
Damn. They must think they can get that whatsapp money.

I dont blame them. I think Discord has far more social potential than Whatsapp which is mostly used internationally. I wonder if Tencent will give them that money. I dont see Apple, Google or Facebook spending that kind of money.
 

bitbydeath

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nah, if the sales are great then it will get a sequel no matter what the score.

See GT Sports which got 75 but sold really well.
Ghost is at 83 and guaranteed to get a sequel.

The rest of the sub 84 metacritic games from Sony werent so lucky because they didnt exactly light the charts on fire.
- The Last Guardian - 82 Studio disbanded
- Killzone Shadowfall - 70 - no sequel and GG Cambridge shut down
- DriveClub 70 - Studio shutdown
- Days Gone - 70 - no sequel. Studio still alive
- Death Stranding - 82 - (Rumors only so far) no sequel despite winning way more awards than RE2 let alone Ghost. Studio relationship ended with Sony.
- Detroit - 78 - no sequel or spiritual sequel despite it being their best game. no longer making exclusives for sony.
- Until Dawn - 79 - no sequel. no longer making exclusives for sony.
- The order - 63 - no sequel. no longer making exclusives for sony.

I think Sony is sending Returnal out to die with that $70 price tag, but their internal projections must be looking good because they didnt make it a PS+ game like Destruction All Stars and Oddworld.
There’s a lot of errors here:

Last Guardian - Ueda left on his own accord to form his own company.
Gg Cambridge - Didn’t make Killzone SF.
Days Gone - There may still be a sequel, Jason was proven wrong.
Death Stranding - Relationship ending is a rumour and not a fact.
Detroit - Going multiplatform because of netEase buy-in
Until Dawn - Was confirmed to be working on multiple PlayStation exclusives
 

SlimySnake

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There’s a lot of errors here:

Last Guardian - Ueda left on his own accord to form his own company.
Gg Cambridge - Didn’t make Killzone SF.
Days Gone - There may still be a sequel, Jason was proven wrong.
Death Stranding - Relationship ending is a rumour and not a fact.
Detroit - Going multiplatform because of netEase buy-in
Until Dawn - Was confirmed to be working on multiple PlayStation exclusives
I didnt know about Until Dawn devs making PS exclusives but i dont see how the others are errors.

I went out of my way to mention that the Death Stranding info is Rumors only.
I never said GG Cambridge made KZSF, but they were the KZ studio and were shutdown after shipping KZ Mercenary instead.
Team Ico made The Last Guardian, they were part of Japan Studios which was restructured under Team Asobi. Team Ico is gone.
QD went multiplatform, not sure how thats an error. Sony invested in them for well over a decade that resulted in 3 big AAA games. They went out to get third party money because Sony didnt.
Days Gone. We will see. I have no idea how you can be so certain of it either way. The director of Days Gone wouldnt be retweeting the Petition to make DG2 if DG2 was in development. But lets tag that under rumors like Death Stranding. Jason wouldnt be proven wrong until Sony shows up at E3 with Days Gone 2.

The bottomline is that we didnt get sequels to those games that scored below a certain threshold and didnt exactly light the charts on fire. Not sure whats so controversial about that.
 
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ethomaz

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There’s a lot of errors here:

Last Guardian - Ueda left on his own accord to form his own company.
Gg Cambridge - Didn’t make Killzone SF.
Days Gone - There may still be a sequel, Jason was proven wrong.
Death Stranding - Relationship ending is a rumour and not a fact.
Detroit - Going multiplatform because of netEase buy-in
Until Dawn - Was confirmed to be working on multiple PlayStation exclusives
Ueda already left way before The Last Guardian... he made a 3rd-party contract to work with The Last Guardian... think like how Cerny worked with PS4 and PS5.

To be more accurate he left Sony in December 2011 with a contract to help finish The Last Guardian when Sony needed.
The GenDesign created in 2014 helped to finish the game as a 3rd-party.
 
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bitbydeath

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I didnt know about Until Dawn devs making PS exclusives but i dont see how the others are errors.

I went out of my way to mention that the Death Stranding info is Rumors only.
I never said GG Cambridge made KZSF, but they were the KZ studio and were shutdown after shipping KZ Mercenary instead.
Team Ico made The Last Guardian, they were part of Japan Studios which was restructured under Team Asobi. Team Ico is gone.
QD went multiplatform, not sure how thats an error. Sony invested in them for well over a decade that resulted in 3 big AAA games. They went out to get third party money because Sony didnt.
Days Gone. We will see. I have no idea how you can be so certain of it either way. The director of Days Gone wouldnt be retweeting the Petition to make DG2 if DG2 was in development. But lets tag that under rumors like Death Stranding. Jason wouldnt be proven wrong until Sony shows up at E3 with Days Gone 2.

The bottomline is that we didnt get sequels to those games that scored below a certain threshold and didnt exactly light the charts on fire. Not sure whats so controversial about that.
But it shows it wasn’t due to score in a lot of circumstances but rather because they got more money from elsewhere.

-GG Cambridge having nothing to do with Killzone SF means that score had nothing to do with their closure.
-Ueda left to form genDesign, again nothing to do with score as was pointed out this occurred even before the game released. Ueda was Team Ico.
-QD offered more money still doesn’t relate to scores.
-Days Gone - Team has been knowingly working on a game since 2019, it may or may not be Days Gone 2. We’ll likely hear about it either this year or next.
RIP Evolution, that was a huge loss. :messenger_sad_relieved:
 

ethomaz

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But it shows it wasn’t due to score in a lot of circumstances but rather because they got more money from elsewhere.

-GG Cambridge having nothing to do with Killzone SF means that score had nothing to do with their closure.
-Ueda left to form genDesign, again nothing to do with score as was pointed out this occurred even before the game released. Ueda was Team Ico.
-QD offered more money still doesn’t relate to scores.
-Days Gone - Team has been knowingly working on a game since 2019, it may or may not be Days Gone 2. We’ll likely hear about it either this year or next.
RIP Evolution, that was a huge loss. :messenger_sad_relieved:
I believe Evolution was more like how they handled the launch of the game that indeed harmed and made Sony lose a lot of money.
Sony probably had to cut heads responsible for that and after that they show it was better to dissolve the whole studio.

I know it is not fair.

But I remember I have to fix a issue in a big loyalty company in Brazil where the 3rd-party company responsible made suck a mess that they have to contact IBM that send me to solve the issue without limit of time... I have to work all the midnight with the sales manager of the IBM and one of the biggest director of the company seat on my side talking about how they were losing R$30k per minute (because the issue give free loyalty points to consumers)... I ended fixing their issue near 5am when I finally gone eat some breakfast before go home sleep :D
The 3rd-party company responsible for the issue lose the contract with the company and the IBM took place after I fixed it.

So I can understand heads or studios being cut when there are big mess up.
 
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SlimySnake

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-Days Gone - Team has been knowingly working on a game since 2019, it may or may not be Days Gone 2. We’ll likely hear about it either this year or next.
:messenger_sad_relieved:
Regarding this, their pitches for Days Gone 2 and Uncharted 2 never materialized and the Hollywood writing talent they hired both left in 2020 along with Jeff Ross the main director over there. So the game they started working on in 2019 might not exist. Jason said they only recently started working on their new IP.

So if he's wrong, and that game from 2019 has been in development for 2 years, we should see it at E3 in just a little over a month.
 
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That's exactly what I was talking about to say that saying "variable frequency is more performant than fixed clocks" was not always true.
But yeah, we've gone too long with this.
Thanks for the replies

So it's not always true, in some theoretical chip/configuration that couldn't possible exist?

OK lol
 
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ethomaz

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That's exactly what I was talking about to say that saying "variable frequency is more performant than fixed clocks" was not always true.
But yeah, we've gone too long with this.
Thanks for the replies
Variable Clock won't be more performante only if the chip was bad designed and it stutter to reach higher clocks.
I can only think only of some RX 480 that have some issues to increase clock and throttled even below the base clock (that should be the fixed one).

But that is exception... variable clock will always give more performance because the lowest close is the base that is equal in performance to the fixed one. Imagine PS5 can run fixed at 2000Mhz... with variable clock it will range between 2000-2230Mhz that give you better performance than 2000Mhz fixed.

Series X could run between 1850Mhz and 2xxxMhz with variable clock that is better than 1850Mhz fixed.
There is actually no harm in variable clock... the worst case scenario is performance equal to fixed clocks but that rarely happens because most of time it will be higher than what you have in fixed.
 
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bitbydeath

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Regarding this, their pitches for Days Gone 2 and Uncharted 2 never materialized and the Hollywood writing talent they hired both left in 2020 along with Jeff Ross the main director over there. So the game they started working on in 2019 might not exist. Jason said they only recently started working on their new IP.

So if he's wrong, and that game from 2019 has been in development for 2 years, we should see it at E3 in just a little over a month.
They’ve been working on an open world game since 2019.

2019

2020

2021

Jason claimed they were working on a non-open world game (TLOU) which the above proves was false.
 

SlimySnake

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They’ve been working on an open world game since 2019.

2019

2020

2021

Jason claimed they were working on a non-open world game (TLOU) which the above proves was false.
Nah, according to Jason, in 2019 they were working on DG2 pitch. That would qualify as open world. During this time the studio was helping do support for TLOU2 which is something Jeff Ross confirmed. The only difference is that there was no resentment in doing so since they would rather work on a project then get laid off.

In 2020, they started working on an Uncharted reboot/spinoff. This could also have been open world. We dont know because it never really started development. The hollywood writers left after ND got involved with the Uncharted reboot, and thats when Sony Bend was like nah, we would rather do our own IP than make a game under ND's supervision.

Sony to its credit, did not shutdown the studio and let them make their own IP. But that only started development recently in the last few weeks. Jason said that his original article had a lot more of a focus on Sony Bend but after the latest development in which Bend did get to leave ND's supervision/influence/whatever you wanna call it, he decided not to make the article about Sony Bend and focused on VSG's struggles with ND oversight instead.
 
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bitbydeath

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Nah, according to Jason, in 2019 they were working on DG2 pitch. That would qualify as open world. During this time the studio was helping do support for TLOU2 which is something Jeff Ross confirmed. The only difference is that there was no resentment in doing so since they would rather work on a project then get laid off.

In 2020, they started working on an Uncharted reboot/spinoff. This could also have been open world. We dont know because it never really started development. The hollywood writers left after ND got involved with the Uncharted reboot, and thats when Sony Bend was like nah, we would rather do our own IP than make a game under ND's supervision.

Sony to its credit, did not shutdown the studio and let them make their own IP. But that only started development recently in the last few weeks. Jason said that his original article had a lot more of a focus on Sony Bend but after the latest development in which Bend did get to leave ND's supervision/influence/whatever you wanna call it, he decided not to make the article about Sony Bend and focused on VSG's struggles with ND oversight instead.
Uncharted wouldn’t have been open world and if you open the 2020 link you’ll see it states the work started in 2019.
 
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