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[travisktl]

Well zoom in that other case can be used with bad intentions as well. Neither one is realistic to be honest.

Yep. They’re pointing out and focusing on things that probably 95% of people wouldn’t even notice. People only start to freak out over those things when it’s brought to their attention. When I’m playing games, I’m usually focusing on my character and the immediate surroundings. If you’re actually playing the game and not over analyzing everything, you probably won’t even notice lower LOD way off in the distance.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yep. They’re pointing out and focusing on things that probably 95% of people wouldn’t even notice. People only start to freak out over those things when it’s brought to their attention. When I’m playing games, I’m usually focusing on my character and the immediate surroundings. If you’re actually playing the game and not over analyzing everything, you probably won’t even notice lower LOD way off in the distance.

I usually look at comparisons on the screen that im going to play my games on. It's more realistic to do that than look at a 800X zoom for example.

 

[Imtjnotu]

I thought Far Cry 5 on PS 4 pro was impressive. Am I in the minority?

Most likely. I haven't seen an ubi game in the last 5 years that made me say WOW

 

[reksveks]

Nah Demon Souls running at 60 looks like miles better.

Ubisoft quality is pretty low these days, Series X future games at 60FPS will look miles better.

Not as big a world as AC:Valhalla, which means that dev's/artists can't curate the world as much and also think Dark Souls definitely probably will be more dynamic in terms of resolution scaling.

 

[Doncabesa]

I usually look at comparisons on the screen that im going to play my games on. It's more realistic to do that than look at a 800X zoom for example.

Places like DF say they use the zoom ins because the majority of their views come on mobile devices.

 

[Metroiddarks]

For 4K60, it kinda will be and has to be. I think until the consoles have good upscalers, anything targeting 4k60 will have to make sacrifices elsewhere also remember that Assassin Creed typically has a smaller turnaround than other similar sized Open Word RPG's.

You are in part wrong, these consoles can do more than just use reconstruccion techniques (upscale is other thing) when you start to see your
games dev in base a SSD and Mesh shader/Primitive Shader, REYES, VRS, improved techniques of culling more objects in scene as you can make
more draw calls then you will what this gen is capable.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

this is great an all, but it would be still better if it just supports VRS. Because now does a dev have to do?
With VRS just optimize it once and use it for both PC and XBOX. Since PS5 doesn’t support it, they would have to develop a customer feature and this will take more time and resource, which will make developing games more expensive. Not sure if devs will even do this or just don’t use that feature at all.

Wut?

Unless you're advocating for the use of DirectX12 on PS5 this post makes little to no sense at all. Everything a developer implements on an Xbox/PC build will have to be implemented separately and independently on PS5 because PS5 uses a completely different graphics API that exposes a different set of hardware features. This is no different to this current gen or any previous generation of consoles.

Functionally, the Geometry Engine seems to be more flexible and feature rich than the hardware implementation of tier 1 & 2 VRS on XSX and DirectX12U. It seems able to do a lot more around manipulating primitives through culling and even "on the fly" geometry generation, rather than being purely focused on pixel shading rate like VRS on XSX is.

It sounds more like PS5's Geometry Engine is kinda == XSX's VRS + Mesh Shaders but with even more programmability and flexibility in terms of when it can be done in the rendering pipeline (which is game-changer level stuff).

(Caveat: All if RGT is to be believed of course)

 

[Andodalf]

Wut?

Unless you're advocating for the use of DirectX12 on PS5 this post makes little to no sense at all. Everything a developer implements on an Xbox/PC build will have to be implemented separately and independently on PS5 because PS5 uses a completely different graphics API that exposes a different set of hardware features. This is no different to this current gen or any previous generation of consoles.

Functionally, the Geometry Engine seems to be more flexible and feature rich than the hardware implementation of tier 1 & 2 VRS on XSX and DirectX12U. It seems able to do a lot more around manipulating primitives through culling and even "on the fly" geometry generation, rather than being purely focused on pixel shading rate like VRS on XSX is.

It sounds more like PS5's Geometry Engine is kinda == XSX's VRS + Mesh Shaders but with even more programmability and flexibility in terms of when it can be done in the rendering pipeline (which is game-changer level stuff).

(Caveat: All if RGT is to be believed of course)

This all coming from one source makes it very suspect. It has strong shades of 13TF

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

This all coming from one source makes it very suspect. It has strong shades of 13TF

Possibly... but Cerny's comments about the GE in the road to PS5 talk strongly suggest RGT may very well prove correct on this point.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

This all coming from one source makes it very suspect. It has strong shades of 13TF

A few others like MooresLawisDead reported it too although I am skeptical of his sources and information.

That being said RGT does have very reliable sources when it comes to AMD/Nvidia stuff, he accurately leaked all of the 6000 series AMD GPU's including the term "Infinity Cache" months ago + lots of other AMD stuff.

According to LeviathanGamer on Twitter, RGT also told him the exact PS5 GPU clock speeds before the PS5 event, so I would guess his Sony sources are reliable as well. I'll always take it with a grain of salt though, because this is all in the realm of speculation/leaks/rumours, hopefully we find out over the course of the next few months or maybe even over the next year, depending on how open developers want to be as well as Mark Cerny.

 

[reksveks]

It sounds more like PS5's Geometry Engine is kinda == XSX's VRS + Mesh Shaders but with even more programmability and flexibility in terms of when it can be done in the rendering pipeline (which is game-changer level stuff).
(Caveat: All if RGT is to be believed of course)

Afaik i am not sure most devs are actually in a good enough place to compare the two yet because the first DX12U compliant drivers for PC came out about 3 months ago so i think it's sadly going to be a while. I also don't know if his sources are comparing them as well or comparing it to the old rendering pipeline.

You are in part wrong, these consoles can do more than just use reconstruccion techniques (upscale is other thing) when you start to see your
games dev in base a SSD and Mesh shader/Primitive Shader, REYES, VRS, improved techniques of culling more objects in scene as you can make
more draw calls then you will what this gen is capable.

Maybe but I probably put more hope in great AI upscaling than the other new efficiency that we will start to see especially since think AI upscaling might get turned around sooner. I think Mesh Shaders is also going to be a game changer. I also think that open world games need to figure out how to produce high fidelity and realistic worlds, it seems to be the big area that those games seem lack when you compare it to a more enclosed single player game.

Edit I am think RGT has got accurate Sony sources but think he might not have sources that are starting to implement DX12U features and therefore he isn't making any comparisons yet.

 

[Kerlurk]

What’s the weird coile whine with the PS5?

Bitter much?

Time to break out the glue gun and put hot glue all over those mosfets.

Now, now, no sniffing.

For legal reasons I must state: this post is sarcasm.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Places like DF say they use the zoom ins because the majority of their views come on mobile devices.

I'm making more of a reference to those that go to an extreme extent to show flaws. Like if they zoom in 1000% to show something that nobody will notice for example.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Afaik i am not sure most devs are actually in a good enough place to compare the two yet because the first DX12U compliant drivers for PC came out about 3 months ago so i think it's sadly going to be a while. I also don't know if his sources are comparing them as well or comparing it to the old rendering pipeline.

My comment was comparing the functionality (not performance) of the two.

We know very clearly what VRS Tier 1 & 2 do functionally and their limitations. Equally for Mesh Shaders (MS's patent on their implementation mirrors more or less what NVidia do). And any developer with a PS5 devkit will have technical documentation describing in great detail what the GE is and can do.

RGT's source's comments on the GE aren't comparing anything. They're speaking specifically to the functionality of the GE in pretty clear terms.

 

[MasterCornholio]

This all coming from one source makes it very suspect. It has strong shades of 13TF

Cerny did talk about the geometry engine and he wasn't the one to spread the 13TF rumor. I guess most of this is due to the way people are interpreting what he said.

Btw I saw 10TF rumors as well.

 

[M1chl]

Possibly... but Cerny's comments about the GE in the road to PS5 talk strongly suggest RGT may very well prove correct on this point.

Just the situation where AMD has "Geometry Engine" since RDNA makes it suspect, that it's going to be fart in the wind, because why else would it have been named the same. XSX from hotships has it's own geometry engine.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Just the situation where AMD has "Geometry Engine" since RDNA makes it suspect, that it's going to be fart in the wind, because why else would it have been named the same. XSX from hotships has it's own geometry engine.

It's just general terminology. The geometry engine also existed in GCN.

 

[Kerlurk]

I usually look at comparisons on the screen that im going to play my games on. It's more realistic to do that than look at a 800X zoom for example.

Not disagreeing, but no different than Digital Foundry's zoom.

I think the actual screenshot before the crop/zoom looks really good, and is a multi-generation title.

 

[geordiemp]

They are getting the RT working, just about

 

[M1chl]

It's just general terminology. The geometry engine also existed in GCN.

Oh so it was back in GCN days then, I was maybe confused that their both have capital letter at the start of the word.

 

[reksveks]

My comment was comparing the functionality (not performance) of the two.

We know very clearly what VRS Tier 1 & 2 do functionally and their limitations. Equally for Mesh Shaders (MS's patent on their implementation mirrors more or less what NVidia do). And any developer with a PS5 devkit will have technical documentation describing in great detail what the GE is and can do.

RGT's source's comments on the GE aren't comparing anything. They're speaking specifically to the functionality of the GE in pretty clear terms.

RGT says that the Geometry Engine is very flexible but then the follow up question I would have, is in comparison to what if I was looking to see if there was going to be any differences between XSX and PS5. Maybe that's an unneeded question. Doesn't the new mesh shaders pipeline introduce improved flexibility as well?

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Just the situation where AMD has "Geometry Engine" since RDNA makes it suspect, that it's going to be fart in the wind, because why else would it have been named the same. XSX from hotships has it's own geometry engine.

"geometry engine" is a technical term and you'll find it's usage going back to even the 1980's, it's featured on many GPU's but the functionality varies drastically.

Sony's Geometry Engine (with uppercase G and E) is very different and it's been heavily customised so support a range of functionality as highlighted by Mark Cerny in the Road to PS5 talk.

 

[M1chl]

"geometry engine" is a technical term and you'll find it's usage going back to even the 1980's, it's featured on many GPU's but the functionality varies drastically.

Sony's Geometry Engine (with uppercase G and E) is very different and it's been heavily customised so support a rand of functionality as highlighted by Mark Cerny in the Road to PS5 talk.

You see here is also with two capital letters so it's strange to me. I think AMD have something like that even before that name Terascale, I might be wrong but it should have some better name.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Just the situation where AMD has "Geometry Engine" since RDNA makes it suspect, that it's going to be fart in the wind, because why else would it have been named the same. XSX from hotships has it's own geometry engine.

You're getting too hung up on labels.

Every AMD GPU has a geometry engine(s). The discussion (deriving from RGT's comments) about the PS5 GE is that it is unique and entirely custom, hence why Cerny clearly highlighted it as an innovation in his talk.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Oh so it was back in GCN days then, I was maybe confused that their both have capital letter at the start of the word.

It's kind of like using the term CU. Both GCN and RDNA use CUs but they are not the same. Same thing with the geometry engine. So while both the PS5 and the XSX have geometry engines they might not be the same.

 

[Kerlurk]

You see here is also with two capital letters so it's strange to me. I think AMD have something like that even before that name Terascale, I might be wrong but it should have some better name.

Fixed functions vs programmable. World of a difference.

 

[FunkMiller]

He posted this just like that:

Thats about Joe Biden becoming the 46th President of the United States

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

RGT says that the Geometry Engine is very flexible but then the follow up question I would have, is in comparison to what if I was looking to see if there was going to be any differences between XSX and PS5. Maybe that's an unneeded question. Doesn't the new mesh shaders pipeline introduce improved flexibility as well?

It would ostensibly be in comparison to GPUs with more conventional rendering pipelines. So everything prior to the introduction of VRS and Mesh Shaders on Desktop GPU products.

Whether the GE offers even more flexibility and programmability and/or functionality that VRS and Mesh Shaders on the XSX is an open question. But again since this is all assuming RGT's sources are correct, pretty much everything is an open question at this point.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Guys calm down with the crossgen titles.... each gen since xbox 360 is the same thing with "this gen looks as the last one only with better resolution".

First AC crossgen of the current gen:

First AC dev for current gen (even the bugs are hard to believe are real)

 

[reksveks]

It would ostensibly be in comparison to GPUs with more conventional rendering pipelines. So everything prior to the introduction of VRS and Mesh Shaders on Desktop GPU products.

Whether the GE offers even more flexibility and programmability and/or functionality that VRS and Mesh Shaders on the XSX is an open question. But again since this is all assuming RGT's sources are correct, pretty much everything is an open question at this point.

Yeah. thats basically where i also stand. We sadly might need a couple of years for engines to be updated, but graphical fidelity in terms of geometric detail is definitely getting a massive update soon.

 

[MasterCornholio]

As a refresher for the geometry engine here's the transcription for the Road to PS5.

Transcribe - The Road to PS5 - Mark Cerny's a deep dive into the PlayStation 5 - - The Road to Next Gen Ludens

Thank you Jim. There will be lots of chances later on this year to look at the PlayStation 5 games.Today I want to talk a bit about our goals for the PlayStation 5 hardware and how they influenced the development of the console.

playstationvr.hateblo.jp

PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control.

As a game developer you're free to ignore its existence and use the PlayStation 5 GPU as if it were no more capable than the PS4 GPU or you can use this new intelligence in various ways.

Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.

More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.

It's a brand new capability.

 

[JonkyDonk]

I really doubt that Cerny would have made a point to mention the Geometry Engine on PS5 if it was just a generic and basic old feature that has been around for years. There must be something unique and custom about it for him to feel like it merited a place in his presentation. Don't forget Sony refers to the DualSense vibrations as 'haptic feedback' which is a very generic term that we've been hearing since rumble came into existence, but in practice the DualSense is far more special and advanced.

 

[renx]

I mean, if Sony had something special hardware wise, why wouldn't they talk about it?
Wouldn't they promote it somehow?

I have no doubts that there is a Geometry Engine. But why wouldn't Sony tell people about how good it is?

 

[Chris_Rivera]

Pretty disappointed Sony SM won’t unlock the framerate on the favor resolution mode in GoW4. Bend studios knocked it out of the park with Days Gone, and I’m assuming Naughty Dog will add a 60fps mode once the mp update drops.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Bloodborne on PS5 is Locked at 30 FPS

As new PlayStation 5 information floods the internet, fans might be upset about news regarding backwards compatibility and Bloodborne.

gamerant.com

Well, fuck.

 

[Metroiddarks]

I mean, if Sony had something special hardware wise, why wouldn't they talk about it?
Wouldn't they promote it somehow?

I have no doubts that there is a Geometry Engine. But why wouldn't Sony tell people about how good it is?

Because first is Sony ... they are weird for the good things are for the bad things, second if you have something which is
ahead in the roadmap of AMD you cannot talk about it, the NDAs also apply to Sony.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I mean, if Sony had something special hardware wise, why wouldn't they talk about it?
Wouldn't they promote it somehow?

I have no doubts that there is a Geometry Engine. But why wouldn't Sony tell people about how good it is?

Cerny already talked about it.

 

[SlimySnake]

Pretty disappointed Sony SM won’t unlock the framerate on the favor resolution mode in GoW4. Bend studios knocked it out of the park with Days Gone, and I’m assuming Naughty Dog will add a 60fps mode once the mp update drops.

Notting for horizon either. Shit like this is maybe 5 days of engineering work max. Maybe less than a day tbh. Most of the work should be qa work which is testing the game but that comes very cheap.

I don't see how 60 fps modes will cost them anything over a few thousand. This is extremely frustrating.

 

[jonnyp]

Bloodborne on PS5 is Locked at 30 FPS

As new PlayStation 5 information floods the internet, fans might be upset about news regarding backwards compatibility and Bloodborne.

gamerant.com

Well, fuck.

This is to be expected. It needs a patch by From to unlock the framerate.

 

[TintoConCasera]

This is to be expected. It needs a patch by From to unlock the framerate.

Yeah, I guess while having animations, IA and such locked at 30fps they´ll need some work to run it at 60.

Let´s hope the do it. Since a random dude was able to it shouldn't be too hard for FromSoft or de Japan Studio to do it.

 

[TwistedSyn]

Got a good laugh out of this one.

 

[Great Hair]

Is it next gen?!

VRS as done by MS is not great at all. It makes everything blurry for small perf gains.

Ubisoft games are trash

Spoiler: more dirt here

 

[JonkyDonk]

Spoiler: more dirt here

4K60 is clearly very taxing even on 'The World's Most Powerful Console' and sacrifices have to be made in some places. This is why nobody should turn their noses up at checkerboarding or DRS.

 

[vpance]

Cerny already talked about it.

They'll likely talk more about it at GDC, if it happens next year.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

Spoiler: more dirt here

It seems like, it would be better to cut resolution and reconstruct with CB or TAA than using VRS. At least you end up with good image quality and detailed environment.

 

[Krisprolls]

Wow looks ugly on Series X. So many months boasting about VRS and the final result looks like that ? What's the point ?

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

It seems like, it would be better to cut resolution and reconstruct with CB or TAA than using VRS. At least you end up with good image quality and detailed environment.

Unless devs are only using VRS Tier 1 because early XSX SDKs haven't fully exposed VRS Tier 2, I'm pretty flabbergasted by the VRS implementation in XSX games thus far.

VRS Tier 2 is supposed to be smart enough that, when used carefully, it shouldn't perceptibly degrade IQ at all. The fact that both the above example and the Halo Infinite footage showed clear signs of degraded IQ in isolated regions of the frame, either VRS Tier 2 is available and not being implemented with enough care, it's bugged in the SDK, or something clearly isn't working as intended or missing (like a whole Tier 2 option).

It's super weird.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Unless devs are only using VRS Tier 1 because early XSX SDKs haven't fully exposed VRS Tier 2, I'm pretty flabbergasted by the VRS implementation in XSX games thus far.

VRS Tier 2 is supposed to be smart enough that, when used carefully, it shouldn't perceptibly degrade IQ at all. The fact that both the above example and the Halo Infinite footage showed clear signs of degraded IQ in isolated regions of the frame, either VRS Tier 2 is available and not being implemented with enough care, it's bugged in the SDK, or something clearly isn't working as intended or missing (like a whole Tier 2 option).

It's super weird.

It can also be that VRS isn't as good as they say it is. Things like that happen with marketing all the time.

 

[Insane Metal]

They are getting the RT working, just about

Poor Series X... when it finally gets a game with Ray Tracing, it crashes after 30 seconds.

 

[geordiemp]

Unless devs are only using VRS Tier 1 because early XSX SDKs haven't fully exposed VRS Tier 2, I'm pretty flabbergasted by the VRS implementation in XSX games thus far.

VRS Tier 2 is supposed to be smart enough that, when used carefully, it shouldn't perceptibly degrade IQ at all. The fact that both the above example and the Halo Infinite footage showed clear signs of degraded IQ in isolated regions of the frame, either VRS Tier 2 is available and not being implemented with enough care, it's bugged in the SDK, or something clearly isn't working as intended or missing (like a whole Tier 2 option).

It's super weird.

Its Tier 2 in the AMD video on Dirt that says uses DX12U on 6800. So I doubt XSX is any different.

VRS is a good idea, but the question is 10 % really worth the texture down grade over upscaling, especaily when used so liberally. Jury is out.