Support NeoGAF

[Null_Key]

Even that cooling fan is obviously unable to sustain those clocks so they had to use SmartShift to maintain thermal balance.

You obviously know this because you must be a Playstation Engineer working for Mark Cerny, got it.

 

[HawarMiran]

so why you are crying over some tweets

So why are you sucking off some twitter dudes? I have a new site for you. It is called NeoFag.com

 

[Reindeer]

At the end of the day, 99% of games won't touch the max capability of boosting both CPU and GPU to their max clocks for long sustained amounts of time and performance will need to be monitored to bring it back down to maybe 95%.

XSX has fixed clocks but also no dev will want pin both GPU and CPU at its max clocks for sustained periods of time as a sudden spike in activity in a game will stall the system, so there will always be some performance headroom left over.

In both cases, consideration on the part of the developers will come into the play.

Cerny said PS5 will throttle down in the "worst case" scenario where both CPU and GPU are maxed, but I'm really not sure this has anything to do with thermals like you are suggesting and more to do with the fundamental design of the system itself. I doubt they introduced the whole concept of variable frequencies simply in response to XSX having a beefier GPU. There are other aspects at play here and we don't know how it's going to play out. The narrative that you're projecting just seems like an oversimplification based on old paradigms of how consoles work.

In the end, you might turn out to be right, but it's not absolutely clear yet and just based on a lot of assumptions, such as: "The only reason they can't run at max clocks is because of thermals"

Don't buy it, SmartShift was designed for laptops by AMD because if thermal issues. The design you talking about could be thermal limitation of traditional console factor. Also, GPU at 2.2Ghz is madness, so obviously that's pushing thermals.

 

[devilNprada]

Sony will yuk it up when winning, but will zip it when there's nothing good to say.

not unlike you though... If it were 14 tf you wouldn't be here being so boisterous .

 

[Null_Key]

People shouldn't get carried away with the TFs (or Mhz) don't matter arguments. While that is true when comparing different architectures, when comparing the the same arch these numbers are very consistent with final performance. The SSD could even things out, but the raw performance differences still matter. Though both are very close too each other when using PS5's boost clocks, it's not a huge difference (Xbone was in way worse position).

I'm surprised that Sony isn't supporting NVMe upgrades via a memorycard-esque option.

They did something like that with Vita... it didn't end well.

 

[Naudyboy16]

I was leaning towards the Series X anyway, but now I’m firmly happy about that decision. Game pass with the most powerful console spec wise, it’s a good time to be a gamer. I’ll get a PS5 down the line when it drops in price or gets packaged with a game.

 

[Reindeer]

You obviously know this because you must be a Playstation Engineer working for Mark Cerny, got it.

No, but I know why SmartShift was created by AMD. It was created for laptops for thermal limitation and the fact that CPU and GPU on PS5 can't both hit their max clocks proves this. You don't need to be a genius to figure this out. Looks like you fell for Cerny's marketing ploy.

 

[Zero707]

So why are you sucking off some twitter dudes? I have a new site for you. It is called NeoFags.com

 

[Kazekage1981]

Well no pop in, no loading screens and no pseudo loading screens for one.

The wouldn't be able to increase gfx overall unless they took special restrictive measures like reducing rotation speed and only loading what is in front at one time - that could give an increase in overall quality, but as usually stuff behind is much the same as stuff infront it wouldn't be a huge gain. They'd also be able to free up memory - so maybe more texture detail overal - but the GPU might be the limit on that ..

Mostly QOL improvements imo

What does QOL mean? Since SSD is all about streaming game assets would PS4PRo:

For Grand Theft Auto 5: Would I see more foliage and realistic looking textures ?
For Gran Turismo 5: Would flat looking cardboard cut out trees be actual trees and with real grass blades? Would textures of the cars, and roads look more real?
The Last of Us 2: Would the levels be bigger?
God of War 4 and Uncharted 4: Would Kratos and drake have more realsitc manly looks an be able to show sweat drops? Tee hee

 

[DaGwaphics]

They did something like that with Vita... it didn't end well.

Just seems easier for the consumer (although likely a bit more expensive). With that said, as long as you can archive XSX/PS5 to a usb HDD, I can see a lot of users just making the base storage work on both.

 

[vdopey]

You see the thing is if this custom ssd turns out to be the wunderkin some devs are making out and what Cerny is making out then yes this could be impressive as we are basically talking about the ssd just acting like another RAM pool - so in essence this could be a game changer for open world games most likely, but I don't see how this would benefit many Genres such as FPS. (I really don't have the time for open world games anymore)

Sony has offloaded a lot of the compute onto dedicated silicon - which I think will hurt them for backwards compatibility and they have spent a lot on this, the custom io handling, the custom sound chip handling - none of this is cheap and could become problematic trying to maintain backwards compatibility for future consoles, like the cell on the ps3.

The truth will lie in multi-plat games and I don't see EA, Activision, Ubisoft etc using any of the tech that Sony has added properly, the hardware between the XSX and PS5 is similar enough to go the easiest route which is to basically code for the similarities of the platform and ignore anything that isn't compatible and this is why raw gpu / cpu compute power will have the most effect. PS5 exclusives may well shock and awe though. The problem will be in DF comparisons and other comparison videos you just cant fake raw compute, the xsx has more raw compute available, its that simple at best its around 2 TF difference, depending on how well or badly the scaling works, I dont personally trust it - I think this is just asking for trouble.

They have not addressed VR at all, I would have thought more CU units would be better for VR, this solution just sounds like they did it to cut costs, because they spent far too much on audio and ssd, nothing more nothing less and I would have personally preferred paying more for a console that is more future proof than what they are currently offering. I will most likely buy this I still have PS+ I think until 2022, but I'm not ecstatic about what they are offering. If they sell this for $399 and xbox turns out to be $599 then they have done well, but I doubt it, I reckon MS is going to fight really hard this gen and the xsx will probably be priced at most $50 more. If this is more than $399 then I might just hold out until the pro as I don't think its worth any more - I would have been willing to pay $599 for a 13TF version of this, my phone costs much more.

Don't get me wrong, its by no means terrible, its just I expected Sony to shock and awe, especially with how much I thought they would be pushing VR.

 

[Hendrick's]

Nah - I think it'll reach 10+TF but it'll be hot.

A lot of those discredited leakers seem to have got a lot right .. everything except the TF number - ie delay on BackCompat, was going to launch 2019, problems with heat - it all matches what we know now, or can read between the lines from the info from the talk ..

I think variable clock rates on a console is a dumb idea.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Is there any truth to what this guy is saying?

Yeah, I remember Cerny talking about make the die more SPU-like for audio processing. It's kind of cool how while the Cell was an abomination of an architecture, Cerny managed to at least re-purpose it in a sense.

 

[CJY]

Don't buy it, SmartShift was designed for laptops by AMD because if thermal issues. The design you talking about could be thermal limitation of traditional console factor. Also, GPU at 2.2Ghz is madness, so obviously that's pushing thermals.

Sure, but my phone is also pushing thermals, but everyone from Cerny himself, to DF plus joe bloggs is saying that the reason for variable clocks on PS5 isn't simply due to thermals. It's a fundamentally different approach.

Looks, max clocks speeds, (fixed or variable) by themselves are pointless. It comes down to the devs and how they use the power.

I can max out all a core of my CPU by typing "yes > /dev/null" into the terminal, and if I have a quad core, I can max it out with " yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null" and so on... This is pointless, and wasteful, but it does show how max clock speeds isn't what's important, it's devs. We'll see shit looking games running inefficiently and using tonnes of power, and great looking running super efficiently on both consoles and sipping that juice nicely.

Let's hold off a bit until we see the games, shall we? Cos my prediction is that we're gonna see games that blow us away on both consoles.

 

[HawarMiran]

lil bitch

 

[DaGwaphics]

Don't get me wrong, its by no means terrible, its just I expected Sony to shock and awe, especially with how much I thought they would be pushing VR.

VR is primarily about immersion, the audio and controller sound like the perfect tools for that. The GPU is a huge leap from the pro, VR should be amazing on PS5. Hoping MS at least supports some kind of VR option.

 

[farmerboy]

Sony has always been like that. People should dig up those old PS2 or PS3 slides where they bragged about thrashing Nintendo and MS (I forget if Sega was in there too), and then during Xbox One that Shu guy (again) and that fat blonde guy with glasses did that YT video about borrowing games when MS was getting flak for used game DRM which wasn't even released in the final version.

Sony will yuk it up when winning, but will zip it when there's nothing good to say.

That's why it took so long for PS5 details to come out.

Oh please, as if Greenberg's not gonna crawl outta his cave any second now to lord it over Sony.

I love it, it's hilarious.

 

[Null_Key]

No, but I know why SmartShift was created by AMD. It was created for laptops for thermal limitation and the fact that CPU and GPU on PS5 can't both hit their max clocks proves this. You don't need to be a genius to figure this out. Looks like you fell for Cerny's marketing ploy.

Just as RDNA 2 is different from RDNA 1, likewise its undetermined what there thermal solution is until we see this. You are basing off a hypothesis based on current limitation, Sony hasn't shown it's hand to make that conjecture yet. I don't disagree with the notion of 2.23 GHZ being way to high, but at the same, I keep my self form forming a cognition that limits what could be potentially be done. If your basis is always on previous hardware limitations, progress cant be made. You can lecture me if your hypothesis is proven to be correct, bookmark it, but until I see what the action arc in motion is like, i'm not gonna self impose a limit of what in can be. This is precisely why I want to see a tech demo running realtime with benchmark, because unlike this discussion, its based on facts.

 

[xool]

What does QOL mean? Since SSD is all about streaming game assets would PS4PRo:

For Grand Theft Auto 5: Would I see more foliage and realistic looking textures ?
For Gran Turismo 5: Would flat looking cardboard cut out trees be actual trees and with real grass blades? Would textures of the cars, and roads look more real?
The Last of Us 2: Would the levels be bigger?
God of War 4 and Uncharted 4: Would Kratos and drake have more realsitc manly looks an be able to show sweat drops? Tee hee

Quality of Life.

I think the answer is no to all, or minor improvement - GT5 is a good example - you could improve texture/detail level by rapidly unloading everything the car passes on the track, and using that freed memory to add more detail to the view .. but .. what if you rapidly spin the car - maybe get massive pop in/LOD issues - the SSD is fast but not that fast .. that's the problem - it solves loading issues, but isn't fast enough to replace ram. And the improvement is only 2x not 10x

It's the same problem for the others.

 

[longdi]

Sure, but my phone is also pushing thermals, but everyone from Cerny himself, to DF plus joe bloggs is saying that the reason for variable clocks on PS5 isn't simply due to thermals. It's a fundamentally different approach.

Looks, max clocks speeds, (fixed or variable) by themselves are pointless. It comes down to the devs and how they use the power.

I can max out all a core of my CPU by typing "yes > /dev/null" into the terminal, and if I have a quad core, I can max it out with " yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null" and so on... This is pointless, and wasteful, but it does show how max clock speeds isn't what's important, it's devs. We'll see shit looking games running inefficiently and using tonnes of power, and great looking running super efficiently on both consoles and sipping that juice nicely.

Let's hold off a bit until we see the games, shall we? Cos my prediction is that we're gonna see games that blow us away on both consoles.

Don't cry when Sony shows PS5 tdp. Expect to be same or likely worse than the more powerful SeriesX.

You can quote me.
Overclocking is over clocking. There is no magic sauce

 

[icerock]

Is there any truth to what this guy is saying?

Only partially, he is right when he's talking about Sony innovating on SSD and Audio. It's genuinely impressive on both fronts.

It falls apart thereafter though, variable frequency is a muddy topic until they clarify the minimum baseline for both CPU/GPU. Also, memory bandwidth is too low.

SMH. While there's no fast or slow ram pool on PS5, it will still have limit how much GPU and CPU can access. Microsoft obviously gives more bandwidth to GPU because it's common and sense and leaves slower ram for CPU because it doesn't need as fast bandwidth. This is a common sense approach from Microsoft and there shouldn't be much difference between the two consoles ( hence why DF didn't even give this attention), but you making it a big deal, smh.

Dude, your takeaway from my posts are all the wrong aspects and I suspect you're thinking of me as a console warrior.

I'm not sure why you're bringing PS5 into this debate again and again. It's not a well balanced machine, this is what I've been writing in these threads, feel free to dig up my posts. PS5 in itself will be starved off bandwidth given 256 bit bus and it'll be feeding a highly clocked GPU, CPU. I expect 4K CB on PS5 all along, and RT effects to be quite limited.

But, these limitations are also applicable to Series X (albeit not to the same extent) Does Series X posses better memory solution than PS5? Yes. Could it have done with more memory bandwidth to push native 4K and RT effects given the GPU/CPU at its disposal, also yes. I just feel, it had more potential and memory configuration is the only chink on an otherwise perfect machine for Xbox.

 

[CJY]

Don't cry when Sony shows PS5 tdp. Except to be same or likely worse than SeriesX.

You can quote me.
Overclocking is over clocking. There is no magic sauce

TDP is 150W vs 180X for XSX

 

[johnjohn]

lil bitch

Lmao someone had a bad day today.

 

[Zero707]

lil bitch

#StaySalty

 

[longdi]

TDP is 150W vs 180X for XSX

Where you see that? Hopefully not from shitty insiders again

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Don't buy it, SmartShift was designed for laptops by AMD because if thermal issues. The design you talking about could be thermal limitation of traditional console factor. Also, GPU at 2.2Ghz is madness, so obviously that's pushing thermals.

I would like a citation for that because according to AMD, SmartShift allocates more power to the CPU for CPU-intensive programs and more power to the GPU for GPU-intensive programs. That sounds more like optimization on a limited power budget than anything related to thermals. Laptops running battery, especially, are limited by power draw.

 

[Null_Key]

Just seems easier for the consumer (although likely a bit more expensive). With that said, as long as you can archive XSX/PS5 to a usb HDD, I can see a lot of users just making the base storage work on both.

I suppose its all relative perspective, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here, but I do worry the specialized nature of the SSD and its controller function in comparison to a 3rd party vendor.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Is there any truth to what this guy is saying?

Gives insight and it's what I thought. This right here needs to be talked about more. It's basically freeing up gpu intensive stuff and allowing the gpu to focus on other things so in the end it looks like psv might be just as powerful or who knows even more.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Oh please, as if Greenberg's not gonna crawl outta his cave any second now to lord it over Sony.

I love it, it's hilarious.

Nothing from Spencer, Hyrb or Greenberg. Past few days all of them have said virtually nothing aside from a handful of boring retweets.

 

[demigod]

Was this caught @Mod of War ? Coincidence

Yeah I brought this up a few pages ago, sure amused me as well

Ya it’s hilarious people were calling it fake due to the laptop. I said it before but using a vaio shouldn’t have discredit him, people just don’t throw away laptops and buy a new one like iphones.

 

[Imtjnotu]

It seems nearly in every category Series X outdid PS5

GPU CUs
GPU TFs
CPU clock speed
SSD Size
Expanding SSD instead of replacing
Full backwards compatibility
Enhanced backwards compatibility showcase
Smart delivery
Multi game switching showcased
Auto HDR for old games

The only thing PS5 has over Series X is

Higher clockspeed for GPU and even that's variable seems like wishy washy damage control as most likely can't handle high clockspeed at all times

Faster SSD very cool feature but if 3rd party games need to run on Series X they won't take advantage of faster SSD in terms of gameplay design other than quicker loading.

3D Audio

It didn't help they barely mentioned Ray tracing making me think it can't do it as well as Series X, and no mention of VRS.

What a shit show from Sony. If it was this bad they should have announced with exclusive games.

You're able to add an sad to ps5. Not take the oem one out.

 

[Stuart360]

Gives insight and it's what I thought. This right here needs to be talked about more. It's basically freeing up gpu intensive stuff and allowing the gpu to focus on other things so in the end it looks like psv might be just as powerful or who knows even more.

Oh jesus. Its my bed time i think, later guys.

 

[Reindeer]

Sure, but my phone is also pushing thermals, but everyone from Cerny himself, to DF plus joe bloggs is saying that the reason for variable clocks on PS5 isn't simply due to thermals. It's a fundamentally different approach.

Looks, max clocks speeds, (fixed or variable) by themselves are pointless. It comes down to the devs and how they use the power.

I can max out all a core of my CPU by typing "yes > /dev/null" into the terminal, and if I have a quad core, I can max it out with " yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null" and so on... This is pointless, and wasteful, but it does show how max clock speeds isn't what's important, it's devs. We'll see shit looking games running inefficiently and using tonnes of power, and great looking running super efficiently on both consoles and sipping that juice nicely.

Let's hold off a bit until we see the games, shall we? Cos my prediction is that we're gonna see games that blow us away on both consoles.

DF themselves said that it's basically AMD SmartShift technology. Just use your brain, why can't the console hit both max clocks for both GPU and CPU and has to have one give in to the other? It's obviously thermal limitation that is being taken into account or else it wouldn't be a problem. This is exactly how SmartShift functions, Cerny just dressed it as something else. Sure, you can say it's for balance and other BS, but not being able to maintain max boost performance for both CPU and GPU at the same time can only mean thermals. Now thermals maybe isn't the only reason they are doing this and this way they can get more out of the system, but thermals is definitely a part of it. Hint: Those GPU clocks have a lot to do with it imo.

 

[CJY]

Where you see that? Hopefully not from shitty insiders again

I saw it earlier on Neogaf in an image comparison of the specs of both machines. I can't find it now.

 

[Reindeer]

Just as RDNA 2 is different from RDNA 1, likewise its undetermined what there thermal solution is until we see this. You are basing off a hypothesis based on current limitation, Sony hasn't shown it's hand to make that conjecture yet. I don't disagree with the notion of 2.23 GHZ being way to high, but at the same, I keep my self form forming a cognition that limits what could be potentially be done. If your basis is always on previous hardware limitations, progress cant be made. You can lecture me if your hypothesis is proven to be correct, bookmark it, but until I see what the action arc in motion is like, i'm not gonna self impose a limit of what in can be. This is precisely why I want to see a tech demo running realtime with benchmark, because unlike this discussion, its based on facts.

I'm basing it off why AMD created this solution, it was for laptops and their thermal limitation. Funny enough it shows up on PS5 that has GPU clocked very high.

 

[xool]

TDP is 150W vs 180X for XSX

Don't think we've got TDP yet. Source?

 

[On Demand]

I'm still confused about backwards compatibility on PS5 and SX. Can we play games from the SSD, or we have use an external HDD?

 

[The Mad Draklor]

DF themselves said that it's basically AMD SmartShift technology. Just use your brain, why can't the console hit both max clocks for both GPU and CPU and has to have one give in to the other? It's obviously thermal limitation that is being taken into account or else it wouldn't be a problem. This is exactly how SmartShift functions, Cerny just dressed it as something else. Sure, you can say it's for balance and other BS, but not being able to maintain max boost performance for both CPU and GPU at the same time can only mean thermals. Now thermals maybe isn't the only reason they are doing this and this way they can get more out of the system, but thermals is definitely a part of it. Hint: Those GPU clocks have a lot to do with it imo.

Thermals have to do with how much heat is produced.

SmartShift addresses power draw which is entirely different from thermals. In the case for the PS5, its power draw is dependent on its power supply.

 

[Jman1553]

So if I heard the presentation right...
36 RDNA 2 CUs = 58 GCN CUs...?
Would that make RDNA2 1.6x the performance of GCN?
If so (and I doubt it, I know nothing about this stuff) a PS5 would be 16.5TFLOPS using GCN, and Series X would be 19.5
That would also make sense with the whole "Gears 5 on Xbox One X runs 4k 30fps while Series X is 4k ~100fps"

That's nuts.

Also, it definitely sounds like those "top 100" PS4 games was for PS5 enhancements, not that the PS5 can only currently run 100 PS4 games.
We still need insight on that.

 

[Zero707]

I'm still confused about backwards compatibility on PS5 and SX. Can we play games from the SSD, or we have use an external HDD?

you can play bc games from hdd but you won't get faster load times

 

[demigod]

lil bitch

Im dying, what is this from.

 

[Kazekage1981]

Quality of Life.

I think the answer is no to all, or minor improvement - GT5 is a good example - you could improve texture/detail level by rapidly unloading everything the car passes on the track, and using that freed memory to add more detail to the view .. but .. what if you rapidly spin the car - maybe get massive pop in/LOD issues - the SSD is fast but not that fast .. that's the problem - it solves loading issues, but isn't fast enough to replace ram. And the improvement is only 2x not 10x

It's the same problem for the others.

So SSD will make the levels bigger, loading time gone, it wont actually improve graphics fidelity/lushness. Why harp on this 'getting rid of I/O bottleneck' ? The issue is with average lamens like me and majority of the people out there trying to understand this.

Lets say you compare Soul Calibur 6 with Xbone X with traditional HDD and PS4Pro with the same SSD technology as PS5 , besides Soul Calibur 6 having no load times on PS4Pro, would the game look/perform better on PS4Pro than Xbone X?

 

[HawarMiran]

Lmao someone had a bad day today.

how did I have a bad day? you braindamaged cunts think everyone who is annoyed by you is a Sony fanboy? Look at my posts about what I was saying about the PS5. Then try again lil boy

 

[DaGwaphics]

So if I heard the presentation right...
36 RDNA 2 CUs = 58 GCN CUs...?
Would that make RDNA2 1.6x the performance of GCN?
If so (and I doubt it, I know nothing about this stuff) a PS5 would be 16.5TFLOPS using GCN, and Series X would be 19.5

That's nuts.

Also, it definitely sounds like those "top 100" PS4 games was for PS5 enhancements, not that the PS5 can only currently run 100 PS4 games.
We still need insight on that.

I think they were just talking transistor count per CU.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I'm still confused about backwards compatibility on PS5 and SX. Can we play games from the SSD, or we have use an external HDD?

SeX. If you want to play it with the perks, faster loading time etc.... it has to be installed on the internal SSD or on the external custom Seagate SSD. If you want to play games without perks, it sounds like you can run the games straight off a normal external HDD.

 

[xool]

Now thermals maybe isn't the only reason they are doing this and this way they can get more out of the system, but thermals is definitely a part of it. Hint: Those GPU clocks have a lot to do with it imo.

i'mnotsayingitsthermalsbutitwasthethermals.gif

Oh jesus. Its my bed time i think, later guys.

Me too.

What a day.

 

[HawarMiran]

Im dying, what is this from.

I just googled "sucking gif" haha. That dude blows for sure

 

[Reindeer]

Thermals have to do with how much heat is produced.

SmartShift addresses power draw which is entirely different from thermals. In the case for the PS5, its power draw is dependent on its power supply.

SmartShift was designed to take off strain from GPU by reducing CPU performance and vice versa. This was designed to maintain good thermals on laptops. This is exactly what PS5 is doing, DF even said PS5 variable frequency is basically AMD SmartShift.

 

[TheStruggler]

So all these stupid numbers I dont understand, coming out of today what are the positives the ps5 has going forward with their hardware specs released today? Serious question because again I dont understand numbers

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Same here. What a fun day. At least we FINALLY got specs for both systems. Now we just need MS to spill the beans on Lockhart.