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NeoGAF Games of the Year 2015 Awards

AniHawk

Member
Okay, how about this.
Every major male character not named Joel or Tommy are killed in TLOU.
I don't see any pattern

it's just a point that the start of the game starts with trying to save a girl and the end of the game has a climactic sequence where you're trying to save a teenage girl. it seems that if a girl is in some sort of peril, it's done to make the male character care more, or for you to care about the male character more for losing or almost losing the girl character. i think you can bring up sam and henry sure, but that might also bring up a point about how every non-white person in the game is killed off in some fashion too.

again, i don't think it's an intentional thing. i would be surprised if it was. it's probably a subconscious thing though.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
it's just a point that the start of the game starts with trying to save a girl and the end of the game has a climactic sequence where you're trying to save a teenage girl. it seems that if a girl is in some sort of peril, it's done to make the male character care more, or for you to care about the male character more for losing or almost losing the girl character. i think you can bring up sam and henry sure, but that might also bring up a point about how every non-white person in the game is killed off in some fashion too.

again, i don't think it's an intentional thing. i would be surprised if it was. it's probably a subconscious thing though.

That's why I prefer Amy's writing, she's much better at this kind of stuff.
 

AniHawk

Member
I'll be right there with you if Elena wasn't written better than 99% of female characters out there, lead or not.

seeing elena in uncharted 2 made me want her as the lead character of uncharted 2 and nathan drake to be an antagonist. maybe not a villain, but someone out for treasure and glory while she's trying to get a news story.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
seeing elena in uncharted 2 made me want her as the lead character of uncharted 2 and nathan drake to be an antagonist. maybe not a villain, but someone out for treasure and glory while she's trying to get a news story.

That's why I want Nate and Elena have a daughter to lead Uncharted 5.

Maybe we can finally have a female action hero that isn't written like a joke.
 

AniHawk

Member
Or it's not really a thing at all.

oh it's definitely something. if you're making a story-focused video game, you can at least try to not go down the route of fridging women and killing all the non-whites when you want your emotional impact. i mean i feel that it's the writer's duty to be at least aware that it's a thing, right? that it could be avoided, right?
 

zsynqx

Member
it's just a point that the start of the game starts with trying to save a girl and the end of the game has a climactic sequence where you're trying to save a teenage girl. it seems that if a girl is in some sort of peril, it's done to make the male character care more, or for you to care about the male character more for losing or almost losing the girl character. i think you can bring up sam and henry sure, but that might also bring up a point about how every non-white person in the game is killed off in some fashion too.

again, i don't think it's an intentional thing. i would be surprised if it was. it's probably a subconscious thing though.

https://youtu.be/Le6qIz7MjSk?t=2733
Watch him answer this question during a Q and A talking about the intro. The first thing he brings ups is that they all knew they were falling into certain tropes, so your assertion that he isn't aware of things like that may not be 100% true. Now I am not saying that Elena will not die in Uncharted 4, but I am certain that they will put a lot of though into how it is handled.

Or it's not really a thing at all.

Yer I am not really buying this narrative. I would rank TLOU and Left Behind both very highly when talking about presenting female characters in videogames.
 

Massa

Member
oh it's definitely something. if you're making a story-focused video game, you can at least try to not go down the route of fridging women and killing all the non-whites when you want your emotional impact. i mean i feel that it's the writer's duty to be at least aware that it's a thing, right? that it could be avoided, right?

If that's how you feel about the writing in TLOU there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but even still that was just one game
and one where a lot of people die
and Druckmann's first as the lead writer. Let's see what he does next before assigning a pattern to him.

Dark Souls 2.5 winning.

Fallout 4 in the Top 10.

Mario Maker barely hitting the Top 10.

Disappointing is all I can say.

If 'disappointing' is all you can say perhaps you don't enjoy video games as much as you should.
 
Dark Souls 2.5

If that's your grand analysis of Bloodborne there's a chance you don't care about the series, haven't played it, or fully grasp why people loved it. If I'm wrong and you played enough of it to still arrive at this absurdity, I'll stand corrected.
 

AniHawk

Member
https://youtu.be/Le6qIz7MjSk?t=2733
Watch him answer this question during a Q and A talking about the intro. The first thing he brings ups is that they all knew they were falling into certain tropes, so your assertion that he isn't aware of things like that may not be 100% true. Now I am not saying that Elena will not die in Uncharted 4, but I am certain that they will put a lot of though into how it is handled.

i actually really like the last of us a lot. the design is absurdly strong in how it marries the story/setting to the gameplay. i can go on for a while as to why i think it works. i like a lot of the stuff with joel too, and how he'll touch his watch every now and again. i don't think druckmann answers the question effectively. it seemed like they were laser focused on killing off joel's daughter. why not his son? later in the game,
why is joel killing marlene? did joel have to kill marlene? maybe his opposition could have been tommy with some rewrites to the earlier part of the game.
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
I'll be right there with you if Elena wasn't written better than 99% of female characters out there, lead or not.

As much as I like Elena, the fact that she's better written than 99% of women in videogames is kinda depressing. Just being a believable human is enough to earn your place among the pantheon of great and not totally insulting female characters in videogaming.

But on the bright side, I think a lot of progress has been made. The fact that we're having this discussion in the first place is a sign of progress.
 
i actually really like the last of us a lot. the design is absurdly strong in how it marries the story/setting to the gameplay. i can go on for a while as to why i think it works. i like a lot of the stuff with joel too, and how he'll touch his watch every now and again. i don't think druckmann answers the question effectively. it seemed like they were laser focused on killing off joel's daughter. why not his son? later in the game,
why is joel killing marlene? did joel have to kill marlene? maybe his opposition could have been tommy with some rewrites to the earlier part of the game.


Yes he had to do that
kill marlene

As for Elena meh im not bothered if she dies in the next game, Uncharted is not that emotional for me to care much about the side kicks. Why are we talking about this here anyway
 

Calabria

Banned
If this is Oscar, Bloodborne would've swept all the awards

- GOTY
- Best PS4
- Best RPG
- Widespread Appeal
- Passion
- Best New IP
- High Quality
 

Massa

Member
If that's your grand analysis of Bloodborne there's a chance you don't care about the series, haven't played it, or fully grasp why people loved it. If I'm wrong and you played enough of it to still arrive at this absurdity, I'll stand corrected.

I mean, at least call it Demon's Souls 1.5! Dark Souls 2 kind ruined that joke for him.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
As much as I like Elena, the fact that she's better written than 99% of women in videogames is kinda depressing. Just being a believable human is enough to earn your place among the pantheon of great and not totally insulting female characters in videogaming.

But on the bright side, I think a lot of progress has been made. The fact that we're having this discussion in the first place is a sign of progress.

I don't think Elena is well written in the "low standards" of video games, I think she's well written in any standard, even compared to film and literature.

Agreed on your second point.
 

zsynqx

Member
i actually really like the last of us a lot. the design is absurdly strong in how it marries the story/setting to the gameplay. i can go on for a while as to why i think it works. i like a lot of the stuff with joel too, and how he'll touch his watch every now and again. i don't think druckmann answers the question effectively. it seemed like they were laser focused on killing off joel's daughter. why not his son? later in the game,
why is joel killing marlene? did joel have to kill marlene? maybe his opposition could have been tommy with some rewrites to the earlier part of the game.

I imagine it was his
daughter
to help make the connection to Ellie. About
Marlene's
death, I think that is just showing how single minded Joel is at the end, where the only thing he cares about in that world is being with Ellie and is willing to kill anyone who threatens that.

Edit: Sorry for being off topic btw :p
 

Smash88

Banned
Still a bottom tier poster I see. Living up to your tag.

Hey now, it's just my thoughts on the listing.

The only opinions I give are top tier opinions. :)

If 'disappointing' is all you can say perhaps you don't enjoy video games as much as you should.

I can enjoy games and find certain games undeserving of others. I mean did you see some of the backlash when Bloodborne didn't win other GOTY lists? A GAF meme sprouted because of it.

If that's your grand analysis of Bloodborne there's a chance you don't care about the series, haven't played it, or fully grasp why people loved it. If I'm wrong and you played enough of it to still arrive at this absurdity, I'll stand corrected.

The Dark Souls/Demon Souls formula is so apparent in Bloodborne, how is it not an offshoot of it? It's like you guys are seeing something that isn't there. It baffles me - but then again that's my opinion on things.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Bloodborne given its due as proper GOTY, Yakuaza 5 gets the PS3 nod, and some EDF love to boot! ya'll done good, in particular time & cheese, thanks for all the hard work guys!

The Dark Souls/Demon Souls formula is so apparent in Bloodborne, how is it not an offshoot of it? It's like you guys are seeing something that isn't there. It baffles me - but then again that's my opinion on things.

yeah it's almost like the same people took that formula and vastly expanded on it with some fantastic design changes to give us a spiritual entry in the series, and also changed the dark setting and name to imply such

how you go from this to "dark souls 2.5" is really something
 
The Dark Souls/Demon Souls formula is so apparent in Bloodborne, how is it not an offshoot of it? It's like you guys are seeing something that isn't there. It baffles me.

Oh no I agree, it's pretty much a Souls game. However it has its own atmospheric style and offensive-based combat. It's like criticizing a sequel or spiritual successor for being... well, exactly that. And it still isn't an argument toward why it's some kind of bad thing for it getting its accolades.
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
I think that says more about the number of PS4 exclusives released last year than the quality of the Order.

Yeah...The Odor was the most high profile release after Bloodborne. Aside from Until Dawn it was mostly remasters. Not much of an accomplishment.
 

AniHawk

Member
I imagine it was his
daughter
to help make the connection to Ellie. About
Marlene's
death, I think that is just showing how single minded Joel is at the end, where the only thing he cares about in that world is being with Ellie and is willing to kill anyone who threatens that.

i mean thinking outside the context of the world in the game. i'm thinking that as a writer, could druckmann have made it so ellie reminded joel of his deceased son instead? with marlene, joel's choice could have been ambiguous. he'd already made his decision at the end of the game to
rescue ellie and as far as he knew, damn humanity. does killing marlene give us any further information?
and did marlene have to be marlene? i bring up tommy because he has ties and with a few rewrites could have been the character
joel brutally murders confronts instead.
i'm just trying to think if what we got was the best or if there were other solutions that might have been a bit more creative and even had more of an emotional impact.
 

Rocketz

Member
I'm happy to see Life is Strange and Ori do well. I didn't beat LIS until a week or so ago so I didn't count it on my list but I definitely would have if I had beat it sooner and I didn't already vote.
 

GamerJM

Banned
Man I'm not on anyone else's affinity list. I guess that's what you get when your list includes two Japan-only rhythm games on a region locked platform mixed with shit like Her Story and Aviary Attorney tho.
 

zsynqx

Member
i mean thinking outside the context of the world of the game. i'm thinking that as a writer, could druckmann have made it so ellie reminded joel of his deceased son instead? with marlene, joel's choice could have been ambiguous. he'd already made his decision at the end of the game to
rescue ellie and as far as he knew, damn humanity. does killing marlene give us any further information?
and did marlene have to be marlene? i bring up tommy because he has ties and with a few rewrites could have been the character
joel brutally murders confronts instead.
i'm just trying to think if what we got was the best or if there were other solutions that might have been a bit more creative and even had more of an emotional impact.

Well the game already had massive rewrites during production, with Tess initially being the antagonist trailing Joel across the country hoping to get revenge for her lost brother, who's death she blamed on Joel. Maybe further re-writes could have improved the game in the ways you were hoping, but for me the game that we ended up getting did a fantastic job telling it's story while presenting a diverse cast of characters who made interesting choices and had proper arcs.

I am currently trying to re write TLOU in my head with Tommy being the head of the fireflies :p

Edit: Oh and about Marlene,
when Joel kills her he says "you'd just come after her"
so I feel his motivations were pretty clear. Or are you just saying it didn't need to be shown?
 

AniHawk

Member
Well the game already had massive rewrites during production, with Tess initially being the antagonist trailing Joel across the country hoping to get revenge for her lost brother, who's death she blamed on Joel. Maybe further re-writes could have improved the game in the ways you were hoping, but for me the game that we ended up getting did a fantastic job telling it's story while presenting a diverse cast of characters who made interesting choices and had proper arcs.

I am currently trying to re write TLOU in my head with Tommy being the head of the fireflies :p

i think druckmann does a generally good job with dialogue, but the bigger pieces and tropey stuff is where he has problems. this is where i think uncharted 4 is going to fall apart, at least for me.

i'm all for a the last of us 2, assuming it doesn't follow ellie and joel and is stuck in the same world. or if they do something else, i'm looking forward to it too. i was actually really down on the last of us before it released, but they made a really good product. they've earned back my trust.

Edit: Oh and about Marlene,
when Joel kills her he says "you'd just come after her"
so I feel his motivations were pretty clear. Or are you just saying it didn't need to be shown?

right.
it could have cut the whole part with marlene trying to stop him, actually. or it cold have cut as she was begging for him not to kill her, and before he pulls the trigger. again, we know at this point what joel's motivations are and how far he's willing to go to save ellie, so we don't need to know he's all for killing someone else. that should have been clear in the hospital massacre. at the same time, you know that he just saved this girl, so maybe he has some of his humanity intact and is willing to let marlene be.
 

AniHawk

Member
Uncharted is literally intentionally based on tropes. I don't really care if it has tropes; it's going to have LOADS. I also don't want it to be this all of a sudden serious story with heavy death scenes and shit.

that's what i mean though. it'll probably go for fun-tropey and then also have unintentional cliches while being a serious thing.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
Uncharted is literally intentionally based on tropes. I don't really care if it has tropes; it's going to have LOADS. I also don't want it to be this all of a sudden serious story with heavy death scenes and shit.

Uncharted is full of fun tropes, nothing Dark or "emotional", the mainline series is getting a new writer for the first time, that's why people are worried Uncharted will go from hilarious tropes like every building Nate touches explodes to a tearbait trope like Elena getting fridged.
 

zsynqx

Member
Uncharted is full of fun tropes, nothing Dark or "emotional", the mainline series is getting a new writer for the first time, that's why people are worried Uncharted will go from hilarious tropes like every building Nate touches explodes to a tearbait trope like Elena getting fridged.

I will be very happy if they tone that stuff down.

I hope it greatly subverts my expectations by setting itself up as serious or whatever but then ends up being not so much. With the subtitle, TLOU guys doing it, Sam being suspicious and so on there's a lot of signs pointing at being Grimcharted, but I'd rather it not be. It can have emotion and stuff like that without being too serious. I just think there's a place for things and I don't really want to feel down or drab playing Uncharted.

Straley on this ;)
https://youtu.be/1a2chkYgBGQ?t=1953
 
that's what i mean though. it'll probably go for fun-tropey and then also have unintentional cliches while being a serious thing.

I hope it greatly subverts my expectations by setting itself up as serious or whatever but then ends up being not so much. With the subtitle, TLOU guys doing it, Sam being suspicious and so on there's a lot of signs pointing at being Grimcharted, but I'd rather it not be. It can have emotion and stuff like that without being too serious. I just think there's a place for things and I don't really want to feel down or drab playing Uncharted.

Uncharted is full of fun tropes, nothing Dark or "emotional", the mainline series is getting a new writer for the first time, that's why people are worried Uncharted will go from hilarious tropes like every building Nate touches explodes to a tearbait trope like Elena getting fridged.

I think these guys are brilliant and talented and should know how to handle it. I'm greatly excited. I'm just going to have serious reservations if they try to make it dark, emotionally grim or tonally awkward with the rest of the series.
 

Calabria

Banned
2016 will be epic as well

- Dark Souls 3
- Uncharted 4
- Persona 5
- ME: Andromeda
- DE: Mankind Divided
- The Last Guardian
- Horizon: Zero Dawn
- Nier: Automata
- Ni-Oh
- Gravity Rush 2
- Quantum Break
- Zelda U
- Rise of the Tomb Raider (PS4/PC)
- Toukiden 2 <----- ma boy
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Kudos as always to all the voters and everyone involved in parsing and presenting the data. Brilliant community effort that gets better every year.


So, with the full understanding that it's a collection of votes from an extremely diverse set of viewpoints and preferences and experiences and not a curated list, meaning that it's not like there's really anything to argue about in particular or anyone to argue with, just an interesting data set to examine and appreciate... all that being said and taken into account, as well as noting that complaining about any sort of entertainment media ranking is very much a fruitless, hollow effort...

The list is in the wrong order to the point of travesty. I don't have any strong feelings in reaction to the placement of anything else in the top 20 -- or top 100 for that matter -- and can readily accept how they all ended up in the spots that they did regardless of my personal preferences about the video games of 2015.

But.

It doesn't even feel vaguely plausible on any level to any synapse in my brain that what is something of an alternate universe followup to Demon's Souls where all the refinements of Dark Souls never happened, that also retains extremely problematic and fundamentally and continually painful unresolved technical issues that all contribute to placing it firmly beneath one if not two other games in its lineage, could ever conceivably beat The Witcher 3 in this list. It's sort of existentially painful to witness. I'll just leave it at that.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
I will be very happy if they tone that stuff down.

I hope not, the self-aware jokes in the series are funny, and they're the good kind of intentional tropes, I don't want to hear a cheesy monologue from Drake, I want to hear a quip about Sully's mustache.
 

Horp

Member
Unsuprising list, but personally I cant understand how so many can like MGSV and FO4 this much. Two really boring games imo. (And i loved most games in both series).
 

Alo0oy

Banned
Kudos as always to all the voters and everyone involved in parsing and presenting the data. Brilliant community effort that gets better every year.


So, with the full understanding that it's a collection of votes from an extremely diverse set of viewpoints and preferences and experiences and not a curated list, meaning that it's not like there's really anything to argue about in particular or anyone to argue with, just an interesting data set to examine and appreciate... all that being said and taken into account, as well as noting that complaining about any sort of entertainment media ranking is very much a fruitless, hollow effort...

The list is in the wrong order to the point of travesty. I don't have any strong feelings in reaction to the placement of anything else in the top 20 -- or top 100 for that matter -- and can readily accept how they all ended up in the spots that they did regardless of my personal preferences about the video games of 2015.

But.

It doesn't even feel vaguely plausible on any level to any synapse in my brain that what is something of an alternate universe followup to Demon's Souls where all the refinements of Dark Souls never happened, that also retains extremely problematic and fundamentally and continually painful unresolved technical issues that all contribute to placing it firmly beneath one if not two other games in its lineage, could ever conceivably beat The Witcher 3 in this list. It's sort of existentially painful to witness. I'll just leave it at that.

But Demon's Souls is better than both Dark Souls and Bloodborne. Its world has a certain character and charm that is not present in the latter two.
 

zsynqx

Member
I hope not, the self-aware jokes in the series are funny, and they're the good kind of intentional tropes, I don't want to hear a cheesy monologue from Drake, I want to hear a quip about Sully's mustache.

Or maybe somewhere in the middle where you still have the fun pulpy adventure, but with a story and characters who are presented with a little more depth than the previous entries. That is what I want.

It doesn't even feel vaguely plausible on any level to any synapse in my brain that what is something of an alternate universe followup to Demon's Souls where all the refinements of Dark Souls never happened, that also retains extremely problematic and fundamentally and continually painful unresolved technical issues that all contribute to placing it firmly beneath one if not two other games in its lineage, could ever conceivably beat The Witcher 3 in this list. It's sort of existentially painful to witness. I'll just leave it at that.

Agreed on this point and Dark 1 is still the best by a wide margin. You do have to credit BB though for it's world and the excellent moment to moment combat
 
Agreed on this point and Dark 1 is still the best by a wide margin. You do have to credit BB though for it's world and the excellent moment to moment combat

That and the lore. Its key pillars of level design, combat and lore are all excellent. But it's just different enough when compared to Souls to appeal to people who didn't get on with the slower more methodical combat of the Souls series. It doesn't want to be Dark Souls 3, which is a good thing as we get that this year anyway. Let it be its own thing.

If we're talking fundamental problems I'd say TW3 has far bigger ones.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
If 'disappointing' is all you can say perhaps you don't enjoy video games as much as you should.

Is it even possible that I enjoy games as much as I should? The first game in the list that I played was MGS5 (hated it), the first one that I liked is Life is Strange (but only found it OK, deeply flawed), the first game on the list that I think is great is Super Mario Maker and my number 1 is number 20 on this list.

Why are we talking Last of Us character's sex in the 2015 GotY Awards?

If this is Oscar, Bloodborne would've swept all the awards

- GOTY
- Best PS4
- Best RPG
- Widespread Appeal
- Passion
- Best New IP
- High Quality
You should keep in mind that the winner of the overall ballot usually wins many others, too, automatically the one of its console and its genre, this is just a consequence of the way these lists get compiled.

Too bad the recommendations don't seem to be so great for me this year :(
My top ten recommendations:
1. [NWU] Splatoon (Shooter) = 20 points - I have it, it's OK, especially for a shooter, but I don't like online.
2. [NWU] Xenoblade Chronicles X (RPG) = 13 points, 1 honorable mention - I have it, it is boring as hell
3. [PS4] Bloodborne (RPG) = 7 points - I hate games that needlessly complicate their mechanics, Bloodborne looks like the absolute opposite of an arcady game
4. [360][XB1][PS3][PS4][PC] Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain (Action) = 6 points - I have it and hate it.
5. [PC] Undertale (RPG) = 5 points - I don't play on PC
6. [PS4][PC] Rocket League (Sports) = 5 points - it's a sports game and therefore automatically disqualified
7. [XB1][PS4][PC] The Witcher III: Wild Hunt (RPG) = 5 points - I was told everything I hate about Xenoblade is also in this game (busywork and grinding as the main game content)
8. [3DS] Code Name: S.T.E.A.M. (Strategy) = 4 points - Maybe I should try that
9. [PS4][PC] Axiom Verge (Adventure) = 3 points - It's not for Vita? I thought I played and liked it on Vita. If not, it was another Metroid-like game; and in this case I should probably try Axiom Verge
10. [NWU] Runbow (Platform) = 3 points - looks quite fun.
 

Koh

Member
These threads are easily among the best GAF has to offer. The summary quality, detail, and analytics provided are top notch and I want everyone involved in this effort to know just how much I appreciate it.

Thank you.
 
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