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My journey taught me how dangerous high weight/barbell exercises are
- Thread starter The Lamp
- Start date
I read Starting Strength (which I mentioned in this thread) months before I started. I'm an engineer so I understand forces and angles pretty well. I spent a long time working on my squat and deadlift technique and I've always been told it's great. My sports medicine and physical therapists even approved of my technique after I got injured. I also worked with certified personal trainers and followed admired advice online during my training. I went above and beyond the average beginner in time, money, care, and effort with this.
But go ahead and hand wave away a year of pain, diagnoses, a team of doctors, and everything I fucking shared including my explanation of tarlov cyst formation because it's easy if I made 1 mistake to say that I'm a wrong exception instead of admitting that there are some risks to heavy lifting for beginners that are kind of carelessly understated or maybe not even considered in these discussions or recommendations. I never even said everyone would have my experience, I just shared mine and believe that more caution should be urged with heavy lifting for beginners, even after months of training. And that some exercises are just plain stressful on the joints in risky or dangerous ways that may or may not yield consequences depending on your body (ex: increase of vertical load on cerebrospinal fluid in the vertebrae causing meningeal cysts that only a few doctors in the world can even treat), but it would be nice to be drive more awareness of these types of risks to beginners.
I'm done with this toxicity. People not reading my posts, people being rude (calling me a "shitty liar" or insinuating that because one doesn't have all the details about my last year that I fucked up so badly beyond the average beginner that I clearly had what was coming to me), people scrutinizing my diet over 2-3 pounds or other personal details to find excuses to ignore whatever I'm saying. Some people were open to listening or thoughtful questioning/discussion but it was a little too much arrogant, deaf posting for me to want to continue.
Have a good day everyone. I'm done with this discussion.
cromofo
Member
It's not if the weights are suitable to their level.
Heck even the bar can be used to start.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Most people who hit the gym have no clue what they are doing and are incredibley unbalanced with their workouts. Often over working the 'fun' stuff while forgetting to equally strengthen the supporting and opposing muscle groups. Along with neglecting things like maintaining supplety with a good stretch or Yoga routine.
I have always worked out with a 2/3 bias towards the postural and core muscle groups. Humans are very unbalanced these days to begin with due to all the sitting around so it's important to try and stay on top of that. Plus a strong back, core and foundation is just going to give you a much better base to more safely do the 'fun' stuff.
I always advise any newcomer to spend their first year building a strong supporting foundation before they start ripping bench presses, squats and heavy curls and stuff. Your body will thank you later
I have always worked out with a 2/3 bias towards the postural and core muscle groups. Humans are very unbalanced these days to begin with due to all the sitting around so it's important to try and stay on top of that. Plus a strong back, core and foundation is just going to give you a much better base to more safely do the 'fun' stuff.
I always advise any newcomer to spend their first year building a strong supporting foundation before they start ripping bench presses, squats and heavy curls and stuff. Your body will thank you later
KillerMan91
Member
Starting to go gym properly (and doing everything including deadlifting, squating etc) is the reason why I currently have my back in good shape after injuring it 6 years ago. If I can't visit gym in something like two weeks my back pain comes back again. I mean you can injure yourself with bad form, rising the amount of weights too quickly, really bad luck etc. but usually weightlifting keeps your muscles and body in shape and so prevents things like back pain.
This thread is crazy. Here are ten doctors saying it's probably not a good idea to do these couple of specific exercises for these specific reasons and half the people in this thread just immediately go nope the highly trained professionals are wrong b/c of my anecdotal case of not being hurt yet.
cromofo
Member
The shit I hear from doctors. Not all are knowledgeable enough at every single thing and are probably ignorant about a lot of things.
For some of them I even wonder how'd they become one.
Not saying they're 100% wrong here but lets not act like they know everything or are bastions of truth/advice(on fitness).
yup
sorry the internet is full of little shits, OP
This is ten doctors, physiotherapists and neuroscientists
Yes, it's easy to get a ropey doctor who'll give you a bad diagnosis.
But even checking ONE more doctor you're likely to get a far better result.
Let alone ANOTHER.
Then ANOTHER.
Then a PHYSIO.
Come the fuck on
"Ignorant about a lot of things" = spinal neurosurgeons don't understand causes of spinal disease they treat = orthopedic surgeons don't understand diseases of the bones and joints?
https://www.tarlovcystfoundation.org/info/
https://www.spine-health.com/conditions/herniated-disc/lumbar-herniated-disc-causes-and-risk-factors
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/bursitis/symptoms-causes/dxc-20345519
Again, repetitive lifting over the head in general is a cause of bursitis. Heavy lifting in general (along with other things) is a cause of disc damage and it is believed to be a cause of tarlov cyst generation and growth. This just means they increase risk/probability of these complications, it doesn't mean it definitely happens to everyone. It's just a risk.
I didn't ask neurologists to do my taxes or build my house or even treat my other health issues, I asked them to fix me and help me understand what went wrong.
entremet
Member
With a barbell? Maybe an empty one to master form. But a total untrained beginner would benefit more with the non-weighted variations at first, such as air squats and calisthenics.
I love Starting Strength, but Rippetoe made his name training young field athletes, mostly American football players. These are guys in their genetic and hormonal prime and usually have no major physical issues, as they've been screened out via physicals to play the sport.
People love to hate on Crossfit, but Crossfit gyms that are not dumb with their programming, frequently get older untrained folks doing double bodyweight deadlifts. It's rather impressive.
Barbell lifts are not the end all be all of training but their benefit is that they're relatively safe due to full range of motion, you can microload them for progressive overload, and they can make you really strong if you're consistent. Dumbbells can get dangerous as you get up in weight and dumb bell deadlifts is what the OP was doing.
One thing I've realised is that there is no point in going completely insane with weights and pushing yourself too hard. There was a time where I would always push myself for PBs, but after a small injury I realised I wouldn't be able to sustain that for long. If I'm going to work out 40-50 more years, I have to watch out.
Yep. I shifted my cardio from running to swimming and its amazing how much less pain I have. I used to have nagging knee and lower back pain and it basically went away in like three weeks after I started swimming.
More on topic. I dont fuck with squats or deadlifts or clean and press. I ducked up a knee once doing squats and it took about two months to recover. Never again. Its too easy to make a mistake and injure yourself.
The Greek Freak
Member
Sorry to break it to you but body metrix is snake oil and measuring body fat with ultrasound isn't standardized at all properly and rather meaningless.
You might as well being try to heal your shoulder with crystals and holy water.
mindatlarge
Member
That sucks, man. Speak to your doctor first, but have you considered adding rowing to your revised exercise routine? You get a low impact, depending on your pace and tension, workout that helps build lean muscle and keeps you in tip top cardiovascular shape. It has been a godsend for me, being that it's pretty much a full body workout, it's a big time saver as well.
Speak to your doctor first, but have you considered adding rowing to your revised exercise routine? You get a low impact, depending on your pace and tension, workout that helps build lean muscle and keeps you in tip top cardiovascular shape. It has been a godsend for me, being that it's pretty much a full body workout, it's a big time saver as well.ResidentWeevil13
Member
Love swimming. I have some cartilage damage in my knees so running regularly will make them feel pretty shitty. Swimming became my go to. Unfortunately I developed a swimmer's shoulder and now I'm stuck on an elliptical for my cardio until my shoulder gets better
Japanmanx3
Member
Thanks for the thread OP.
I'm aware of how much of an idiot I look at the gym.
Physically, I'm a big guy, but in the gym I lift light because of the fear of injury. I can afford a gym membership, but I don't want to pay out the ass for a PT, so I look online for tutorials on how to do specific exercises then try them out at home.
I have no friends that are into lifting, so all my form and stuff comes from watching others. I fear that I may be fucking something up and will end up like the OP.
Physically, I'm a big guy, but in the gym I lift light because of the fear of injury. I can afford a gym membership, but I don't want to pay out the ass for a PT, so I look online for tutorials on how to do specific exercises then try them out at home.
I have no friends that are into lifting, so all my form and stuff comes from watching others. I fear that I may be fucking something up and will end up like the OP.
More_Badass
Member
Dont be afraid to ask others in the gym for advice and form appraisal; many are happy to help. Everyone was at the same place you are once.
The Greek Freak
Member
Unless you are doing things that actively annoy other people (making a mess, curling in the only open squat rack etc) the only people that negatively care about what you are doing are negative about anyone/everyone so fuck em.
Don't be scared to do multiple sessions of the same exercise with a stupid low amount of weight. While a 45 lb bar squat might not do much for your quads, learning the form properly is better than "safely" learning it in a smith machine which will only teach you bad habits.
Also don't be scared to ask someone who knows what they're doing to look at your form for 5 sec. Sometimes people are in an awkward spot, they see someone doing something super wrong, but unless they look like they might seriously injure themselves I don't want to be the dick interrupting their workout. If they ask? More than happy to help for a couple minutes.
Edit: Don't be like the OP, everyone has weird physical shit that makes certain lifts feel "wrong" if your shoulders always feel fucked (and not in a muscle burn sort of way) after multiple tries of military press, there are other shoulder exercises that aren't as good but are better for someone with a strange issue. Personally my wrists don't turn over all the way properly so I can't do anything holding a straight bar palms up without wrist (aka not muscle) pain. So the few exercises that use that I have replaced with lesser but better for me exercises. Some people don't have the flexibility for certain exercises and need to work on their flexibility before actually attempting them etc etc.
Doctors often play way too safe though. Other times they're just plain ignorant on the subject or don't care enough to explore it. There, I said it.
When I first started training I was 15yo. I hit the gym to recover from a injury to my knee that I had playing football. Doctor said to avoid any leg exercise that required my foot to stay on contact with a surface.. meaning I could only do the leg extension. And oh boy what a mistake that was.
I did it for about 2 years, almost no results whatsoever: still weak, still some pain. When I came back to the gym years later I still didn't do anything different than leg extension because I was afraid of damaging my knee.. until one day, after lots of reading, I went in full "fuck this shit" mode and started to squat. From 20kg to 100kg of today. I'm still pretty weak (my 1RM is 1.7 bw) but my knee is stronger than ever and I feel no pain.
How about that, doc? 😒
This doctor is one of only half a dozen in the world who treat this very specific and fairly rare spinal issue. 10% of his patients are "fitness professionals, trainers, and athletes". That is a fairly low amount to claim "the traditional gym routines people do cause tarlov cysts". I guarantee the doctor said that they increased the chance you would have that injury. In the same way washing your hands with Dawn increases your chance at getting cancer.
The issue here is that there are numerous cross-sectional studies done alongside professional athletes that have disproven the idea of an increased risk of injury in squats. If you are doing deep squats at a proper weight, you will have less chance of injury overall due to improvements in core stability. The exact opposite is true when people begin loading weights higher than they should and sacrificing form to lift these via quarter and half squats. Similarly, the most common and pervasive long-term dmage you can do to your body are not "injuries". Muscle imbalances can lead to chronic pain later in life and complex, multi-joint lifts like the deadlift, bench press, and squat are perfect for avoiding these.
The Journal of Athletic Training did a study on the injuries of elite bodybuilders and concluded:
This seems like a relatively low rate of injuries that are, in almost all cases, fairly minor. As opposed to the message of the OP's secondhand account from doctors that seems to suggest barbell training is a deadly epidemic. Combine that with studies on the growing rate of injuries as weight-training becomes more popular and it starts to paint a picture of injuries caused by lack of experience and improper training rather than an unavoidable danger of the training.
tl;dr: The message of be safe is fine. The idea that barbell training is anymore dangerous than. say, swimming is ridiculous.
Epidemiology of Injuries and Prevention Strategies in Competitive Swimmers for comparison
The Omega Man
Member
I am sorry OP, yes it's scary knowing that bulging disc back pain almost never disappear completely you just learn to live with it.
My brother in law was diagnosed with the same thing (herniated disc) (he got it for shoveling BTW) and he was in terrible pain for a year, after that he started "taming" the pain trough therapy until normal levels but he tells me it never really went 100% away and never will, he has to go trough extensive stretching everyday and has to be super careful of what he does and how he uses his back.
Never take your body for granted, be really careful when excising or doing something that puts your back to work.
My brother in law was diagnosed with the same thing (herniated disc) (he got it for shoveling BTW) and he was in terrible pain for a year, after that he started "taming" the pain trough therapy until normal levels but he tells me it never really went 100% away and never will, he has to go trough extensive stretching everyday and has to be super careful of what he does and how he uses his back.
Never take your body for granted, be really careful when excising or doing something that puts your back to work.
OP did hire personal trainers and was, by their word which I have no reason to doubt, perfectly safe. They were just unfortunate. The vast majority of people will be completely fine though.
The Greek Freak
Member
Honestly this is sadly not true often enough. Personal training "certificates" are basically garbage depending on the individual standard.
I've seen personal trainers give blatant lies as advice, and at times recommend dangerous shit.
I did something similar but not quite as serious. I started a Starting Strength Rippetoe routine after reading his book, visiting his message board and watching a ton of his instructional videos. I added deadlifts to my routine and once I got to a certain weight (without really doing the lift properly) I ended up herniating a disc in my low back. I crawled out of the gym and spent the next 2-3 days on the floor. I almost went to the ER because I was in so much pain. This occurred maybe 5-6 years ago and I have had low back disc pain ever since. I pretty much can never deadlift anymore and if I do squat I have to be extremely careful. I basically only do cardio and very light weights anymore because any spinal loading inflames my disc. It fucking sucks and I wish I knew better because the trauma has stuck with me ever since.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Would you trust a certified neurosurgeon about potential brain damage more than the average Joe who reads webMD? Yes or no?
Megawarrior
Member
I've been doing it for a year (well august of last year) and I'm just NOW feeling comfortable doing 60 lb dumbbells. 100 lbs in 3 months though!? Jesus.
Dead Prince
Banned
very unfortunate OP.
ive started lifting like 2 years or so ago and i've learned from mostly videos and taking it real slow. because there's not a lot of people into powerlifting at the commercial gym so i couldn't ask for advice on that. but the years i've been learning and listening to my body.
ive started lifting like 2 years or so ago and i've learned from mostly videos and taking it real slow. because there's not a lot of people into powerlifting at the commercial gym so i couldn't ask for advice on that. but the years i've been learning and listening to my body.
Saint of Killers
Member
All the best in getting through all of that, OP.
Q: what weights were you lifting when you started? How did you progress?
If OP has mentioned this before could someone link me to it, please.
I may well be coming to the end of my 3 years of cardio and plan to move on to strength training. I plan on doing linear progression (I'll start with an empty bar) and take it from there. Your post has me worried. Although I would take some of what your doctors say not all that seriously at all. (Mostly the whole thing about them being against lifting.)
Q: what weights were you lifting when you started? How did you progress?
If OP has mentioned this before could someone link me to it, please.
I may well be coming to the end of my 3 years of cardio and plan to move on to strength training. I plan on doing linear progression (I'll start with an empty bar) and take it from there. Your post has me worried. Although I would take some of what your doctors say not all that seriously at all. (Mostly the whole thing about them being against lifting.)
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Considering that this thread is about regular folks getting into shape and injuring themselves, Im not quite sure that studies of elite athletes is relevant. Do you have studies that show beginner stage barbell trainees have injuries on par with beginner stage swimming? That seems quite unlikely to me, frankly.
I hurt myself going for a 415lb deadlift but that was not the deadlifts fault.
I did not warm up enough, my head was somewhere else etc.
I'm not deadlifting currently because it became something that would flare up as soon as I go "heavy" again but I'm not blaming the exercise.
These things have proven to be effective if done with good form and a slow ramp up.
OP found an issue that would have otherwise not shown up and that's bad luck and crappy. But it could have shown up shoveling snow or from a weird fall doing basketball.
I thought the demonetization of the barbell was something of the past (partly thanks to Crossfit). Pay someone to train you, take it slow, chances are you will be fine and healthier for it.
I did not warm up enough, my head was somewhere else etc.
I'm not deadlifting currently because it became something that would flare up as soon as I go "heavy" again but I'm not blaming the exercise.
These things have proven to be effective if done with good form and a slow ramp up.
OP found an issue that would have otherwise not shown up and that's bad luck and crappy. But it could have shown up shoveling snow or from a weird fall doing basketball.
I thought the demonetization of the barbell was something of the past (partly thanks to Crossfit). Pay someone to train you, take it slow, chances are you will be fine and healthier for it.
FullMetalx117
Member
I believe I have some chronic wrist pain that was caused by lifting improperly. I even think I have a torn labrum/rotator cuff (had it for 5-6 years) that caused my body to grow unevenly. Form really is everything
Gotdatmoney
Member
I'm also an engineer. It doesn't mean anything here nor is it an appeal to kin or body science expertise. The fact is that this post here:
Is reality. Beginners loading weight doing squats and deadlifts is irresponsible. You need to build your strength up considerably before you attempt these types of lifts. Many of the compound lifts are called intermediate to experienced level exercises for a reason.
I'm not tossing aside your post because I think it is important people do some real research about this stuff. But that said, you have to also assune some responsibility here. The number 1 advice you see given is start slow. Weighted squats, deadlifts and 3500 cal & 200g of protein a day is not responsible no matter how you slice it.
Can anyone recommend a good bodyweight core exercise regimen? I've been wanting to strengthen my core and hopefully alleviate back pain I've been having for the last few years, but I've been afraid to do squats or deadlifts starting out and possibly end up like the OP.
Edit: I also have resistance bands, and I'd probably be willing to shell out for some lighter dumbbells.
Edit: I also have resistance bands, and I'd probably be willing to shell out for some lighter dumbbells.
Randolph Freelander
Member
No way. A novice lifter can get under an empty bar for the squat. I wouldn't have someone under a loaded bar, nor would I have someone stand over 135 lbs for deadlift (the bar with 2 plates, getting the bar to the conventional deadlift height), but being under an empty bar, you can do that assuming you are otherwise healthy and have no physical impairments that would prevent you from doing it.
But before you even get under the bar, practice the movement, learn the cues. Get down below parallel, see how that feels. Practice hinging at the hips, practice simultaneously bending at the knees so that your hips and knees are breaking at the same time. Practice coming up out of the squat similarly driving your hips up while maintaining your back angle until you reach the point where you straighten out at the top. Focus on breathing, taking a deep breath and bracing your core for the duration of the movement .Those sort of things.
But once you have that practice, get under a bar.
entremet
Member
This is what I feared with this thread. A personal experience that is rather unfortunate used as a prescription to avoid squats and deadlifts overall.
However, if you want to do bodyweight only, this subreddit is great.
https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/
Thanks. It's more that it's obvious that I'm already behind the 8-ball if I'm getting back pain just by existing, so I figure there's a chance I have a higher chance of aggravating an existing problem than someone who's in-shape.
I also have scoliosis that was diagnosed as a kid, and the back pain tends to shoot down my left leg at its worst. I should've probably gone to an orthopedist before my health insurance was converted from PPO to HSA, lol.
It sounds like OP had some genetic predisposition to spinal injuries. It's very unfortunate that you got injured and I hope you can fully recover. I think the negative feedback you're getting is because what seems like a special case is being used as a warning to the general public that is not predisposed to injuries. This would be equal to saying because I had an allergic reaction to eating chicken that people should avoid eating chicken.
The reason this sounds like a special case is because the amount of weight that OP was using sounds very novice. 35-40 lb dumbbells in each hand for deadlifts isn't very much. This isn't coming from a condescending position, but beginner lifters can quickly go from deadlifting an empty barbell to weights heavier than what OP was using. I'm curious to know what your squat progression was like before you got injured. Sorry if you already included that information and I missed it.
The reason this sounds like a special case is because the amount of weight that OP was using sounds very novice. 35-40 lb dumbbells in each hand for deadlifts isn't very much. This isn't coming from a condescending position, but beginner lifters can quickly go from deadlifting an empty barbell to weights heavier than what OP was using. I'm curious to know what your squat progression was like before you got injured. Sorry if you already included that information and I missed it.
Damn that's scary. I do those exercises regularly, though not with a ton of weight, and make sure to keep good form. I've had a couple small aches now and then, but I just put the weight down, focus on technique and it goes away.
I don't eat enough to gain much weight (I'm naturally very thin) so I mostly just do it for fun/to keep active so I don't push myself very much.
I don't eat enough to gain much weight (I'm naturally very thin) so I mostly just do it for fun/to keep active so I don't push myself very much.
cromofo
Member
Apples and oranges.
It's not like "proper form" and "ego-lifting" is neuroscience. It's basically common sense in the gym world. Heavy weights fucking up your spine and joints is not some hidden knowledge you need 10 years of education for.
There's not much more anyone can say about this.
Tought luck for OP if he did everything right but still got injured. Some people are different. For example, I had minor scoliosis before I started lifting weights. It has pretty much disappeared now as evidenced by my doctor.
CornBurrito
Member
My lousy doctor tried to tell me vaccines wouldnt give my daughter autism. But my fitness sisters over at GOOP.com told me otherwise.
CornBurrito
Member
Can you list any colossal health downsides to doing bodyweight fitness?
Otherwise why the fear?
cromofo
Member
Weak comparison. You can do better.
This thread is about how dangerous high weight/barbell exercises are. The OP notes that he has a professional personal trainer. He has read Starting Strength. He is taking it very seriously. His doctors assured him these exercises weren't recommended because they were inherently bad on the spine rather then that they were done incorrectly. I think comparing high-level usage of the activities in question is perfectly fine.
If the issues here are caused by a "beginner error", then the OP's overall point is invalid.