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[Bumblebeetuna]

They won’t see growth outside of consoles until they come out with their streaming stick and an app that works on all smart TVs. AFAIK the app still only works on a handful of Samsung TVs. And they won’t see big growth to more console gamers until they start pumping out more big titles. We are halfway through 2023 and the only big title has been Redfall and it was DOA. There have been great games like HiFi and AoE but those aren’t the types of games that drive the masses to GamePass. Imagine if Netflix went a year and their only new content was some shitty Adam Sandler movie (Redfall) and a handful of great documentaries. They wouldn’t see many new subscribers.

I’m a GP subscriber for the wealth of great titles that aren’t focus group tested AAA releases. So I’m good either way, I’ve been feasting since the service started. I also sub to the highest tier Plus service. But if either company puts out a great game I want to play I’ll plop down my $70 to own it.

Gotta say though, Plus has been pretty lacking. All I use the highest tier to do is stream Deception IV. I can probably just buy a PS4 copy used somewhere. Im dropping to the basic tier once my sub expires.

 

[Pelta88]

You would think xbox total revenue was down massively

You should see what Microsoft submitted to regulators about the actual state of XBOX in terms of "Profit." And the actual state of the XBOX as Microsoft's gaming division.

Those numbers might shock you.

 

[Kataploom]

What great games did you play on subscription this year that’s even on par with RE4 remake, hogwarts, star wars jedi, zelda or diablo?

Persona 5 Royal, I also greatly enjoyed Ghostwire Tokyo and a Plague Tale Requiem.

Don't push that argument, everyone play games differently.

BTW, Microsoft need to make Xbox brand more popular, seems like they just care about services but don't give love to the gaming brand itself which would help give game pass a steady growth.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Persona 5 Royal, I also greatly enjoyed Ghostwire Tokyo and a Plague Tale Requiem.

Don't push that argument, everyone play games differently.

BTW, Microsoft need to make Xbox brand more popular, seems like they just care about services but don't give love to the having brand itself which would help give game pass a steady growth.

Have you not been following MS as a company the past 15+ years?

 

[Kataploom]

Have you not been following MS as a company the past 15+ years?

I do, I work on IT and can say I'm a fan of their current stuff except for Xbox. I said what I said because I know all they care these days is pushing services, it's been their main expertise and source of revenue for a while... I love game pass but they can't pretend to make it grow far beyond if they don't work on Xbox as a brand, and games is what makes a gaming brand attractive.

 

[mckmas8808]

Every company should double down on just making great games

Subs, GaaS, MTX…all a distraction from what matters

It's SOOOOO weird to me that million dollar execs can't understand this clear and easy point that a random person on GAF just said. Luckily Nintendo out of every company seems to get it the most.

 

[Interfectum]

It's SOOOOO weird to me that million dollar execs can't understand this clear and easy point that a random person on GAF just said. Luckily Nintendo out of every company seems to get it the most.

Microsoft isn't interested in console money. It's why they've treated Xbox like a garage band for so many years. The only reason why Xbox is funded so well now is the promise of reaching people beyond a console. MS wants a billion people subscribed to Game Pass and Phil promised them that. It's not going to happen but Phil has delivered enough hopium to the top that we'll just have to see it crash and burn in real time.

 

[BootsLoader]

Poor Sony, they just started investing in GAAS games and other services.

 

[mckmas8808]

They won’t see growth outside of consoles until they come out with their streaming stick and an app that works on all smart TVs. AFAIK the app still only works on a handful of Samsung TVs. And they won’t see big growth to more console gamers until they start pumping out more big titles. We are halfway through 2023 and the only big title has been Redfall and it was DOA. There have been great games like HiFi and AoE but those aren’t the types of games that drive the masses to GamePass. Imagine if Netflix went a year and their only new content was some shitty Adam Sandler movie (Redfall) and a handful of great documentaries. They wouldn’t see many new subscribers.

I’m a GP subscriber for the wealth of great titles that aren’t focus group tested AAA releases. So I’m good either way, I’ve been feasting since the service started. I also sub to the highest tier Plus service. But if either company puts out a great game I want to play I’ll plop down my $70 to own it.

Gotta say though, Plus has been pretty lacking. All I use the highest tier to do is stream Deception IV. I can probably just buy a PS4 copy used somewhere. Im dropping to the basic tier once my sub expires.

Do that many people actually want the bolded? I think people are over estimating how many people want something like Game Pass.

 

[mckmas8808]

Poor Sony, they just started investing in GAAS games and other services.

Reason number 85 why I hate Jim Ryan so much. Why they are making 12 GAAS games is beyond my understanding. Why isn't 5-7 not good enough?

 

[BootsLoader]

Reason number 85 why I hate Jim Ryan so much. Why they are making 12 GAAS games is beyond my understanding. Why isn't 5-7 not good enough?

Looks like they went with the trends and lost their focus. Hope Jim prove us wrong in the end.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Reason number 85 why I hate Jim Ryan so much. Why they are making 12 GAAS games is beyond my understanding. Why isn't 5-7 not good enough?

Already down to 10.

MLB and Gran Turismo are apparently considered live service by Sony so there's that as well.

 

[Aenima]

Good. Im pretty happy with my PS+ Extra sub, but i dont want this kind of rental services to take over gaming. So glad to know ppl not holding back in buying games they really want to play.

 

[Tg89]

Good. Subscription services don’t get us great games.

 

[Kataploom]

Do that many people actually want the bolded? I think people are over estimating how many people want something like Game Pass.

Problem with that tech is that it's sold as the "cheap" option without needing to buy expensive hardware, but the places that actually matter the most for cheaper products are third world countries where moneys is very limited (that's why XSS is kinda popular in latinamerica, that $200 difference is a BIG deal here), but the network infrastructures aren't optimal at all for such a network demanding service in these countries.

Then you have a technology that's only useful on first world countries, where people aren't that cheap and will rather buy consoles or PC because games just run better without risks of lag harming the experience. If it's gonna change in the future, it's still gonna be mostly contained in those countries.

So cloud gaming execution has basically no appeal to the people that could actually benefit from it the most due to lack of proper infrastructure and the ones that can overcome those issues can already afford better alternatives.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Do that many people actually want the bolded? I think people are over estimating how many people want something like Game Pass.

Of course people want it. The ability to play AAA games without hardware will appeal to people. Not claiming it will be a Netflix type streaming juggernaut of course, but it will be big.

 

[mckmas8808]

Looks like they went with the trends and lost their focus. Hope Jim prove us wrong in the end.

Jim isn't a visionary at all. I don't think he has the ability to prove us wrong on GAAS.

Already down to 10.

MLB and Gran Turismo are apparently considered live service by Sony so there's that as well.

Oh that's good. I never understood how games that are obviously GAAS, weren't considered GAAS. MLB The Show and Gran Turismo are the perfect forms of good GAAS.

 

[legacy24]

this can't be right....
Phil said great games don't matter

 

[Interfectum]

Reason number 85 why I hate Jim Ryan so much. Why they are making 12 GAAS games is beyond my understanding. Why isn't 5-7 not good enough?

Most are sacrificial lambs. They are hoping 1-2 actually hit as hard as Destiny or Fortnite (lol) to make up for the cost of the others.

They should just stick with the normal formula... third parties provide the GaaS, first party provides the huge blockbuster games. Ryan is deviating from this.... good luck!

 

[mckmas8808]

Of course people want it. The ability to play AAA games without hardware will appeal to people. Not claiming it will be a Netflix type streaming juggernaut of course, but it will be big.

I think when people like yourself say this, it sounds good in a perfect world. But I don't think enough conversation is happening around the economics of the bolded. I love R reksveks analysis on most things business related in this industry, but even I think he's missing the forest for the trees when it comes to comparing a video game's sub service to the video and music variants.

Too many people in the media seem to be glossing over the fact that the video and music subscription service model are NOT working for the content creators. It's part of the reason as to why the Writer's Guild went on strike versus Hollywood. Music artist have been against the current music subscription model for a while. To the point that they came together to create Tidal. Which helps them more than Apple and Spotify but not enough.

Subscription services have a unique problem in that the platform holders aren't exactly paying the content creators what their worth is. It's a HUGE issue that many just refuse to speak about or just don't realize the issue at play.

 

[Interfectum]

Of course people want it. The ability to play AAA games without hardware will appeal to people. Not claiming it will be a Netflix type streaming juggernaut of course, but it will be big.

Eh... doubtful. A crucial hurdle for "Netflix-like" gaming is the necessity for a game controller, which already erases much of its supposed convenience.

It's incredibly effortless to access Netflix from anywhere, be it on my iPhone, iPad, TV, or even in a hotel room, as all I require are my account details and the Netflix application. On the other hand, gaming demands a specific controller, which may vary depending on the platform, not to mention a high-speed internet connection. After navigating through all these obstacles, the overall experience still falls drastically short of what a gaming console offers.

 

[mckmas8808]

Most are sacrificial lambs. They are hoping 1-2 actually hit as hard as Destiny or Fortnite (lol) to make up for the cost of the others.

They should just stick with the normal formula... third parties provide the GaaS, first party provides the huge blockbuster games. Ryan is deviating from this.... good luck!

This sounds like such a HORRIBLE plan that I'm shocked Jim Ryan was allowed to greenlight it. It seems like such a huge waste of money to chase after a hit like this. There's literally no business model that exist where this way of thinking should be allowed. And any exec that approves it should be fired!!!! Or at a minimum given a period of 3-4 years to prove its worth and if it doesn't work there should be an automatic trigger that's pulled to their firing. Content of any kind should be made with the thought in mind that it's actually good, interesting, fun, or engaging.

The idea that Sony is now greenlighting games FULL KNOWING that they are sacrificial lambs is embarrassing. Andrew House is rolling over in his grave right now at the level of incompetence.

 

[Elios83]

Piscartolla is being left in the thread title for the comedy factor?

Anyway the issues why subscriptions are slowing down are kinda obvious:
1)No big day one releases from almost all major publishers.
2)Games are not movies or TV series. It can take more than one month to finish a game, not to mention online titles that can hook people for months or long term. There's no point to pay monthly to have access to hundreds of games you won't play when you will only be able to play 1 or 2 games. Just buy the games you actually want to play.

 

[Lupin25]

There’s not enough time in a day, week, month, etc. to get the full value you’d actually want out of subscriptions.

There’s games like Pentiment or Hi-Fi Rush on gamepass, but no day one blockbusters like
TOTK, RE4R, Stars Wars Jedi Survivor or Hogwarts Legacy.
You have to worry about finishing games before their being cycled out, and if you’re subbed for 1 or 2, you’re better off just buying them at some point and saving the money in the long run.

I’ll say subs have capped out if Starfield or rest of their upcoming catalogue do nothing to improve the user base but it’s true, Sony’s 47-49 (wherever it’s hovered around) mil. seems like the highest threshold.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I think when people like yourself say this, it sounds good in a perfect world. But I don't think enough conversation is happening around the economics of the bolded. I love R reksveks analysis on most things business related in this industry, but even I think he's missing the forest for the trees when it comes to comparing a video game's sub service to the video and music variants.

Too many people in the media seem to be glossing over the fact that the video and music subscription service model are NOT working for the content creators. It's part of the reason as to why the Writer's Guild went on strike versus Hollywood. Music artist have been against the current music subscription model for a while. To the point that they came together to create Tidal. Which helps them more than Apple and Spotify but not enough.

Subscription services have a unique problem in that the platform holders aren't exactly paying the content creators what their worth is. It's a HUGE issue that many just refuse to speak about or just don't realize the issue at play.

People getting paid the correct amount for their work is a valid concern regardless of the industry. But this isn’t something exclusive to video games, you even mentioned video and music. And yeah writers are on strike but this isn’t the first time it’s happened about streaming and won’t be the last.

Personally I don’t see any of this debate and stoppage over pay to be a negative. The industries all changed dramatically because of digital, it makes sense for there to be massive issues at times. But that’s progress. I prefer being able to listen to most of my music in my Apple Music app over going to a music store (which doesn’t even exist here anymore) and buying a physical disc. If it’s something more important to me, I’ll buy a disc or a record because they sound better than streaming. Same with movies. If it’s something I care about and see myself watching repeatedly, I’ll buy a disc. Otherwise, yes, give me a stream. The lawyers can work out how all of the pay works.

Video game services like GamePass are different in that everything is also available OUTSIDE of the service. It’s not like a Netflix where a movie or series is there and isn’t available any other way. It’s also different in that MS isn’t trying to make the subscription or streaming their main business model. It’s treated as a small slice and will remain as such.

Which is why it’s nonsense when people make it out that games will suffer in quality or design because of the service. MS still plans on selling all of these games for retail price, they aren’t “designed for a subscription”.

But getting back to the point of streaming and big games, they’re both coming.

 

[mckmas8808]

People getting paid the correct amount for their work is a valid concern regardless of the industry. But this isn’t something exclusive to video games, you even mentioned video and music. And yeah writers are on strike but this isn’t the first time it’s happened about streaming and won’t be the last.

Personally I don’t see any of this debate and stoppage over pay to be a negative. The industries all changed dramatically because of digital, it makes sense for there to be massive issues at times. But that’s progress. I prefer being able to listen to most of my music in my Apple Music app over going to a music store (which doesn’t even exist here anymore) and buying a physical disc. If it’s something more important to me, I’ll buy a disc or a record because they sound better than streaming. Same with movies. If it’s something I care about and see myself watching repeatedly, I’ll buy a disc. Otherwise, yes, give me a stream. The lawyers can work out how all of the pay works.

Video game services like GamePass are different in that everything is also available OUTSIDE of the service. It’s not like a Netflix where a movie or series is there and isn’t available any other way. It’s also different in that MS isn’t trying to make the subscription or streaming their main business model. It’s treated as a small slice and will remain as such.

Which is why it’s nonsense when people make it out that games will suffer in quality or design because of the service. MS still plans on selling all of these games for retail price, they aren’t “designed for a subscription”.

But getting back to the point of streaming and big games, they’re both coming.

Are you sure the bolded is true? Can you say with 100% confidence that one day, that's not MS' plan if they had it their way? I'm of the belief that if MS could make a game GamePass exclusive 5 years from now, they would. I mean......why wouldn't they "IF" it meant they could increase GP subscribers to 100 million some day.

They already told us that the amount a console or a game sells doesn't matter. That it's all about engagement. Well.........what better way to increase engagement than to make it so you can only access it through GP? In the long-term I can see MS making a game a limited GP exclusive. Meaning that they'll sell you the game after 3 months, but if you want to play it first, you'll need GP.

 

[IntentionalPun]

It's almost like the model doesn't really fit how most people consume video games.

 

[Interfectum]

It's almost like the model doesn't really fit how most people consume video games.

No doubt. People absolutely do not consume games like TV or movies. The entire idea of "Netflix for gaming" is flawed from the jump.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

Subscriptions services stalling​

 

[saintjules]

Finally, someone other than Christopher Dring.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Ah yes the mystical group of people who want to play console games but not buy a console to do it with.

Those casuals are already well served with mobile games.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

No doubt. People absolutely do not consume games like TV or movies. The entire idea of "Netflix for gaming" is flawed from the jump.

Well I said it from the start but people liked the idea of that without thinking about the practicalities of it i.e games are totally different type of entertainment compared to shows and how you consume them is totally different.

This means there is quite a small group of people in the total market that game streaming appeals to.

 

[Clear]

The concerning thing is that MS seem to have bet the farm on this approach in the sense that every first-party title from their expanding roster of studios is all looking to generate revenue from the same subscriber base.

As I've said before, I'm not sure how sustainable this can be without regularly increasing subscription costs.

 

[semiconscious]

the problem with a service: once you've worked your way through the primary menu (maybe a year+), there's little motivation to do anything more than to drop it, & then only ever sign back on for major new titles...

the problem with a blockbuster game: it now take forever to make, & even then may still bomb...

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

"bUt siNgL€ pL4y€r g4m€s R d€4d 0Ld m4n"

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Are you sure the bolded is true? Can you say with 100% confidence that one day, that's not MS' plan if they had it their way? I'm of the belief that if MS could make a game GamePass exclusive 5 years from now, they would. I mean......why wouldn't they "IF" it meant they could increase GP subscribers to 100 million some day.

They already told us that the amount a console or a game sells doesn't matter. That it's all about engagement. Well.........what better way to increase engagement than to make it so you can only access it through GP? In the long-term I can see MS making a game a limited GP exclusive. Meaning that they'll sell you the game after 3 months, but if you want to play it first, you'll need GP.

Why would anyone say they can say anything will or won't happen with 100% confidence or certainty?

Yes people have all sorts of zany ideas or theories about what GamePass can lead to. I'll add three month timed exclusive access to the list.

All I can go on is what they have said and what makes sense.

 

[tr1p1ex]

​

Piscartolla blocked me on twitter. lol. a few months went by and I was like what happened to the NPD guy on my feed. I guess besides baseball, he enjoys the power of the secret block. lol.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

brother, both are the same service. Only difference is day1. They lead to the same outcome.

That's like saying me and you are the same person, the only difference is we're different people...

Day 1 is a huge difference.

That's like saying

Streaming Services A and B are the same.

Streaming Service A and B cost the same, but Service A gets theatrical releases while they're in the theater and Service B doesn't.

But they're the same thing.

 

[feynoob]

That's like saying me and you are the same person, the only difference is we're different people...

Day 1 is a huge difference.

That's like saying

Streaming Services A and B are the same.

Streaming Service A and B cost the same, but Service A gets theatrical releases while they're in the theater and Service B doesn't.

But they're the same thing.

Its a huge, if you get those big boys. Those are not coming day1 to gamepass. Cyberpunk2077, far cry 6 and valhala have yet to drop on gamepass, while ps+ managed to get valhala before it.

The point is, you need big AAA to change people's mind. Otherwise, you wont make them wait for your service.

I would have agreed with you, if gamepass had those games 6month to 1 year after release.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Its a huge, if you get those big boys. Those are not coming day1 to gamepass. Cyberpunk2077, far cry 6 and valhala have yet to drop on gamepass, while ps+ managed to get valhala before it.

The point is, you need big AAA to change people's mind. Otherwise, you wont make them wait for your service.

I would have agreed with you, if gamepass had those games 6month to 1 year after release.

Except the difference is GamePass is like HBO Max when WB was doing movies in theaters and streaming at the same time during the pandemic. It's not as if they had Disney or Paramount or Universal or Sony movies, they only had their own.

That's what Microsoft generally has and why they bought Bethesda and why they're trying to buy ABK and will continue to buy. They don't have enough first party content and they can't get enough 3rd party content.

 

[feynoob]

Except the difference is GamePass is like HBO Max when WB was doing movies in theaters and streaming at the same time during the pandemic. It's not as if they had Disney or Paramount or Universal or Sony movies, they only had their own.

That's what Microsoft generally has and why they bought Bethesda and why they're trying to buy ABK and will continue to buy. They don't have enough first party content and they can't get enough 3rd party content.

If content is an issue, they can simply buy tons of small devs like insomniac, ninja theory and obsidian. Those are cheap and have a high quality output.

 

[Nydius]

If content is an issue, they can simply buy tons of small devs like insomniac, ninja theory and obsidian. Those are cheap and have a high quality output.

Surely you must be trolling at this point...

 

[feynoob]

Surely you must be trolling at this point...

I don't know any nice ways to tell him that.

 

[Pedro Motta]

Starfield will be enough, it'll sell consoles and subs.

And Pringles cans.

 

[feynoob]

And Pringles cans.

Also that MS macdonald ad too.

Monster drinks would have worked out too.

 

[Nydius]

I don't know any nice ways to tell him that.

Fair enough. I was just making sure for my own sanity.

It's been a day.

 

[Pedro Motta]

Also that MS macdonald ad too.

Monster drinks would have worked out too.

If you are talking about Death Stranding, Monster used the game to sell more drinks. MS uses Pringles to sell more Gamepass. Different mindset.

 

[feynoob]

If you are talking about Death Stranding, Monster used the game to sell more drinks. MS uses Pringles to sell more Gamepass. Different mindset.

I messed up the drink part.
It was mnt dew.

 

[feynoob]

Fair enough. I was just making sure for my own sanity.

It's been a day.

I should have played fifa a lot. It was my day off from work. Instead decided to watch the summer showcase and now I don't feel like I want to play at all for the rest of the day.

 

[Crispy Gamer]

I thought Sony announced an increase at their last earnings?