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Magic: the Gathering |OT11| Amonkhet - Have you ever had decks with a Pharaoh?

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Ashodin

Member
Strongly disagree. That invited speculation/mystery/etc. as people tried to figure it out.

This leak has the set themes, mechanics, etc. all laid out w/ a bow. The curiosity factor is now dead.

Excuse me? The curiosity factor is only intensified. Now that I know of SOME things, I want to know more. I'm curious to know what the extent of the story is. I'm curious to know more about the factions. I'm curious to know more about the mechanics and how they work. I'm curious to know every single card name, flavor text, card text.

I could go on!
 

Bandini

Member
So how you guys liking Battle of the Planes? I've only had time to play one match so far, I made a crappy GW Humans Innistrad deck. Looking forward to trying out some other planes this weekend.
 
This is possible. It would potentially account for some of the seemingly weak names and a card that breaks the game.

The "exile until X" rules text already carries with it some rules baggage - if the "end" condition occurs before the beginning of the effect (i.e., while the trigger is on the stack), the effect doesn't happen at all. It's possible additional rules baggage will come up to say the same for if the "end" condition and the start of the effect happen at the same time (i.e., if you try to exile yourself, nothing happens because leaving the battlefield would end the effect, so you don't actually go anywhere).
 

kirblar

Member
Excuse me? The curiosity factor is only intensified. Now that I know of SOME things, I want to know more. I'm curious to know what the extent of the story is. I'm curious to know more about the factions. I'm curious to know more about the mechanics and how they work. I'm curious to know every single card name, flavor text, card text.

I could go on!
But it's all at the wrong time. When MaRo and Trick are saying these things - they're not kidding about it messing w/ marketing and sales. Now when those future cards are revealed, they're not going to "pop" for people in the same way they would have.

I'm all on board the "discussing these is fine" train - when the genie's out, it's out. But the idea that these are a net positive for "consumers" is ridiculous. If the game gets hurt, everything gets hurt. I have a lot of friends who work w/ local LGSes - it's not just WotC who makes less money, it's all the people in the chain who support the game and help maintain the local communities who get hurt by this as well.
 

Violet_0

Banned
it doesn't make much of a difference for me if I see the cards now, or shortly before the release in Fall. The earlier I get the info I want, the better, even if it wasn't intended. I honestly don't think this particular leak is going to harm them much, or at all, financially. The spoiler season is going to have a few less new cards, on the other hand people can already start doing some advanced speculation for Ixalan and keep the hype going. If anything, I can only see HoD suffering from this if some players decide to skip it in favor of Ixalan
 

El Topo

Member
What all the things I have listed have in common: the concept that private ownership of communications, information, and property shouldn't exist.

You are throwing unrelated things together so these events are related by the tiniest of threads and fit your narrative. Given the nature of the DNC hack, its enormity and its implications that is really not sensible. Furthermore you are taking the (concept of) ownership of information to a ludicrous extent with the MTG example. The Denuovo case is then thrown into the mix by you as an example where people disrespect a property, where they really just want a game for free (instead of the pretense outrage over DRM). All these have very different foci.

The problem with the Magic leak is not ownership of information. The problem is that people break (confidentiality) agreements, that they break contracts that they have agreed upon, that they destroy the foundation of trust that is necessary for a (business) relationship. That is an issue completely independent from whether or not it is advantageous for consumers to have information (early).
 

Yeef

Member
I don't know about that. Half the sets they release these days have known mechanics and themes because they already exist. I knew what I was getting out of BFZ and SOI the second they were announced. And we already knew there were pirates and dinosaurs from WOTC's mouth.
Well, we also know about treasure tokens and raid returning now.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Mutagenic Growth is stupid in a format where everybody isn't playing Mirrodin blocks. I just did it to someone and I'm guessing it felt out of nowhere to lose a combat to a tapped out dude.
 

kirblar

Member
You are throwing unrelated things together so these events are related by the tiniest of threads and fit your narrative. Given the nature of the DNC hack, its enormity and its implications that is really not sensible. Furthermore you are taking the (concept of) ownership of information to a ludicrous extent with the MTG example. The Denuovo case is then thrown into the mix by you as an example where people disrespect a property, where they really just want a game for free. All these have very different foci.

The problem with the Magic leak is not ownership of information. The problem is that people break (confidentiality) agreements, that they break contracts that they have agreed upon, that they destroy the foundation of trust that is necessary for a (business) relationship. That is an issue completely independent from whether or not it is advantageous for consumers to have information (early).
When that early information leads to lower sales, which affects not only WotC, their employees, etc., but also local game shops, who see less sales due to this, along with countless others along the chain, yes, I am going to be upset.

The concept that "consumers" are the only ones whose interests matter here is ridiculous when those local stores across the country are often running on very, very slim margins that can easily go south at a moments notice if something happens to screw w/ MTG. We've seen that recently with the issues with both Standard being absolutely terrible AND with packs in standard having their median value crash. When the format's not fun and the pack prizes are on average worthless, people don't want to play, which leads to less income for these local pillars that jeopardizes their existence.

So yes, I will get very angry at people leaking information this early (random leaks in/around spoiler season are completely normal and part of the hype cycle at this point) because it has very real and negative consequences for people. From a competitive perspective- a big part of initial sales/hype is due to people having not played with cards yet. Tarmogoyf was a bulk rare on release. Other cards have gone from $50 -> nothing. If people are playing with those cards for months upon months before the set's out, that's a big chunk of known info that will spoil sales.

The 3 are lumped together because all prioritize some mythical/hypothetical "public" benefit at the expense of a private organization.
 
Do we know what time the Hour of Devastation live stream is tomorrow? I was working under the assumption that it would be in the morning, but I realized they never actually said.
Finally, Friday we'll be turning our attention to Hour of Devastation, and you will be able to see preview cards on twitch.tv/magic. We'll have action coming from Las Vegas followed by more on DailyMTG Friday evening. So pay attention!

All of the announcements Monday through Friday will come at 8 a.m. on DailyMTG. Friday, watch for the Hour of Devastation party to kick off in the evening on twitch.tv/magic.
It's pretty ambiguous what's when.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
My opponent just played a Hada Spy Patrol. He must not like that I have Hex Parasite out.
 

El Topo

Member
When that early information leads to lower sales, which affects not only WotC, their employees, etc., but also local game shops, who see less sales due to this, along with countless others along the chain, yes, I am going to be upset.

The concept that "consumers" are the only ones whose interests matter here is ridiculous when those local stores across the country are often running on very, very slim margins that can easily go south at a moments notice if something happens to screw w/ MTG. We've seen that recently with the issues with both Standard being absolutely terrible AND with packs in standard having their median value crash. When the format's not fun and the pack prizes are on average worthless, people don't want to play, which leads to less income for these local pillars that jeopardizes their existence.

What is the model you are working with here and how sound is it? I mean, ignoring the moral implications of what you posted about the whole business, I'd just like to see the numerical side.

The 3 are lumped together because all prioritize some mythical/hypothetical "public" benefit at the expense of a private organization.

Nah. You threw both of them in there to make your case look better. It wasn't appropriate and you should know that.
 
It's true, you know. Comparing these leaks to the DNC hack is as disingenuous and wrong-headed as it would be to paint them as heroic by comparing them to Comey's leaked memos to the press.
 

aidan

Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
Hmm. I guess I'll just go ahead and make the new thread tonight to be safe.

Any more thoughts on the next title, everyone?

I still like Ashodin's suggestion for the last thread, and it would still work for the next one:

|OT12| No Bolas, I don't want to hear about your pyramid scheme
 

kirblar

Member
What is the model you are working with here and how sound is it? I mean, ignoring the moral implications of what you posted about the whole business, I'd just like to see the numerical side.
I don't have the revenue/costs statements for local LGSes handy to just hand over. They are frequently very low margin, require lots of foot traffic, and face strong competition from internet sellers (for singles/packs) and non-magic digital alternatives. They're run generally by people out of a love for games, not because they want to make a lot of money.

Prior to and around the announcement a year or so ago that Standard was ditching the 2x yearly rotation and that they were introducing Standard Showdown packs, multiple posters in here noted that they were seeing stores close. I'm not saying this leak is going to have that effect, but the margins for these stores are generally razor-thin and any number of things can easily push them over the edge and force them to close up.
Nah. You threw both of them in there to make your case look better. It wasn't appropriate and you should know that.
It's true, you know. Comparing these leaks to the DNC hack is as disingenuous and wrong-headed as it would be to paint them as heroic by comparing them to Comey's leaked memos to the press.
My point was in how they're defended. A hypothetical "greater public good" is presented as justification, where the effect of how they affect a private party is hand-waved. Yes, they're very different situations, but the same argument keeps being employed to defend them.

(And yes, Comey's memos exposing possible criminality are not at all the same, nor would you attempt that defense w/ them.)
 
Short of earth shattering leaks, they don't really effect anyone. At all. How can we know this? Because wizards used to have longer spoiler schedules and things were just fine. Getting a handful of cards from a set outside of release month doesn't hurt because we get those all the time, and it used to be sanctioned. Promos leak early, every time, and things are just fine. It's wizard's own fault for not adjusting their advertising schedule to fit their actual pipeline. If promos are out there for people to take pictures of and put online, why haven't they just been shown? This particular leak is obviously slightly larger, but isn't really much worse than several Gatecrash mythics getting out when that happened.

Like, to emphasize, Eternal Masters was known about by stores for months, MONTHS, before it was it was formally announced. We had a snaffu about 'people knowing more than other people' that was a result of wizards not just making semi-public information completely public.
 

kirblar

Member
Short of earth shattering leaks, they don't really effect anyone. At all. How can we know this? Because wizards used to have longer spoiler schedules and things were just fine. Getting a handful of cards from a set outside of release month doesn't hurt because we get those all the time, and it used to be sanctioned. Promos leak early, every time, and things are just fine. It's wizard's own fault for not adjusting their advertising schedule to fit their actual pipeline. If promos are out there for people to take pictures of and put online, why haven't they just been shown? This particular leak is obviously slightly larger, but isn't really much worse than several Gatecrash mythics getting out when that happened.

Like, to emphasize, Eternal Masters was known about by stores for months, MONTHS, before it was it was formally announced. We had a snaffu about 'people knowing more than other people' that was a result of wizards not just making semi-public information completely public.
Products' existence leaking is fine, actual set contents leaking en masse is not.
 
That works for Amonkhet, not really for Hour (imo)

I liked this one by El Topo:

Magic: the Gathering |OT12| No time for Duels.

Well, the set is about his actual plans being exposed, so maybe,
Bolas's pyramid scheme exposed!

I'd prefer to have the thread title refer to the actual set being discussed, since Magic Duels being discontinued is already old news.

EDIT: BTW, charlequin, update the Magic Duels thread title to note that updates are discontinued.
 
Products' existence leaking is fine, actual set contents leaking en masse is not.

I outlined in my post why this shouldn't be considered en masse, I don't think anyone here considers it en masse. Nobody here is putting this up there with OGW and NPH leaks. It's really not even close. This is duel decks preview card level leaks. This is like, en handful. Or something.

All we're doing is confirming that Charlequin can make sets correctly.
 

El Topo

Member
I don't have the revenue/costs statements for local LGSes handy to just hand over. They are frequently very low margin, require lots of foot traffic, and face strong competition from internet sellers (for singles/packs) and non-magic digital alternatives. They're run generally by people out of a love for games, not because they want to make a lot of money.

Prior to and around the announcement a year or so ago that Standard was ditching the 2x yearly rotation and that they were introducing Standard Showdown packs, multiple posters in here noted that they were seeing stores close.

It was a deliberately unfair question of mine. This is an incredibly complex data science/analysis problem. Even assuming one could get all the data it is not a given that one would get a sound analytical model.
That is precisely why some of the statements made angered me.

My point was in how they're defended. A hypothetical "greater public good" is presented as justification, where the effect of how they affect a private party is hand-waved. Yes, they're very different situations, but the same argument keeps being employed to defend them.

Look, I know you mean it well and you are clearly emotional about the issue, so just to be clear, my earlier "terrible and disgusting" post was hyperbole to mimic your post.
One of my problems is that you seem to think that I am defending this leak. I am not. We clearly disagree on the effect of the leak, but that doesn't mean I think it's okay to break a confidentiality agreement for such a matter. That said, neither do I agree with you on the enormity of the matter, which is why I found your other examples (DNC, Denuovo) quite outrageous.
 

Hero

Member
Kirblar is right, as usual. Huge blowout leaks this far in advance is bad for everyone. You can enjoy it all you want, but it's really shortsighted and extremely selfish. Cool, you know cards 4 months in advance that you're still not going to be able to purchase. What's the upside for you?

It's true, you know. Comparing these leaks to the DNC hack is as disingenuous and wrong-headed as it would be to paint them as heroic by comparing them to Comey's leaked memos to the press.

This, coming from the guy that two pages ago was saying this was a purposeful inside leak, is hilarious.
 
Kirblar is right, as usual. Huge blowout leaks this far in advance is bad for everyone. You can enjoy it all you want, but it's really shortsighted and extremely selfish. Cool, you know cards 4 months in advance that you're still not going to be able to purchase. What's the upside for you?
Ignoring simply knowing more than before, which isn't marginal, I now have months to pick up playsets of checklands on the cheap for standard.

There's also no downside. Heck if leaks end up tanking MTG into bankruptcy I wouldn't be bothered by them.
 
If we wanna go waaay back, an entire Invasion print sheet wound up online. That hurt nothing. Shit was so successful they changed their entire design paradigm.
 

El Topo

Member
If we wanna go waaay back, an entire Invasion print sheet wound up online. That hurt nothing. Shit was so successful they changed their entire design paradigm.

I don't think there is a reasonable model on the economic effects of a leak, but neither do I think singular sets are good examples for the opposite. I would also argue things were very different back then.
 
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