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Is there simply just less talent in the industry now?

Wildebeest

Member
Experience focus doesn't necessarily has to be like that, neither does mechanic games are free from it

Not really, many mechanic driven game could be done by very small team and still be successful, Stardew Valley was made by one person

This is a bit strawmaning to cherry pick one example out of an entire scene. Small studio could make all types of game
Experience is a hype term. What does it mean exactly other than the release of the game will be some sort of event that everyone will get carried away and transported by? It is about, in a way, saying that the consumers of the product will be somehow brought together and changed by the shared activity of buying and using the asset. It is a very vague and magical term.

Stardew Valley was made by one person, no doubt someone who had a lot of talent and education not shared by everyone, but it wasn't that innovative as it was an attempt to create the perfect Harvest Moon clone. But an effort that was not just superficial but based on lifelong interest in design elements of the series. So in a way it was a lifelong effort. Still, commercial success in this sort of thing is far from guaranteed. If that sounds like the easy option to you compared to AAA then I just disagree. I think that sound amazingly difficult while still not being too ambitious in terms of game mechanics.
 
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kuncol02

Banned
I think the issue is what Nintendo realized 20 years ago: pushing for more and more powerful hardware and graphics at the expense of gameplay is a suicide mission. Japanese developers figured out how to push art and gameplay instead of raw power and a lot of AAA western devs haven’t adjusted quite as well with the notable exceptions of Indies and most first party studios.
It's first party studios (especially Sony) and basically Rockstar and Ubisoft that are pushing for raw power (or rather raw work) over art and gameplay.
Like shrinking horse balls in RDR2 is not attention to detail. It's bunch of artists that spend week or more animating it instead of doing anything that actually matter in games (or not doing anything and finishing game cheaper or faster). Mission design of Rockstar games is obsolete since GTA3 and they don't do anything to fix it. And that problem exists for decades. How much resources were spend in making Killzone 2 look how it looked when in the end it was almost unplayable due to terrible input lag caused mostly by how it was rendered?
 

SeraphJan

Member
Still, commercial success in this sort of thing is far from guaranteed. If that sounds like the easy option to you compared to AAA then I just disagree. I think that sound amazingly difficult while still not being too ambitious in terms of game mechanics.
Nothing is guaranteed, Selective perception aside, if you look at most big budget games, there are more failure compare to those succeeded. The major triple A franchise that you still recognized are those that went through the filter. Stardew Valley is not the only example, there are many mechanic game that are successful but made by small team.
 
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SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
No, I’m not talking about dev team size, before somebody comes in here telling me about how 6 squillion people worked on the latest Ubisoft game.

I’m talking about genuine, high level talent. True creative visionaries with extreme passion and drive. Have these people been poached by other tech jobs or what? Because I’m trying to find an explanation for what is turning out to be the most disappointing console generation I have ever seen. Today’s showcase solidified that for me.

Everything is a reboot or remake, or a sequel. That’s if it’s not a shitty GAAS. Everything is seemingly stuck in development hell.

I hate to be that guy, but I also have to wonder if the extreme emphasis on diversity while hiring is having an effect? Is the industry pushing away talented people in the name of checking boxes? Just a question, not necessarily a conclusion.
No one wants to take chances with a $200 million budget. This is the same thing we see with Hollywood. The bigger the stakes, the more the people who hold the purse strings want to play it safe.

Lower budget releases, indies, AA, etc, can afford to take more chances. A company like Devolver can say "It's okay if half our games are unprofitable as long as the other half make up for it." But Ubisoft or Sony aren't going to do that, because they're operating at a different scale.
 
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BlackTron

Member
I'd disagree since so much of it is just more BOTW. If it were a totally new package I'd agree with you.
I have a secret, I never actually bought BOTW. Never finished it either. I've been saying it was the framework for a future better Zelda game since the beginning. BOTW took away a lot of TOTK's impact which is a shame, but it's still basically early access TOTK. I'm actually kind of glad they "finished" BOTW before moving on.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
And how do you explain the decline in quality in movies and TV shows? We used to get shows like The Wire and Breaking Bad and now we get Cleopatra :messenger_tears_of_joy:

People have been predicting that diversity hires will have severe negative effects and now we're witnessing the results.

WTF are you talking about? You're acting as if Succession, The Last of Us, Westworld, Ted Lasso, Severance, Atlanta, The Mandalorian, etc. The list literally goes on and on.
 

MagnesD3

Member
I have a secret, I never actually bought BOTW. Never finished it either. I've been saying it was the framework for a future better Zelda game since the beginning. BOTW took away a lot of TOTK's impact which is a shame, but it's still basically early access TOTK. I'm actually kind of glad they "finished" BOTW before moving on.
Yeah I agree, part of me wishes I had never played BOTW before playing TOTK because im maybe 40 hours deep and there are certain elements I'm beginning to be fatigued by that took me around the 60-70% mark of BOTW to start feeling and I think I'm like maybe a 4th or 5th of the way done with TOTK lol.
 
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64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
And they have the freedom, why are the results so shitty?
Maybe, just maybe... the results aren't shit, and they're just not your damn thing

One person can look at Plucky spire and see a generic, "QUIRKY" platformer. The other can see a unique, fun concept not tried before. Not everyone wants good graphics
 

Allandor

Member
There are enough talented people. Problem is the projects just get to big. You now need many more people working on the same game. It just was much easier in the past because things weren't that complex and had to look that realistic.
Also AAA games tend to need 5 to 7 years now. That isuch time withuch possible fluctuation in the teams.
 

MikeM

Member
Too much focus on loot boxes and GAAS, not enough on quality. Hell, games are releasing so broken now that you are paying the highest price to be a beta tester.
 

lukilladog

Member
I also think that companies are giving opportunities no newcomers and rookie programmers, but oh boy, they are poorly trained in general.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
There are simply much more whining gamers who pretend to know more than developers
/thread
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Paasei

Member
Don't think there's lack of talent. I think there's lack of space/time granted to developers to actually innovate and show something unique. If not this, then we'd simply seen all genre's and their sub-genre's. There aren't that many unique games around, and when they arrive, they tend to be out of the comfort zone of many.

The most important thing for me in games is to find creativity. I find that in what I can do with whatever the game gives me as options, controls, tools, moves or however you want to call them to overcome the problem that you need to solve. Can I combine many things to solve it uniquely, or is there only one option? That is true game design for me. Immersive sims is the #1 genre for me, but they are few and far between.

It's a risky thing to design something unique nowadays and overall the audience gets pickier by the day. "We want something different, but not really that different" is something you can apply to almost any game coming out right now.

So now it all seems to be about story and making that story as believable as possible with graphics and voice actors. I would be lying if I said I don't care about this, but I'm still honest when I say I'd rather play a game for it's gameplay design.
 
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Gamer79

Predicts the worst decade for Sony starting 2022
Game development has become so expensive that companies do not want to take risk. They just copy whatever trend is going.
 
Simply: yes. It's obvious that corporations have become progressively more profit-obsessed and risk-averse since the switch to HD, and that management is more and more empowered to overrule game directors. The same thing is happening in Hollywood too, obviously. It's part of the overall crisis of late capitalism.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
No, I’m not talking about dev team size, before somebody comes in here telling me about how 6 squillion people worked on the latest Ubisoft game.

I’m talking about genuine, high level talent. True creative visionaries with extreme passion and drive. Have these people been poached by other tech jobs or what? Because I’m trying to find an explanation for what is turning out to be the most disappointing console generation I have ever seen. Today’s showcase solidified that for me.

Everything is a reboot or remake, or a sequel. That’s if it’s not a shitty GAAS. Everything is seemingly stuck in development hell.

I hate to be that guy, but I also have to wonder if the extreme emphasis on diversity while hiring is having an effect? Is the industry pushing away talented people in the name of checking boxes? Just a question, not necessarily a conclusion.
I would reason that necessity has largely been removed from the world to recreate the talents of Cerny, Carmack, Sweeney, etc and all the largely unknown Ice Team level devs in abundance anymore.

Just look at the super talented Sean Murray of Hello Games, he was in two minds to be an astronaut, and his foundation knowledge will comes from that high bar education IMO.

The educational abstractness of analogue to digital electronics circuit design is a by-product of microchips getting smaller and smaller, and this has then lead to H/W accelerators abstracting the highly complex maths for things like 3D geometry rendering that previously required the devs to know and implement in software to run on a CPU, and all before tools like Autocad and Studio max or 3D blender were around.

Devs had to make their own tools from scratch for many things. Want to use a jpg from a camera in your own game engine, you might need to write your own reader and raw converter and mip map generator, which might require you to understand Fourier analysis - or be able to understand the gist of it quickly - just to understand the JPEG spec to implement a reader.

At the point that every University in most countries were offering course to learn specific skills for careers in gaming the necessity to be a knowledgeable and multi skilled and talented as the previous generations was well eroded by then.

People with Sean Murray level skills get to start their own studios to build their game the way they like, and as gamers we still get hyped for that. Not seeing a lot of others doing what he has done certainly suggests these level talents and better are in short supply and paid so well at the Epics, Unity, Sony, Microsoft, Activisions, Ubisoft, EA, Rockstar, etc that they don't do their own thing because the massive pay and job security is the better option for them, despite their visionary skills being under utilised and the games they work on being prescribed by managers looking at meta data.

So, yes I would say there is less talent today because the pre-requisite skills for game development have largely become more specific, and educationally less advanced, leading to less classic dev talent, and people with those advanced educational skills are likely being given amazingly paid jobs in other industries too, reducing the talent pool further.
 
Simply: yes. It's obvious that corporations have become progressively more profit-obsessed and risk-averse since the switch to HD, and that management is more and more empowered to overrule game directors. The same thing is happening in Hollywood too, obviously. It's part of the overall crisis of late capitalism.
Came here to basically say the same thing. Corporations aren't happy making some profit; they have to make all the profit. Therefore, they chase whatever trends are out there making the most money and focus test everything to Hell and back until it's all the same homogenized shit that won't offend anyone or require anyone to use their brain.
 
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ANDS

King of Gaslighting
I've said it before, if I only ever played AAA games and thought gaming began and ended there, I'd be in a forever tailspin of disappointment.
 
Why make it about Xbox? We're you not around 2 weeks ago when the Redfall disaster hit? So many people were furious with Phil Spencer and a similar rebound effect occurred a couple days later when a bunch of clowns took it upon themselves to defend that brand.

This happens every time there's a major disappointment. Instead of Gaffers being unified in anger rightfully directed at these companies, you see the same phenomenon occur where insecure boots lacking fanboys feel the need to desperately defend and damage control.

Spiderman 2 looks no better than ficking Miles Morales, a cross gen game that came out 2.5 years ago. What is there to defend? If anyone cares about graphics you should be pissed off.

Fanboyism is pathetic no matter which company. Why though do we have to pretend that there is some bias one on here? No. A mature person does not have unfair bias against a billion dollar corporation or a fucking electronic device. We should just ignore the fanboys but please stop with this persecution complex nonsense.

It sucks to be an Xbox or PS5 owner right now. Period!
 

Rayderism

Member
I figure there is a LOT of talent out there, it's just that they are contracted to make a game, as opposed to making the games THEY actually want to make. So the "talent" can't shine as bright as they possibly could.
 

JackSparr0w

Banned
You sound like a 14 year old edgelord…
The complete opposite. My generation had no participation trophies or diversity and equality hires.

We expect people to be hired on merit and produce work that justifies their salaries. These people that were put in charge not only produce garbage but also fail upwards by getting promoted.
 

NikuNashi

Member
It isn't about the talent when the bosses in charge are more dedicated to finding the next Fortnite rather than building the next God of War/Gears of War etc

If you put Michael Jordan on a shitty team with a shitty plan you're more than likely going to get a shitty result.
Michael Jordan was on a shitty team, The Bulls, but do you know what he did, turned them into one of the greatest basketball teams ever.

Netflix is overflowing with human excrement in entertainment form but 'The Last Dance' was pure awesome.
 

ungalo

Member
Perhaps at the very base there is less talented people, i don't know.

What i do know is that you don't need to have people as talented, in the creative sense, at the top to make GAAS. And that most publishers don't want to make complicated and creative games anymore.

And also, when you make such big projects, with higher stakes, you want people in the highest positions to have first and foremost one quality : being obedient. And geniuses most likely have a strong personality i think, they are probably not desired in this industry.
 
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NikuNashi

Member
Japanese devs are saving gaming at the moment :messenger_mr_smith_who_are_you_going_to_call: I know, oof indeed

A few things to note about Japanese dev teams

  • Largely homogenous teams
  • Very little HR interference
  • Devs work 10-12 hours per day
  • Devs are very submissive.
  • Devs are happy to follow a unified vision of director.
  • Hiring is based on experience
  • Staff do not leave companies, largely job for life
  • Staff want to integrate rather than stand out.
How does this compare to western teams?
 

Barakov

Gold Member
No, I’m not talking about dev team size, before somebody comes in here telling me about how 6 squillion people worked on the latest Ubisoft game.

I’m talking about genuine, high level talent. True creative visionaries with extreme passion and drive. Have these people been poached by other tech jobs or what? Because I’m trying to find an explanation for what is turning out to be the most disappointing console generation I have ever seen. Today’s showcase solidified that for me.

Everything is a reboot or remake, or a sequel. That’s if it’s not a shitty GAAS. Everything is seemingly stuck in development hell.

I hate to be that guy, but I also have to wonder if the extreme emphasis on diversity while hiring is having an effect? Is the industry pushing away talented people in the name of checking boxes? Just a question, not necessarily a conclusion.
For devs in major western AAA studios, I'd have to say...yeah. Some games coming out broken/buggy is definitely a sign of this. When you worried about quotas and checking boxes, the product you're making is going to suffer.

Thankfully, people seem to be waking up to this given how the backlash from that Bud Light ad. Totally different product but it seems quite a bit of people aren't that keen on the diversity angle.
 
Michael Jordan was on a shitty team, The Bulls, but do you know what he did, turned them into one of the greatest basketball teams ever.

Netflix is overflowing with human excrement in entertainment form but 'The Last Dance' was pure awesome.
lol Michael Jordan was not on a shitty team. Multiple all stars on the roster, greatest rebounder n the history of the game, Kerr got rings after the bulls, scotty pippens one of the top 100 players of all time etc.

You don't know shit about basketball if you think Jordan's bulls were shitty. Stay in your lane 😂
 

Gambit2483

Member
Michael Jordan was on a shitty team, The Bulls, but do you know what he did, turned them into one of the greatest basketball teams ever.

Netflix is overflowing with human excrement in entertainment form but 'The Last Dance' was pure awesome.
The Bulls in the early-mid 90s had one of the best rosters of All-time...AND with Phil Jackson?

mc-dowels.gif

Lay off the drugs son.
 
Large swaths of talent who got into game development out of simple love for games have either retired due to age or been run out and/or replaced by Woke zombies that see gaming (like all media) as a vector for political propaganda first and "fun" a very, very distant second.

An entire generation of people don't do anything for anything more than to stroke their own egos and push their politics, everyone else doesn't factor into it, they don't care if you like it or buy it, in fact they find it funny when you're angry, they get off on spite.

This is no longer the age of "I want to make a game people enjoy playing!" this is the age of "I want to give a big middle finger to my political enemies"
 
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No, I’m not talking about dev team size, before somebody comes in here telling me about how 6 squillion people worked on the latest Ubisoft game.

I’m talking about genuine, high level talent. True creative visionaries with extreme passion and drive. Have these people been poached by other tech jobs or what? Because I’m trying to find an explanation for what is turning out to be the most disappointing console generation I have ever seen. Today’s showcase solidified that for me.

Everything is a reboot or remake, or a sequel. That’s if it’s not a shitty GAAS. Everything is seemingly stuck in development hell.

I hate to be that guy, but I also have to wonder if the extreme emphasis on diversity while hiring is having an effect? Is the industry pushing away talented people in the name of checking boxes? Just a question, not necessarily a conclusion.
no?
 

NikuNashi

Member
The Bulls in the early-mid 90s had one of the best rosters of All-time...AND with Phil Jackson?

mc-dowels.gif

Lay off the drugs son.
Bulls won nothing before Jordan joined, of course they won early - mid 90s, when Jordan raised the quality of the team. Jordan was there before Phil Jackson you dumb fuck
 

NikuNashi

Member
lol Michael Jordan was not on a shitty team. Multiple all stars on the roster, greatest rebounder n the history of the game, Kerr got rings after the bulls, scotty pippens one of the top 100 players of all time etc.

You don't know shit about basketball if you think Jordan's bulls were shitty. Stay in your lane 😂
Another dumb fuck, were the bulls good when Jordan joined? No, educate yourself.
 

NikuNashi

Member

From 1975-1984 (the year Jordan was drafted), the Bulls only made the playoffs twice and only advanced to the second round once. They had no title in their franchise's history before Jordan.​


Educate yourselves before embarrassing yourself, would u say reaching the playoff twice in 10 years is a good team?
 

Hugare

Member
The talent that made the great games growing up are moving on or about to retire.

We have diversity now and that’s all that matters.
Posts like these are so fucking tiresome

Games are much harder to make then before and require a much bigger staff.

John Carmacks or John Romeros wouldnt be able to make AAA games by themselves today.

50 people made Silent Hill 2. Any AAA game nowadays takes thousands of people to make.
 
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