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[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Here's an interesting presentation from Insomniac from back in early 2022:

Some interesting takeaways like a mid-sized games needing 1/3 the budget and 1/2 the dev time of a AAA one.

Two mid-sized games have similar net sales to one AAA game, and with adding a third one in the picture they could even overtake the AAA title.

So what are you toughts on this GAF? Should Insomniac start refocusing on having more mid-sized AA games in their pipeline?

 

[Ar¢tos]

All the big Sony studios should have a team working on a non-GaaS mid size game all the time.
It would increase the amount of games they release per generation, it would increase income and since there is less financial risk the studio can experiment and increase the creative risk, it's the "different" games that increase the perception of the brand image.

 

[Hypereides]

Maybe this spells some hope for AAA winding their projects down to manageable AA pursuits in the future. At least the slides seem to indicate they realize huge budgets and long development cycles are not a favorable endeavor/direction.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I think more people should focus on mid sized games.

Give me a solid 15 hours of content all in for like 50 dollars and I bet we would see a lot more sales....if the games were good ofc

 

[Banjo64]

Here's an interesting presentation from Insomniac from back in early 2022:

Some interesting takeaways like a mid-sized games needing 1/3 the budget and 1/2 the dev time of a AAA one.

Two mid-sized games have similar net sales to one AAA game, and with adding a third one in the picture they could even overtake the AAA title.

So what are you toughts on this GAF? Should Insomniac start refocusing on having more mid-sized AA games in their pipeline?

They should share this with Sony’s other studios ASAP and actually do it.

 

[Hudo]

Should Insomniac start refocusing on having more mid-sized AA games in their pipeline?

Not their call.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

since there is less financial risk the studio can experiment and increase the creative risk, it's the "different" games that increase the perception of the brand image.

It used to be this way, but now the PS brand is strongly established and it’s obviously better for them to focus everything on the big games. Their AAA production is completely console exclusive, no need for smaller games to increase brand perception when you have fucking Spider-Man and some of the most acclaimed AAA IPs like God of War and TLOU. Brand perception can’t get better than that. See how much the brand perception of Xbox has been boosted by quality, “different” games like Hi-Fi Rush.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll take 2-3 mid-sized games over AAA Marvel tripe every day of the week. But no, the harsh truth is that PlayStation doesn’t really need them, and they know that very well.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Again, ridiculous dev budgets.

 

[lh032]

Mid size fun games .

Please .

Enough with horizon ballooning budget ubisift blueprint game

 

[Hudo]

Tokyo Jungle 2 could be a mid-size game.... just saying...

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Yeah, I think expandalones are the way forward - build a foundation - like SM1 and then release games like MM that are built on the foundation of the base game. Basically like 10-15 years ago with DLCs.
I do wonder why SM2 why many more expensive than SM1.

Again, ridiculous dev budgets.

Now imagine how it will grow when there will be more unionized workforce - will turn companies in Ubisoft level mess.

 

[mansoor1980]

mid sized resistance sequel please
or a remastered resistance collection

 

[Mibu no ookami]

One thing they aren't considering here with these mid-size games is an element of franchise fatigue.

After playing Spider-Man 1, MM, and Spider-Man 2... I'm FAR less likely to buy Venom and Spider-Man 3 on Day 1. Whereas maybe if more effort went into Spider-Man 2 and there was no MM, I'd still be a lock for Spider-Man 3.

I think they run the risk of really diluting these games, which is what happened with the Arkham games and the God of War games after God of War 3.

At this rate, Spider-Man 3 needs to be a significant departure to get me interested and I think that is a risk they won't take.

 

[ProtoByte]

You guys thinking the mid-sized games would be random new IPs or experimental weirdness haven't been paying attention.

They will be heavy asset-reuse spinoffs of established franchises that Sony can invest in knowing that they will be significantly beneficial to making and/or profitable. Particularly for the major US based studios where costs are high no matter what scale the project is. Ironically, this is just the sequelization of 2010s, only the sequels get smaller.

The logistics just don't make sense for anything else; something that those who will take this as a prompt to eulogize Japan Studios don't get.

 

[gokurho]

Here's an interesting presentation from Insomniac from back in early 2022:

Some interesting takeaways like a mid-sized games needing 1/3 the budget and 1/2 the dev time of a AAA one.

Two mid-sized games have similar net sales to one AAA game, and with adding a third one in the picture they could even overtake the AAA title.

So what are you toughts on this GAF? Should Insomniac start refocusing on having more mid-sized AA games in their pipeline?

Mid size game ($100m)

$100m is not AAA

 

[coffinbirth]

You guys thinking the mid-sized games would be random new IPs or experimental weirdness haven't been paying attention.

They will be heavy asset-reuse spinoffs of established franchises that Sony can invest in knowing that they will be significantly beneficial to making and/or profitable. Particularly for the major US based studios where costs are high no matter what scale the project is.

The logistics just don't make sense for anything else; something that those who will take this as a prompt to eulogize Japan Studios don't get.

The most painfully true thing I've read about this whole thing.

 

[Silver Wattle]

If they think every mid sized game will do MM numbers they are dreaming.

 

[PatientGamer]

We need more of this. If this leak has taught us anything it's that we really have no idea just how expensive video games are. Judging by the cost, I'm surprised we're not paying $100+ for the standard edition of an AAA game.

I'm definitely in favour of MORE mid-sized games at 8-14 hrs @ $40-$50, rather than mega AAA 70-hour masterpieces. There's not really much difference in terms of production quality anyway. It's just more content for the sake of more content.

Also, it's amazing to see Insomniac crank out so many games in such a short-time frame whilst maintaining top tier quality... whilst we having Naughty Dog doing.... god knows what....

Insomniac has almost single handedly carried the PS5 this generation.

 

[Kamina]

WTF are those numbers

 

[rhodesianshepard]

One thing they aren't considering here with these mid-size games is an element of franchise fatigue.

After playing Spider-Man 1, MM, and Spider-Man 2... I'm FAR less likely to buy Venom and Spider-Man 3 on Day 1. Whereas maybe if more effort went into Spider-Man 2 and there was no MM, I'd still be a lock for Spider-Man 3.

I think they run the risk of really diluting these games, which is what happened with the Arkham games and the God of War games after God of War 3.

At this rate, Spider-Man 3 needs to be a significant departure to get me interested and I think that is a risk they won't take.

I think you are in the minority here. SM2 wasn't a very big departure from SM1 and still sold incredibly well. And it will surely sell 20m+ by the end of this generation. I agree, with other IP's like Horizon, if they don't reinvent the wheel than sales will stagnate. That is why Sony Santa Monica and Naughty Dog are working on new IP, so when they do return to GOW or TLOU franchises, enough time has passed for gamers to be interested in a new iteration. But I don't ever see that with Spider-Man, it's just too big of an IP, not to do crazy sales

 

[elcapitano]

Stuff like this is why I think Naughty Dogs new IP should be a mid size game. Get it out in 2025 at the latest and if it's successful the sequel can be larger if they wish.

Then have Part 3 for 2027 with a cut back multiplayer mode using their work from the cancelled factions.

This way they can save their PS5 era of both games are good. And the addition of a multiplayer appeases Factions fans, increases sales slightly at least and ensures that all the work they did in the online game doesn't go to waste. Seems to me the best plan at this point.

If they are aiming for two full length titles I doubt they'll both make the PS5.

 

[elcapitano]

If they think every mid sized game will do MM numbers they are dreaming.

If it original IP it doesn't need to because they aren't paying royalties to anybody on it.

If it's something like Venom or other popular Marvel content it will do very well no matter what because that shit sells as long as the games are decent. The story doesn't even have to be great.

 

[rhodesianshepard]

Stuff like this is why I think Naughty Dogs new IP should be a mid size game. Get it out in 2025 at the least and if it's successful the sequel can be larger if they wish.

Then have Part 3 for 2027 with a cut back multiplayer mode using their work from the cancelled factions.

This way they can save their PS5 era of both games are good.

If they are aiming for two full length titles I doubt they'll both make the PS5.

Naughty Dog has multiple Teams. They have had one team work on new IP since 2020 and their second team started on TLOU3 earlier this year, after Factions was put on the backburner. They should still be able to release two full games this generation, with assumely their new IP releasing in 2026 and TLOU3 by 2028

 

[elcapitano]

Naughty Dog has multiple Teams. They have had one team work on new IP since 2020 and their second team started on TLOU3 earlier this year, after Factions was put on the backburner. They should still be able to release two full games this generation, with assumely their new IP releasing in 2026 and TLOU3 by 2028

Possibly but with these long dev times such a timeline could easily slip which wouldn't be a good look.

Obviously too late to change whatever they went with now in regards to their new IP but I wouldn't mind a shorter game especially if it meant a 2025 release.

 

[Ar¢tos]

It used to be this way, but now the PS brand is strongly established and it’s obviously better for them to focus everything on the big games. Their AAA production is completely console exclusive, no need for smaller games to increase brand perception when you have fucking Spider-Man and some of the most acclaimed AAA IPs like God of War and TLOU. Brand perception can’t get better than that. See how much the brand perception of Xbox has been boosted by quality, “different” games like Hi-Fi Rush.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll take 2-3 mid-sized games over AAA Marvel tripe every day of the week. But no, the harsh truth is that PlayStation doesn’t really need them, and they know that very well.

The only problem with Hi-Fi Rush is that it was "too little, too late", and none of its "goodness" can be credited to MS since it was mostly developed by the time they bought Bethesda.
Had MS started doing games like that 5+ years ago, things could be relatively different nowadays (in marketshare amount, Sony would probably still be on the top).

 

[Unknown Soldier]

All Nintendo titles would be regarded as "mid-size" games by the Insomniac definition and I can't think of a single AAA title this gen which I've had more fun with than Nintendo's various releases during the Switch's lifetime.

The problem is that only Nintendo has the kind of brand power and trust in quality to automatically get people to buy their titles sight unseen.

 

[mdkirby]

Shitcan all these GAAS failures they keep cancelling having wasted hundreds of millions, and accounting for 50% of all dev spend. Redirect those teams to making these mid sized single player games. Hey presto you triple the year games output of first party studios without even touching the existing AAA teams.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

They should share this with Sony’s other studios ASAP and actually do it.

As if Sony isn't aware of this to begin with.

 

[LazyParrot]

It's pretty clear that these mid-sized games are just gonna end up being small-scale spinoffs that heavily rely on existing assets and code created for their AAA releases.

 

[Ivan]

mid sized resistance sequel please
or a remastered resistance collection

Not a single word on Resistance in any of those leaks...what a sad reality.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Mid-sized means more games like Miles Morales (or the upcoming Venom) for Insomniac. Don't get your hopes up.

So they're basically thinking about releasing more spinoffs/standalone expansions etc. with a lot of the assets taken from the previous games. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but charging 50 dollars for such a product would be too much.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Three midsize games easily outweighs one giant blockbuster game imo.
Especially when they look as good as they do, and you’re getting new games more often.

A while back everyone was crowing about how incredible Insomniac was for pumping out games so quickly. Yeah, that’s because they were “mid size” releases.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think you are in the minority here. SM2 wasn't a very big departure from SM1 and still sold incredibly well. And it will surely sell 20m+ by the end of this generation. I agree, with other IP's like Horizon, if they don't reinvent the wheel than sales will stagnate. That is why Sony Santa Monica and Naughty Dog are working on new IP, so when they do return to GOW or TLOU franchises, enough time has passed for gamers to be interested in a new iteration. But I don't ever see that with Spider-Man, it's just too big of an IP, not to do crazy sales

It was no fluke that Spider-Man 2 took home no awards at the game awards. It's no fluke that not many publications have it as their GOTY.

It's a pretty uninspired game. Is it possible that people will look at Spider-Man games like CoD games and Madden? Sure..., but single-player experiences? I've really not seen sustained long term sales without some general innovation within a franchise.

I also think you can put out enough games that you begin to compete with yourself. No new players want to jump into Spider-Man 3 if you have to play Spider-Man 1 and 2, MM, and Venom.

That's the very ceiling God of War found itself in after God of War 3. Ascension sold really poorly and the PSP games didn't help the fatigue factors either. They wisely changed things up with 2018, it the game sold more than all previous entries.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

I think we should target exactly 2.2A in general, since AA is a little jank. But some mad lad studio should really try to ship 3.14A

 

[rhodesianshepard]

It was no fluke that Spider-Man 2 took home no awards at the game awards. It's no fluke that not many publications have it as their GOTY.

It's a pretty uninspired game. Is it possible that people will look at Spider-Man games like CoD games and Madden? Sure..., but single-player experiences? I've really not seen sustained long term sales without some general innovation within a franchise.

I also think you can put out enough games that you begin to compete with yourself. No new players want to jump into Spider-Man 3 if you have to play Spider-Man 1 and 2, MM, and Venom.

That's the very ceiling God of War found itself in after God of War 3. Ascension sold really poorly and the PSP games didn't help the fatigue factors either. They wisely changed things up with 2018, it the game sold more than all previous entries.

SM2 has a 90 metacritic rating for both critics and users alike. Pretty much everybody who played it universally really enjoyed the game. Lol, at using it not winning major game awards, when it it was nominated for GOTY, in what most gamers agree was one of the best game years of all time.

SM3 will put a nice wrinkle in the story at the very least with Miles Morales being the main protagonist. And based off the leaks, Miles Morales has sold over 14 million units, which is incredible for a lower budget spin-off game. And, it's not like Spider-Man games has heavy character development. You could easily jump into any of the sequels and not feel lost. Lets be honest, the Spider-Man franchise is built around having kids as young as 7 being able to enjoy it. It has mass appeal that only rivals Mario, Zelda, and Pokémon. And, you think SM3 could/will struggle with sales when most likely there will be 120million+ PS5 consumers by its release in 2028, not likely

 

[Wildebeest]

If they can guarantee that every game will be a hit, then they should make every game with a shoestring budget and new IP.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

SM2 has a 90 metacritic rating for both critics and users alike. Pretty much everybody who played it universally really enjoyed the game. Lol, at using it not winning major game awards, when it it was nominated for GOTY, in what most gamers agree was one of the best game years of all time.

SM3 will put a nice wrinkle in the story at the very least with Miles Morales being the main protagonist. And based off the leaks, Miles Morales has sold over 14 million units, which is incredible for a lower budget spin-off game. And, it's not like Spider-Man games has heavy character development. You could easily jump into any of the sequels and not feel lost. Lets be honest, the Spider-Man franchise is built around having kids as young as 7 being able to enjoy it. It has mass appeal that only rivals Mario, Zelda, and Pokémon. And, you think SM3 could/will struggle with sales when most likely there will be 120million+ PS5 consumers by its release in 2028, not likely

Love the straw man argument here.

I didn't say the game wasn't liked, I said it didn't win awards because it took no risks nor did it innovate. It was a paint by numbers sequel.

I didn't say SM3 would struggle with sales, I said that it would have a lower ceiling because of fatigue from a multitude of game releases.

The question isn't even whether SM3 would sell more than SM2, the question is would SM3 sell more if MM hadn't come out than if it did. Would SM3 have sold more without a Venom game releasing.

All those games you mentioned, none of them are releasing 3 of the same game in the same generation, and kept an upwards trajectory, even if the follow up was a better game.

 

[Fbh]

Haven't played it, but from everything I've seen I still don't get how Spiderman 2 cost more than twice as much to make as Spiderman 1.

You guys thinking the mid-sized games would be random new IPs or experimental weirdness haven't been paying attention.

They will be heavy asset-reuse spinoffs of established franchises that Sony can invest in knowing that they will be significantly beneficial to making and/or profitable. Particularly for the major US based studios where costs are high no matter what scale the project is. Ironically, this is just the sequelization of 2010s, only the sequels get smaller.

The logistics just don't make sense for anything else; something that those who will take this as a prompt to eulogize Japan Studios don't get.

True, though that's not necessarily bad.
Personally I liked Uncharted The Lost Legacy way more than Uncharted 4 even though it used heavily recycled assets and mechanics. The pacing was way nicer, it's more action heavy and the train sequence at the end was awesome

 

[nial]

Tokyo Jungle 2 could be a mid-size game.... just saying...

The developer (Crispy's) doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Shin-Ra]

Uncharted: Lost Legacy was more fulfilling than plenty of ‘full’ releases like Spider-Man 2, but expectation management is difficult with an existing IP people expect a huge game from.

 

[ungalo]

Playstation is going to do what Shawn Layden advised for years, make shorter games and stop the budget inflation. But i don't know if the public will react well. It's not like they're going to make smaller games so we will have plenty of new IPs again. They're talking more about things like Miles Morales project than anything else.

Also, i think it's going to make a loop. Some publishers will take this stance, but given the fierce competition they will be tempted to add more and more again and it will revert slowly to bigger games.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think more people should focus on mid sized games.

Give me a solid 15 hours of content all in for like 50 dollars and I bet we would see a lot more sales....if the games were good ofc

15 hour single player game is NOT a mid-sized game. Mid-sized games are less than 10 hours. Unless you are counting 100% completing the game and getting the Platinum trophy.

They should share this with Sony’s other studios ASAP and actually do it.

Well Insomniac is doing it. And Naughty Dog has already done it too. Are people not paying attention?

Not their call.

It is their call. They did it with Rift Apart and Miles Morales.

 

[Dane]

You guys thinking the mid-sized games would be random new IPs or experimental weirdness haven't been paying attention.

They will be heavy asset-reuse spinoffs of established franchises that Sony can invest in knowing that they will be significantly beneficial to making and/or profitable. Particularly for the major US based studios where costs are high no matter what scale the project is. Ironically, this is just the sequelization of 2010s, only the sequels get smaller.

The logistics just don't make sense for anything else; something that those who will take this as a prompt to eulogize Japan Studios don't get.

But this is what create better sequels, its not about being 100% experimental, but iterating on a good base, a lot of games that people love dearly such as Uncharted 2, Gears 2, MW2, Gta Vice City and RE2 98 were all improved iterations over their predecessors rather than being all made entirely from scratch and released within a shorter timeframe, that is the standard for the industry.

I don't even get when people started to go into a "hate train" over iterations, the only issue I had is that there had been sequels taking too long due to the pandemic.

 

[mckmas8808]

One thing they aren't considering here with these mid-size games is an element of franchise fatigue.

After playing Spider-Man 1, MM, and Spider-Man 2... I'm FAR less likely to buy Venom and Spider-Man 3 on Day 1. Whereas maybe if more effort went into Spider-Man 2 and there was no MM, I'd still be a lock for Spider-Man 3.

I think they run the risk of really diluting these games, which is what happened with the Arkham games and the God of War games after God of War 3.

At this rate, Spider-Man 3 needs to be a significant departure to get me interested and I think that is a risk they won't take.

If the big AAA games show why they are neccsary, Sony will have nothing to worry about. Keep the quality high and they'll be alright. Not sure how old you are, but this is how gaming used to be in the 90s and 00s. We used to get GTA games every 2-3 years. Nobody complained about IP or franchise fatigue. Everybody just needs to keep things feeling fresh.

If they think every mid sized game will do MM numbers they are dreaming.

They don't. They even admit that RC: Rift Apart will do waaaaaay less than MM. They know this.

As if Sony isn't aware of this to begin with.

They are so aware that they've been doing it for over 5 years already lol.

It's pretty clear that these mid-sized games are just gonna end up being small-scale spinoffs that heavily rely on existing assets and code created for their AAA releases.

Playstation is going to do what Shawn Layden advised for years, make shorter games and stop the budget inflation. But i don't know if the public will react well. It's not like they're going to make smaller games so we will have plenty of new IPs again. They're talking more about things like Miles Morales project than anything else.

Also, i think it's going to make a loop. Some publishers will take this stance, but given the fierce competition they will be tempted to add more and more again and it will revert slowly to bigger games.

They already started doing that years ago. The public has reacted greatly by showing they LOVE Sony's mid-size AAA game approach. What do you think Uncharted: Lost Legacy was?

 

[Portugeezer]

Would those hypothetical mid sized games cost $70? Of course.

 

[ungalo]

They already started doing that years ago. The public has reacted greatly by showing they LOVE Sony's mid-size AAA game approach. What do you think Uncharted: Lost Legacy was?

It wasn't on a large scale, a systemic thing.

I think it's the success of Miles Morales that really made them think about it as a process. Because according to what we've seen in the leaks, despite selling less units and being cheaper it was on par with Spiderman 2 when it comes to profit (even if Spiderman 2 will distance it eventially).

Lost Legacy didn't generate a lot of money, it wasn't a success especially after Uncharted 4 that made a lot of money.

 

[adamsapple]

Mid size game ($100m)

$100m is not AAA

For reference, Witcher 3's budget was $32 million. (with another 35 for marketing)

 

[Banjo64]

Well Insomniac is doing it. And Naughty Dog has already done it too. Are people not paying attention?

Insomniac are doing it with Marvel spin offs in between their main Marvel games. Not exciting.

ND have done what? Left Behind (DLC) in 2014 and Lost Legacy (great game) in 2017?

 

[Success]

Give me more AAA games.

People asking for AA are just a vocal minority.

 

[Hudo]

It is their call. They did it with Rift Apart and Miles Morales.

With Sony's blessing, obviously. They can't do shit without first running it by SIE management. Which is what I meant.