• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Incuvo Games CEO Discusses How PS VR2 Might Impact the VR Market



Incuvo Games CEO Andrzej Wychowaniec believes that VR will be at least as popular as console gaming in five to ten years, and a lot of that was encouraged by the PS VR with the PS4. Now, with PS VR2 (reportedly codenamed NGVR for “Next-Generation Virtual Reality”) on the way, we asked Wychowaniec what he expects and hopes to see out of it.

“Yeah, I'm waiting eagerly for the new PS VR2 to arrive. When it comes to the current gen of consoles, I'm a big fan of Sony's PS5 DualSense. I think of the features offered by this controller as a preview of the new quality we can expect from NGVR. New sensor features are shaping up to be very innovative. Sense controllers will be able to simulate the experience of deep immersion, which will be amplified by the headset feedback. A great promise lies though in features that support optimization and performance like eye tracking. These solutions will be crucial to the progress of VR gaming, as they will allow developers to invent entirely new kinds of experiences. Also, I have an opinion that the role of sound in the process of making VR games is extremely underappreciated. Sounds add a lot of immersion. The new Tempest 3D audio technology will allow gamers to be surrounded by realistic in-game sound. Sony claims that the audio dynamically adapts to the player's position and head movement, which is another area where there will be new possibilities to enhance the immersion for them.”



While Wychowaniec had a lot to say about the technical elements of the upcoming VR system, his response to what he hopes for most out of PS VR 2 was much simpler. He hopes, and believes, that PS VR2 can have as much of an impact on the industry as the first PS VR release. Specifically, he said,

“From 2016 to 2020, PS VR sold 5 million units globally (as of December 31st, 2019), which means that it made a big impact on the market. It was also a very comfortable solution, especially at the start. It brought a new quality to home VR gaming. I certainly hope that the new headset will repeat the success and will accelerate the market growth and bring new possibilities in terms of features, user experience, and a fresh dose of competitiveness which always stimulates technological innovation. It'll also be good for developers. New platforms mean new sources of income, as well as the opportunity to raise the quality standards. So basically better games. I believe that Sony will succeed again, and NGVR will bring millions of new VR enthusiasts to the community.”

 

Fredrik

Gold Member
Tame expectations.

What the VR market really need isn’t just another VR headset selling to a couple million people, the market needs big AAA studios to make big investments as if they plan to sell the games to 100+ million people.

It’s honestly annoying to see big studios make such little effort. AAA devs are waiting for the market to expand. Meanwhile the market won’t expand since gamers are waiting for AAA games to arrive.

How about showing people why they should invest in VR instead of waiting for the market to show that it’s time to invest in VR?
 

Baki

Member
PSVR2 is going to be DOA. Wired, requires a PS5 is going to be a tough sell in 2022 or 2023. Sony might be able to support the platform with some games in the early days, but much like the Vita, it’s going to be hard to continue getting developer support unless the platform can compete with the Quest. The Quest 2 has 90% market share and outsold the Xbox last year. It’s going to be hard to convince Developers to develop on the PSVR 2 when it’s likely that the platform won’t even sell 20% of what the Quest does in a year.
 

Imtjnotu

Member
PSVR2 is going to be DOA. Wired, requires a PS5 is going to be a tough sell in 2022 or 2023. Sony might be able to support the platform with some games in the early days, but much like the Vita, it’s going to be hard to continue getting developer support unless the platform can compete with the Quest. The Quest 2 has 90% market share and outsold the Xbox last year. It’s going to be hard to convince Developers to develop on the PSVR 2 when it’s likely that the platform won’t even sell 20% of what the Quest does in a year.
Yeah Right Judging You GIF
 

Baki

Member
PSVR2 has not been released but I expect it to sell at the same pace as the original PSVR. Even if the PSVR2 sells 2x as fast as the original (doubtful), you’re talking about a device that will take over a year to reach 2M install base while the Quest 2 will likely be within 25-30M units sold at that point. What developer would want to develop on the PSVR2 without significant financial subsidies from PlayStation. Even then, it wouldn’t make sense to develop for the PSVR2. This Walkman vs iPod all over again.

Feel free to refute as I’m open to dialogue here.
 
Last edited:

Fredrik

Gold Member
PSVR2 is going to be DOA. Wired, requires a PS5 is going to be a tough sell in 2022 or 2023. Sony might be able to support the platform with some games in the early days, but much like the Vita, it’s going to be hard to continue getting developer support unless the platform can compete with the Quest. The Quest 2 has 90% market share and outsold the Xbox last year. It’s going to be hard to convince Developers to develop on the PSVR 2 when it’s likely that the platform won’t even sell 20% of what the Quest does in a year.
Quest 2 has a serious problem though, AAA dev support just isn’t there, like at all. PSVR2 should get better support since it’s Sony first party but so far they haven’t convinced me it’ll be any better than PSVR1. As a fan of VR in general it’s frustrating to see devs on all platforms be so afraid to jump in properly.
 

kungfuian

Member
IMO it would help sell units if Sony could create some type of software development solutions so most PS5 games support VR out of the box. It should be much easier for developers to add VR to their games to the point it's as common place an option as frame rate and resolution options are becoming.

It would also be really amazing to see them breathe new life into their back catalog of games with VR compatibility. I'm basically thinking dolphin VR but for PlayStation games.
 

RJMacready73

Gold Member
PSVR2 has not been released but I expect it to sell at the same pace as the original PSVR. Even if the PSVR2 sells 2x as fast as the original (doubtful), you’re talking about a device that will take over a year to reach 2M install base while the Quest 2 will likely be within 25-30M units sold at that point. What developer would want to develop on the PSVR2 without significant financial subsidies from PlayStation. Even then, it wouldn’t make sense to develop for the PSVR2. This Walkman vs iPod all over again.

Feel free to refute as I’m open to dialogue here.

Yeah but Facebook doesn't have Sony's incredible Game Studios cranking out games, sure it'll not hit the Quest sold numbers and whilst wired I bet the experience will be a lot greater due to the tech
 
The original PSVR was like Sony trying to do something with both hands tied behind their backs, yet the end result was still pretty good.

PSVR2 is a big improvement in every way and they already are much more experienced with developing VR games. I just hope all PSVR games will work on PSVR2 without the need for devs to patch it.
 
Last edited:

Rivet

Gold Member
PSVR2 is going to be DOA. Wired, requires a PS5 is going to be a tough sell in 2022 or 2023. Sony might be able to support the platform with some games in the early days, but much like the Vita, it’s going to be hard to continue getting developer support unless the platform can compete with the Quest. The Quest 2 has 90% market share and outsold the Xbox last year. It’s going to be hard to convince Developers to develop on the PSVR 2 when it’s likely that the platform won’t even sell 20% of what the Quest does in a year.

I'll definitely buy one and I have a Quest 2 I like too. Why not both...

PSVR2 is more about high end VR. Quest 2 has much lower specs but with a bit more freedom of movement. Both can be successful.

Remember PSVR1 was really successful, it was the most successful headset before Quest 2.

I suspect there will be a lot of impressive seated VR games on PSVR2.
 

Ozriel

Member
I'll definitely buy one and I have a Quest 2 I like too. Why not both...

PSVR2 is more about high end VR. Quest 2 has much lower specs but with a bit more freedom of movement. Both can be successful.

Remember PSVR1 was really successful, it was the most successful headset before Quest 2.

I suspect there will be a lot of impressive seated VR games on PSVR2.

Yeah, if you’re a VR fan with a PlayStation 5, the ideal thing is to buy both. The quest is cheap enough to splurge on and get that wireless gaming fix. Then go tethered with PSVR2

Sony will definitely lead the line in making visually rich games for VR.

While wireless would have been really cool, im actually fine with the single cable PSVR2 system. Much much easier to set up than PSVR and should have much better tracking.
 
Last edited:

Kusarigama

Member
I hope atleast all fps games have somekind of support for PSVR2. This in addition to bespoke VR games should make owning PSVR2 more lucrative.
Now gotta get my hands on a PS5 first.
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
The deal breaker is the damn cable. They should at least sell wireless kits if wireless was too expensive for the masses.

Another dealbreaker is that you need to purchase a PS5 to run it, which drives up the overall cost, not to mention the PS5 being hard to find in the next few years. Meta would have release new Quest headsets by then to close the power gap.

Yeah but Facebook doesn't have Sony's incredible Game Studios cranking out games, sure it'll not hit the Quest sold numbers and whilst wired I bet the experience will be a lot greater due to the tech

Feels like people still haven’t learn any lesson from Vita’s failure.
 

RJMacready73

Gold Member
How’d that work out for PSVR 1?
PSVR1 was a gen1 product and thus had its limitations but it managed to overcome them and deliver some excellent experiences and no doubt sold enough to warrant a gen2 with a much better chance at gaining a bigger foothold, it's not looking to topple Quest but everything that can run on a quest will run easily on a PSVR2 but good luck getting Forbidden West VR running on a Quest!

Quest2 doesn't interest me oh look I can walk around my room, I've no interest in those sort of games personally, I prefer seated experiences, I don't stand up and play videogames so why the hell would I want to stand up in VR all the time, nah I want to be in the cockpit of a racecar, a spaceship or exploring world's from the comfort of my sofa with the occasional standup experience and with the tech that Sony is putting in this thing coupled with its game studios and all that it's learnt from the original you just know it's gonna be an absolute banger
 
Quest 2 and psvr2 and are not in the same league, its like mobile vs console, psv2 will be chepest entry to AAA VR, in a few years time,
 
Last edited:

Baki

Member
Quest 2 has a serious problem though, AAA dev support just isn’t there, like at all. PSVR2 should get better support since it’s Sony first party but so far they haven’t convinced me it’ll be any better than PSVR1. As a fan of VR in general it’s frustrating to see devs on all platforms be so afraid to jump in properly.
Lol if you think AAA dev is a problem with Quest 2. You’re going to be in a rude awakening for PSVR 2 AAA support. The math is simple, why would a studio spend $$$ on a AAA game for PSVR2 when it’s probably going to have less than 1-2m PSVR2 owners versus 20m for Quest 2?
Yeah but Facebook doesn't have Sony's incredible Game Studios cranking out games, sure it'll not hit the Quest sold numbers and whilst wired I bet the experience will be a lot greater due to the tech
That support is going to dry up real quick when Sony realises that they can’t sell more than 2m PSVR2 devices a year and the competition with Xbox requires them to push out more PS5 exclusive games. Vita all over again.

I'll definitely buy one and I have a Quest 2 I like too. Why not both...

PSVR2 is more about high end VR. Quest 2 has much lower specs but with a bit more freedom of movement. Both can be successful.

Remember PSVR1 was really successful, it was the most successful headset before Quest 2.

I suspect there will be a lot of impressive seated VR games on PSVR2.

My comment isn’t about whether a handful of people like you will enjoy PSVR2. Its about commercial viability and how Sony has made PSVR2 non viable as a platform for devs because I think PSVR2 is going to sell similar numbers to PSVR and will therefore be a commercial flop.

Another dealbreaker is that you need to purchase a PS5 to run it, which drives up the overall cost, not to mention the PS5 being hard to find in the next few years. Meta would have release new Quest headsets by then to close the power gap.



Feels like people still haven’t learn any lesson from Vita’s failure.

Exactly. But I think vita is going to look like a wild success in comparison.
 
I think Quest has created a lot of consumer buzz around VR just within the last year that wasn't there previously at a mainstream scale. Many PS gamers that have never tried VR at all will be considering it this time. I'm sure it'll do pretty well.

I'm not yet convinced on things like eye tracking but we'll see. Sounds like it's all in the theoretical stage at this point for most developers.

I don't think anyone is going to be rushing out to buy $70 VR games. If they're smart, they'll keep them between $10-40.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
The Quest 2 has 90% market share and outsold the Xbox last year. It’s going to be hard to convince Developers to develop on the PSVR 2 when it’s likely that the platform won’t even sell 20% of what the Quest does in a year.
This was the case in reverse for PSVR first 2 years on the market against Oculus (and everything else - PSVR outsold a year's worth of entire PCVR market in its first month on sale). It didn't stop development for others.

That aside - there's indicators PSVR2 strategy might be leaning towards having more cross-products with flat-screen. No VR device to date (all Quests included) has had any real penetration in terms of console-scale large budget productions (PSVR was the the only one that got a few really, PCVR basically got one in 6 years). Hard to say whether that'll work as a sales point, but it's a differentiating point against Quest, so at least they're not competing for the same market.
 

DukeNukem00

Banned
This was the case in reverse for PSVR first 2 years on the market against Oculus (and everything else - PSVR outsold a year's worth of entire PCVR market in its first month on sale). It didn't stop development for others.

That aside - there's indicators PSVR2 strategy might be leaning towards having more cross-products with flat-screen. No VR device to date (all Quests included) has had any real penetration in terms of console-scale large budget productions (PSVR was the the only one that got a few really, PCVR basically got one in 6 years). Hard to say whether that'll work as a sales point, but it's a differentiating point against Quest, so at least they're not competing for the same market.


Only Half Life Alyx had a large enough budget to be comparable with a regular AAA PC game - on the high end estimates are 75 million dollars for it. But Valve is in a one of a kind position in gaming where they have billions and didnt give a flying fuck about sales because they made the budget back in a week. They could aford such a lavish production just to see how the market embraces it. But everyone else cant spend this kind of money for such a tiny market. Not even close. Someone would have to want to eat gigantic loses in order to invest tens of million into a bigger VR game
 

Boss Mog

Member
PSVR2 is going to be DOA. Wired, requires a PS5 is going to be a tough sell in 2022 or 2023. Sony might be able to support the platform with some games in the early days, but much like the Vita, it’s going to be hard to continue getting developer support unless the platform can compete with the Quest. The Quest 2 has 90% market share and outsold the Xbox last year. It’s going to be hard to convince Developers to develop on the PSVR 2 when it’s likely that the platform won’t even sell 20% of what the Quest does in a year.
Troll post?
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
PSVR2 is going to be DOA. Wired, requires a PS5 is going to be a tough sell in 2022 or 2023.
Didn't know that.

I assumed it works with PS4 too, just that if you want PS5 quality VR games, you got have a PS5.

Unless PS5 sales ramp up a lot rest of year, I dont see it worth it launching it during holidays 2022 (which is what many articles say is the estimated date).
 
Last edited:

Fredrik

Gold Member
Only Half Life Alyx had a large enough budget to be comparable with a regular AAA PC game - on the high end estimates are 75 million dollars for it. But Valve is in a one of a kind position in gaming where they have billions and didnt give a flying fuck about sales because they made the budget back in a week. They could aford such a lavish production just to see how the market embraces it. But everyone else cant spend this kind of money for such a tiny market. Not even close. Someone would have to want to eat gigantic loses in order to invest tens of million into a bigger VR game
Incredibly frustrating.

It’s not like PS5 started out having 20 million units at launch, but we still got big games relatively quick.
Returnal was a success at 500k copies sold iirc.

Why couldn’t a VR Returnal arrive relatively quick for a VR headset? What’s the difference from regular consle launches?

Big devs jump in left and right to be there at launch for a new console.

For VR headset launches big devs just throw together some smaller B team or leave it to indies to grow the market.

Then when people put their headsets back in the box because there are no games devs complain that the market isn’t big enough.
dumb patrick star GIF by SpongeBob SquarePants
 
Last edited:

TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
Troll post?
People keep saying he’s trolling, but no lies detected here. Where’s the counterpoint? Quest hits a sweet spot of cost and power, and wireless blows wired out of the water. It can be paired with a PC if you want high end experiences. There’s a huge install base. Only thing PSVR 2 can compete on is eye tracking and software, and while they have offered some compelling software like resident evil 7 and farpoint they are mostly limited to seated experiences. Unfortunately for PSVR quest just does it all better and cheaper, with the exception of buying a PC which is totally not necessary to enjoy the device. I own a PSVR 1 and I’ve played many games, I’ve made VR experiences in Dreams with it, and being wired is limiting and immersion breaking. I’m down for better PSVR, but without some killer apps I can’t justify the cost vs the quest which I can take anywhere and play like magic.
 

Boss Mog

Member
People keep saying he’s trolling, but no lies detected here. Where’s the counterpoint? Quest hits a sweet spot of cost and power, and wireless blows wired out of the water. It can be paired with a PC if you want high end experiences. There’s a huge install base. Only thing PSVR 2 can compete on is eye tracking and software, and while they have offered some compelling software like resident evil 7 and farpoint they are mostly limited to seated experiences. Unfortunately for PSVR quest just does it all better and cheaper, with the exception of buying a PC which is totally not necessary to enjoy the device. I own a PSVR 1 and I’ve played many games, I’ve made VR experiences in Dreams with it, and being wired is limiting and immersion breaking. I’m down for better PSVR, but without some killer apps I can’t justify the cost vs the quest which I can take anywhere and play like magic.
I have tried many games on the Quest 2 and nothing I tried even comes close to AstroBot Rescue Mission. The wire has never bothered me at all on PSVR. Quest 2 graphics are extremely weak compared to PSVR2 and has it has very few compelling games. I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of the Quest's sales are just guys who want a VR porn device.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of the Quest's sales are just guys who want a VR porn device.
It would be literally worth the purchase price just for that, movies and web browsing.

But Quest has lots of good games. Most are pretty small, arcade-ish games though, which I actually like. I haven't played Astrobot. Isn't it similar to Moss and Lucky's Tale?
 

TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
I have tried many games on the Quest 2 and nothing I tried even comes close to AstroBot Rescue Mission. The wire has never bothered me at all on PSVR. Quest 2 graphics are extremely weak compared to PSVR2 and has it has very few compelling games. I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of the Quest's sales are just guys who want a VR porn device.
Astrobot is great, forgot about that one. Still, I’d have to say quest has more compelling experiences. Eleven table tennis is a game that greatly benefits from wireless and instantly makes sense to everyone, it’s just like playing actual ping pong. Theres several quality shooters that also benefit from wireless, such as contractors, pavlov, and onward. Blade and sorcery is another game that really sells the freedom. These are all games that will still feel better on quest regardless because you’re not glued to your couch. As great as astrobot is, you’re not even using hand tracking, so it’s hardly getting the most out of VR. The wire hasn’t bothered you because the games are designed to have you sitting on your couch and not moving your body, which is totally valid but very limited. Try playing gorilla tag or echo arena on a couch, both compelling and free games. There’s quite a developing games library on quest.

I would love to see some high definition cockpit experiences in PSVR2, racing games will be great. Unfortunately they are still behind in the tech race, and while they can push graphics and leverage their studios for good experiences, that still isn’t enough to compete with quest that can really do it all. The market for PSVR 2 is only people who own a ps5, care more about graphics than playing experience, and don’t have a VR capable PC. That’s a relatively small market with a high cost to get into when anyone off the street can buy a more fully capable VR device for less. I own a ps5 and a PSVR 1 and a quest, and I’d like to see what this new device can do, but if you’re into VR it makes more sense to invest in a PC where all of the games are.

I wish playstation the best, but this is going to be an uphill battle to succeed on the VR market.
 
I think all hardware is gonna sell better post covid than before. Theres no way the demand for the PSVR2 doesn’t meet the supply again, which is gonna continue to drive sales
 

Boss Mog

Member
Astrobot is great, forgot about that one. Still, I’d have to say quest has more compelling experiences. Eleven table tennis is a game that greatly benefits from wireless and instantly makes sense to everyone, it’s just like playing actual ping pong. Theres several quality shooters that also benefit from wireless, such as contractors, pavlov, and onward. Blade and sorcery is another game that really sells the freedom. These are all games that will still feel better on quest regardless because you’re not glued to your couch. As great as astrobot is, you’re not even using hand tracking, so it’s hardly getting the most out of VR. The wire hasn’t bothered you because the games are designed to have you sitting on your couch and not moving your body, which is totally valid but very limited. Try playing gorilla tag or echo arena on a couch, both compelling and free games. There’s quite a developing games library on quest.

I would love to see some high definition cockpit experiences in PSVR2, racing games will be great. Unfortunately they are still behind in the tech race, and while they can push graphics and leverage their studios for good experiences, that still isn’t enough to compete with quest that can really do it all. The market for PSVR 2 is only people who own a ps5, care more about graphics than playing experience, and don’t have a VR capable PC. That’s a relatively small market with a high cost to get into when anyone off the street can buy a more fully capable VR device for less. I own a ps5 and a PSVR 1 and a quest, and I’d like to see what this new device can do, but if you’re into VR it makes more sense to invest in a PC where all of the games are.

I wish playstation the best, but this is going to be an uphill battle to succeed on the VR market.
For me PSVR2 is worth it just for a new AstroBot game. That game gave me a sense of wonder I hadn't had since I was a kid. I just trust Sony to bring a few AAA games that will be compelling and a few third parties to do so as well. I have a good feeling Half-Life: Alyx will be on there at launch and maybe GT7 and RE8.

PSVR could be connected to PC via some third party software. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony made it PC compatible themselves this time around since they seem to have embraced PC as a platform and because this time the VR tech will be up to PC standards. They are bringing a lot of innovative tech to VR this time around instead of playing catch-up. They seem to be all-in.

I agree that for people without a PS5 it will be a tough sell with a high entry cost but I don't think that's who they're targeting. There's a lot of PS5s out there and more coming everyday. If Sony can get 10-20% of PS5 owners to become PSVR2 owners, I think it will be a big success for them. I'm sure they have people who evaluated if making a new PSVR was worth it for them financially and if they moved forward it's because they think it will be and frankly I think it will be too, as long as they release compelling and innovative software.

I like Oculus standalone devices, I have a Go and have played a friend's Quest 2, but I just don't think they will push VR gaming to the next level, at least for now. For VR to become more mainstream it needs PlayStation because PlayStation is more mainstream than PC gaming and stand alone VR headsets.
 
Last edited:

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
It would be literally worth the purchase price just for that, movies and web browsing.

But Quest has lots of good games. Most are pretty small, arcade-ish games though, which I actually like. I haven't played Astrobot. Isn't it similar to Moss and Lucky's Tale?

Thing is, we don't know if the PSVR2 will be backward compatible and thus play Astro Bot, considering the vast difference in terms of the tracking technology. Then again VR has pretty much outgrown the PSVR in the last few years, considering the Quest 2 has more or less outsold the PSVR at a shorter time period. Many developers are also seeing significantly better profit on Quest 2 than PSVR and PCVR combined, and subsequent Quest products will only continue to push VR to mainstream. We should see bunch of VR titles floating between Quest 2 (and subsequent Quest headsets), PSVR2 and PCVR in the coming years.
 

Baki

Member
I think Quest has created a lot of consumer buzz around VR just within the last year that wasn't there previously at a mainstream scale. Many PS gamers that have never tried VR at all will be considering it this time. I'm sure it'll do pretty well.

I'm not yet convinced on things like eye tracking but we'll see. Sounds like it's all in the theoretical stage at this point for most developers.

I don't think anyone is going to be rushing out to buy $70 VR games. If they're smart, they'll keep them between $10-40.

Depends what you mean by selling “well”? If you mean PSVR2 might sell more than PSVR, than sure, I can see that. But I don’t see PSVR2 selling well enough to receive robust development support in a world where Quest will have 10-20X more units out there.

This was the case in reverse for PSVR first 2 years on the market against Oculus (and everything else - PSVR outsold a year's worth of entire PCVR market in its first month on sale). It didn't stop development for others.

That aside - there's indicators PSVR2 strategy might be leaning towards having more cross-products with flat-screen. No VR device to date (all Quests included) has had any real penetration in terms of console-scale large budget productions (PSVR was the the only one that got a few really, PCVR basically got one in 6 years). Hard to say whether that'll work as a sales point, but it's a differentiating point against Quest, so at least they're not competing for the same market.
Developers had to develop for all platforms in the early days of VR because the market was so small. I wouldn’t bet on that in the future. Expect to see more and more games become Quest exclusive.

Also, PSVR2 target market is niche as fuck. Expect PSVR2 to get “Vita-ed” unless Sony pulls their head out of their ass and actually releases a Quest competitor.

Troll post?
Nothing I said was untrue.

Didn't know that.

I assumed it works with PS4 too, just that if you want PS5 quality VR games, you got have a PS5.

Unless PS5 sales ramp up a lot rest of year, I dont see it worth it launching it during holidays 2022 (which is what many articles say is the estimated date).
PS5 only

Incredibly frustrating.

It’s not like PS5 started out having 20 million units at launch, but we still got big games relatively quick.
Returnal was a success at 500k copies sold iirc.

Why couldn’t a VR Returnal arrive relatively quick for a VR headset? What’s the difference from regular consle launches?

Big devs jump in left and right to be there at launch for a new console.

For VR headset launches big devs just throw together some smaller B team or leave it to indies to grow the market.

Then when people put their headsets back in the box because there are no games devs complain that the market isn’t big enough.
dumb patrick star GIF by SpongeBob SquarePants
Develops can rely on PS5 eventually reaching a large install base. Jury is out for PSVR2 and all signs point to it remaining niche. Also you’ll notice that most games are cross gen. Returnal was a Sony funded game.

People keep saying he’s trolling, but no lies detected here. Where’s the counterpoint? Quest hits a sweet spot of cost and power, and wireless blows wired out of the water. It can be paired with a PC if you want high end experiences. There’s a huge install base. Only thing PSVR 2 can compete on is eye tracking and software, and while they have offered some compelling software like resident evil 7 and farpoint they are mostly limited to seated experiences. Unfortunately for PSVR quest just does it all better and cheaper, with the exception of buying a PC which is totally not necessary to enjoy the device. I own a PSVR 1 and I’ve played many games, I’ve made VR experiences in Dreams with it, and being wired is limiting and immersion breaking. I’m down for better PSVR, but without some killer apps I can’t justify the cost vs the quest which I can take anywhere and play like magic.
Thank you.

I have tried many games on the Quest 2 and nothing I tried even comes close to AstroBot Rescue Mission. The wire has never bothered me at all on PSVR. Quest 2 graphics are extremely weak compared to PSVR2 and has it has very few compelling games. I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of the Quest's sales are just guys who want a VR porn device.
Now this is a troll post

For me PSVR2 is worth it just for a new AstroBot game. That game gave me a sense of wonder I hadn't had since I was a kid. I just trust Sony to bring a few AAA games that will be compelling and a few third parties to do so as well. I have a good feeling Half-Life: Alyx will be on there at launch and maybe GT7 and RE8.

PSVR could be connected to PC via some third party software. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony made it PC compatible themselves this time around since they seem to have embraced PC as a platform and because this time the VR tech will be up to PC standards. They are bringing a lot of innovative tech to VR this time around instead of playing catch-up. They seem to be all-in.

I agree that for people without a PS5 it will be a tough sell with a high entry cost but I don't think that's who they're targeting. There's a lot of PS5s out there and more coming everyday. If Sony can get 10-20% of PS5 owners to become PSVR2 owners, I think it will be a big success for them. I'm sure they have people who evaluated if making a new PSVR was worth it for them financially and if they moved forward it's because they think it will be and frankly I think it will be too, as long as they release compelling and innovative software.

I like Oculus standalone devices, I have a Go and have played a friend's Quest 2, but I just don't think they will push VR gaming to the next level, at least for now. For VR to become more mainstream it needs PlayStation because PlayStation is more mainstream than PC gaming and stand alone VR headsets.
PSVR sold to only 4% of PS4 owners. 10-20% attach rate is unlikely to happen. You’re expecting a 5-2.5x increase in sales and even if it does happen, those are numbers are still tiny. 10% attach rate by end of 2024 means Sony only sold 4M PSVR2 units. That’s pretty shit. The Quest will probably have sold 40M units by then.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Depends what you mean by selling “well”? If you mean PSVR2 might sell more than PSVR, than sure, I can see that. But I don’t see PSVR2 selling well enough to receive robust development support in a world where Quest will have 10-20X more units out there.


Developers had to develop for all platforms in the early days of VR because the market was so small. I wouldn’t bet on that in the future. Expect to see more and more games become Quest exclusive.

Also, PSVR2 target market is niche as fuck. Expect PSVR2 to get “Vita-ed” unless Sony pulls their head out of their ass and actually releases a Quest competitor.


Nothing I said was untrue.


PS5 only


Develops can rely on PS5 eventually reaching a large install base. Jury is out for PSVR2 and all signs point to it remaining niche. Also you’ll notice that most games are cross gen. Returnal was a Sony funded game.


Thank you.


Now this is a troll post


PSVR sold to only 4% of PS4 owners. 10-20% attach rate is unlikely to happen. You’re expecting a 5-2.5x increase in sales and even if it does happen, those are numbers are still tiny. 10% attach rate by end of 2024 means Sony only sold 4M PSVR2 units. That’s pretty shit. The Quest will probably have sold 40M units by then.
The posts you have made here could be summarised with “it will fail because it has a wire and because I said so + developers who could make multiplatform VR games will not because <no reasons provided> and without games it will fail”.

Not to say it could not end up like PS Vita, but being so certain it will seems premature. You say you are open to changing your mind but your posts do not convey that at all, just saying.
 
Last edited:
Depends what you mean by selling “well”? If you mean PSVR2 might sell more than PSVR, than sure, I can see that. But I don’t see PSVR2 selling well enough to receive robust development support in a world where Quest will have 10-20X more units out there.


Developers had to develop for all platforms in the early days of VR because the market was so small. I wouldn’t bet on that in the future. Expect to see more and more games become Quest exclusive.

Also, PSVR2 target market is niche as fuck. Expect PSVR2 to get “Vita-ed” unless Sony pulls their head out of their ass and actually releases a Quest competitor.


Nothing I said was untrue.


PS5 only


Develops can rely on PS5 eventually reaching a large install base. Jury is out for PSVR2 and all signs point to it remaining niche. Also you’ll notice that most games are cross gen. Returnal was a Sony funded game.


Thank you.


Now this is a troll post


PSVR sold to only 4% of PS4 owners. 10-20% attach rate is unlikely to happen. You’re expecting a 5-2.5x increase in sales and even if it does happen, those are numbers are still tiny. 10% attach rate by end of 2024 means Sony only sold 4M PSVR2 units. That’s pretty shit. The Quest will probably have sold 40M units by then.
Quest would outsold PS VR 2 by 10-20x?

PS VR sold 5 million units (and that's nearly 30 months old data). Let's assume PS VR didn't sell even a single unit after that. PS VR 2 sales would be at least 10 million, do you agree?

10-20x of 10 million PS VR 2 units would put Quest 2 at 100 million to 200 million units. Both PlayStation and Xbox combined haven't sold 200 million units :)

And even PS VR, despite not selling very well and using outdated controllers, still had excellent first-party and third-party support. Lots of exclusives, including big ones such as Resident Evil, Hitman, Marvel's Iron Man, etc. PS VR 2 will for sure get lots of software support.

With PlayStation, software support is really the last thing to worry about.
 

yurinka

Member
PSVR sold to only 4% of PS4 owners. 10-20% attach rate is unlikely to happen. You’re expecting a 5-2.5x increase in sales and even if it does happen, those are numbers are still tiny. 10% attach rate by end of 2024 means Sony only sold 4M PSVR2 units. That’s pretty shit. The Quest will probably have sold 40M units by then.
It's fair to think PSVR2 will have a higher attach rate because:
-Seems it will fix or highly improve many of the flaws or annoying things of the PSVR1 (resolution, cables, dizziness, controls, external camera, grid effect, etc)
-In terms of horsepower the PS5 is more ready for VR than PS4, so maybe it's easier to bring games there so it may get more support from devs and more AAA-ish games
-Many new things to improve inmersion: 3D audio, haptic feedback in headset and controllers, resolution, loading times, better controllers, etc
-Many people was curious about PSVR but thought the first one was too primitive/experimental and waited for the PSVR2 iteration to get many things improved and polished

So at least I assume player feeback and word of mouth as of now seems it's going to be way better, which may result in better sales. We still have to see the games and price, which will be key. If not too expensive, I think maybe 20% is too much, but I think a 10% attach rate is likely.

And well, we'll have to see if it's going to be compatible with PC. In that case I think it would help its sales.
 

Baki

Member
It's fair to think PSVR2 will have a higher attach rate because:
-Seems it will fix or highly improve many of the flaws or annoying things of the PSVR1 (resolution, cables, dizziness, controls, external camera, grid effect, etc)
-In terms of horsepower the PS5 is more ready for VR than PS4, so maybe it's easier to bring games there so it may get more support from devs and more AAA-ish games
-Many new things to improve inmersion: 3D audio, haptic feedback in headset and controllers, resolution, loading times, better controllers, etc
-Many people was curious about PSVR but thought the first one was too primitive/experimental and waited for the PSVR2 iteration to get many things improved and polished

So at least I assume player feeback and word of mouth as of now seems it's going to be way better, which may result in better sales. We still have to see the games and price, which will be key. If not too expensive, I think maybe 20% is too much, but I think a 10% attach rate is likely.

And well, we'll have to see if it's going to be compatible with PC. In that case I think it would help its sales.
A 10% attach rate would still be pretty shit from an install base perspective. Way too small for it to be viable for developers. Especially as Quest 2 will probably have 5-10x the audience size.
 
Last edited:

reksveks

Member
A 10% attach rate would still be pretty shit from a platform perspective. Way too small for it to be viable for developers. Especially as Quest 2 will probably have 5-10x the audience size.
It's not just about size of the platform, it's also about how much work that devs will have to do to port to psvr2.

I suspect that it might be an issue for the smaller vr devs.

I do think the Quest is going to be the primary platform for most devs.
 

Baki

Member
Quest would outsold PS VR 2 by 10-20x?

PS VR sold 5 million units (and that's nearly 30 months old data). Let's assume PS VR didn't sell even a single unit after that. PS VR 2 sales would be at least 10 million, do you agree?

10-20x of 10 million PS VR 2 units would put Quest 2 at 100 million to 200 million units. Both PlayStation and Xbox combined haven't sold 200 million units :)
PSVR sold 1 million units a year. Quest is selling 10 million units a year. By the time PSVR2 come out, Quest will be close to 20 million units. My 10-20x suggestion is about the mid life cycle of PSVR2, where it’s entirely possible that by the time the PSVR2 reaches 2 million units, the Quest will have an install base between 20-40 million units. That’s taking into account that PSVR2 sells twice as fast as the original. So that’s me being incredibly generous with my estimations. I actually think it’s entirely likely that PSVR2 sales will be slower than PSVR as Sony are releasing the headset into a far more competitive environment and it requires a ps5 which is really hard to get a hold of due to chip shortages.

And even PS VR, despite not selling very well and using outdated controllers, still had excellent first-party and third-party support. Lots of exclusives, including big ones such as Resident Evil, Hitman, Marvel's Iron Man, etc. PS VR 2 will for sure get lots of software support.
PSVR was cheap and that’s why it was more successful than PCVR (initially).

With PlayStation, software support is really the last thing to worry about.

Tell that to Vita owners. (I was one of them)

Don’t expect developers to waste resources on a platform that has barely any users.
 

Baki

Member
It's not just about size of the platform, it's also about how much work that devs will have to do to port to psvr2.

I suspect that it might be an issue for the smaller vr devs.

I do think the Quest is going to be the primary platform for most devs.
Devs won’t bother unless they’re paid by Sony. Port costs require going from ARM to x86. It will also require an increased investment in IQ because of the power of the PS5. Not worth it if the platform has barely any users. Sony and a lot of people in this forum are going to be in for a rude awakening when this launches and eventually stops getting support after 3 years.
 

Baki

Member
The posts you have made here could be summarised with “it will fail because it has a wire and because I said so + developers who could make multiplatform VR games will not because <no reasons provided> and without games it will fail”.

Not to say it could not end up like PS Vita, but being so certain it will seems premature. You say you are open to changing your mind but your posts do not convey that at all, just saying.
We have several years of VR sales data to demonstrate that “cost” and “ease of use” were key barriers to adoption. VR only took off with the Quest and they have $1B in software sales last year to demonstrate that. So my lack of belief In PSVR2 comes down to Sony making the same mistakes they did with PSVR. High cost of entry combined with a wire.

A better question would be, can you see PSVR2 reaching 30 million install base within 3-4 years? That’s what it would take to make it a viable platform for the long term. I just don’t see the path towards that.

Now if they launched PSVR2 as a standalone Quest competitor. I would be very bullish on Sonys prospects.
 

reksveks

Member
Port costs require going from ARM to x86. It will also require an increased investment in IQ because of the power of the PS5
Yes to the first one, the second one is optionally and some thing that devs should do but they could cheap out to maximum roi.

Not worth it if the platform has barely any users

It's a bit hard to guess roi calculations. Also one thing that would be interested to see if software purchasing habits of quest users vs psvr2 users.
 

Baki

Member
Yes to the first one, the second one is optionally and some thing that devs should do but they could cheap out to maximum roi.



It's a bit hard to guess roi calculations. Also one thing that would be interested to see if software purchasing habits of quest users vs psvr2 users.
Purchasing habits don’t mean much when there’s a 10x install base difference. PS2 had a 4-5x install base advantage and we can see how many de facto exclusives the PS2 received as a result. Now imagine that issue, but more magnified because the PSVR2 install base is so small, games won’t be profitable without subsidises from Sony. As we’ve seen from the Vita, Sony is quick to abandon platforms when they feel they need to focus on their core home console. In an environment where MS is spending aggressively, if PSVR2 doesn’t become self sufficient, I can see Sony abandoning the platform. That said, I don’t think that’s the likely outcome, I think Sony Group HQ see VR as a growth sector and will try to release their own Quest competitor. No idea if that would be successful.
 
Last edited:
The hardware seems to be getting on a decent level, now we just need the software to match it.

The only VR title they've announced so far is that Horizon one and I don't understand why they would go for that. That 10 second clip really smelled like an old fashioned 'on rails' experience where you could look at the pretty robot dino's (oh no, a big one is going to step on you!! Aahh a near miss. How exciting, right?)
While they clearly should've gone for a HL:Alyx type of game in the Killzone universe!

I also believe that something like a space RTS (Homeworldish) could be cool in VR, ordering ships around and building stuff around your head. Make that a online competitive game and bang, you got your VR multiplayer title.
 
Top Bottom