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[HDTVTest] Horizon Forbidden West HDR Settings - 4 Things Guerrilla Games Didn't Tell You

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
So Tomek was right in his video...and people said he didn't have a clue.

Brightness -2
Black Level 0
Highlights -8

Enjoy

Too low a brightness always results in black crush in indoor areas on my C9 :(
Right now its at +2 for me which seems fine. I am sure -2 will look great for outdoors but for indoors, black crush ahoy.
I have never been able to properly eliminate black crush on C9, and I have no idea what I can do anymore. Is it inherent in OLEDs? Or am I doing something wrong?
 
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TrebleShot

Member
Too low a brightness always results in black crush in indoor areas on my C9 :(
Right now its at +2 for me which seems fine. I am sure -2 will look great for outdoors but for indoors, black crush ahoy.
I have never been able to properly eliminate black crush on C9, and I have no idea what I can do anymore. Is it inherent in OLEDs? Or am I doing something wrong?
I have a C9 as well and it varies between games and I have noticed the same thing, but I wouldn't boost brightness, but the black crushing can sometimes be related to black level in settings, Auto vs Low for example, basically they should match across PS5 and TV, I recently reset my TV so will have to mess about with it.
 
I have a crappy ips screen, hope to get an oled soon. Hope these help my hdr settings, but feel mine will be different.
So far my settings are:

+ 1
- 2
-1
 
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SlimySnake

Member
I will never enable hgig in my games. It makes games too dark.

Oleds aren’t as bright as LEDs, i don’t want to darken the picture even more no thanks.
 

Elios83

Member
On my QLED using my eyes as the calibration tool I found these settings to the best:

Brightness -2
Black 0
Highlights -1
Hgig active

So yeah I also thought as Vincent that the default image was too bright and uncomfortable to look at.
With these settings I can fully enjoy the amazing graphics.

In general it's impossible to find settings that are good for everyone. It depends on your TV, how it's calibrated and personal preferences.
But it seems like we can all agree that default settings are too bright.
 
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TrueLegend

Member
Too low a brightness always results in black crush in indoor areas on my C9 :(
Right now its at +2 for me which seems fine. I am sure -2 will look great for outdoors but for indoors, black crush ahoy.
I have never been able to properly eliminate black crush on C9, and I have no idea what I can do anymore. Is it inherent in OLEDs? Or am I doing something wrong?
How do you think OLED can remove it, by magic. Currently, OLED achieves grey by shutting off pixels for a half period of time. They cant display grays, you know what is more common in occurrence beween blacks and grays. Grays, they are all around but sure its all about the starry field isn't it. That per pixel control that gives you a beautiful unbloomed perfect black backdrop to the starry night when you watch star wars intro title roll isn't it. Or maybe you bought into marketing. Here is a tip on how to measure if you fell into a marketing trap or not, whenever the next iteration of something you bought comes off watch how reviewers trash it, just like how they now trash WOLED comparing to QD OLED. Just like they do with iPad and iPhone, suddenly the technologically flawless product sucks all of a sudden or maybe it wasn't that great to begin with. WOLEDs also have poor color volume but sure pat yourself on the back, you got an OLED. OLEDs do have one good thing about them but its not that infinite bullshit of holly dolly black level, it's the response time from color to color, thats what's great about it, other than that it sucks. If you want something great at a reasonable price I will say buy an apple XDR monitor, there is a reason reference monitors exist with their led panels because they just destroy any OLED in existence even the Bravia masterclass but you gotta have a taste for colors. There is a video of linus from ltt using one for SOTTR and then saying the color from the cheap monitor looks good to him but he doesn't know archeology, he doesn't know about Ochre color, he doesn't know how accurate and amazing SOTTR original color palette looks respective to its archeological background in a proper color monitor and he is not the only one. Many people will prefer cheaper over-saturated, vibrant color over right colors hence the OLEDS and the MAGIC they bring woo customers like you. Some OLEDs do handle it better though but it is inherent to how OLEDs work.
 

ParaSeoul

Gold Member
Vincent is a master clickbaiter as well as calibrator. He still tells people to use HGIG even though its hardly supported.
 

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
How do you think OLED can remove it, by magic. Currently, OLED achieves grey by shutting off pixels for a half period of time. They cant display grays, you know what is more common in occurrence beween blacks and grays. Grays, they are all around but sure its all about the starry field isn't it. That per pixel control that gives you a beautiful unbloomed perfect black backdrop to the starry night when you watch star wars intro title roll isn't it. Or maybe you bought into marketing. Here is a tip on how to measure if you fell into a marketing trap or not, whenever the next iteration of something you bought comes off watch how reviewers trash it, just like how they now trash WOLED comparing to QD OLED. Just like they do with iPad and iPhone, suddenly the technologically flawless product sucks all of a sudden or maybe it wasn't that great to begin with. WOLEDs also have poor color volume but sure pat yourself on the back, you got an OLED. OLEDs do have one good thing about them but its not that infinite bullshit of holly dolly black level, it's the response time from color to color, thats what's great about it, other than that it sucks. If you want something great at a reasonable price I will say buy an apple XDR monitor, there is a reason reference monitors exist with their led panels because they just destroy any OLED in existence even the Bravia masterclass but you gotta have a taste for colors. There is a video of linus from ltt using one for SOTTR and then saying the color from the cheap monitor looks good to him but he doesn't know archeology, he doesn't know about Ochre color, he doesn't know how accurate and amazing SOTTR original color palette looks respective to its archeological background in a proper color monitor and he is not the only one. Many people will prefer cheaper over-saturated, vibrant color over right colors hence the OLEDS and the MAGIC they bring woo customers like you. Some OLEDs do handle it better though but it is inherent to how OLEDs work.

Formatting, grammar and structure my man. What are you talking about? Very hard to understand.
I get the general gist, but its a headache to read.
 

TrueLegend

Member
Formatting, grammar and structure my man. What are you talking about? Very hard to understand.
I get the general gist, but its a headache to read.
Formatting what, Bold, italics for what? Is that how you write your reply posts on forums, your history says otherwise.
Grammar, the post doesn't have any grammatical mistakes.
Structure, well sure you come to the Neogaf forum for structured arguments.
Dude get your head out of your ass, just because it's unpleasant for you to read it you shouldn't wish apologies from other people for your inabilities or start this high horse grammar nazi nonsense.
 

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
Formatting what, Bold, italics for what? Is that how you write your reply posts on forums, your history says otherwise.
Grammar, the post doesn't have any grammatical mistakes.
Structure, well sure you come to the Neogaf forum for structured arguments.
Dude get your head out of your ass, just because it's unpleasant for you to read it you shouldn't wish apologies from other people for your inabilities or start this high horse grammar nazi nonsense.

Fuck off. I wasnt insulting you. Didnt even disagree with your post. You should get off your high horse that a mere suggestion upsets you so much.
 

kyliethicc

Member
So Tomek was right in his video...and people said he didn't have a clue.

Brightness -2
Black Level 0
Highlights -8

Enjoy
* only if you have an LG OLED and disable it's tone mapping

Yeh, no. If I set it like that it looks like shit on my OLED.

The only thing I've done is set brightness to -1 and the test image resolves all of the detail perfectly.
Yeah its almost as if the default settings are basically good enough for most people and the bright HDR look the game has is the intentional artistic style choice by the game creators.
 
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Shmunter

Gold Member
Sorry to say, this is a fucking embarrassment for a Sony studio.

Could this be the beginning of a downward slope for the brand. All this focus on multiplats, cross gen, acquisitions and gass nonsense could now be distracting from the singular focus.

This game does not deserve the praise or your money.
 

Lunarorbit

Gold Member
Sorry to say, this is a fucking embarrassment for a Sony studio.

Could this be the beginning of a downward slope for the brand. All this focus on multiplats, cross gen, acquisitions and gass nonsense could now be distracting from the singular focus.

This game does not deserve the praise or your money.
I've heard this sentiment for the past 10 years at least. I honestly would not worry about get single player games on Sony. The first horizon sold 20 million....

I'm primarily a single player gamer. I think horizon is dope and I'm excited to try elden ring when I get home, another single player game. It's Saul good man. Just ignore what isn't interesting
 

Kuranghi

Gold Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but this video is useless to LCD owners and for TVs without an "HGIG mode/tonemapping off" option?

I've just gone with -4, 0, +5 for my ZD9, I took screenshots inside a Cauldron and outside in the desert sun and:

On 0, 0, +2 the overall image is too bright, and the cauldron mid-shadows (don't know how else to say that lol, not the darkest ones) are blown out. Its not bad or anything, its totally awesome and playable but you can keep the bright highlights and increase contrast overall by a bit by changing it (+2 gives ~1600-nit highlights according to HDR Helpers brightness measurements graph, the test image loses a tiny bit of highlight detail at +2, but I with anyway because my Sony tends to blow out highlights a tiny bit anyway so I wanted the extra brightness, plus the values in game are slightly higher than the test image values anyway so its inevitable to lose detail in this game imo).

-8, 0, 9 wasn't too dark for 99% of shadow details but the overall image was too dull outside in the sun compared to how bright the highlights were and turning down highlights just made the image lose "HDR pop".

- 2, 0, +3 was great in the sun and I nearly stuck with that, just a bit less crazy overall brightness but still popping. When I went into a cauldron though I realised there could be a better balance for dark scenes. So I settled with the following:

-4, 0, +5

Thats 1600 nits according to HDR Helper graph:



You can find his analysis here, which I've found good when combined with VT and the dutch (?) guy's advice:


So if you're on LCD and/or don't have a tonemapping off mode then follow this guide/graph. Basically set Brightness as low or high as you want to get back shadow detail/reduce overbright image and then set the Highlights to correspond with your TVs HDR 10% window peak brightness, so if you want to save time just leave Brightness at default then bump Highlights down or up a few notches depending on your 10% window value, maybe one below your 10% value if you don't want the highlights to be that bit blown out but a bit dimmer. If you own a Samsung then set it to the exact value as they preserve the most highlight detail generally and if its a Sony then I suggest one pip below your peak to avoid too much clipping.
 
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Rea

Member
My A80J with XR gradation tone mapping does wonderfully. I just set the brightness to -1. There's no clipping highlights or shadow crushs. And then With live color on medium, Its so beautiful.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Never had to adjust a thing on the X90H either.
It is a very non-consumer thing to be fair.
You not need to adjust TV settings at all… it should be fine with default options and/or let the TV auto adjust.

But we are here in 2022 having to calibrate TVs to try to reach some fair image… it is very weird imo.

Plus everyone will have it own version of what is best or most accurate that makes Vincent videos just his personal view of what is good for him.

I tried several profissional settings in my TV… some reached the point you thing the guy have daltonism so off in colors it looks.
 
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JeloSWE

Member
I'm playing on a highly capable LCD (Z9F) that can reach 1700 nit peaks but does really well with 1000-1200 nit content. And default settings looks the best in most situations. Some highlight like the sun and surrounding clouds or some light sources close to a white wall can blow out a bit but that's mostly fine as everything else looks properly exposed. One really incompetent implementation and weird thing going on is that the moons reflection in water is much brighter than it's in the sky.

Brightness 0 (I've been going back and forth with +1 or +2 and they look better over all but blows out some highlight too much)
Shadows 0
Highlights 0 (maybe even -2 can work for me)
 
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ethomaz

Banned
I'm playing on a highly capable LCD (Z9F) that can reach 1700 nit peaks but does really well with 1000-1200 nit content. And default settings looks the best in most situations. Some highlight like the sun and surrounding clouds or some light sources close to a white wall can blow out a bit but that's mostly fine as everything else looks properly exposed. One really incompetent implementation and weird thing going on is that the moons reflection in water is much brighter than it's in the sky.

Brightness 0 (I've been going back and forth with +1 or +2 and they look better over all but blows out some highlight too much)
Shadows 0
Highlights 0 (maybe even -2 can work for me)
Default is probably good for all type of contents.
It is not the best for a specifically case but it is good to everything.

But if you want the best you will have to start to calibrate your TV for each game or movie you play.
 

Kuranghi

Gold Member
My A80J with XR gradation tone mapping does wonderfully. I just set the brightness to -1. There's no clipping highlights or shadow crushs. And then With live color on medium, Its so beautiful.

What do you mean by that? The tonemapping off setting?
 

Kuranghi

Gold Member
All this is basically pointless I know, I should just play the game lol, its fucking amazing on default anyway. You can't really do anything to break the image unless you change Shadows too much, even with -10 Brightness there shouldn't be any major shadow crush and +10 Brightness will lose you contrast and elevate shadows but I don't think the black level is really ruined even by that.

I'm playing on a highly capable LCD (Z9F) that can reach 1700 nit peaks but does really well with 1000-1200 nit content. And default settings looks the best in most situations. Some highlight like the sun and surrounding clouds or some light sources close to a white wall can blow out a bit but that's mostly fine as everything else looks properly exposed. One really incompetent implementation and weird thing going on is that the moons reflection in water is much brighter than it's in the sky.

Brightness 0 (I've been going back and forth with +1 or +2 and they look better over all but blows out some highlight too much)
Shadows 0
Highlights 0 (maybe even -2 can work for me)

Sorry to make you piss around when you're happy with it but I'm interested to know, on your ZF9, if you're on default/0 Brightness and set Highlights to +1 or +2 do you see any clipping in the clouds of the test image? I tended to use the bit near the centre bottom as +1 is great for me, +2 looked like it wasn't clipping until I noticed a tiny tiny change in that part of the image I mentioned.

Even with our similar peak brightnesses in HDR I'm sure our TVs do tonemapping differently given yours is X1U and mine is X1E so might that might be the reason if you do see clipping on the test pattern. I figured you would prefer to go with -2 at least for Brightness to stop the bright parts of the game looking a bit too bright overall, but also your TV panel has the lower contrast ratio than mine so maybe making the whole image darker just make it look less contrasty rather than more as it does for me.

I recommend +1 on Highlights if you're at the default Brightness to get ~1400 peaks, which leaves some headroom for your TV in case the game makes them brighter than the test page.
 
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DJ12

Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but this video is useless to LCD owners and for TVs without an "HGIG mode/tonemapping off" option?

I've just gone with -4, 0, +5 for my ZD9, I took screenshots inside a Cauldron and outside in the desert sun and:

On 0, 0, +2 the overall image is too bright, and the cauldron mid-shadows (don't know how else to say that lol, not the darkest ones) are blown out. Its not bad or anything, its totally awesome and playable but you can keep the bright highlights and increase contrast overall by a bit by changing it (+2 gives ~1600-nit highlights according to HDR Helpers brightness measurements graph, the test image loses a tiny bit of highlight detail at +2, but I with anyway because my Sony tends to blow out highlights a tiny bit anyway so I wanted the extra brightness, plus the values in game are slightly higher than the test image values anyway so its inevitable to lose detail in this game imo).

-8, 0, 9 wasn't too dark for 99% of shadow details but the overall image was too dull outside in the sun compared to how bright the highlights were and turning down highlights just made the image lose "HDR pop".

- 2, 0, +3 was great in the sun and I nearly stuck with that, just a bit less crazy overall brightness but still popping. When I went into a cauldron though I realised there could be a better balance for dark scenes. So I settled with the following:

-4, 0, +5

Thats 1600 nits according to HDR Helper graph:



You can find his analysis here, which I've found good when combined with VT and the dutch (?) guy's advice:


So if you're on LCD and/or don't have a tonemapping off mode then follow this guide/graph. Basically set Brightness as low or high as you want to get back shadow detail/reduce overbright image and then set the Highlights to correspond with your TVs HDR 10% window peak brightness, so if you want to save time just leave Brightness at default then bump Highlights down or up a few notches depending on your 10% window value, maybe one below your 10% value if you don't want the highlights to be that bit blown out but a bit dimmer. If you own a Samsung then set it to the exact value as they preserve the most highlight detail generally and if its a Sony then I suggest one pip below your peak to avoid too much clipping.
Thanks for this, will take a look at this.

Less than 800 nits shouldn't even be considered hdr. Glad I have something to look at so I can set my qn95a for this game.
 

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
Cant watch the video at work but i am guessing with HGIG on OLED the highlights meter is inaccurate according to the image you are using to calibrate. I had to drop the highlights significantly more than the picture suggested.

A good test for this is Gaia's robe. Its very highlight heavy and you can easily see where it clips.
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Sorry to say, this is a fucking embarrassment for a Sony studio.

Could this be the beginning of a downward slope for the brand. All this focus on multiplats, cross gen, acquisitions and gass nonsense could now be distracting from the singular focus.

This game does not deserve the praise or your money.
Horizon Forbidden West is magnificent and one of their best games, how is that going downwards
 

SSfox

Lies about why mods reply ban and warn me.
Sorry to say, this is a fucking embarrassment for a Sony studio.

Could this be the beginning of a downward slope for the brand. All this focus on multiplats, cross gen, acquisitions and gass nonsense could now be distracting from the singular focus.

This game does not deserve the praise or your money.
Fully agreed.
 
The fact that you have to have professional equipment to set your HDR to optimal levels means the devs screwed up and didn't give us a very good HDR calibration screen.

HDR sucks.

With SDR, you just set it and forget it. Never have to worry about anything.
 

JeloSWE

Member
Sorry to make you piss around when you're happy with it but I'm interested to know, on your ZF9, if you're on default/0 Brightness and set Highlights to +1 or +2 do you see any clipping in the clouds of the test image? I tended to use the bit near the centre bottom as +1 is great for me, +2 looked like it wasn't clipping until I noticed a tiny tiny change in that part of the image I mentioned.

Even with our similar peak brightnesses in HDR I'm sure our TVs do tonemapping differently given yours is X1U and mine is X1E so might that might be the reason if you do see clipping on the test pattern. I figured you would prefer to go with -2 at least for Brightness to stop the bright parts of the game looking a bit too bright overall, but also your TV panel has the lower contrast ratio than mine so maybe making the whole image darker just make it look less contrasty rather than more as it does for me.

I recommend +1 on Highlights if you're at the default Brightness to get ~1400 peaks, which leaves some headroom for your TV in case the game makes them brighter than the test page.
On Brightness 0 and Highlights 0 there is actually some minor clipping on the bottom cloud parts. Lowering Highlights to -2~ish will then recover the white clipped information, but the ingame sun will still be too bright and you need to lower it even more to maybe -4 but then the sun, clouds and and some highlights will will not look right, they will have an almost dirty off color look to them. My TV doesn't have any dynamic tonemapping options at all. It's better to just accept there will be some clipping in the brightest of highlights as those are areas you wouldn't normally look at for a prolonged time even in real life.

I do set Brightness to +1 at times but once I talk to the yellow robed (Gaia) hologram in the base it's just too bright LOL.
 
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JeloSWE

Member
The fact that you have to have professional equipment to set your HDR to optimal levels means the devs screwed up and didn't give us a very good HDR calibration screen.

HDR sucks.

With SDR, you just set it and forget it. Never have to worry about anything.
I get you sentiment that SDR is a set and forget as it's been around for so long. That said, HDR doesn't suck, it's really amazing when you have a good enough TV to display it, though the majority of monitors sucks rotten eggs honestly as do many TVs. Not to mention the amount games, shows and movies that applies it poorly. It's in part due to how the HDR10 standard is set up, then there is still are a lack of really good and affordable HDR capable displays to master the content on and finally a lack of understanding among film makers, colorists, and game devs on how to set up the game engine, lighting system, materials and rendering pipeline and out put and so on to achieve good HDR results.
 

SSfox

Lies about why mods reply ban and warn me.
So it's really that bad? Outch, personally so far only games i experienced that has shitty HDR are RDR2 and MWH. Didn't expected HZ2 HDR to be this bad, very disapointing specially from a Sony studio..
 

AGRacing

Member
Vincent plays in a pitch black room with dilating eye drops in. Double the usual dose of 1 drop. He's a 2 eye drop per eye guy.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Never trust a guy who wears glasses about what visually looks the best 🤭
As a glasses wearer I agree. I have so many freaking coating on my glasses, it's hard to see the original color.
After I made the surgery in my eyes the first thing I thought was "wow the real colors are vibrant... even with glasses I could never see that"... I was perplexed because I used glasses since very young (about 8 years old but my issues come from early than that... I was already using 2-3 degree of lens for astigmatism at 8 years old) and the first time I was really seeing everything right.... I did the surgery with 25 years old.
 
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JeloSWE

Member
So it's really that bad? Outch, personally so far only games i experienced that has shitty HDR are RDR2 and MWH. Didn't expected HZ2 HDR to be this bad, very disapointing specially from a Sony studio..
The HDR in HZFB isn't bad at all, it's just that the calibration image in settings is not completely representative of the ingame values, especially highlight as they can extend far beyond what what the settings image suggest. It's a good starting point however, then just pause the game in stations where things are crushing whites or blacks and adjust it in the settings. One really impressive thing about this game is that you can press start button at any point and make settings adjustments.
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
I've heard this sentiment for the past 10 years at least. I honestly would not worry about get single player games on Sony. The first horizon sold 20 million....

I'm primarily a single player gamer. I think horizon is dope and I'm excited to try elden ring when I get home, another single player game. It's Saul good man. Just ignore what isn't interesting
Hehe, by singular focus I meant quality above all else aspect as has been the Sony way, not single player games. Should have been more clear.

How does a Sony game come out ignoring the system level calibration already done by the user? And then to have the bespoke implementation practically broken.

This on top of the widely criticised shimmering/jaggy issues. This is not the Sony I’m expecting.
 

iHaunter

Member
After I made the surgery in my eyes the first thing I thought was "wow the real colors are vibrant... even with glasses I could never see that"... I was perplexed because I used glasses since very young (about 8 years old but my issues come from early than that... I was already using 2-3 degree of lens for astigmatism at 8 years old) and the first time I was really seeing everything right.... I did the surgery with 25 years old.
I was thinking about it. My optometrist said I was a good cand. for Lasik.
 
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