rofif
Banned
1500 nits? So no tv on the market?
My oled is like 700nits peak and it looks amazing. People are crazy with these nits values. What are you playing in your backyard or with shades wide open?
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HDR makes most games look worse.
- Thread starter bentanchorbolt
- Start date
- Opinion
My oled is like 700nits peak and it looks amazing. People are crazy with these nits values. What are you playing in your backyard or with shades wide open?
SamFo
Member
I think it depends on a few things.
FWIW - I have never seen any HDR implementation that was a *game changer* the way that the Games press talked about it (around the launch of the pro consoles).
I always felt no matter how much I calibrated it was always just wildly inconsistent for me - but I assume it's my TV panel
- Dev Implementation
- Console level calibration
- Game level calibration
- TV level calibration
- Type/Quality of TV...
FWIW - I have never seen any HDR implementation that was a *game changer* the way that the Games press talked about it (around the launch of the pro consoles).
I always felt no matter how much I calibrated it was always just wildly inconsistent for me - but I assume it's my TV panel
rofif
Banned
True but hgig only makes things more confusing for now...
On PC, hgig does not exist but it still does something. On consoles at least you calibrate max and peak brightness and darkest level so You can try using hgig.
But on pc? no idea if it's better to use dynamic tone mapping on,off or hgig
TonyK
Member
Honestly, there is a problem with your configuration but I understand you don't want to change anything and prefer to blame HDR. I have a LG CX, and before that a Sony, in both TVs HDR games look stunning. I didn't find any game that looked worse in HDR than standard, and for sure I didn't find any game that looked washed out in HDR. And about Outriders, I tried the demo in PS5 and blacks looks perfect. I know is infuriating when someone tells to other that that person doesn't have such problems and your first thought will be to think I am not educated enough to perceive that lack of quality in HDR, but it's not the case, I love HDR and for me it's a problem when a game doesn't have HDR (like now Yakuza like a Dragon), because then light doesn't seem correct/real.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Not sure mate, but most games look so great and vibrant in HDR. Check your calibration in console or your tv itself.
Haggard
Banned
The HDR implementation is an afterthought with tacked on (and often broken) tone mapping in many games and a lot of them look terribly washed out when you activate it (RDR2 comes to mind). This will get better with the next development cycle now that HDR is actually something that should be on every developer`s radar from the very beginning.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Kinda yeah, but just because devs do a shitty job with the implementation of this technology, also most tvs don't have good hdr.
Funny how many people can't even recognize when hdr completely fuck over color graduation but they rip their hairs off for just a brighter scene with more vivid colors thinking that it suppose to look like that...
Funny how many people can't even recognize when hdr completely fuck over color graduation but they rip their hairs off for just a brighter scene with more vivid colors thinking that it suppose to look like that...
thatJohann
Member
I have hdr off on my lg oled but mostly because it hurts my eyes
alucard0712_rus
Member
Because every display is different and there is no way to know what colors are really shown by your display unless its examined. That's when display calibrate n kicks in. On a more positive way - it needs to be done once per display and results are worth it. Our brain perceive calibrated display as 'more natural, life-like'. Ask Apple why they've always calibrating their displays. (Ipad, Iphone, Macbook screens for example will look much better than 'others')
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Kuranghi
Member
Its because when you turn on HDR in Windows it just tells your TV its HDR now, by putting it in an HDR container (A poorly tonemapped one at that, which makes the PS5 SDR-in-an-HDR-container problem look like a minor problem in comparison) so the TV gets the HDR flag and switches to its HDR picture mode - which is basically the picture mode you are currently on, but with maxed backlight/brightness, default gamma and brand specific extended dynamic range options turned on.
Its more for people doing video/image work I think, its not really useful for anything else I've found, since even if you try to do youtube in HDR on a browser it doesn't look nearly as good as just using the internal apps of your TV does.
Haggard
Banned
You obviously don`t even understand what HDR is if you call it a gimmick. A native HDR image is as "correct" as currently technically possible.
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saintjules
Member
1500 nits is wild. The sun must be next to them.
Kuranghi
Member
There are a few that actually do =>1500 nits during real content but yeah its few and far between, under 10 models total probably and some of them are not realistically affordable for most people. Most of them aren't available to buy new as well, no its only a few available new and a large chunk of them are 8K.
I'd say 1000 nits is what you want to make bright scenes in HDR look fantastic, but OLED peak brightness makes for great HDR too, its when it goes below ~500 nits that you start to see less of a difference in the parts that are meant to be really bright over the rest of the image. The thing is also that because OLED gets the dark parts so accurate, if you are in a dark room then the highlights will still seem very bright anyway.
It would (/should?) only be a tiny area of the screen thats actually 1500 nits (It will prob be 4000 or 10000 nits but TVs can't show that yet) in brightness, like the sun or a tiny specular highlight on some chrome in Fury Road. If the whole screen was requested to be 1500 nits for every pixel it would be far too bright though yes, it would probably really strain your eyes in a dark room.
My TV (ZD9) can go up to 1800 nits in certain circumstances, but still a long way to go before you can display 4000 nits without tonemapping, or the holy grail of 10000 nits. Vincent Teoh said he saw the Sony 10000 nit prototype next to a 75" ZD9 and it made the ZD9 look "shit" lol. Although I think that was maybe the ZG9 prototype, which ended up being 3000-4000 nits in practice.
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
Bad. Most monitors dont have it and using windows games HDR with a TV has been a shit experience for me. Honestly I don't miss it, or even think about HDR though.
bentanchorbolt
Banned
Lot of HDR stans ITT, didn’t realize it was possible.
My setup is fine fine, calibration is fine. The issue here is there is no standard for HDR and a lot of games have jacked up tone mapping, wether you want to admit it or not. I don’t think you know what you’re talking about or are at the very least you’re biased, based on how hard you seem to stan for HDR.
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Zeroing
Banned
I do not know if this was talked here, sorry I am on the phone, but does other TVs auto change to a HDR mode? My Samsung tv does that, HDR mode has different settings that need to be tuned, too bright, no auto brightness and the sharpness was at almost full etc.
So I had to change everything for that HDR mode. Essentially my tv has Game mode and HDR mode.
The settings of HDR mode are not good and applying my calibrated game mode settings did not result in good image so I had to calibrate everything for that HDR mode.
damn TVs are so hard nowadays
So I had to change everything for that HDR mode. Essentially my tv has Game mode and HDR mode.
The settings of HDR mode are not good and applying my calibrated game mode settings did not result in good image so I had to calibrate everything for that HDR mode.
damn TVs are so hard nowadays
Inviusx
Member
Ah yes HDR, the feature that manufactures assured us would be a game changer yet we're still wondering years later if it actually looks better or not.
Don't worry though, I'm sure the TV shills will be out in force again soon explaining why THIS YEARS TV is going to be the one that changes everything.
My advice, just turn it on and leave it, regardless of if you think it "looks better" or not you will forget about it after an hour and probably never think about it again.
HDR for gaming is a joke, change my mind
Don't worry though, I'm sure the TV shills will be out in force again soon explaining why THIS YEARS TV is going to be the one that changes everything.
My advice, just turn it on and leave it, regardless of if you think it "looks better" or not you will forget about it after an hour and probably never think about it again.
HDR for gaming is a joke, change my mind
rofif
Banned
That was exactly me talking two weeks ago. Week ago i got lg c1 oled for a monitor and HDR produces much better color range.
JeloSWE
Member
It depends on the display and the game. My TV can do 1700+ nits and games that support above 1000 nits through it's calibration looks REALLY good. Some games have wonky implementations and doesn't output anything over 1000 nits, they just look dim on my TV, I can compensate a bit with settings on the TV though.
Jumping back and forth between SDR and HDR in a game with great HDR you'll quickly start to appreciate the nice colors and sparkly highlights. Unfortunately, the majority of LCD TV on the market are cheap and bad at HDR and create grey black with low nits highlights and monitors are in general atrocious at HDR. OLEDs are better unless you have a top of the line LCD such as mine (Sony Z9F) but they still lack peak output and most maxes out under 700 nits and also have the super annoying Automatic Brightness Limiter to reduce risk of burn-in which causes day scenes to look dull compared to a good LCD.
Also due to most displays still not being capable of 1000+ nits reproduction, Hollywood and TV shows often maxes out at around 300-1000 nits which aren't especially spectacular.
Seeing a game with high adjustable peak brightness 2000~10.000 nits on a great display is really impressive and addictive. I don't think HDR is a fad that will die out and as times goes on we'll start seeing more competent TVs and display technologies and eventually even avarage joe monitors will start doing HDR some justice.
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It's all in the wrist
Member
HDR is transformative. Bad implementation of HDR is obviously bad, and frustrating, but it's relatively new for most developers so I'll let it slide and play those games in SDR.
Remember back in the day when you plugged in a cart and the game worked? Lol.
Remember back in the day when you plugged in a cart and the game worked? Lol.
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Dolby Vision is coming for Games on Xbox. That and HGIG should help.
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Kuranghi
Member
What model of HDR TV or monitor do you have?
I don't see anyone saying that year to year thing, there haven't been big changes with HDR TVs since around 2019, in terms of brightness and image processing at least. HDR video has only been a thing since 2015 and HDR capable TVs only really got going in 2016 so surely it wouldn't be unusual for it to be improving a lot year on year.
I've always just said you need a TV over a certain specification, preferably with a VA panel + full array local dimming backlights or an OLED panel for higher contrast, rather than IPS and edge-lit backlights. The TVs image processing is really important too but the HW is the shoulders on which the processing stands.
In my experience most games look slightly better in HDR, although it's often hard to put my finger on exactly WHY - it's quite a subtle effect - and a few look MUCH better.
Then there's RDR2 which just looks spectacularly crap. Very very dark and washed out, there's just no way that can be preferable.
The good ones I've found so far are things like Days Gone, God of War, Horizon ZD, and GT Sport.
Then there's RDR2 which just looks spectacularly crap. Very very dark and washed out, there's just no way that can be preferable.
The good ones I've found so far are things like Days Gone, God of War, Horizon ZD, and GT Sport.
01011001
Banned
the thing is, game developers seem to have this ability to fuck specific things up so colossally sometimes that it's kinda sad.
that and they often ignore features they can use.
so it isn't surprising that HDR implementations often suck ass... like have you played Destiny 2 with HDR on? that shit looks so bad it's ridiculous, it's like they haven't even playtested that.
I always bring up a specific example of how game devs just don't care...
Xbox 360 owners will surely remember how the system would automatically mute in-game music if you started playing your own MP3s in the background right? almost all 360 games used this feature (except for Call of Duty for some bizarre reason)
now many of you might ask why the PS4 and Xbox One don't have that feature set in place, and you would be right that the Xbox One doesn't have that feature... BUT THE PS4 DOES!
YES the PS4 has the system level ability to mute in-game music when you start playing MP3s or Spotify... the thing is, NO FUCKING DEVELOPER OPTIMISES THEIR GAME FOR IT ANYMORE! they simply don't give a shit. the only 3 games I've ever played that actually make use of this are Earth Defence Force 4.1 and 5, and Rocket League... AND ROCKET LEAGUE PATCHED IT OUT A FEW MONTHS AGO SEEMINGLY ACCIDENTALLY!
so the PS4 can do it, it's just that no developer can be asked to give a shit about it.
so yeah, it shouldn't be surprising that an optional feature like HDR would be undercooked and basically ignored by many developers, they often just put it in so they can use it in PR material as a buzzword it seems
that and they often ignore features they can use.
so it isn't surprising that HDR implementations often suck ass... like have you played Destiny 2 with HDR on? that shit looks so bad it's ridiculous, it's like they haven't even playtested that.
I always bring up a specific example of how game devs just don't care...
Xbox 360 owners will surely remember how the system would automatically mute in-game music if you started playing your own MP3s in the background right? almost all 360 games used this feature (except for Call of Duty for some bizarre reason)
now many of you might ask why the PS4 and Xbox One don't have that feature set in place, and you would be right that the Xbox One doesn't have that feature... BUT THE PS4 DOES!
YES the PS4 has the system level ability to mute in-game music when you start playing MP3s or Spotify... the thing is, NO FUCKING DEVELOPER OPTIMISES THEIR GAME FOR IT ANYMORE! they simply don't give a shit. the only 3 games I've ever played that actually make use of this are Earth Defence Force 4.1 and 5, and Rocket League... AND ROCKET LEAGUE PATCHED IT OUT A FEW MONTHS AGO SEEMINGLY ACCIDENTALLY!
so the PS4 can do it, it's just that no developer can be asked to give a shit about it.
so yeah, it shouldn't be surprising that an optional feature like HDR would be undercooked and basically ignored by many developers, they often just put it in so they can use it in PR material as a buzzword it seems
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bentanchorbolt
Banned
I am excite! Dolby Vision is a real treat.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Just switched over to a stand alone 4K player to get DV and the dynamic tone mapping is next level on some discs.
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JeloSWE
Member
Well, RDR2 has faux HDR, the games engine basically out puts for SRD and then converts the limited dynamic range of SDR into fake HDR. So no wonder it looks like crap.
Magic Carpet
Member
TV industry need to have more Geneva Conventions to make their stuff less Plug and Pray and more hey it just works.
I have given up completely on getting PC HDR to work.
Consoles seem to do much better.
I have given up completely on getting PC HDR to work.
Consoles seem to do much better.
JeloSWE
Member
My PC HDR works really well and looks great, I use my very capable TV as monitor. Only thing to keep in mind is whether to enable the HDR in Display Settings before launching a game or if the game can activate it by it self. And as long as you use it with a really capable display, there are almost no monitors that does HDR a service, but if you are on a TV, don't forget to calibrate the max brightness in game as well.
Other wise I can't tell why you are having problems with HDR on PC?
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bentanchorbolt
Banned
My only experience with DV is from what is streamed over Netflix. Would love to see a good 4k BluRay with DV.
Kuranghi
Member
This thread is giving me flashbacks to tweaking the calibration screens of RE2&3 Remake, I aged 10 years during those hours:
In this one I'm Patrick and Spongebob is my flatmate who didnt even go through it but I've aged him just by telling him what I did:
Life is short guys, don't spend it all calibrating brightness/HDR, just ask a collection of nerds to tell you the answer:
Or better still just throw your HDR TV out the window/into a lake and go back to a simpler time:
In this one I'm Patrick and Spongebob is my flatmate who didnt even go through it but I've aged him just by telling him what I did:
Life is short guys, don't spend it all calibrating brightness/HDR, just ask a collection of nerds to tell you the answer:
Or better still just throw your HDR TV out the window/into a lake and go back to a simpler time:
bentanchorbolt
Banned
HAHAThis thread is giving me flashbacks to tweaking the calibration screens of RE2&3 Remake, I aged 10 years during those hours:
In this one I'm Patrick and Spongebob is my flatmate who didnt even go through it but I've aged him just by telling him what I did:
Life is short guys, don't spend it all calibrating brightness/HDR, just ask a collection of nerds to tell you the answer:
Or better still just throw your HDR TV out the window/into a lake and go back to a simpler time:
Yeah I'm with you on this. I tweak each game if it needs it, but if it looks jacked up, I just turn the HDR off.
The real question is, why can't we enable/disable HDR on a per-game basis?
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
The C9 and CX (i think the b9 has it as well not sure) has the dynamic tone mapping for HDR which works better than I think people give it credit for considering its doing it on the fly, but DV simply does it better. You get the brighter overall picture with better highlights that just cant be matched.
Watched Power Rangers and I know people weren't super hot on the movie but that is one stunning 4K disc from start to finish. Great Atmos track as well.
Gonna give The LOTR Trilogy a watch next.
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bentanchorbolt
Banned
Even Digital Foundry has mentioned numerous games where the HDR tone mapping is simply broken.
Kuranghi
Member
On PS5? Fuck my life yes thats annoying.
I have to change it multiple times a day because I'm going between It Takes Two, The Pathless and Control right now and its pretty annoying because sometimes I start the game before I realise and some games don't react well to you changing it in real-time.
How can we signal boost it to Sony? Surely memes can help us:
Hinedorf
Banned
Very weird, have never found a single game with a problem in HDR thus far and my personal preference is to play them in HDR, like for NBA2k, HDR makes the game brighter and non HDR just makes the colors are little deeper but the differences are slight
Kuranghi
Member
What model are you using?
Shai-Tan
Banned
I don't use dynamic tone mapper because Vincent Teoh goes on a lot about how it is inaccurate, causes artifacts but some like dynamic picture mode so whatever. I just set hgig and hope games properly support eventually (and filmmaker mode for movies)
There's some weirdness in some lotr scenes (like in the Shire early) but HDR is pretty good overall