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[FUBARx89]

Sorry, that's not true. Israel has done everything the US asked it, and the US is the reason for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. If it let Israel blockade Gaza, no food, no fuel, no nothing, for 1 month, you'd see the people in Gaza revolt or even Hamas inner people do it because they have family who they don't wanna see starve.

It would've given Israel the leverage it needs to end the war and bring the hostages back.

The dire situation in Gaza is because of Hamas, stealing the free food and selling it back to Palestinians for crazy prices. The reason food trucks are stuck is because the UN and UNRAW have not set up any logistics to move it or defend it, not Israel blocking them. Even now, for no reason either to appease the US, Israel just opened two more lanes for food to enter.

Of course the aid workers was a big mistake, and it's very unfortunate that it happened. Israel is being pressured by the world on everything, while there's zero pressure on Hamas or Qatar. Zero. That's the difference that's very easy to ignore and why the war won't stop.

Very easy to sit on the sidelines of this and criticize.

I'm sorry what? How is it the USA's fault aid isn't getting in? The USA & Co are constantly having to ask for more aid to get in. It's pretty bad that the USA has had to air drop aid in aswell as start building a pier to get aid in into Gaza. The USA didn't close the checkpoints. The USA isn't the country withholding aid by only having small windows for it to be delivered, nor causing huge tailbacks of aid at crossings trying to get into the country from inspections (Which yes. I agree with the aid being inspected by Israel). The USA also couldn't abide collective punishment stopping aid, food, fuel, water etc getting in, cause, well, it's illegal under international law.

I don't know how much more pressure countries can put on Hamas. Countries have demand hostages to be freed etc. Leaders are sanctioned, Israel is being supplied with everything it needs to fight them and keep them pressured, but what else can you really do to pressure a terroist organisation?

I know it's an awful situation to be in, as you said I don't really have the right to judge and I couldn't imagine this happening to my own country, so Israel and her people do have my sympathy, but Israel does need to do better.

 

[EviLore]

Every data shows IDF has the highest standard of combat. If it didn't, I wouldn't need to read everyday on more fallen soldiers.

Strange you don't demand that of Hamas. Why is there zero pressure on Hamas to surrender? to release the hostages? The war would be over today if the world came together to cut their funding and tell them to surrender.

So the IDF is the most moral and highest standard of conduct military in the world, but also shrug and handwave when civilian aid workers are deliberately targeted and murdered.

The US should intervene to help flatten Gaza, but the US shouldn’t impose any standards on the IDF. But the IDF definitely has the highest standards.

 

[Smiggs]

Every data shows IDF has the highest standard of combat. If it didn't, I wouldn't need to read everyday on more fallen soldiers.

Strange you don't demand that of Hamas. Why is there zero pressure on Hamas to surrender? to release the hostages? The war would be over today if the world came together to cut their funding and tell them to surrender.

There is an important distinction here, though. Throughout history, we hold the good guys to a higher standard than we do terrorists or just general bad people. No one expected any of the Axis powers to do the right thing in regards to civilian causalities, but we did expect the Allies to go out of their way to be better than the enemy. Now of course the people on the right side of history have done some horrific things, and I'm not making any excuses for civilian travesties in war. But we still expect good people to be better than trash humans, like Hamas, who only want to see the world burn.

 

[ADiTAR]

There is an important distinction here, though. Throughout history, we hold the good guys to a higher standard than we do terrorists or just general bad people. No one expected any of the Axis powers to do the right thing in regards to civilian causalities, but we did expect the Allies to go out of their way to be better than the enemy. Now of course the people on the right side of history have done some horrific things, and I'm not making any excuses for civilian travesties in war. But we still expect good people to be better than trash humans, like Hamas, who only want to see the world burn.

We don't trash humans. I don't know where you got that from. Mistakes happen, but apparently they can't happen to the IDF during a 6 months period of war. When the allies planned and bombed the f out of Dresden and killed 25k people that was moral I guess.

So the IDF is the most moral and highest standard of conduct military in the world, but also shrug and handwave when civilian aid workers are deliberately targeted and murdered.

The US should intervene to help flatten Gaza, but the US shouldn’t impose any standards on the IDF. But the IDF definitely has the highest standards.

No one shrugged the incident off, the IDF apologized, Bibi apologized, the foreign minister, etc. There will be an investigation and the people who caused it will be dealt with. Unlike when the US bombed and killed 7 children during the Afghanistan withdraw.

If the US didn't intervene in how we planned this war, this was would have ended already, it's because we are held to such high standard and we try to reach it that this war continues with no real aim atm. The US is giving Israel military aid while holding it's other hand back. It was the one who ordered the food trucks to come in after only two weeks, and then fuel after 1 month. If Gaza was blocked off for 2 months, we would be in a diff place.

 

[Smiggs]

We don't trash humans. I don't know where you got that from. Mistakes happen, but apparently they can't happen to the IDF during a 6 months period of war. When the allies planned and bombed the f out of Dresden and killed 25k people that was moral I guess.

Sorry, I may not have been clear in what I wrote. I'm not saying the IDF trashes humans, I'm saying we expect the good guys to be better than the bad (trash) guys. Hamas are obviously the bad guys here, and no one expects them to do the right thing, ever.

 

[jason10mm]

There is an important distinction here, though. Throughout history, we hold the good guys to a higher standard than we do terrorists or just general bad people. No one expected any of the Axis powers to do the right thing in regards to civilian causalities, but we did expect the Allies to go out of their way to be better than the enemy. Now of course the people on the right side of history have done some horrific things, and I'm not making any excuses for civilian travesties in war. But we still expect good people to be better than trash humans, like Hamas, who only want to see the world burn.

That's not true AT ALL. Articles of war and expectations of conduct are only in place when both sides agree and adhere to them. When one side is NOT a signatory to a specific contract and they don't adhere (Hamas, for example) then there is no legal reason to abide by any standards yourself. The UN "world court" can bellyache all it likes but the truth is they cherry pick which conflict "is concerning" and the Israeli Gaza one is actually pretty small compared to many they just ignore. Why then, are they sooooo focused on Israel? Anti-semitism, plain and simple.

The US has drone strIked THOUSANDS of innocents, in countrys NOT in a declared war with the US, for DECADES. It should be a cold day in hell before any American gets their panties twisted over a couple of trucks inadvertently hit in a hot zone. This shit happens.

 

[Smiggs]

That's not true AT ALL. Articles of war and expectations of conduct areonky in place when both sides agree and adhere to them. Whem knew side is NOT a signatory to a specific contract and they don't adhere (Hamas, for example) then there is no legal reason to aoidecby any standards yourself. The UN "world court" can bellyache all it likes but the truth is they cherry pick which conflict "is concerning" and the Israeli Gaza one is actually pretty small compared to many they just ignore. Why then, are they sooooo focused on Israel? Anti-semitism, plain and simple.

The US has drone strIked THOUSANDS of innocents, in countrys NOT in a declared war with the US, for DECADES. It should be a cold day in hell before any American gets their panties twisted over a couple of trucks inadvertently hit in a hot zone. This shit happens.

I'm not talking about any specific example here, I just responded on why the general population doesn't hold Hamas to the same standard as we do Israel. It's because most people view Israel as the good guys, and therefore most people hold them to a higher standard. No one expects a group of terrorists to go out of their way to save innocent lives, in fact it's the opposite. People DO expect Israel to go out of their way to save innocents lives, though. And I truly believe they try to, even though mistakes such as this do happen.

Of course fucked up things happen in war, mistakes are made, and civilians die. But we EXPECT the good guys to try and mitigate that as best as possible. And yes, I'm very aware of the fucked up things America has done on it's "war on terror", and I'm not defending any of that. I'm not even really sure why you're jumping my ass over this when we seem to agree that Israel are the good guys, and Hamas are a bunch of terrorist scum that deserve nothing less than death.

 

[jason10mm]

I'm not talking about any specific example here, I just responded on why the general population doesn't hold Hamas to the same standard as we do Israel. It's because most people view Israel as the good guys, and therefore most people hold them to a higher standard. No one expects a group of terrorists to go out of their way to save innocent lives, in fact it's the opposite. People DO expect Israel to go out of their way to save innocents lives, though. And I truly believe they try to, even though mistakes such as this do happen.

Of course fucked up things happen in war, mistakes are made, and civilians die. But we EXPECT the good guys to try and mitigate that as best as possible. And yes, I'm very aware of the fucked up things America has done on it's "war on terror", and I'm not defending any of that. I'm not even really sure why you're jumping my ass over this when we seem to agree that Israel are the good guys, and Hamas are a bunch of terrorist scum that deserve nothing less than death.

Quite a few DON'T view Israel as the "good guys", they just want to handicap how they can act and take ANY tiny bit of news they can turn I to bad PR for Israel. Remember the "massive hospital strike"? Or the "acts on refugee convoy"? This single incident is just one where Israel legit fucked up, probably because hamas has done 'illegal' shit like riding around in vehicles marked with aid orgs before, which is why the drone pilots targeted them in the first place.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

The attack on the WCK volunteers wasn't just a "mistake" there was a clear flagrant disregard for Israels own "Rules of Engagement" and it is making me start to question just how much control Israeli authorities have over their army in Gaza. Now it is true that two colonels have been dismissed because of it but I am starting to wonder how many other trigger happy colonels there are out there. I don't dispute that Israel has a difficult job and that the soldiers of the IDF have been given a near impossible task to complete, However as others have said Israel is meant to be the "good guy" here. The good guys do not block aid (which Israel has been doing) and the good guys do not wipe their arse with their own rules of engagement leading to the deaths of 7 innocent people based solely on the reasoning of "well hama's have a habit of hijacking aid vehicles*.


This is not some "independant" aid organisation here. The WCK were working FULLY with the IDF, keeping IDF informed at every point and the fact this "mistake" happened says to me there is some serious failures in the way the IDF is behaving in Gaza if they are meant to be the good guys.

 

[ADiTAR]

The attack on the WCK volunteers wasn't just a "mistake" there was a clear flagrant disregard for Israels own "Rules of Engagement" and it is making me start to question just how much control Israeli authorities have over their army in Gaza. Now it is true that two colonels have been dismissed because of it but I am starting to wonder how many other trigger happy colonels there are out there. I don't dispute that Israel has a difficult job and that the soldiers of the IDF have been given a near impossible task to complete, However as others have said Israel is meant to be the "good guy" here. The good guys do not block aid (which Israel has been doing) and the good guys do not wipe their arse with their own rules of engagement leading to the deaths of 7 innocent people based solely on the reasoning of "well hama's have a habit of hijacking aid vehicles*.


This is not some "independant" aid organisation here. The WCK were working FULLY with the IDF, keeping IDF informed at every point and the fact this "mistake" happened says to me there is some serious failures in the way the IDF is behaving in Gaza if they are meant to be the good guys.

Israel hasn't blocked aid to Gaza. Maybe protesters from the families of the hostages tried to stop trucks from entering.

Most aid sits there untouched or stolen.

 

[Smiggs]

Quite a few DON'T view Israel as the "good guys", they just want to handicap how they can act and take ANY tiny bit of news they can turn I to bad PR for Israel. Remember the "massive hospital strike"? Or the "acts on refugee convoy"? This single incident is just one where Israel legit fucked up, probably because hamas has done 'illegal' shit like riding around in vehicles marked with aid orgs before, which is why the drone pilots targeted them in the first place.

You're absolutely right, and I'm not those people. I've said numerous times in this thread Hamas needs to be eliminated and Israel has every right to defend itself. I was literally just speaking on why a lot of people hold Israel, who is a legitimate and sovereign nation, to a higher standard than they a bona fide terrorist organization like Hamas. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

and yet today the headlines are "Israel unblocks aid into Gaza". So you know it kinda looks like Israel were blocking aid. As for the aid "just sitting there untouched" might I suggest the IDF stop killing aid workers on the mere pretense that "hama's might be there". I get it ADiTAR you think Israel can do no wrong and I appreciate the tough task that Israel has to take out Hama's. However the way things are going Israel is starting to look "less like the good guy" and more like a "rogue nation". Anyway I am gonna shut up now, just really pissed off they attacked guys from the fucking World Central Kitchen one of the last decent fucking charities left that did fantastic work in Ukraine and did fantastic work helping the victims of the 7th October attack.

 

[FireFly]

That's not true AT ALL. Articles of war and expectations of conduct are only in place when both sides agree and adhere to them. When one side is NOT a signatory to a specific contract and they don't adhere (Hamas, for example) then there is no legal reason to abide by any standards yourself.

"The Geneva Conventions emphasize in common Article 1 that the High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and ensure respect for the Conventions “in all circumstances”.[1] The rules in common Article 3 must also be observed “in all circumstances”.[2] General recognition that respect for treaties of a “humanitarian nature” cannot be dependent on respect by other States parties is found in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.[3]"

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule140

Moreover, if restrictions on conduct in wartime are founded on moral principles, we would expect these principles to apply whether or not the other party complies with them.

 

[FUBARx89]

and yet today the headlines are "Israel unblocks aid into Gaza". So you know it kinda looks like Israel were blocking aid. As for the aid "just sitting there untouched" might I suggest the IDF stop killing aid workers on the mere pretense that "hama's might be there". I get it ADiTAR you think Israel can do no wrong and I appreciate the tough task that Israel has to take out Hama's. However the way things are going Israel is starting to look "less like the good guy" and more like a "rogue nation". Anyway I am gonna shut up now, just really pissed off they attacked guys from the fucking World Central Kitchen one of the last decent fucking charities left that did fantastic work in Ukraine and did fantastic work helping the victims of the 7th October attack.

To be fair to ADiTAR. He is in Israel. I can empathise with him being angry etc, because it was a large scale terrorist attack performed against Israel. I'm sure the average citizen in the States was just as angry and had a "fuck everyone" mentality as he does, after 9/11. So it is understandable.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Have higher standards of conduct.

With all due respect, the IDF is and has consistently been the most ethical and moral army in the world, doing things that no other country would even consider. Like for example sending over 6000 phone calls to Gazans warning them to leave before a bombing, flying over millions of flyers and dropping them down into Gaza with the same message, hell there's even IDF footage of them canceling a strike on a high ranking Hamas terrorist because there was a child in the street next to the target.

Show me any other country in the world that does that. No country in the world abides by those insanely high standards. So the IDF made a big error with what happened, contrast that with the history of IDFs rules of conduct in its wars over the years and quite simply there's no room for argument.

The world puts these crazy high standards onto the IDF with one hand, while with the error never dreaming of adhering to those same standards. It's utterly hypocritical.

 

[ADiTAR]

and yet today the headlines are "Israel unblocks aid into Gaza". So you know it kinda looks like Israel were blocking aid. As for the aid "just sitting there untouched" might I suggest the IDF stop killing aid workers on the mere pretense that "hama's might be there". I get it ADiTAR you think Israel can do no wrong and I appreciate the tough task that Israel has to take out Hama's. However the way things are going Israel is starting to look "less like the good guy" and more like a "rogue nation". Anyway I am gonna shut up now, just really pissed off they attacked guys from the fucking World Central Kitchen one of the last decent fucking charities left that did fantastic work in Ukraine and did fantastic work helping the victims of the 7th October attack.

Ah yes, because we keep killing them everyday. Jesus, it's like we're not allowed any mistakes. 6 months, how many mistakes have we made?

 

[darkangel-212559]

Also I'm in Israel too. America intervening is making this war go longer. If it were upto me I would have laid a total siege of Gaza Oct 8th and then proceeded to carpet bomb the hell out of it. Done. We have hostages though so that makes things much more complicated, but we as a country rely too much on America and it's hurting us in the long run.

 

[EviLore]

Also I'm in Israel too. America intervening is making this war go longer. If it were upto me I would have laid a total siege of Gaza Oct 8th and then proceeded to carpet bomb the hell out of it. Done. We have hostages though so that makes things much more complicated, but we as a country rely too much on America and it's hurting us in the long run.

Yes, a very moral solution indeed. Which is why America is making things more complicated for you guys.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Yes, a very moral solution indeed. Which is why America is making things more complicated for you guys.

What's more moral? Giving Hamas a huge amount of prisoners back so that in the future more terrorist attacks will take place and thereby enabling the future death of countless more innocent Israelis or wiping them out properly and getting rid of the Hamas machine that is Gaza itself?

Put it another way, the current head of Hamas in Gaza and the one who led October 7th is the same person we gave back to Hamas from prison after curing him from brain cancer with a life saving operation. Look where that has gotten us. So what precisely do you propose as a way to destroy Hamas and it's Gaza machine for good? Deals with them excluded.

 

[darkangel-212559]

If you let evil live, evil will continue. The only way is destroying it utterly and from its root. Pull out the root, destroy its branches and save lives. Or water that root until it turns into a massive out of control tree with many other roots turning into a huge forest, threatening to take out everything else in its entirety. We let Hamas turn into that forest, and now we have to burn it to the ground for good. The opposite of morality is to let evil live.

 

[EviLore]

What's more moral? Giving Hamas a huge amount of prisoners back so that in the future more terrorist attacks will take place and thereby enabling the future death of countless more innocent Israelis or wiping them out properly and getting rid of the Hamas machine that is Gaza itself?

Put it another way, the current head of Hamas in Gaza and the one who led October 7th is the same person we gave back to Hamas from prison after curing him from brain cancer with a life saving operation. Look where that has gotten us. So what precisely do you propose as a way to destroy Hamas and it's Gaza machine for good? Deals with them excluded.

Something other than genocide, for starters. You’ve gone off the deep end.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Also I'm in Israel too. America intervening is making this war go longer. If it were upto me I would have laid a total siege of Gaza Oct 8th and then proceeded to carpet bomb the hell out of it. Done. We have hostages though so that makes things much more complicated, but we as a country rely too much on America and it's hurting us in the long run.

Hamas deserves to be eradicated, but doing so must not come at the cost of your humanity. Targeted Strikes, assassination of its leaders, seizing their weapons and supply lines (referring to weapons, ammunition, etc).

Carpet bombing wide swaths of innocents is exactly what the antisemites accuse Israel and the Jewish community of doing already. Don’t feed into that hateful view.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Something other than genocide, for starters. You’ve gone off the deep end.

Please provide us proof that what we are doing is genocide according to its definition. Because the last time I saw we moved all the Gaza civilians away into a space of Gaza without the fighting, not to mention literally warning all of them to get out of the way of any fighting. If it was genocide, that would have never happened.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Please provide us proof that what we are doing is genocide according to its definition. Because the last time I saw we moved all the Gaza civilians away into a space of Gaza without the fighting, not to mention literally warning all of them to get out of the way of any fighting. If it was genocide, that would have never happened.

You were actively suggesting that Israel should have just started carpet bombing Gaza indiscriminately. That would be genocide. Which is exactly why Israel didn’t do that and actively tried to prevent as much civilian losses as they could.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Hamas deserves to be eradicated, but doing so must not come at the cost of your humanity. Targeted Strikes, assassination of its leaders, seizing their weapons and supply lines (referring to weapons, ammunition, etc).

Carpet bombing wide swaths of innocents is exactly what the antisemites accuse Israel and the Jewish community of doing already. Don’t feed into that hateful view.

Great, we've tried all that in the past. You where that led us? October 7th. Show me a way other than getting rid of them totally that will work. Because history has proven that what you suggest hasn't worked.

 

[darkangel-212559]

Something other than genocide, for starters. You’ve gone off the deep end.

You know knowing that Hamas literally burned babies alive in ovens will get you really really pissed off.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Great, we've tried all that in the past. You where that led us? October 7th. Show me a way other than getting rid of them totally that will work. Because history has proven that what you suggest hasn't worked.

There were large scale operations to eradicate Hamas before Oct 7th? I doubt that. Maybe a handful of covert operations, but by and large there was still push of a two state solution.

No one is suggesting anything other than Hamas needing to be removed permanently. Pushing for literal genocidal actions, the very thing Israel has continued to try and not go near, is not the way.

You know knowing that Hamas literally burned babies alive in ovens will get you really really pissed off.

You don’t fight monsters by becoming a monster yourself.

 

[EviLore]

Yeah, we don’t call for genocide at the adults’ table.

 

[bigedole]

Something other than genocide, for starters. You’ve gone off the deep end.

Pretty disappointed to see you refer to this as a genocide on Israel's part.

 

[EviLore]

Pretty disappointed to see you refer to this as a genocide on Israel's part.

He called for laying siege to Gaza and carpet bombing it until no one was left alive.

 

[bigedole]

He called for laying siege to Gaza and carpet bombing it until no one was left alive.

I guess I missed that part. Sorry.

 

[Ozriel]

Sorry, that's not true. Israel has done everything the US asked it, and the US is the reason for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. If it let Israel blockade Gaza, no food, no fuel, no nothing, for 1 month, you'd see the people in Gaza revolt or even Hamas inner people do it because they have family who they don't wanna see starve.

It would've given Israel the leverage it needs to end the war and bring the hostages back.

The dire situation in Gaza is because of Hamas, stealing the free food and selling it back to Palestinians for crazy prices. The reason food trucks are stuck is because the UN and UNRAW have not set up any logistics to move it or defend it, not Israel blocking them. Even now, for no reason either to appease the US, Israel just opened two more lanes for food to enter.

Of course the aid workers was a big mistake, and it's very unfortunate that it happened. Israel is being pressured by the world on everything, while there's zero pressure on Hamas or Qatar. Zero. That's the difference that's very easy to ignore and why the war won't stop.

Look, I empathize with and stand with Israel. I know they’re surrounded by hostile, unreasoning nations and Hamas are terrorist scum.

But this post is just…all over the place. Blaming the US for Israel not sealing off Gaza and setting up famine conditions in the strip in a vain attempt to cause revolt…that doesn’t just work. Have you seen any major shift in perception for Hamas in Gaza? Any revolt, after a significant bombing campaign?

Claims that the U.S. has been interfering and unduly restraining the IDF are certainly not reflecting reality at all. Military aid hasn’t stopped. Until recently, the U.S. wasn’t making any public condemnation at all, and were blocking UN Sec council attempts to push resolutions condemning Israel. I’m not sure I can think of any operation the IDF has wanted to do that they’ve been unable to execute.

Even when Netanyahu insists on the Rafah raid, US still sent the most recent weapons tranche, including a hard commitment for more F-35 jets.

Imagine how this must look to people who also follow the Russia-Ukraine war where there’s certainly clear evidence that slow and stalled US support has been devastating for the Ukrainians.

 

[Clear]

The way this convo has gone makes me think of the end of Watchmen, when Ozy asks Dr Manhattan for a sort of moral absolution for achieving peace through mass murder as it "worked out in the end."

His reply is what we should never forget when taking swords to Gordian knots.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Take a step back consider your position, if it is 'starve 2 million people until they submit' you're not helping your cause. Except it you wanted to confirm Israel is a genocidal state.

 

[ADiTAR]

Take a step back consider your position, if it is 'starve 2 million people until they submit' you're not helping your cause. Except it you wanted to confirm Israel is a genocidal state.

of course it sounds awful. but if it would've ended the war earlier, wouldn't that be better?

I'll also add, what if the world didn't demand Israel enter food and fuel, what if the world actually showed full support for that. Then perception was that Hamas has no choice. Hamas has now rejected every ceasefire deal on the table, even 1 to 40 ratio of its terrorists, it knows the world will force Israel to stop.

 

[EviLore]

It’s not the healthy fighting age adult males who die when you run a starvation campaign on the entire population. It’s the elderly, the children, babies, and the infirm. It’s a very ugly outcome. And it’s hardly a magic bullet to end the war against those same healthy fighting age adult males who hold all the power in their society.

 

[AJUMP23]

Dr Phil laying out facts.

 

[ADiTAR]

It’s not the healthy fighting age adult males who die when you run a starvation campaign on the entire population. It’s the elderly, the children, babies, and the infirm. It’s a very ugly outcome. And it’s hardly a magic bullet to end the war against those same healthy fighting age adult males who hold all the power in their society.

Those healthy adult aged males have relatives, the elderly, the children, etc. If they don't care about their people, I don't understand the hypocrisy of asking us to.

At the end of the day, it seems like Israel is in a shitty situation going shittier by the minute, with world leaders making the case for Hamas to stay in power. Israel now needs to decide if it really wants to end this. Going into Rafah is the only way to do that.

One mistake in 6 months, shouldn't make you a non-believer in the cause. Not to mention those in charge of it were let go, and others reprimanded. The previous mistake killed our own hostages. This is a very problematic situation and the standards are not even.

 

[EviLore]

Those healthy adult aged males have relatives, the elderly, the children, etc. If they don't care about their people, I don't understand the hypocrisy of asking us to.

That’s the second most deeply immoral position taken in this thread so far, from the other person claiming to have the most moral military force in the world.

 

[ADiTAR]

That’s the second most deeply immoral position taken in this thread so far, from the other person claiming to have the most moral military force in the world.

I don't think you can supply any facts regarding IDFs morality compared to other armies. It is the most moral. Ignoring the environment you're living in is nice when you're in comfortable at home in the US.

Kinda hard when you're actually living this day in and out, seeing the world hate you for defending yourself. And that's exactly what we're doing. So sorry we don't just roll over and die.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Dude you have been advocating the forced starvation of 2 million people. That is not "defending yourself" that is sheer barbarism. Honestly can you not see why some might have a weeeeeeeeee bit of a problem with your solution to this issue being the starvation of 2 million people ?

 

[ADiTAR]

Dude you have been advocating the forced starvation of 2 million people. That is not "defending yourself" that is sheer barbarism. Honestly can you not see why some might have a weeeeeeeeee bit of a problem with your solution to this issue being the starvation of 2 million people ?

It wouldn't have come to that. I'm advocating for a scare tactic.

Again, easy to say things when it's not as close to you.

If it was your family, your mother burned alive, your daughter raped, and your son kidnapped, I think you would've sung a diff tune.

 

[SoloCamo]

Those healthy adult aged males have relatives, the elderly, the children, etc. If they don't care about their people, I don't understand the hypocrisy of asking us to.

Careful, this is how people lose their humanity. I was angry after 9/11, I knew plenty of people affected and remember living not far away in NY getting pulled out of school, scared and angry during the event. Punishing and taking it out on those that are innocent and not there by choice will never improve anything, it will only embolden the terrorists cause. Your anger will fade however poor moral choices will haunt you.

 

[DeaDPo0L84]

This war is very complicated, not that any are necessarily easy to understand. My short take on it is what happened back in October was absolutely horrific and barbaric and Israel has every right to respond with the intent on eliminating Hamas in its entirety. It's the "how" where things get a bit muddy. Obviously the IDF has at a minimum a better moral standing when it comes to war and at least attempts to not have any civilian or friendly casualties. Hamas on the other hand just legit wants as much chaos as possible cause they know it will look bad for the IDF due to how the world is portraying the war, especially in the mainstream media.

 

[jason10mm]

"The Geneva Conventions emphasize in common Article 1 that the High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and ensure respect for the Conventions “in all circumstances”.[1] The rules in common Article 3 must also be observed “in all circumstances”.[2] General recognition that respect for treaties of a “humanitarian nature” cannot be dependent on respect by other States parties is found in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.[3]"

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule140

Moreover, if restrictions on conduct in wartime are founded on moral principles, we would expect these principles to apply whether or not the other party complies with them.

It's a bit more subtle than that. You are quoting a passage referring more to humanitarian aid, where I am discussing the convention directed towards Hamas.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gci-1949/article-2/commentary/1952

The ideal solution obviously would have been to require all Parties to a conflict to apply the Convention in every case, that is to say, even in relation to an opponent not party to the Convention. But the International Committee of the Red Cross could not shut its eyes to the fact that the signature of the Conventions rested with the Governments and, however bold one should be on an issue touching human lives, it was necessary to take certain practical considerations into account, if it was desired to embody such ideas in legal texts. Accordingly the Committee suggested to the Governments represented at the Diplomatic Conference of 1949 that the two following sentences should be added to Article 2:


[p.31] "In the event of an international conflict between one of the High Contracting Parties and a Power which is not bound by the present Convention, the Contracting Party shall apply the provisions thereof. This obligation shall stand unless, after a reasonable lapse of time, the Power not bound by the present Convention states its refusal to apply it, or in fact fails to apply it." (4)

Your bit would apply if, for some reason, the IDF decided, as a matter of POLICY, to SPECIFICALLY target aid groups for some sort of illegal attacks. The WCK strike was, by all accounts so far, an accident at best or negligence at worst, not a group effort to remove that aid org or indirectly cause suffering of non-combatant Gazans. This is clearly NOT a coordinated effort to go after humanitarian aid groups.

The larger question about whether or not ANY Genevan convention continues to apply to Hamas specifically, or the Gazan people in general, given their overall behavior towards hostages, etc, is much more murky since it depends on if you think Hamas is a state actor, the Gazan people in general are "all Hamas" or truly innocent bystanders, and if they are a separate state AT ALL, or really this is sort of an internal Israeli civil war. Hamas clearly violates any and all international law of war on a regular basis, in no way could they be construed as adhering to the Geneva convention in any way. The IDF on the other hand obviously WANTS to adhere to them, at great personal cost, as they are the ones being judged for moral activity in a way that is not being equally applied.

 

[near]

I think those who advocate for any form of genocide genuinely don't care about the hostages, let alone remotely value human life. Really disappointed that darkangel-212559 lost he's cool, that was unexpected from him. He's normally quite level-headed.

I don't think you can supply any facts regarding IDFs morality compared to other armies. It is the most moral. Ignoring the environment you're living in is nice when you're in comfortable at home in the US.

Kinda hard when you're actually living this day in and out, seeing the world hate you for defending yourself. And that's exactly what we're doing. So sorry we don't just roll over and die.

A war may start ethical and moral, but the means always becomes unethical. I said this back in October (1, 2), the longer the war continues, eventually, Israel will be painted as the villain. I don't think we're even remotely there yet, and hopefully we don't get there, but the rhetoric has started. Where are the hostages? We aren't any closer to seeing them released. Even the relatives of the hostages are starting to protest against the government. Non-combatant aid workers dying by the hands of the IDF compounds an existing problem. Biden has changed he's tune, now calling for a ceasefire. Sounds like a vote of no confidence in the IDF and Netanyahu. Aditar I sympathize with your cause, I have from the start, but don't have blind faith in the IDF. We should hold them to a much higher standard.

 

[ADiTAR]

I think those who advocate for any form of genocide genuinely don't care about the hostages, let alone remotely value human life. Really disappointed that darkangel-212559 lost he's cool, that was unexpected from him. He's normally quite level-headed.


A war may start ethical and moral, but the means always becomes unethical. I said this back in October (1, 2), the longer the war continues, eventually, Israel will be painted as the villain. I don't think we're even remotely there yet, and hopefully we don't get there, but the rhetoric has started. Where are the hostages? We aren't any closer to seeing them released. Even the relatives of the hostages are starting to protest against the government. Non-combatant aid workers dying by the hands of the IDF compounds an existing problem. Biden has changed he's tune, now calling for a ceasefire. Sounds like a vote of no confidence in the IDF and Netanyahu. Aditar I sympathize with your cause, I have from the start, but don't have blind faith in the IDF. We should hold them to a much higher standard.

I don't get it, what is a higher standard? one mistake and that's it, that's where it falls? I guess no army has ever made mistakes. Those are unrealistic expectations.

Israel was painted as the villain for people from even before the war, and it's not really Israel, it's the Jews. Israel is an excuse as we see protests in synagogs and other Jewish places. It's just a shame those people have succeeded and now when an election is supposedly in the balance we see US changing its tune to demand Israel ceasefire, and nothing of Hamas. It's all politics, but for us it's life.

I think it's ok to lose your cool when you see what a terrorist group did to your people. If this happened to you and yours I doubt you'd keep a level head.

 

[ADiTAR]

I also need to say, people who don't live here don't understand how traumatizing this event was for all of us.

You grow up in a country that was build on the ashes of the Holocaust, saying never again. We will never let ourselves be weak. We built one of the strongest countries in the world in just 75years. Not just army wise, but tech, food, agriculture, science, etc.

We believed IDF is our defender, and we thought it was so good, we reduced the length of service, reduced the amount of people needed to run it, and so on.

Then you wake up to this slap in the face. I was supposed to celebrate a friend's bday. I had to run to my building's stairway every time an alarm went off, which was almost every hour that day. I had to tell people who kept Shabbat what was going on.

The bubble has burst, we let our guard down, we failed. This trauma will live on for a long long time. Losing faith in our number one institution. I can't explain how difficult that is to live with this failure, and it's been on going for 6 months. I still cry, not as much, but it happens. And we still have 132 people there, women, men, elderly, a toddler, and a baby.

 

[near]

I don't get it, what is a higher standard? one mistake and that's it, that's where it falls? I guess no army has ever made mistakes. Those are unrealistic expectations.

Israel was painted as the villain for people from even before the war, and it's not really Israel, it's the Jews. Israel is an excuse as we see protests in synagogs and other Jewish places. It's just a shame those people have succeeded and now when an election is supposedly in the balance we see US changing its tune to demand Israel ceasefire, and nothing of Hamas. It's all politics, but for us it's life.

I think it's ok to lose your cool when you see what a terrorist group did to your people. If this happened to you and yours I doubt you'd keep a level head.

You look at it as one mistake, I look at it as a grave and utter fuck-up. It also raises questions as to how many of those attempted targets are actually strategic. How rational are the IDF even being in their approach to this war? Are they even following orders any more? These sorts of incidents open up a can of worms. When innocent lives are killed, you cannot just call it a mistake, there needs to be some form of accountability and assessment. The IDF are not Hamas, they're not terrorists, this is the higher standard.

I agree, antisemitism has always existed. But that is not the point I'm making. When I say Israel will be painted as a villain, I mean in the sense that it will lose support from its current allies to help fight its cause. This is not a healthy long term strategy. There might be a political agenda, on Biden's part, that is possible. But certainly not without cause, and the IDF cannot be devoid of all responsibility.

"If this happened to you and yours I doubt you'd keep a level head." - come on, this is a rather unfair position to put me in, and discourages any form of discussion.

 

[FireFly]

It's a bit more subtle than that. You are quoting a passage referring more to humanitarian aid, where I am discussing the convention directed towards Hamas.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gci-1949/article-2/commentary/1952

The ideal solution obviously would have been to require all Parties to a conflict to apply the Convention in every case, that is to say, even in relation to an opponent not party to the Convention. But the International Committee of the Red Cross could not shut its eyes to the fact that the signature of the Conventions rested with the Governments and, however bold one should be on an issue touching human lives, it was necessary to take certain practical considerations into account, if it was desired to embody such ideas in legal texts. Accordingly the Committee suggested to the Governments represented at the Diplomatic Conference of 1949 that the two following sentences should be added to Article 2:


[p.31] "In the event of an international conflict between one of the High Contracting Parties and a Power which is not bound by the present Convention, the Contracting Party shall apply the provisions thereof. This obligation shall stand unless, after a reasonable lapse of time, the Power not bound by the present Convention states its refusal to apply it, or in fact fails to apply it." (4)

Your bit would apply if, for some reason, the IDF decided, as a matter of POLICY, to SPECIFICALLY target aid groups for some sort of illegal attacks. The WCK strike was, by all accounts so far, an accident at best or negligence at worst, not a group effort to remove that aid org or indirectly cause suffering of non-combatant Gazans. This is clearly NOT a coordinated effort to go after humanitarian aid groups.

The larger question about whether or not ANY Genevan convention continues to apply to Hamas specifically, or the Gazan people in general, given their overall behavior towards hostages, etc, is much more murky since it depends on if you think Hamas is a state actor, the Gazan people in general are "all Hamas" or truly innocent bystanders, and if they are a separate state AT ALL, or really this is sort of an internal Israeli civil war. Hamas clearly violates any and all international law of war on a regular basis, in no way could they be construed as adhering to the Geneva convention in any way. The IDF on the other hand obviously WANTS to adhere to them, at great personal cost, as they are the ones being judged for moral activity in a way that is not being equally applied.

That's from Article 2, not 3 of the convention though. As I see it, there are two possibilities:

1.) Hamas is considered an extension of a Palestine "state". Then as both Israel and Palestine have ratified 1949 Geneva Conventions, both parties are bound by Common Article 2, and therefore the remainder of the convention's articles governing the treatment of civilians, medical staff, and prisoners of war apply.
2.) Hamas is not considered to be a state actor. Then you're right, Article 2 does not apply. However Article 3, then comes in, which covers "armed conflict not of an international character". This states:

"To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention."

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gci-1949/article-3?activeTab=undefined

So I don't see how Israel can escape its obligations under the 1949 Geneva Convention, even if Hamas is failing to comply with them. Albeit that the obligations in Article 3 are significantly less demanding than those in the rest of the convention.

Edit: Some additional clarifications can be found here:

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciii-1949/article-3/commentary/2020#_Toc44265128

This explains that "violence to life and person" covers actions and omissions that harm non-combatants. So for example withholding food or vital medical care would be prohibited.