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[Blue Ninja]

Because they're the publisher that could do what they wanted. Activision also has MMO experience via Blizzard. They've also largely stepped out of the way re: content policy. We're not privy to the pitches back and forth between Bungie and various potential partners.

I rib MS a lot as well, but really, they were a publisher too. Publishers can do stuff you don't like, but they also allow you to do things you can't do on your own. If you want access to their money, connections, infrastructure and expertise, you have to make some tradeoffs. You want to do something creative, they need to ensure their investment. You want to make a game for your fans, they want to sell your game to people that don't know about you yet. Absolutely nobody will give you a lot of money and just go "do whatever you want, we'll just write checks". That just doesn't happen. Ever.

And Bungie isn't interested in self publishing. Sadly, as I've posted elsewhere, the industry has many graves filled with companies that tried to be everything and spread themselves too thin, because they were too concerned over having a label of self-publish vs rational expectation. When you let the publisher do the publishing you get to focus on the developing. Same with their run under Microsoft. Hell, if Bungie had been self publishing, we wouldn't even have Bungie today. That's an absolute fact. They wouldn't have made it without Microsoft to weather their storms.

Ultimately, the Marty v Bungie is "bunch of people fighting over money and it got to a point that went public". It looks the situation is now resolved after some punches back and forth from both parties. I also expect certain people close to certain sides to feel very emotional and public over it; there is nothing wrong with that, because people get emotionally invested in their work and business.. Kind awkward for people friendly with people on both sides of the equation, but it tends to happen when you involve money in relationships.

I don't think anyone on any side of this finds this enjoyable, at any rate.

Well put. It's an unpleasant situation for all involved, I'm sure. I'd love to know how everything went down and how much of it had to do with Destiny development, though. Bungie became very open about Halo 2's troubled development in later years, I hope we'll see a similar situation here.

Only a few actually. Obviously the handsomest. But frankly Bungie retains staff at or better than the industry average. I'm not taking sides, merely clarifying that there's no brain drain of Bungie folks to 343 or anywhere else. And claiming I am handsome.

I'm fond of everyone involved.

I've always had the impression that Bungie managed to keep a lot of its employee's. Even as an outsider, seeing those videos in the Halo 3 Legendary Edition just painted the image of this studio with a lot of culture.

However, it seems to me that a lot of senior staff left the studio in the last few years.

 

[Apath]

Yeah, the first glimpse the public got of gameplay of Bungie's newest game since Halo was totally unimportant. Brilliant logic.

Yes, it sucks what happened. It's also just a trailer--something created to sell an audience on a product. It doesn't matter how much importance is placed on the trailer, his behavior was completely unprofessional and childish. As far as I am aware, they were not replacing his music in the game.

 

[OverHeat]

Only a few actually. Obviously the handsomest. But frankly Bungie retains staff at or better than the industry average. I'm not taking sides, merely clarifying that there's no brain drain of Bungie folks to 343 or anywhere else. And claiming I am handsome.

I'm fond of everyone involved.

Do you play Destiny what's your take on it? What do your old pals think off 343 spin on Halo. By the way I love both not trying to stir shit up.

 

[Truespeed]

It was reprehensible and unprofessional of Bungie to sue Marty over the control of his shares and Activision should have never had any creative say in the process whatsoever. But, Marty isn't free of criticism either as he seemed to turn into "that guy" you don't want to work with.

Meanwhile, O’Donnell argued that the audio work could not be completed until the game was in a bug-free, playable state. He felt the treatment was unfair but said he would continue to work. Members of the team complained that O’Donnell wasn’t contributing as expected, and his presence was frustrating the completion of the audio work. Ryan proposed to the Bungie board that O’Donnell be terminated.

 

[RE_Player]

Glad Marty won. Bungie has been a hot mess during this whole Destiny phase of the company and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[EGM1966]

O'Donnell appears to have been perfectly in the right. As petty as Bungie has been shown to be here, and with what other ex-employees are now saying, I have a hard time even believing their claims regarding his performance down the stretch. Besides, I've personally seen corporations use that play before (embellish or fabricate performance complaints, then attempt to strip the person of everything while terminating them).

I think the good guy won here, deservedly.

Oh I agree on the decision. I was referring to how they behaved, O'Donnel losing it due to poor treatment, etc. just an ugly situation from every angle.

 

[Gen X]

Absolutely nobody will give you a lot of money and just go "do whatever you want, we'll just write checks". That just doesn't happen. Ever.

There was one time this did happen and it was between Microsoft & Capcom on the OG Xbox with Steel Battalion. I believe the quote was along the lines of "If you can.make any game and money was no object" hence the ridiculous controller that came with it.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

For a trailer. Once again this is all about a trailer. Not the game, a trailer.



Yes publishers and marketing teams do control marketing and trailers.

Did Marty partly overreact due to this whole thing? Yes. That said, more people watch and experience trailers of games than people who actually end up buying and playing those games. When your part of the project comes down to the musical aspect, it isn't that unreasonable that Marty would get an extra bit of pride or satisfaction from seeing his music, that he put so much of his heart and soul into, debut alongside the first true trailer for the game.

The musical part of a game is already one of the most underappreciated, and overlooked, aspects of a game to begin with. Don't think that because there are so many who do appreciate the music in these games and go out of their way to listen to it on sites like youtube and elsewhere, or even go so far as to download this stuff to their phones or computers, that these people are in anyway representative of the majority. Often times the musical part of a game can be every bit as key to the success of the end product than anything else, especially in cases when gamers don't stop to appreciate that music. Music helps with the hype, it helps with the build up and anticipation of a game, and if Marty truly cared about how successful Destiny would go on to be then he would have every reason to raise a little hell over interference with the music that was used in the game's big E3 debut.

It was reprehensible and unprofessional of Bungie to sue Marty over the control of his shares and Activision should have never had any creative say in the process whatsoever. But, Marty isn't free of criticism either as he seemed to turn into "that guy" you don't want to work with.

But you know what? Did he really turn into "that guy," or is that just what Bungie were saying in an attempt to justify and cover for their actions? There was no way there was going to be a court battle and his previous employer didn't somehow try to make him look as bad as possible in the process. They had to if they didn't want him getting an ounce of what they tried to take from him in the first place. Then again it's also possible that they could be telling the truth. One way or the other for the work that he has put into their games over the years, and with the incredible quality of that work, I find it very difficult to believe that he would suddenly have zero desire to see the best come of any project he works on, and that he would suddenly abandon the team in their time of need as it pertained to getting the job done. Maybe he felt so frustrated and angry that he couldn't operate at his full capacity and was lacking in some passion towards the project due to the circumstances, but Bungie did basically try to screw the guy over.

 

[TheYanger]

Because they're the publisher that could do what they wanted. Activision also has MMO experience via Blizzard.

Activision doesn't have shit for MMO experience, Blizzard does. Activition just sees the quarterly reports and focuses on their own side of the business.

 

[BokehKing]

Activision doesn't have shit for MMO experience, Blizzard does. Activition just sees the quarterly reports and focuses on their own side of the business.

You sure about that? You don't become Activision Blizzard and not get involved at all with the whole 'how does this work' aspect of it.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

You sure about that? You don't become Activision Blizzard and not get involved at all with the whole 'how does this work' aspect of it.

Yea, it may be a bit much to say they literally learned nothing or gained no knowledge or experience from the business relationship.

 

[Kalentan]

Goddamn. The fuck is going on at Bungie?!

Probably nothing like this now. It seems like this all went down around when Marty left and things have been as usual from since then.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Probably nothing like this now. It seems like this all went down around when Marty left and things have been as usual from since then.

Until the next Destiny is announced as a trading card game. Personally, I hope the second Destiny ends up being every bit the game the first one wasn't. I hope it takes everything they learned about the gameplay, the rpg elements, how best to bring that all together with cooperative play, and then deliver on top of it a proper epic story with major cutscene events the likes of which you would expect from something like Halo or Mass Effect. That's what I expected from Destiny.

With the amount of money apparently being pumped into this franchise it shouldn't be that difficult to achieve this, especially with the first game now as a foundation. I just think the development of the first game was just all kinds of problematic, perhaps due to the sheer ambition of the game, or maybe due to other reasons, but I really hope they nail it in the follow up. Some people like what Destiny is, but I think everyone knows it was meant to be so much more.

 

[Mass Appeal]

Glad Marty won. Bungie has been a hot mess during this whole Destiny phase of the company and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

They aren't really a hot mess anymore though. After the dark below dlc, Bungie has made great decisions with Destiny and are basically changing the game with TTK.


Bungie also is not really as hated as GAF makes them out to be. Destiny has been a huge success for them and it looks like it will keep continuing with TTK.

I personally think 343i is in the bigger mess with the crap MCC product that was put out and still doesn't work right. Who knows how Halo 5 will work... I personally don't have much fate in 343i.

 

[Steverulez]

I personally think 343i is in the bigger mess with the crap MCC product that was put out and still doesn't work right. Who knows how Halo 5 will work... I personally don't have much fate in 343i.

We've already played Halo 5 and it worked fine (beta a year from launch is not going to be perfect), making a whole new game vs squashing together a collection is a very different prospect and whilst it was an incredibly poor situation to release it like they did, I doubt Halo 5 will have the same situation at all.

Also as a Halo fan, regardless of whether are 343 are considered good for the franchise I personally feel they are a better place for it than Bungie of 2015 are at least.

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

Absolutely nobody will give you a lot of money and just go "do whatever you want, we'll just write checks". That just doesn't happen. Ever.

If the rumors about Kojima's financial improprieties are true, then this is something that needs to be driven into people skulls. I'm not going to take sides, for Konami or Kojima, but the industry has always eschewed people who believed they had or could secure unlimited funding.

 

[Interficium]

Yea most of the original Bungie team is gone iirc. Bunch of them ended up at 343 industries.

If by a "bunch" you mean "less than 10, ever" then sure.

Funny thing is, Bungie has more ex-343i guys then 343i has ex-Bungie guys.

 

[StUnNeR H2K]

So does Bungie address this publicly or not?

Kind of convenient it happened over a holiday weekend. Probably think it will disappear by Tuesday, but I curious to see if it's still being talked about next week if they address it in the weekly update or separately.

 

[Mass Appeal]

We've already played Halo 5 and it worked fine (beta a year from launch is not going to be perfect), making a whole new game vs squashing together a collection is a very different prospect and whilst it was an incredibly poor situation to release it like they did, I doubt Halo 5 will have the same situation at all.

Also as a Halo fan, regardless of whether are 343 are considered good for the franchise I personally feel they are a better place for it than Bungie of 2015 are at least.

I will never forgive 343i for ruining MCC. it was their fault along with MS to push out a unfinished product when it was no where close to releasing. It was very unprofessional and something that is still not full fixed. I don't personally care how many teams or whatever worked on it. You don't dump of a great collaboration like that to other smaller companies. Me being a huge Halo fan I was extremely disappointing like most of the people who purchased MCC day one. I pray halo 5 works and yes it had a beta so that will help but we will see.

Let's not act like Bungie didn't lay down the foundation for Halo and where 343i are at right now. I played CE- Reach with over thousands of hours and IMO halo died with them. Halo 4 wasn't that good and the games population died pretty fast.

Bungie is in a fine place right now. Yah they made mistakes with Destiny but that's what happens when you create a new IP and don't fully have a vision. It's a game type that is new for them. Their new IP is selling well and this new TTK expansion looks like it will be very good.

 

[gatti-man]

Did Marty partly overreact due to this whole thing? Yes. That said, more people watch and experience trailers of games than people who actually end up buying and playing those games. When your part of the project comes down to the musical aspect, it isn't that unreasonable that Marty would get an extra bit of pride or satisfaction from seeing his music, that he put so much of his heart and soul into, debut alongside the first true trailer for the game.

The musical part of a game is already one of the most underappreciated, and overlooked, aspects of a game to begin with. Don't think that because there are so many who do appreciate the music in these games and go out of their way to listen to it on sites like youtube and elsewhere, or even go so far as to download this stuff to their phones or computers, that these people are in anyway representative of the majority. Often times the musical part of a game can be every bit as key to the success of the end product than anything else, especially in cases when gamers don't stop to appreciate that music. Music helps with the hype, it helps with the build up and anticipation of a game, and if Marty truly cared about how successful Destiny would go on to be then he would have every reason to raise a little hell over interference with the music that was used in the game's big E3 debut.



But you know what? Did he really turn into "that guy," or is that just what Bungie were saying in an attempt to justify and cover for their actions? There was no way there was going to be a court battle and his previous employer didn't somehow try to make him look as bad as possible in the process. They had to if they didn't want him getting an ounce of what they tried to take from him in the first place. Then again it's also possible that they could be telling the truth. One way or the other for the work that he has put into their games over the years, and with the incredible quality of that work, I find it very difficult to believe that he would suddenly have zero desire to see the best come of any project he works on, and that he would suddenly abandon the team in their time of need as it pertained to getting the job done. Maybe he felt so frustrated and angry that he couldn't operate at his full capacity and was lacking in some passion towards the project due to the circumstances, but Bungie did basically try to screw the guy over.

Honestly the music has very very little with my enjoyment of the game. I leave it on mute because I can hear the game much better that way. For single player sure but this game stops being single player early in.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Honestly the music has very very little with my enjoyment of the game. I leave it on mute because I can hear the game much better that way. For single player sure but this game stops being single player early in.

I think a lot of people don't appreciate just how important the music is until it isn't there. It can take an already great game and make it even better. The music can be totally forgettable, but other times it can literally make or break certain moments in a game and elevate them to entirely new heights.


Halo 4's amazing epilogue.

https://youtu.be/Sz_9aLrrWuE?t=4m10s

and the awesome prologue. (ignore how out of sync this video is for the voice acting, but it gets the message across about the importance of music.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpQMEfiLS4A

There's also the musical build up as the chief was entering the longsword and chasing after the didact after he used the composer on that research facility.

 

[Apath]

Did Marty partly overreact due to this whole thing? Yes. That said, more people watch and experience trailers of games than people who actually end up buying and playing those games. When your part of the project comes down to the musical aspect, it isn't that unreasonable that Marty would get an extra bit of pride or satisfaction from seeing his music, that he put so much of his heart and soul into, debut alongside the first true trailer for the game.

Halo 3 used Chopin's Raindrop for the commercial, which was the mass market's first exposure to the game. So I guess the vast majority of people associated Halo 3 with that song more than any of Marty's, yet that didn't seem to be an issue then.

Trailers first and foremost market the game. Activision had control over the marketing. It sucks for Marty that everyone didn't get to see gameplay and hear his music, but that is just the way it was. Countless artists put years into projects that get scrapped or have their work completely removed, and yet still manage to behave in a professional manner.

 

[Bornstellar]

Halo 3 used Chopin's Raindrop for the commercial, which was the mass market's first exposure to the game. So I guess the vast majority of people associated Halo 3 with that song more than any of Marty's, yet that didn't seem to be an issue then.

Trailers first and foremost market the game. Activision had control over the marketing. It sucks for Marty that everyone didn't get to see gameplay and hear his music, but that is just the way it was. Countless artists put years into projects that get scrapped or have their work completely removed, and yet still manage to behave in a professional manner.

Wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Ezd2FqxAU

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Ezd2FqxAU

Was just about to post this. There can be no doubt as to just how much the music helped make this trailer what it is. In fact, the impact is severely lessened without marty's work here.

And for the record, this was the first time I had ever seriously paid attention to Halo, this trailer. After seeing this trailer and hearing this music I began to read Halo: Fall of Reach wanting to make sure I was fully caught up on this entire universe. And it's once I got into the books that I finally started playing Halo CE, 2, and then finally 3. I haven't missed a mainline Halo title since.

 

[Cynar]

It's crazy how fast Bungie went from being a fan favorite to generally hated, reminds me of Bioware.

Very good and accurate comparison. All it takes is a bad game with bad word of mouth along with an overbearing publisher.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Very good and accurate comparison. All it takes is a bad game with bad word of mouth along with an overbearing publisher.

Bioware isn't anything close to hated, and as far as I'm concerned Bioware is still making amazing games. I pray to god people aren't calling any of the Mass Effect titles bad.

 

[Sirim]

Halo 3 used Chopin's Raindrop for the commercial, which was the mass market's first exposure to the game. So I guess the vast majority of people associated Halo 3 with that song more than any of Marty's, yet that didn't seem to be an issue then.

The vast majority of people in 2007 most definitely did not think of Chopin when thinking of Halo 3. Such a weird thing to say. Also, as others have pointed out, Halo 3's first reveal to the public was the very successful Finish The Fight trailer, and the accompanying score was very important for that trailer.

Love Chopin, though.

 

[rObit]

What a mess. Pretty safe to say it's more than black and white, neither party seems blameless. Probably for the best that things turned out the way they did. I'm interested to see what Destiny becomes going forward, and also interested to see what happens with Highwire Games.

Wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Ezd2FqxAU

Damn. This trailer was so damned perfect, I could not have been more hyped. And now I need to go play Halo 3 again.

 

[neoism]

lol GOOOOD LOVE Marty....

 

[Confounding Factor]

You know, I've always wondered just how well Bungie employees were compensated during the Halo 2 development. From what I recall, and this is over 10 years ago, it was brutal in order to meet that launch date. So no amount of compensation can cover how agonizing it was.

I believe it was Marty himself that said it was over the course of a few months before launch where they couldn't even see their families due to how strict the development schedule was. People pulling in insane amount of hours a week, folks sleeping under their desks, etc.

Seriously, maybe things have changed, but I would never work in game development. It sounds like soul sucking work. Then upon release, have ungrateful consumers blast your final product. Just ain't worth it.

If I was Marty, I would take the money and retire. Or just do what CliffyB did and take time off for awhile. I just don't see the rush to get back to work.

 

[neoism]

real shitty of bungie to not pay the man... real shame i see bungie OST not being all that great in the future... i dont really think that destiny's score was even close to his best.. but... its still ashame bungie has changed alot... ihave a love hate with destiny i love the pvp but the pve is fucking boring.. and coming from halo it just doesnt make sense...

but glad he won... he should sit on those shares until destiny is done... will make millions....


but fo real fucking activision.. smh... sucks bungie went with them...

 

[_woLf]

I seriously just can't help but wonder, were the heads of Bungie so naive to think none of this would happen when they signed up with Activision?

 

[gatti-man]

The vast majority of people in 2007 most definitely did not think of Chopin when thinking of Halo 3. Such a weird thing to say. Also, as others have pointed out, Halo 3's first reveal to the public was the very successful Finish The Fight trailer, and the accompanying score was very important for that trailer.

Love Chopin, though.

As a casual halo fan at the time I didn't car one iota for halos music more than I did any other game. The love for Marty is purely among the hardcore. Never in my entire life have I ever heard a fellow gamer comment about how amazing halos music was.

Not saying it can't be moving or important to some people but I think this thread far overstates the importance of it. Activision knows this and made a marketing choice.

To expand on this everyone calls Activision money grubbers and greedy right? So if Marty has such a huge following a soundtrack would be a no brainer! Think of all the easy sales! Except t wouldn't sell much because it's not a big deal to that many people and Activision knows this which is why they didn't bother to release it. It's a big deal to Marty sure but it isn't some major selling point or Activision, like everyone here claims they do, would have exploited it for cash.

 

[neoism]

How many years did Bungie sign on with Activision for?

10 years

rip in peace.....

 

[Apath]

The vast majority of people in 2007 most definitely did not think of Chopin when thinking of Halo 3. Such a weird thing to say. Also, as others have pointed out, Halo 3's first reveal to the public was the very successful Finish The Fight trailer, and the accompanying score was very important for that trailer.

Love Chopin, though.

The commercial for Halo 3 was a large miniature battle with Chopin playing over it. I was pointing out that with his logic, being that people see the trailer but not the game and do not get to associate Destiny* with Marty's music, people also would associate Halo 3 with its commercial music.

 

[JumPeRJumPzZ]

10 years

I really dont get Bungie. They were tired because of 10 Years of Halo. But now they signed another 10 year contract with Destiny...

 

[neoism]

Honestly, if i would have worked on Destiny and saw how it turned out, i also wouldnt have been very motivated either.
His music is a lot better than the game itself btw. Halo was completed with Martys music, Destiny is overshadowed by it.

Who is this Ryan (Harold Ryan) guy? To the public Bungies lead staff was Jason and Joe...at least to me.

same i always thought jones was the main dudebro at bungie... what is his title now wasn't he the director lead of destiny...

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I really dont get Bungie. They were tired because of 10 Years of Halo. But now they signed another 10 year contract with Destiny...

Yep, and they'll apparently be a whole lot more consumed with making and building Destiny than they likely ever were with Halo due to the style of game that it is. The expansions likely come with pretty decent content updates, and I can only imagine the work on true sequels.

 

[neoism]

Considering that Jason Jones estimated net worth has got to be north of $3b by now, this sounds like a huge pay day for Marty.

DAMN...@_@

 

[funkystudent]

I really dont get Bungie. They were tired because of 10 Years of Halo. But now they signed another 10 year contract with Destiny...

I think its more about independence and IP ownership. Make way more money that way. Epic probably made more money on Gears of War then Bungie did with Halo for example.

Plus working at MS seems to be a thing you love or hate and there was always stories about Bungie and MS butting heads during that time.


Would love to know the details about that split some day. One of the more interesting and out of nowhere gaming moments. Remember reading the rumours of it a few days before the announcement and pretty much everyone dismissed it as insane bullshit.

 

[neoism]

Blizzard is still pretty awesome, so eh...

I get the feeling Bungie would have gone to shit no matter what at this point. I'm glad I didn't buy Destiny.

yeah its weird i was really sad when activation bought them but its like they know better than to not fuck with blizzard.. with d3 still rockin it with just as much content three fucking years in and not charging shit.. other than one expack.
d3<3

 

[Apath]

Wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Ezd2FqxAU

Sorry, I clearly stated commercial, which was played on television.

 

[neoism]

so guys ive played destiny a good bit 300 hours or so soo did Marty do the music for destiny... like is it in that game... i haven't listened in a long time... as soon as the patch came out that let you mute it i did.. i always play my own music when i play destiny... the only time i don't is with new dlc...

 

[neoism]

You can tell this was written to accompany a story that never made it beyond the walls of Bungie.

wow this some good stuff..
soo whats goona go down with D2 will they use Marty's stuff or get a new guy...

 

[soldat7]

I pray to god people aren't calling any of the Mass Effect titles bad.

Um...well...about that, I hope you're sitting down....

 

[Troy]

Um...well...about that, I hope you're sitting down....

Some people not liking them doesn't make them bad games. They're in fact quite great.

 

[Apath]

Some people not liking them doesn't make them bad games. They're in fact quite great.

Plenty of people have called them bad. For some, the ending of three retroactively made ME1, ME2, and the rest of ME3 bad as well.

 

[VanquishUK]

So with all this legal stuff out of the way Marty can go back to work on Destiny, right? Right? :'(

Fuck that.

Microsoft, reemploy this man!

 

[Metfanant]

Whoever was in charge of the story "rewrite" is the person that should have been fired...

Good for Marty, talented guy, got what he deserved..Bungke made a serious mistake with the way they handled his departure..

 

[Sirim]

The commercial for Halo 3 was a large miniature battle with Chopin playing over it. I was pointing out that with his logic, being that people see the trailer but not the game and do not get to associate Destiny* with Marty's music, people also would associate Halo 3 with its commercial music.

Marty was upset about the initial reveal trailer not using his music. That's a big moment for a game.

Not just one of many commercials leading up to the actual release of the game. So I don't understand your comparison as its not the same situation. It's also Chopin we're talking about in a very specific kind of high concept commercial - I wouldn't be surprised if he had input on that, but obviously that's pure speculation. However, it seems quite different than if Microsoft were to have stepped in and specifically told Marty "none of your music for this, only Chopin."

It also reads as though it was more about the principle of the matter in terms of how Bungie operates as a creative studio, and less about that one specific trailer as an isolated incident. And for the record, Bungie agreed with Marty. They tried to veto Activision's music decision. Their veto was overruled by Activision.