Support NeoGAF

[Birdo]

This falls in line that the morbidly obese are more at risk of hospitalisation.

Get healthy, folks (If you aren't).

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Isn’t that strange. But what I’m really referring to are the anecdotal cases like the ones that keep getting posted here about “unvaccinated 20-something dying of covid”. I would think that since the media is cherry picking, they’d be desperate to find someone who had covid last fall, didn’t get the vaccine, and now has it again and is hospitalized. I’m sure there are a few cases. But I highly doubt they’re in the numbers we are seeing with vaccinated individuals.

Ah, good point. I'm sure there has to be some out there, but I haven't seen any definitive reports.

This falls in line that the morbidly obese are more at risk of hospitalisation.

Get healthy, folks (If you aren't).

Yeah, the virus does not appear to be kind to the obese at all. I would definitely recommend the vaccine to anyone who is extremely overweight and has no intention of losing it.

 

[jason10mm]

It is hard to prove prior exposure without antibody testing. Even a positive covid rna test doesn't mean the person had infection versus nasal contamination.

However I agree that prior infection is probably Very protective against all variants, provided you are not elderly or immunocompromised. The vaccines are great for stimulating a testable response but natural immunity ought to be as good or better.

We'll see. I know a few folks that were infected in the early wave and haven't been vaccinated. They have not caught delta yet, or at least been symptomatic.

 

[QSD]

It's not a private business right to restrict the liberties of citizens, even taking into account possible risks. I would be pretty surprised if there's even one legal framework worldwide (in a democratic country) in which you can frame such restrictions.

But lets into account your suggestion, one can easily construct other type of risks assessments that could lead to restrictions based on it. Would you also be comfortable that private businesses like nightclubs restrict citizens with criminal records? Recidivism is very well documented, backed by evidence and poses a tangible risk (and it's easily measurable). Where do we limit "private business feels"?

Finally, to impose such restrictions you would need a clear risk assessment, which right now is undefined as we still know very little about asymptomatic spreading (about this subject, WHO has updated their guidelines to advise against asymptomatic testing outside of health and nurse-homes personnel, https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/WHO-2019-nCoV-lab-testing-2021.1-eng), along clear risk targets (which would require knowing the health history of every single individual, namely their possible cross-immunization against Sars-cov2 ).

I do want to note one thing. I would love that we could have std-testing on nightclubs, last one I caught took 6 months to fucking clear. Even herpes alone would be very helpful.

This is kind of a weird argument. Basically, a nightclub can refuse entry to anyone they please. They can refuse you if they think you're too ugly, inappropriately dressed, or they can refuse you if you're a guy and there's already too many guys inside and not enough women (or vice versa). They might not be allowed to say that explicitly, but that's basically how it's always worked... I've never heard anyone cry discrimination about it before.

 

[12Goblins]

See, scientific evidence, lock downs are not worse than getting COVID or letting it spread, but I already knew this ..

Is the cure really worse than the disease? The health impacts of lockdowns during COVID-19 | BMJ Global Health

but you didn't though •́ ͜ʖ •̀)

 

[Chaplain]

"As more and more Americans become vaccinated, schools, employers, and health care facilities are facing a tough decision: Will they require students, employees, and care givers to get the jab? Those who say “yes” cite safety concerns – particularly when dealing with vulnerable populations – and call it a necessary step to return to normal. Those who say “no” argue these sorts of mandates violate individual rights, could expose recipients to potential dangers from the vaccines themselves, and set dangerous broader precedents when it comes to government overreach in public health. It is an especially timely question that pits health concerns up against ideals of personal liberty. And it has practical implications as societies emerge from lockdown. Having it out in the public square, Intelligence Squared host John Donvan presides over a spirited debate between Michael J. Anderson, a Wisconsin attorney who has represented employees resisting vaccine mandates, and Lawrence Gostin, a professor of law at Georgetown University, which is enforcing a vaccine mandate." (7/19/21)

 

[Birdo]

If unvaccinated people become a persecuted minority, that means we'll be protected by UK hate speech laws

 

[Chaplain]

Another COVID conspiracy becomes reality:

Yes, employers can legally require employees to be fully vaccinated with the caveat that they will have to provide a reasonable accommodation to those who cannot be vaccinated due to a disability or a sincerely held religious belief. In those circumstances, the employer is required under the law to engage in an interactive dialogue with the employee to determine if there is a reasonable accommodation that can be granted in lieu of full vaccination. As for a penalty, employers can adopt a mandatory vaccination policy and separate those who choose not to comply as long as those employers offer to reasonably accommodate employees who are not vaccinated because of a disability or sincerely held religious belief.

edited

 

[thefool]

This is kind of a weird argument. Basically, a nightclub can refuse entry to anyone they please. They can refuse you if they think you're too ugly, inappropriately dressed, or they can refuse you if you're a guy and there's already too many guys inside and not enough women (or vice versa). They might not be allowed to say that explicitly, but that's basically how it's always worked... I've never heard anyone cry discrimination about it before.

It would definitely be weird if we regulated ugly people can't party, but it's in line with the concept of private businesses being able to legally enforce whatever they feel like (they operate over general safety venue protocols btw, not targeting specific individuals). Being a nightclub is besides the point tho, that was the original example the other user brought up, you can extrapolate that reasoning for any sort of venue/event that ends up limiting your movement based on your private records.
This risk-based discussion as a limit of participation is not even new, we've had the very same arguments in favor of discrimination against aids-infected individuals for a very long time. It didn't hold up to scrutiny under the eyes of the law.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Another COVID conspiracy becomes reality:





edited

Hopefully it doesn't have to come to that.

 

[ManaByte]

Will California need a new mask mandate? Delta variant brings Newsom new challenges

Newsom did not directly answer a question during a news conference in Sonoma County when asked about the possibility of a statewide indoor mask mandate.

www.latimes.com

If he does this, he's out of a job in September.

 

[WoJ]

Another COVID conspiracy becomes reality:





edited

My employer just told us about an hour ago everyone is going to have to wear masks at work unless they provide proof of vaccination.

So not "requiring" it, but making life difficult if you don’t and forcing employees to provide medical information if they want to interact normally. Thankfully I am staying as a full time work at home employee.

I say this as someone who has been vaccinated for months and will happily get a booster if required.

 

[QSD]

It would definitely be weird if we regulated ugly people can't party, but it's in line with the concept of private businesses being able to legally enforce whatever they feel like (they operate over general safety venue protocols btw, not targeting specific individuals). Being a nightclub is besides the point tho, that was the original example the other user brought up, you can extrapolate that reasoning for any sort of venue/event that ends up limiting your movement based on your private records.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly... I mean there are dating sites for "beautiful people" where you can't become member if you're deemed too ugly. It's actually broadly common/accepted for people to discriminate on the basis of appearance, which is an immutable characteristic. Vaccination status is something you can control, I don't feel like refusing people on that basis is truly discriminatory in the same way.

 

[DeepBreath87]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly... I mean there are dating sites for "beautiful people" where you can't become member if you're deemed too ugly. It's actually broadly common/accepted for people to discriminate on the basis of appearance, which is an immutable characteristic. Vaccination status is something you can control, I don't feel like refusing people on that basis is truly discriminatory in the same way.

There is a pretty significant difference between a private business making its own decision about whether or not to allow unvaccinated people in, vs the government mandating that all of a given business discriminate based on vaccination status.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

My employer just told us about an hour ago everyone is going to have to wear masks at work unless they provide proof of vaccination.

So not "requiring" it, but making life difficult if you don’t and forcing employees to provide medical information if they want to interact normally. Thankfully I am staying as a full time work at home employee.

I say this as someone who has been vaccinated for months and will happily get a booster if required.

I'm glad that my employer is taking a "don't ask, don't tell" approach. Well, actually, just "don't ask." It's OK to tell.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Opinion | The Flimsy Evidence Behind the CDC’s Push to Vaccinate Children

The agency overcounts Covid hospitalizations and deaths and won’t consider if one shot is sufficient.

www.wsj.com

 

[Cyberpunkd]

There is a pretty significant difference between a private business making its own decision about whether or not to allow unvaccinated people in, vs the government mandating that all of a given business discriminate based on vaccination status.

That is already the case in many countries e.g. in France in order to apply and get childcare your infant needs to be vaccinated for multiple diseases, otherwise it needs to stay home. Childcare is not obligatory but kindergarten is, same rules apply. So in practice at the age of 3 your child needs to be vaccinated or you will face penalties and be prosecuted.

This was actually an argument for one of the supporters of obligatory vaccination - if we are forcing more than 11 vaccines on infants, what’s the logic behind not doing it for adults, who have also much better developed immune system to fight adverse effects?

 

[Loki]

The media/statist push for “mandatory vaccines” (whatever that means) is growing more fervent, with pro-mandate articles/commentary this week in the NYT, WaPo, and CNN. At this point these jack-booted thugs would need to literally bust down my door and hold me down to jab me with the vaccine - I don’t trust this whole thing one bit. It’s too incongruent a reaction to the actual level of threat at this point (note: at THIS point, not in March 2020). Something doesn’t smell right to me, and I will strongly resist any erosion of personal liberty and any expansion of governmental power which is predicated on a false narrative that COVID at this point constitutes some sort of existential threat to everyone such that we have to sign over our lives, or PUT SOMETHING IN OUR BODIES AGAINST OUR WILL, in order to protect a (relative) vulnerable few.

 

[Nobody_Important]

The media/statist push for “mandatory vaccines” (whatever that means) is growing more fervent, with pro-mandate articles/commentary this week in the NYT, WaPo, and CNN. At this point these jack-booted thugs would need to literally bust down my door and hold me down to jab me with the vaccine - I don’t trust this whole thing one bit. It’s too incongruent a reaction to the actual level of threat at this point (note: at THIS point, not in March 2020). Something doesn’t smell right to me, and I will strongly resist any erosion of personal liberty and any expansion of governmental power which is predicated on a false narrative that COVID at this point constitutes some sort of existential threat to everyone such that we have to sign over our lives, or PUT SOMETHING IN OUR BODIES AGAINST OUR WILL, in order to protect a (relative) vulnerable few.

What exactly "doesn't smell right" about it? Can you actually explain it?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

At this point these jack-booted thugs would need to literally bust down my door and hold me down to jab me with the vaccine

Here we go!!!

Spoiler

this is a comedy channel

 

[vpance]

Opinion | The Flimsy Evidence Behind the CDC’s Push to Vaccinate Children

The agency overcounts Covid hospitalizations and deaths and won’t consider if one shot is sufficient.

www.wsj.com

WSJ publishing this is probably stranger than seeing Wired do one. I guess off the front page opinion articles aren't a big deal.

 

[DeepBreath87]

That is already the case in many countries e.g. in France in order to apply and get childcare your infant needs to be vaccinated for multiple diseases, otherwise it needs to stay home. Childcare is not obligatory but kindergarten is, same rules apply. So in practice at the age of 3 your child needs to be vaccinated or you will face penalties and be prosecuted.

This was actually an argument for one of the supporters of obligatory vaccination - if we are forcing more than 11 vaccines on infants, what’s the logic behind not doing it for adults, who have also much better developed immune system to fight adverse effects?

There just is certainly a difference. Whatever side of the argument you fall on, the state mandating vaccination and forcing enforcement to fall on private businesses is completely different from the businesses doing it of their own accord.

I don’t really care about the covid vaccine. I got mine right away and I’m glad I did. I have concerns about the way this has been handled since the beginning of the pandemic. The lockdowns, the masks, the messaging, the economics, the vaccines, the science. It’s been a clusterfuck. I think the idea that there is some kind of nefarious, coordinated plan is ridiculous. But I can see where individual actors are trying to take advantage of circumstances and narratives.

It has made it hard to trust. And I know some people will say “just trust the authorities.” Well the authorities have fucked up. A lot. The whole time. And the vaccines seem great but what’s going on in Europe is concerning because it seems to clash with what we were told. So when they start telling people who are probably already skeptical to trust them about these shots, then they start telling them the shots are mandatory, that’s going to be a tough on some people. Calling them stupid or assholes does not help.

 

[Chaplain]

The media/statist push for “mandatory vaccines” (whatever that means) is growing more fervent, with pro-mandate articles/commentary this week in the NYT, WaPo, and CNN.

Seems that out of nowhere this narrative spreading on social media:



















edited

 

[vpance]

Seems that out of nowhere this is narrative is now spreading on social media:

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I don’t really care about the covid vaccine. I got mine right away and I’m glad I did. I have concerns about the way this has been handled since the beginning of the pandemic. The lockdowns, the masks, the messaging, the economics, the vaccines, the science. It’s been a clusterfuck. I think the idea that there is some kind of nefarious, coordinated plan is ridiculous. But I can see where individual actors are trying to take advantage of circumstances and narratives.

I agree with that, I think all governments fucked up and were extremely reactive instead of proactive. I also don't think there is any nefarious plan, at the beginning everyone was just really scared of what was happening, last time this happened was Spanish flu 100 years back.

 

[EverythingsOverrated]

The media/statist push for “mandatory vaccines” (whatever that means) is growing more fervent, with pro-mandate articles/commentary this week in the NYT, WaPo, and CNN. At this point these jack-booted thugs would need to literally bust down my door and hold me down to jab me with the vaccine - I don’t trust this whole thing one bit. It’s too incongruent a reaction to the actual level of threat at this point (note: at THIS point, not in March 2020). Something doesn’t smell right to me, and I will strongly resist any erosion of personal liberty and any expansion of governmental power which is predicated on a false narrative that COVID at this point constitutes some sort of existential threat to everyone such that we have to sign over our lives, or PUT SOMETHING IN OUR BODIES AGAINST OUR WILL, in order to protect a (relative) vulnerable few.

The weekly moving of the goal posts that's been happening over the last year and a half has been fascinating to watch. From "flatten the curve" to mandated vaccines.

Crazy times.

 

[QSD]

There just is certainly a difference. Whatever side of the argument you fall on, the state mandating vaccination and forcing enforcement to fall on private businesses is completely different from the businesses doing it of their own accord.

Mostly we've been in agreement but this is one where I disagree. Although in theory the difference is huge in theory, in practice the rules that 'private businesses' enforce can be as repressive as government enforced rules these days. The recent disagreements over tech companies come to mind. But also in my own line of work, a large part of psychiatric care in The Netherlands has been privatized. But it's not like people can actually choose which company provides care for them. There are huge waiting lists, so patients waiting for care simply get allocated to the first company that has a vacancy. I don't know whether in practice the difference between government and private business coercion is as sharp as you think.

I don’t really care about the covid vaccine. I got mine right away and I’m glad I did. I have concerns about the way this has been handled since the beginning of the pandemic. The lockdowns, the masks, the messaging, the economics, the vaccines, the science. It’s been a clusterfuck. I think the idea that there is some kind of nefarious, coordinated plan is ridiculous. But I can see where individual actors are trying to take advantage of circumstances and narratives.

It's pretty much this, a large contingent of unscrupulous individuals benefitting from a bad situation. I do believe that there are small groups that conspire to get ahead, but a global "plandemic" is an idea I also find hard to believe

It has made it hard to trust. And I know some people will say “just trust the authorities.” Well the authorities have fucked up. A lot. The whole time. And the vaccines seem great but what’s going on in Europe is concerning because it seems to clash with what we were told. So when they start telling people who are probably already skeptical to trust them about these shots, then they start telling them the shots are mandatory, that’s going to be a tough on some people. Calling them stupid or assholes does not help.

This is the thing that keeps getting re-hashed in this thread, pro-vax people keep repeating that the information we're getting about the safety of the vaccines is complete and trustworthy. Others keep repeating that the government and the medical profession have lied and fucked up a LOT in the past so that the trust they're getting is misplaced.

 

[BouncyFrag]

The weekly moving of the goal posts that's been happening over the last year and a half has been fascinating to watch. From "flatten the curve" to mandated vaccines.

Crazy times.

Vaccines also no longer need to prevent you from getting the virus too.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Mostly we've been in agreement but this is one where I disagree. Although in theory the difference is huge in theory, in practice the rules that 'private businesses' enforce can be as repressive as government enforced rules these days. The recent disagreements over tech companies come to mind. But also in my own line of work, a large part of psychiatric care in The Netherlands has been privatized. But it's not like people can actually choose which company provides care for them. There are huge waiting lists, so patients waiting for care simply get allocated to the first company that has a vacancy. I don't know whether in practice the difference between government and private business coercion is as sharp as you think.

It's pretty much this, a large contingent of unscrupulous individuals benefitting from a bad situation. I do believe that there are small groups that conspire to get ahead, but a global "plandemic" is an idea I also find hard to believe

This is the thing that keeps getting re-hashed in this thread, pro-vax people keep repeating that the information we're getting about the safety of the vaccines is complete and trustworthy. Others keep repeating that the government and the medical profession have lied and fucked up a LOT in the past so that the trust they're getting is misplaced.

I guess I just find the private business angle to be different than the Twitter/Facebook stuff. Social media companies operate as monopolies in terms of public space online. Nightclubs and restaurants have to compete in reality. The cost of verifying vaccination status and the limits it puts on customer population would cause businesses and patrons who want to segregate themselves to pay a premium. I don’t mind that, in theory.

 

[FunkMiller]

It's not a private business right to restrict the liberties of citizens, even taking into account possible risks. I would be pretty surprised if there's even one legal framework worldwide (in a democratic country) in which you can frame such restrictions.

Of course it is. Hallmark of a free capitalist society. Private business able to do commerce with whoever they damn well please… provided they do not break any laws.

It ain’t your liberty to demand entry into Starbucks

Shit, what do you want? A society where other organisation dictate how a private company conducts its lawful business?

You don’t get to demand the freedom to not have the vaccine, then whine when business leverages its freedom to deny you entry on a risk basis

No business in the western world will be in legal trouble if they state that they are barring unvaccinated customers so as not to put their other customers at risk. You might not like it, but that’s the way it is.

 

[Chaplain]

Useful links regarding "COVID-19 early treatment: real-time analysis of 747 studies"



Edited

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Shit, what do you want? A society where other organisation dictate how a private company conducts its lawful business?

That's what the situation looks like when the government is dictating how private businesses are to operate or else face legal penalties, how is this not plain as day?

 

[FunkMiller]

That's what the situation looks like when the government is dictating how private businesses are to operate or else face legal penalties, how is this not plain as day?

Because there are laws governing business. You said it yourself: legal penalties.

Refusing service to an individual who poses a risk to other customers is not illegal.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Refusing service to an individual who poses a risk to other customers is not illegal.

Except that it's just for COVID (for now). We don't do this for any other contagious disease and instead expect people to stay home when they have symptoms. You know, a sensible approach.

Furthermore, vaccines do not eliminate risk of spreading the disease to others. The degree to which they reduce spread seems to depend heavily on the variant and is yet to be clearly identified.

Finally, there's no way to easily tell if someone is infectious. Someone with a GO sign in their vaccine passport could be symptomatic and a super spreader, while someone without the vaccine could be completely free of the virus. As we're seeing time and time again, the vaccine is no guarantee, so what are they actually trying to accomplish with this requirement?

 

[FunkMiller]

Except that it's just for COVID (for now). We don't do this for any other contagious disease and instead expect people to stay home when they have symptoms. You know, a sensible approach.

Furthermore, vaccines do not eliminate risk of spreading the disease to others. The degree to which they reduce spread seems to depend heavily on the variant and is yet to be clearly identified.

Finally, there's no way to easily tell if someone is infectious. Someone with a GO sign in their vaccine passport could be symptomatic and a super spreader, while someone without the vaccine could be completely free of the virus. As we're seeing time and time again, the vaccine is no guarantee, so what are they actually trying to accomplish with this requirement?

Why have you started a conversation about vaccine efficacy? I’m talking about the right of businesses to refuse service to an unvaccinated individual.

You may think vaccinated people aren’t safer, but yours is a minority view. And legally, a business has the right to refuse service to individuals it deems a risk. Which, as stated, is quite right in a free capitalist society.

 

[TheContact]

This falls in line that the morbidly obese are more at risk of hospitalisation.

Get healthy, folks (If you aren't).

though it doesn’t exclude situations of young healthy and very fit people dying from covid or getting heart complications due to it. If people are weary of the vaccine then at least wear a kn95 indoors

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Why have you started a conversation about vaccine efficacy? I’m talking about the right of businesses to refuse service to an unvaccinated individual.

You may think vaccinated people aren’t safer, but yours is a minority view. And legally, a business has the right to refuse service to individuals it deems a risk. Which, as stated, is quite right in a free capitalist society.

Because you wrote "poses a risk." Surely the burden of establishing what that risk is should be on the person or group trying to put restrictions on people deemed a risk, no?

I think there is definitely some protective property to the various vaccines, but it clearly appears to differ quite a bit depending on the vaccine, and the absolute risk reduction provided by them seems to be changing by the week. To lump them all together and do a binary "vaccinated" vs. "not vaccinated" and claim that one group represents a greater risk than the other based solely on that is kind of ridiculous in my mind.

Anyway, sorry if I haven't been following the conversation, but I thought this was about the UK's government-mandated vaccination status for entry.

 

[12Goblins]

There just is certainly a difference. Whatever side of the argument you fall on, the state mandating vaccination and forcing enforcement to fall on private businesses is completely different from the businesses doing it of their own accord.

I don’t really care about the covid vaccine. I got mine right away and I’m glad I did. I have concerns about the way this has been handled since the beginning of the pandemic. The lockdowns, the masks, the messaging, the economics, the vaccines, the science. It’s been a clusterfuck. I think the idea that there is some kind of nefarious, coordinated plan is ridiculous. But I can see where individual actors are trying to take advantage of circumstances and narratives.

It has made it hard to trust. And I know some people will say “just trust the authorities.” Well the authorities have fucked up. A lot. The whole time. And the vaccines seem great but what’s going on in Europe is concerning because it seems to clash with what we were told. So when they start telling people who are probably already skeptical to trust them about these shots, then they start telling them the shots are mandatory, that’s going to be a tough on some people. Calling them stupid or assholes does not help.

if you've been paying attention to the right people from beginning, you probably wouldn't have developed all these trust issues. I think a lot of people duped themselves by watching their regular garbage media that presents them with the garbage "my truth" they want to hear, got completely blindsided, and coped with their disillusionment by blaming whoever is their convenient villain (ie, trump for libs, Fauci for cons) when really only you are to blame for perpetually coming back to consume more of the garbage that mislead you in the first place. I'm sure conservatives would be super grateful if Fauci instructed all Americans to don masks at a time when we had no idea what we were dealing with and when everyone was quick to yell over one another to call this a political stunt. We forget, but at the time Sars2 could have just likely faded away, much like Sars1, and I would be hearing for the rest of my life from woke conservatives about how Fauci and friends lied to sway a political election (⇀‸↼╬

there are many examples, but say you had listened to what Osterholme was saying at the very beginning, like his very accessible JRE appearance, you could have gotten an INVALUABLE level-headed insight to build a foundation on what was about to play out. but nobody cared to listen. they just keep consuming bad info and blaming others for their failures.


using "you" generally here and not the user I quoted

 

[Deleted member 17706]

though it doesn’t exclude situations of young healthy and very fit people dying from covid or getting heart complications due to it. If people are weary of the vaccine then at least wear a kn95 indoors

Those situations are extraordinarily rare. The data is getting a bit old at this point, by as of May, around 80% of hospitalizations to COVID in the US were among the obese, and as of March, over 90% of worldwide COVID deaths came from countries with high obesity rates. Obesity, and obesity-related diseases like type II diabetes and hypertension are strongly correlated with massively increased risk of severe disease, hospitalization, and death from COVID-19. If you are old, fat, and diabetic, you're in trouble.

 

[12Goblins]

love this analysis

 

[thefool]

Of course it is. Hallmark of a free capitalist society. Private business able to do commerce with whoever they damn well please… provided they do not break any laws.

It ain’t your liberty to demand entry into Starbucks

Shit, what do you want? A society where other organisation dictate how a private company conducts its lawful business?

You don’t get to demand the freedom to not have the vaccine, then whine when business leverages its freedom to deny you entry on a risk basis

There's no way for a business to enforce citizens to share their private health data, unless mandated by law, which makes your "law-abiding discriminatory business" a somewhat unique concept. I really don't think "free capitalist society" was what you what in mind in your conjecture. I suppose you're an american who have accepted you don't have rights anymore?

 

[Chaplain]

love this analysis

Agreed. Weinstein is gifted at seeing through the looking-glass.

 

[QSD]

if you've been paying attention to the right people from beginning, you probably wouldn't have developed all these trust issues. I think a lot of people duped themselves by watching their regular garbage media that presents them with the garbage "my truth" they want to hear, got completely blindsided, and coped with their disillusionment by blaming whoever is their convenient villain (ie, trump for libs, Fauci for cons) when really only you are to blame for perpetually coming back to consume more of the garbage that mislead you in the first place. I'm sure conservatives would be super grateful if Fauci instructed all Americans to don masks at a time when we had no idea what we were dealing with and when everyone was quick to yell over one another to call this a political stunt. We forget, but at the time Sars2 could have just likely faded away, much like Sars1, and I would be hearing for the rest of my life from woke conservatives about how Fauci and friends lied to sway a political election (⇀‸↼╬

there are many examples, but say you had listened to what Osterholme was saying at the very beginning, like his very accessible JRE appearance, you could have gotten an INVALUABLE level-headed insight to build a foundation on what was about to play out. but nobody cared to listen. they just keep consuming bad info and blaming others for their failures.


using "you" generally here and not the user I quoted

I think the problem here is that you present your argument like it's obvious who the trustworthy people are, but as I perceive it there is no such clarity. Mainstream media tell their story backed by government and numbers. The alternative media provide narratives that sometimes directly contradict what the mainstream is saying. Rogan has recently hosted Bret Weinstein and co, but he's been under attack by a different wing of the alternative media (Claire Lehmann, Quilette) as a crank and a deliberate liar. It's extremely difficult for an outsider and layperson in the field of biology to figure out what's true. Most of the arguments in this thread revolve around (who to) trust. I don't think it's readily apparant to anyone who's got the truth. Most have just picked a 'side' and hold on to that.

Edit: I also recently posted a Bloggingheads video in this thread where Eric Weinstein gets dissected, based on his behaviour/communication around his theory of everything

 

[Hydelol]

And I am still sitting here wondering why I am treated like the devil when I never had covid, and never have been sick since the pandemic. Is it really that awful to be a healthy human being? Why am I punished for being NOT sick?

 

[Nobody_Important]

And I am still sitting here wondering why I am treated like the devil when I never had covid, and never have been sick since the pandemic. Is it really that awful to be a healthy human being? Why am I punished for being NOT sick?

Who is treating you "like the devil"? How are you being punished?

 

[Hydelol]

Who is treating you "like the devil"? How are you being punished?

Just read this thread? Companies that want to vaccinate me, want me to put a mask on. Businesses that won't let me into their buildings because I am not vaccinated. You even get better treated if you had the disease once. But if you stayed healthy or never knew you were in contact and just went on with your life? Nothing. Strange that nobody likes to talk about all those healthy people, that never became sick. We are just time bombs for you / them right?

Why are so many people intrigued by the idea of CONTROLLING everybody? Why can't everybody who feels sick stay at home, like we ALWAYS did? Why do you get a boner for controlling a person before letting them into a store? What is wrong with all of you for entertaining the idea of controlling people's lives?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Just read this thread? Companies that want to vaccinate me, want me to put a mask on. Businesses that won't let me into their buildings because I am not vaccinated. You even get better treated if you had the disease once. But if you stayed healthy or never knew you were in contact and just went on with your life? Nothing. Strange that nobody likes to talk about all those healthy people, that never became sick. We are just time bombs for you / them right?

Why are so many people intrigued by the idea of CONTROLLING everybody? Why can't everybody who feels sick stay at home, like we ALWAYS did? Why do you get a boner for controlling a person before letting them into a store? What is wrong with all of you for entertaining the idea of controlling people's lives?

So you see being asked to wear a mask for safety reasons as a punishment? That's ridiculous.


It has nothing to do with controlling anyone. We need to stop spreading the ridiculous notion that all of this is just some kind of power grab by companies or governments. You aren't being asked to wear a mask as a punishment. Nobody is trying to punish you.

 

[thefool]

So you see being asked to wear a mask for safety reasons as a punishment? That's ridiculous.


It has nothing to do with controlling anyone. We need to stop spreading the ridiculous notion that all of this is just some kind of power grab by companies or governments. You aren't being asked to wear a mask as a punishment. Nobody is trying to punish you.

My perception from this thread is that some american posters clearly support a certain authority in dealing with unvaccinated people that goes much beyond wearing a mask.
Pardon my hyperbole, but we're living in an era that normalizes obesity but looks at healthy individuals as a danger to society.

 

[12Goblins]

India’s true pandemic death toll is likely to be well over 3 million, a new study finds. (Published 2021)

A comprehensive effort to estimate excess deaths in the country during the pandemic produced figures 10 times the government’s official coronavirus toll.

www.nytimes.com

jesus

 

[Nobody_Important]

My perception from this thread is that some american posters clearly support a certain authority in dealing with unvaccinated people that goes much beyond wearing a mask.
Pardon my hyperbole, but we're living in an era that normalizes obesity but looks at healthy individuals as a danger to society.

Healthy individuals are not the danger. People who believe in anti-science nonsense and behave like selfish children are the danger. Perfectly healthy people go through their daily lives just fine without issue everyday by simply wearing their mask if their employer or local businesses require/request it. Millions of perfectly healthy people got vaccinated and are going about their business in a close to normal way as a result. Nightclubs are open again, theaters, restaurants, etc. We are well on the way back to "normal".


The only people who are having trouble anymore are the nutters who think wearing a small surgical mask for 20mins inside Walmart is an assault on their civil rights and who are still arguing against every little thing that is being done to try and keep the public as safe as possible without having to lock everything down again. Those people are the danger. Not healthy people.