Support NeoGAF

[ZoukGalaxy]

I don't want them to spend 5 years, at best, to write a new engine from scratch to give the same freedom, so, I'm totally fine with these Xbox 360 animations. I love the freedom the engine is giving to the players AND to the modders.
You don't create a new engine like that, especially nowadays.

 

[BbMajor7th]

Oh boy the rent free mindset this game keeps delivering is just too good. How are people so attached to a game they apparently hate or find reasons from other games to contrast for showcases of poor quality?

Schadenfreude, baby. Game was hyped to the stratosphere and back and turned out to be just okay. Nothing better than seeing someone talk themselves up and then come unstuck - top entertainment in this industry.

I don't want them to spend 5 years, at best, to write a new engine from scratch to give the same freedom, so, I'm totally fine with these Xbox 360 animations. I love the freedom the engine is giving to the players AND to the modders.
You don't create a new engine like that, especially nowadays.

"The freedom it gives players" is this industry's equivalent of a thought terminating cliche.

 

[ReBurn]

Did he "defend" Starfield though? Sounds more like "Hey just so you guys know, the things you don't like are cause of THIS, not that"

He's definitely pointing out that gamers don't know what they are talking about.

 

[adamsapple]

He's definitely pointing out that gamers don't know what they are talking about.

Nice to see developers like this, and the BG3 guy earlier, to shut down twitter dumbasses who try to make linear comparisons in two completely different kind of things.

 

[Eotheod]

Nice to see developers like this, and the BG3 guy earlier, to shut down twitter dumbasses who try to make linear comparisons in two completely different kind of things.

Unfortunately there will always be the common denominator complaining or throwing their opinion into something they literally have no idea about. Consumerism suddenly makes you an expert or some shit.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Do random users who make mods that make characters looks way better for BGS’ games for free have access to better tools than bethesda? I mean this goes all the way back to Morrowind. I remember get mods that gave characters vastly better faces without having more polygons than the originals. Plus mods like male and female bodies (Morrowind by default had the same bodies for everyone). I’m guessing mod sites have a bunch of beauty mods for the women characters in Starfield already. Although that CDPR dev is probably right about animations and how long it took them to do. They did some amazing work in the main story missions and romances/friendships stuff. Easy to see why that stuff took so long especially coming from Witcher 3 which had some rather stiff animation. Probably why the game was so short.

 

[ByWatterson]

With a defense like that who needs criticism?

Guy basically said, "Yeah, it sucks, but not for the reasons you suggest."

 

[Dirk Benedict]

Basically, they half-arsed animations for various reasons.

Funnily enough, the reason I quit playing Witcher 3 early on in the game was because the stiff animations put me off.

Damn... the reason why I didn't pick it up right away was because... it was massive.... I think more-or-less, I have gotten over that stuff. I usually experience Overload in my senses when I pick up these huge-ass games. It's why I haven't finished Red Dead 2. The animations weren't too bad, I mean, they hardly moved in most cutscenes. (Stationary scenes)

 

[Thaedolus]

Did he "defend" Starfield though? Sounds more like "Hey just so you guys know, the things you don't like are cause of THIS, not that"

I thought the exact same thing.

 

[havoc00]

Starfield is a legit great game.

 

[supernova8]

Starfield feels like a fucking Xbox 360 game with a high res texture mod. Cyberpunk feels like it's 2 generations ahead in just about every regard

In Starfield's defence, it's been nearly 3 years since Cyberpunk initially launched and it was an absolute mess at launch. If Bethesda do to Starfield what CDPR did to Cyberpunk (ie improve it) then everybody wins. Then again, if one of the reasons CDPR was able to turn it around for Cyberpunk is because the engine is relatively future proof, it doesn't bode well for Starfield based on that old-ass engine.

 

[Spukc]

CDPR devs are not exactly on the high pedestal they think they’re on these days.

Give cyberpunk another chance it’s like diablo 3 with the loot 2.0 patch and the dlc. The game is fixed

 

[hyperbertha]

Like Todd said, Starfield will live rent-free for at least 5 years.

I don't think living rent free means what you think. It doesn't really apply in this case

 

[sinnergy]

He's definitely pointing out that gamers don't know what they are talking about.

I didn’t need proof for that

 

[BootsLoader]

To be honest, even Witcher 3 has better dialogue animations than Starfield.

 

[hyperbertha]

It looks great, but to be honest you should compare release combat in Cyberpunk to just released Starfield. It's only since the 2. 0 update that I really enjoy fighting in Cyberpunk. Before that, it was just okay.

Nah starfield is a 2023 game. It's fair to compare it to 2023 cyberpunk.

 

[hyperbertha]

Unfortunately there will always be the common denominator complaining or throwing their opinion into something they literally have no idea about. Consumerism suddenly makes you an expert or some shit.

No need to be a game developer to know there is a clear quality difference between starfield and high quality RPGs. You have no real point and blaming gamers is asinine when your 'side's' devs should be stepping their quality up.

 

[sertopico]

It looks great, but to be honest you should compare release combat in Cyberpunk to just released Starfield. It's only since the 2. 0 update that I really enjoy fighting in Cyberpunk. Before that, it was just okay.

Difference is, Starfield is not gonna change in 3 years. Only mods will try fixing what can be fixed. That is Bethesda's way. Give birth to a game and abandon it in front of someone else's house.

 

[Zekra Dezivad]

Damn Starfield is getting the pitty fuck treatment just because they sad for Bethesda.

First they cried about BG3 being unfair and now they go to bat for a mediocre game.

Maybe insiders are actively trying lower expectations. It's bad when a game tries something very ambitious, it makes people realize that games industry is holding back

 

[Dr.D00p]

Creation Engine won't go until a new generation of coders, modellers & artists comes through at Bethesda.

A company like Bethesda, I suspect, has a low churn rate of talent, with individuals staying at the company for most of their careers, so they only really know how to use the tools that they started with.

I bet the average age of a Bethesda employee is alot higher than at companies like Ubisoft or CDPR.

Throw something new like UE5 at them, and they'd be lost.

 

[Braag]

Wait, Starfield hasn't motion captured their dialogue scenes?
Even BG3 which has like a million hours of dialogue has motion captured almost all of the scenes where people are just standing around and talking.

 

[Flutta]

Like Todd said, Starfield will live rent-free for at least 5 years.

Both you and Todd can keep dreaming. This game never was the next ”Skyrim” like a bunch of you touted. It’s a half assed space ”exploration” RPG with a shitty story and even shittier characters.

And we all know why the defence force is on full alert for this game. This is supposed to be the ”saviour of xbox” and we know it pissess you off that it turned out be just an average game

JIM….

 

[Lucifers Beard]

No, don’t defend that rubbish. Bethesda don’t get a free pass here. They can’t keep releasing the same shit and get a pat on the back for it. Starfield is crap and Bethesda should be called out just like any other developer would.

 

[GymWolf]

If you can tolerate the non-main scenario quest npc animations from FF16 you can tolerate Starfield's animations.

 

[Z O N E]

I don't understand people comparing Starfield to Cyberpunk.

I put in over 100 hours into Starfield and enjoyed it A LOT. Never played Cyberpunk before because it was buggy as hell even though I've been wanting to since day 1 as I REALLY love the style and aesthetic of the game. Currently about 50 hours into Cyberpunk and I don't get how people can compare the two games.

I enjoyed Starfield A LOT and I'm enjoying Cyberpunk the same. Also, Cyberpunks redemption arc is amazing. Sure there's a bug or 2, but man I'm loving the game.

 

[Spyxos]

Nah starfield is a 2023 game. It's fair to compare it to 2023 cyberpunk.

What? It is a 2020 games that got a lot of updates and very good adddon. Still this game is old.

 

[Flutta]

What? It is a 2020 games that got a lot of updates and very good adddon. Still this game is old.

Huh is there a like hidden rule where you can’t compare a game from 2020 to game from 2023? It’s like 3 years appart, it’s basically nothing. Old you say?? We ain’t comparing Skyrim to CP77 lol.

What garbage is this. Both are huge RPG’s that released not far from eachother, so it’s totally fine do so.

 

[Spyxos]

Huh is there a like hidden rule where you can’t compare a game from 2020 to game from 2023? It’s like 3 years appart, it’s basically nothing. Old you say?? We ain’t comparing Skyrim to CP77 lol.

What garbage is this. Both are huge RPG’s that released not far from eachother, so it’s totally fine do so.

It makes little sense to compare a game that had many patches after the release and a game that has just come out. As I said before, the two games should then be compared in their original form 1.0 and not after 3 years of extra development.

 

[calistan]

Wait, Starfield hasn't motion captured their dialogue scenes?
Even BG3 which has like a million hours of dialogue has motion captured almost all of the scenes where people are just standing around and talking.

What? I love BG3 but the dialogue animations are, to put it bluntly, a bit shit.

It's exactly the same as Starfield, except where Starfield has the character woodenly facing the camera, BG3 has them positioned woodenly at a slight angle. Also you get cutaways to reactions from your own character, with about five different facial expressions to cover every possible reaction.

 

[Bojji]

It makes little sense to compare a game that had many patches after the release and a game that has just come out. As i said, the two games should then be compared in their original form 1.0 and not after 3 years of development.

Why? Bethesda saw Cyberpunk at launch, they had plenty of time to fix/tune many aspects of Starfield based on CP shortcomings. They didn't, SF is worse in some ways compared even to launch 2077.

 

[geary]

It makes little sense to compare a game that had many patches after the release and a game that has just come out. As I said before, the two games should then be compared in their original form 1.0 and not after 3 years of extra development.

Yeah because noone conpared GTA V or RDR with CP2077 when was released.

People eveb compared W3 with CP77, but the version of W3 with many many patches.

When people want to push a narative, they always compare apples with oranges.

 

[EDMIX]

Huh is there a like hidden rule where you can’t compare a game from 2020 to game from 2023? It’s like 3 years appart, it’s basically nothing. Old you say?? We ain’t comparing Skyrim to CP77 lol.

What garbage is this. Both are huge RPG’s that released not far from eachother, so it’s totally fine do so.

Well, I get what Spyxos is trying to say.

Though they released around the same relative time, its relevant to bring up all those patches and updates and fixes CP2077 has had.

Its basically the pot calling the kettle black.

They both released with some issues, but CP2077 by far had the worse launch, it literally launched with many core functions missing only to be early accessed in to the game 3 years later.

So...in Starfield's defense, they are off to a better start as they have a sound base of function and feature, its not like its launching with zero space battles, Ai cant fly ships and you have to wait 3 years for it to return and then they ignore ship customization or something.

So I get it won't be 1.1, but maybe the comparison should make sense at the 3 year mark if suddenly we are ok with this weird incomplete pass all of sudden. If 3 more years is ok to add features to continue to rate, judge or review a single player game, lets keep that same energy with Starfield then.

 

[Spyxos]

Why? Bethesda saw Cyberpunk at launch, they had plenty of time to fix/tune many aspects of Starfield based on CP shortcomings. They didn't, SF is worse in some ways compared even to launch 2077.

I only have about 20-30 hours in Starfield and my launch Cyberpunk 2077 experience on the Ps5 was significantly worse. Both games were unfinished when they came out and would have needed more time.

 

[EDMIX]

Why? Bethesda saw Cyberpunk at launch, they had plenty of time to fix/tune many aspects of Starfield based on CP shortcomings. They didn't, SF is worse in some ways compared even to launch 2077.

Nah.

As someone that played both at launch, CP2077 literally only recently even just fucking got Ai to drive and shot, fuck are you talking about Starfield being worse at launch?

For Starfield to be equal to worse, that shit needs to launch with ZERO space battles, other ships can't shoot at you and you can't shoot at ships and have zero customizing for 3 years and then I can agree with you that this is a fucking shitty incomplete launch.

Thats like GTA 6 coming out and a full 3 years after launch FINALLY learn how to make bad guys drive cars and how to get the character to shoot from a car.....

I get Starfield isn't releasing like some 95 Meta scoring game, but please folks...NOTHING right now has released near the state of Cyberpunk 2077's launch, other then them.

They 100% still hold that crown now.

Until Mafia 4, Watchdogs 4 etc release with zero Ai in vehicles or something, CP2077 is holding that crown as incomplete king lol

 

[Bojji]

Nah.

As someone that played both at launch, CP2077 literally only recently even just fucking got Ai to drive and shot, fuck are you talking about Starfield being worse at launch?

For Starfield to be equal to worse, that shit needs to launch with ZERO space battles, other ships can't shoot at you and you can't shoot at ships and have zero customizing for 3 years and then I can agree with you that this is a fucking shitty incomplete launch.

Thats like GTA 6 coming out and a full 3 years after launch FINALLY learn how to make bad guys drive cars and how to get the character to shoot from a car.....

I get Starfield isn't releasing like some 95 Meta scoring game, but please folks...NOTHING right now has released near the state of Cyberpunk 2077's launch, other then them.

They 100% still hold that crown now.

Until Mafia 4, Watchdogs 4 etc release with zero Ai in vehicles or something, CP2077 is holding that crown as incomplete king lol

Space battles are core gameplay experience of Starfield. Police chases and shooting from car wasn't core aspect of CP (while it is in GTA for example), they added all this stuff because some people were constantly bitching, to me it adds absolutely nothing to the game.

It lacked features TO YOU, it wasn't needed to the game (and game focus was on story and missions). You can say the same about lack of vehicles in Starfield, it would make game better for many people (including me) but Bethesda wasn't thinking about this at all when developing.

 

[Braag]

What? I love BG3 but the dialogue animations are, to put it bluntly, a bit shit.

It's exactly the same as Starfield, except where Starfield has the character woodenly facing the camera, BG3 has them positioned woodenly at a slight angle. Also you get cutaways to reactions from your own character, with about five different facial expressions to cover every possible reaction.

I'm not talking about quality of the animations but that each conversation has has unique mocapped animations.
If you look at the normal conversations of Mass Effect games or The Witcher 3 you will notice that NPCs use similar hand and body gestures cause they reuse few dozen different animations for conversations. BG3 has for most part mocapped its conversations so you wont see same hand and body gestures all the time. Cyberpunk obviously has almost everything but the very minor stuff completely mocapped.

 

[Iceternal]

To be honest, even Witcher 3 has better dialogue animations than Starfield.

When did this narrative of Witcher 3 having bad animations come from ? Before Cyberpunk it was the gold standard for RPGs. Every single dialogue in the game has animations and camera angles picked for the scene. Nothing is automated and flat like Starfield.

So saying "even Witcher 3" is pure bullshit.

 

[rhodesianshepard]

I was always very dubious of CDPR's ability to switch genres like they did from Witcher 3 to Cyberpunk. There was always going to be development issues for such a drastic change. There's a reason why the best developers(Rockstar, Bungie, Naughty Dog ect) never stray far away from the types of games they make. It's easier to perfect a known model than create something entirely new out of whole cloth. So I give CDPR ammense credit for even attempting CP2077, when it obviously would have been much easier to make another Witcher game.

When it comes to Starfield, I think gamers expected Bethesda to deliver a unique RPG experience that was unlike anything they had developed before. When, in reality, 80% of Starfield is just Fallout 4 in space. Bethesda didn't reinvent the wheel like many gamers wanted them to do. It doesn't feel like a completely unique experience like CP2077 does.

 

[CuteFaceJay]

They simply don't want Beth to learn from the crit and thus continue to remain on top All while looking good.

It's the Chad move.

 

[Drizzlehell]

That sounds a bit condradictory because I remember both CDPR and Bioware saying that for huge RPGs like these, you have to rely on a pool of prebaked animations for scenes involving conversation trees. That's because creating bespoke animations for every single conversation in a 100+ hour game is just unrealistic due to time and resource constrains.

So if CDPR was able to put together a bunch of prebaked animations for generic conversations and still make the characters feel natural, even after seeing them perform the same gestrures a number of times, then there's no excuse for Bethesda characters to be ram-rod still and psychotically maintaining eye contact with the player during conversations.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Yeah this also bugged me immediately. The dull head on shots in dialogue. When there's more than one person in a dialogue and it just hard cuts to others head on.And then the loading at everything you do. It all feels very very old.

I don't get what the devs defense is exactly. It's not the engine but the tool. Ok. It still feels very old.

 

[winjer]

That sounds a bit condradictory because I remember both CDPR and Bioware saying that for huge RPGs like these, you have to rely on a pool of prebaked animations for scenes involving conversation trees. That's because creating bespoke animations for every single conversation in a 100+ hour game is just unrealistic due to time and resource constrains.

So if CDPR was able to put together a bunch of prebaked animations for generic conversations and still make the characters feel natural, even after seeing them perform the same gestrures a number of times, then there's no excuse for Bethesda characters to be ram-rod still and psychotically maintaining eye contact with the player during conversations.

What most companies make for big RPGS, is to have high quality motion capture, stagging, blocking and models for main characters and quests. These will be more expensive, but it's worth it to engage the player with the main content of the game.
But for smaller NPCs and sidequests, they will use more lower quality models and generic actions for NPCs.

Bethesda is so incompetent and lazy, they just use low quality motion capture, stagging and blocking, for everything.

 

[Flutta]

Well, I get what Spyxos is trying to say.

Though they released around the same relative time, its relevant to bring up all those patches and updates and fixes CP2077 has had.

Its basically the pot calling the kettle black.

They both released with some issues, but CP2077 by far had the worse launch, it literally launched with many core functions missing only to be early accessed in to the game 3 years later.

So...in Starfield's defense, they are off to a better start as they have a sound base of function and feature, its not like its launching with zero space battles, Ai cant fly ships and you have to wait 3 years for it to return and then they ignore ship customization or something.

So I get it won't be 1.1, but maybe the comparison should make sense at the 3 year mark if suddenly we are ok with this weird incomplete pass all of sudden. If 3 more years is ok to add features to continue to rate, judge or review a single player game, lets keep that same energy with Starfield then.

Nah Spyxos is just butthurt that his precious is being compared to one of the best looking games this gen. And it’s making Starfield look even worse then it did before.

Sure i get what you are saying. Alot of mechanics where missing in the launch of CP77, not denying that. But lets be real here no amount of patches will make Starfield not look like it was made with an engine from the 90s, stiff character modells, outdated animations etc etc. The whole game needs to be reworked to fix all of that. Patches won’t.

The core story and characters are one of the worst i’ve ever seen from a bethesda game. Bland, uninteresting outright bad writing. Same here patches won’t fix any of that.

And if you compare CP77 on PC during launch with Starfield, CP77 is the clear winner. PL and the 2.0 patch just made it hard for Starfield to even be in the same realm and that’s just a simple fact. No amount of turning the blind eye for Starfields core weaknesess will change any of that.

 

[SHA]

I really hate when big games introduce you to sociopath characters that essentially get you lost instead of exploring the world the authentic way, it's kinda a ripoff experience to that piece of art.

 

[F0rneus]

CDPR devs are not exactly on the high pedestal they think they’re on these days.

The new patch, completely changes the game top to bottom, from combat to character building, stats and skills. And the DLC is phenomenal. They took their L, took their kusoge and made it into the game that was promised.

 

[Gambit2483]

If you can tolerate the non-main scenario quest npc animations from FF16 you can tolerate Starfield's animations.

You're comparing the lowest tier of FF16's animations to ALL of Starfield's animations?

Outside of a few scripted events in the main missions, Starfield's animations aren't doing anything different (or better) from what we got 5 years ago.

There's no real comparison here to be honest

 

[hyperbertha]

It makes little sense to compare a game that had many patches after the release and a game that has just come out. As I said before, the two games should then be compared in their original form 1.0 and not after 3 years of extra development.

You will lose that fight too.. cp2077 had amazing animations...when they worked.

 

[lefty1117]

I think it's as simple as Bethesda introducing alternate camera angles during conversations that can change as you go, like what Mass Effect does. I think the comments that the characters don't gesticulate is flat out wrong. They do. It's just the same straight on angle every time and it feels limiting and less dynamic ... because it is. They don't have to reinvent things, just add some dynamic camera angles.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

This has gotta be some reverse psychology stuff. Coddle Bethesda for their shortcomings, so they never feel they have to improve. Therefore, less competition.

Yeah this also bugged me immediately. The dull head on shots in dialogue. When there's more than one person in a dialogue and it just hard cuts to others head on.And then the loading at everything you do. It all feels very very old.

I don't get what the devs defense is exactly. It's not the engine but the tool. Ok. It still feels very old.

The head thing is hilarious. Leads to very stilted dialog, very limited range of emoting so harder for the audience to connect with the characters.

Then having their heads contort to face the player snapping their spine but conversing like it's no big deal. Just really odd and lazy.

They simply don't want Beth to learn from the crit and thus continue to remain on top All while looking good.

It's the Chad move.

Low-key that's what I think too. Just coddle Bethesda, so when TES VI comes out it'll seem even more outdated versus contemporaries than Starfield does.

It's not like Microsoft are going to kick the team in their ass to step things up significantly.

 

[JackMcGunns]

... Starfield's NPCs are scary mannequins.

This cracked me the hell up! lol, but it's true. I haven't sunk more hours into a game since Oblivion, but at times the game looks fantastic, while other times it can be weird and scary if the lighting isn't ideal on the character's face.