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[nicoga3000]

I am anti-union, and this is no exception. I believe an employer should treat their employees right and that's that. Of course, I know this isn't always possible and, as a result, some unions do come to fruition. Most people I know in a union aren't magically happier or better off becuase of the unionization. But I'm sure there are some instances where the union can be helpful.

That said, I actually met with some engineers from Blue Origin today. They told me how they recently hired a bunch of SpaceX engineers who got burnt out due to the insane work hours over there...70+ hour weeks were common and expected. That shit is ridiculous and is not only unhealthy for the team members but unsafe considering the fatigue you start to experience. Mistakes can and will be made as a result.

 

[O_Atoll]

Wow this news made me think of him in a different light.

 

[Vanillalite]

this is literally the foundational reason for leftist politics. This is like "I'm Socially Liberal but Fiscally Conservative" it means you're right leaning

do you believe in workers having a say over their workplace?

That only works if you want to use the dumb straight line spectrum.

At any rate I'm fine with unions, but I'm not fine with this union due to the GM ownership conflict of interest. I'd rather see Tesla workers form their own.

I also hate the idea of employees and employers bargaining over shit they shouldn't be bargaining for. Things like basic wages and healthcare should be handled by the government in the form of things like guaranteed minimum income and universal healthcare.

I also think workplace rules in terms of working conditions and the like should conform to government regulation vs a case by case basis between an employer and union workers.

It's not a private businesses job to look out for everyone. That's the government.

 

[Cyrano]

I am anti-union, and this is no exception. I believe an employer should treat their employees right and that's that. Of course, I know this isn't always possible and, as a result, some unions do come to fruition. Most people I know in a union aren't magically happier or better off becuase of the unionization. But I'm sure there are some instances where the union can be helpful.

That said, I actually met with some engineers from Blue Origin today. They told me how they recently hired a bunch of SpaceX engineers who got burnt out due to the insane work hours over there...70+ hour weeks were common and expected. That shit is ridiculous and is not only unhealthy for the team members but unsafe considering the fatigue you start to experience. Mistakes can and will be made as a result.

As you've already stated, in an ideal world unions wouldn't be needed. But until capital isn't the primary means of manipulating labor, it's very likely that, in any world where capital is a significant portion of the means employers use to leverage against labor, unions will be necessary to make the field of discourse more even.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

It's not a private businesses job to look out for everyone.

You're right, we should probably just end private property ownership instead so there's no conflict here.

 

[jkanownik]

I don't think this is as similar to other cases as people are making this out to be. The thing about Elon is that he is an absolute slave to first principles thinking. The first principle in this case is that the most efficient relationship doesn't include unions.As long as he investigates issues presented by workers and acts in their interest he sees a union as wasteful to both parties. And he is right on principle.

I'm not seeing any instances here where he is wrong in practice.

 

[Cybit]

Just some food for thought on all the people dumping on Silicon Valley being a bunch of libertarians.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...litical-dollars-are-going-to-hillary-clinton/

If you want to know how the labor abusing billionaire who imports in illegal workers managed to take the "workers rights" arguments from the Democrats - that article is a reminder of the devil's deal the Democratic Party made with Silicon Valley.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Any CEO of a carmaker here in Germany would have to resign if he attacked unions in such a way. Its sad so see how corporate anti union think tanks in the US have managed to propagate that they are somehow bad for the working class. I get so much benefits and security thanks to the union you couldn't wrap your head around, like literally.

 

[daviyoung]

It's easy, Musk. Make all your employees independent contractors instead.

 

[Wag]

As long as he sends me to Mars...

 

[Log4Girlz]

As long as he sends me to Mars...

Are you part of a union?

 

[eggandI]

Any CEO of a carmaker here in Germany would have to resign if he attacked unions in such a way. Its sad so see how corporate anti union think tanks in the US have managed to propagate that they are somehow bad for the working class. I get so much benefits and security thanks to the union you couldn't wrap your head around, like literally.

At the end of the day America deserves what it's getting. Stagnant wages for literally decades, fewest vacation days of any first world country, some of the worst job stability, declining class mobility, etc. The rich are idolized and labor organization is practically dead and what little there is is constantly attacked.

I look forward to mass automation in both the transportation and service sectors.

 

[robertsan21]

Tesla has some very important products and that's great stuff and I wish them the very best.

Treating workers like shit however is not oki. The top brass should cut pay to pay for better working hours for employees if they don't want them to go to the union or pay them accordingly.

 

[Dougald]

Frankly, were I on the fence about joining a union, I definitely would sign up after reading that. Big unions have their problems but it's better than relying on crazy Silicon Valley-esque promises. Rollercoasters and free crap don't put food on your family's table.

 

[Rad-]

I am not a fan of unions at all. I worked at a company that was unionized and it was terrible.

The older guys with seniority were incredibly lazy and barely did any work. If you wanted to fire someone you would basically have to fire everyone hired after the person because of seniority.
My company fired 2 hard working guys just so they could get to one of the welders.
Raises were capped at low percentages.

In our case we really didn't need a union so we got rid of it. Maybe Canada is different but our labor laws are pretty good.

That's not how unions work here in Finland. There's no seniority protection like that.

But yeah, firing people is much harder generally in unionized companies. You can't instantly fire someone just because he doesn't do his job as well as he should. The company has to go through employee co-operation negotiations and you can't really hire new people for 9 months after letting go someone (or you can but only for positions that can't be filled by the laid off people).

 

[FloatingDivider]

Lmao at froyo & roller coaster rides. Really? I mean, you have to be legitimately out of touch if you think that's a viable solve for this situation. I wonder how it feels when your CEO treats you like a 5 year old that needs to go to school.

 

[ZackieChan]

Lmao at froyo & roller coaster rides. Really? I mean, you have to be legitimately out of touch if you think that's a viable solve for this situation. I wonder how it feels when your CEO treats you like a 5 year old that needs to go to school.

Maybe read the whole thing?

 

[Transhuman]

Lmao at froyo & roller coaster rides. Really? I mean, you have to be legitimately out of touch if you think that's a viable solve for this situation. I wonder how it feels when your CEO treats you like a 5 year old that needs to go to school.

Froyo is filled with good bacteria, and roller coasters release endorphins.

That's much more important than a health plan that includes dental.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Never knew what the fuss was all about with this guy.
So he's spending large amounts of money to make space travel, like air travel. If he really cared, he'd put all that money into a project run by NASA or something. He obviously wants to have first-mover advantage in space.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

He's a really smart dude with a great goal, but this shit is inexcusable. This is the financial billionaire elite in action. This is what Bernie talked about. Someone like Bernie could have worked this out by both enabling the creation of the union to support labor's interests, but also enabling companies like Tesla take the risk to disrupt the outmoded technologies of the incumbents of power by furthering tax incentives for customer adoption and other market-based incentives, as well as subsidy in supporting basic and applied sciences relating to the disruptive technologies themselves (I.e., being like FDR and Kennedy).

 

[PnCIa]

Frozen yogurt sure is better than more long-term job security.

 

[CSJ]

Jose Moran: This Happened.
Elon Musk: No it did not.


What am I supposed to think?

 

[RiccochetJ]

Never knew what the fuss was all about with this guy.
So he's spending large amounts of money to make space travel, like air travel. If he really cared, he'd put all that money into a project run by NASA or something. He obviously wants to have first-mover advantage in space.

If he put money into NASA, parts of it would somehow make it's way to some politician whose only goal is to institute their Christian version of Sharia Law.

Screw that.

 

[Nocebo]

I hope Tesla gets smart about this because getting a reputation as a bad employer is obviously not good for a company's chances of continued existence. Especially a company that is seemingly balancing on a knife edge right now.

Never knew what the fuss was all about with this guy.
So he's spending large amounts of money to make space travel, like air travel. If he really cared, he'd put all that money into a project run by NASA or something. He obviously wants to have first-mover advantage in space.

It seems like you're ignorant about why that would not be a good idea. NASA heavily supports companies that aim to provide services related to space travel for good reason. For one thing a private company can operate more focused and has more freedom of movement than a government agency like NASA, which has a lot of red tape. For example: see NASA's proposed manned Mars mission.

The Mars plan, supposedly, contains many unnecessary steps that are there to please heads of certain departments (by including pet projects) etc. If you wanted to get to Mars you wouldn't do it in a needlessly expensive and round about way stretched over years. Or many presidencies. NASA can get easily derailed by a new administration.

Also it seems you're ignorant, about the most basic facts. of why NASA needs companies like SpaceX to provide them services. Did you not know that NASA was paying out the ass to ride on Russian rockets? Giving NASA a relatively small amount of money (the amount Elon Musk used to start SpaceX) wasn't really going to help solve that problem.

Besides, a private company can be more efficient in building equipment as well. Reportedly NASA was/is building parts in facilities all over the country to justify the existence of those facilities, keep states happy with jobs, etc. Which creates a lot of overhead. In other words a government agency or the people working for such an agency are not necessarily benefited by running as efficiently as possible. While a private company whose aim is to make a profit does, benefit greatly from running as efficiently as possible.

NASA is already reaping the benefits of the existence of SpaceX because they provide a cheaper service, so I don't know why you're talking out of your ass about this right now? Please note that this is just one of the benefits of having a company like SpaceX around. Another would be an exchange of information.

Well, it's only natural that you wouldn't know anything if you don't read any articles from NASA or watch their videos etc. But then if you don't read anything about the situation why are you making stuff up and talking like you know something. It's like a post Donald Trump would make.

 

[hodgy100]

If you want a good snapshot of the fear of unions Americans have, just look at the SAG-AFTRA strike threads on the gaming side and see how people try and play on the possibility of how unionizing parts of the industry will drive the price of games up.

so people dont care that devs work 80 hour weeks they just want cheap vidya.

cripes as a dev thats depressing.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I hate this. Really makes me re evaluate my opinion of him.

He is a capitalist. All capitalists are greedy and anti-worker. Its just that this capitalist has some great ideas.

 

[Valhelm]

Silicon Valley Techno libertarians are the worse

amen

 

[subwilde]

One of the reasons NUMMI shut down was cause of the union. The very same building in Fremont, CA so it's not a surprise they don't want it haha

 

[Sulik2]

Wow this news made me think of him in a different light.

No billionaires are good people. The most common trait of CEOs is sociopathy. It doesn't mean Musk isn't actually trying to do some interesting things for the future of humanity, but its not possible to make that kind of money building businesses without practing all the underhanded shady crap all CEOs are known for. Its why unions are so important, to try and counter the sociopathic tendencies of big business.

 

[Brinbe]

Yeah, fuck that shit. No respect for that.

 

[ZackieChan]

No billionaires are good people. The most common trait of CEOs is sociopathy. It doesn't mean Musk isn't actually trying to do some interesting things for the future of humanity, but its not possible to make that kind of money building businesses without practing all the underhanded shady crap all CEOs are known for. Its why unions are so important, to try and counter the sociopathic tendencies of big business.

What the fuck am I reading in this thread?

 

[FreezeSSC]

Does Tesla actually make a profit yet? That could be why he is so scared of unions last I remember they still lost money every quarter.

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

No billionaires are good people. The most common trait of CEOs is sociopathy. It doesn't mean Musk isn't actually trying to do some interesting things for the future of humanity, but its not possible to make that kind of money building businesses without practing all the underhanded shady crap all CEOs are known for. Its why unions are so important, to try and counter the sociopathic tendencies of big business.

Bill Gates is a sociopath?

 

[gcubed]

Just some food for thought on all the people dumping on Silicon Valley being a bunch of libertarians.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...litical-dollars-are-going-to-hillary-clinton/

They are still techno libertarians but they actually value their fellow humans so their only option is Democrats.

They are basically the Democrats that liberals hate the most

 

[Sulik2]

What the fuck am I reading in this thread?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cent-of-ceos-are-psychopaths-only-21-percent/

21 percent of USA CEOs are psychopaths. Rate of occurrence in the normal population is 1/100. CEOs are almost all across the board terrible people. Its not really a surprise if Musk is one too, even of he is the rare billionaire who wants to do something for humanity.

Bill Gates is a sociopath?

Gates was viscious at Microsoft. You should read up on his history. Apparently after retiring his Dad had a talk with him and he actually had a bit of a see the light moment.

 

[jorma]

As you've already stated, in an ideal world unions wouldn't be needed. But until capital isn't the primary means of manipulating labor, it's very likely that, in any world where capital is a significant portion of the means employers use to leverage against labor, unions will be necessary to make the field of discourse more even.

Weird because we seem to agree on principle but i think that ideally, strong unions are absolutely needed so that employers and employees can negotiate fair compensations and standards on equal footing. Ideally, employers should organise too so that the unions can't play individual corporations off each other.

Both parties will have the well being of the company in mind, but one will focus on workers rights and the other on profitability. I can't really think of a better way to do it to be honest.

 

[entremet]

Why are you not at all in favor of unions?

I'm not necessarily anti unions.

I just don't think unions make sense in today's mobile workforce. Lifetime employment is dead.

If Musk doesn't want unions in Tesla. That's his prerogative. Employees could seek work in companies with Union labor. But UAW shouldn't be able to bully their way into Tesla and demand that their employees join UAW.

Regarding unions, we gotta do something about this since pubic sector pensions are going to bankrupt many municipalities in the future.

For the record, I'm for excellent benefits like pensions to public workers. But we need to pay for them eventually and no wants to raise taxes. It's a messed up situation.

Also if you want Unions in every industry, don't complain about higher prices, which will happen.

I'm just saying there are tradeoffs and if Musk and his board have decided it's not worth it, he's not being anti-Christ here. UAW is a proper case study of why Corporate America is so fearful of unions.

I don't think the fears of certainly founded, but it sure spooked corporate boards.

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cent-of-ceos-are-psychopaths-only-21-percent/

21 percent of USA CEOs are psychopaths. Rate of occurrence in the normal population is 1/100. CEOs are almost all across the board terrible people. Its not really a surprise if Musk is one too, even of he is the rare billionaire who wants to do something for humanity.



Gates was viscious at Microsoft. You should read up on his history. Apparently after retiring his Dad had a talk with him and he actually had a bit of a see the light moment.

A ruthless business person doesn't make you a sociopath, but ok.

 

[dem]

Bill Gates is a sociopath?

Before the Gates foundation was a thing.. the universal answer would have been yes.

 

[Kud Dukan]

21 percent of USA CEOs are psychopaths. Rate of occurrence in the normal population is 1/100. CEOs are almost all across the board terrible people.

21% does not equal "almost all".

 

[entremet]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cent-of-ceos-are-psychopaths-only-21-percent/

21 percent of USA CEOs are psychopaths. Rate of occurrence in the normal population is 1/100. CEOs are almost all across the board terrible people. Its not really a surprise if Musk is one too, even of he is the rare billionaire who wants to do something for humanity.



Gates was viscious at Microsoft. You should read up on his history. Apparently after retiring his Dad had a talk with him and he actually had a bit of a see the light moment.

The psychological makeup is very small reasons CEOs act like this.

The reason many act like this is due the incentive, maximizing shareholder value. Psychological makeup is very overrated here.

If I give you a job where your main concern is maximizing shareholder value, you will do things that maximize shareholder value, including keeping one of your biggest cost centers--labor--low.

It ain't rocket science as to why CEOs act like this. It's the system in place.

 

[smisk]

It's hard to know what to think of this. I instinctively don't like the fact that he's so anti-union, but I also would want to hear from other employees besides that one guy about working conditions.

 

[Drifters]

Musk is a piece of shit. His work is important, but he can go suck a dick.

Yeah no. Unions in their current state and for making and producing cars of the future are not required. But hey, opinions man.

 

[Gaogaogao]

man what the fuck

 

[CSJ]

21% does not equal "almost all".

Read it again, he said 21% are psychopaths and that almost all are terrible.
Being terrible doesn't mean you are a psychopath.

 

[erragal]

Did the republicans purge turn of the century labor conditions education from our textbooks recently? Or are people just so egocentric that they believe history is just a thing that happened to people who didn't know better. Did Upton Sinclair stop being read? Fuck the death of academics in american schools.

Being ' against ' unions as a generalized position is a horrifically shortsighted purview and frankly makes no rational sense unless you are ultra wealthy interested in using your leverage to exploit individuals in the future.

Additionally if you are against unionization you definitely should be even more against all forms of corporate liability protection. As well as in favor of the repeal of anti discrimination laws in hiring, child labor laws, minimum wages, family medical leave act, unemployment compensation, and the National labor relations board. All programs that exist only due to the blood and actual lives of other humans.

Americans really don't even know how integral organized labor negotiation is conceptually to the freedoms they possess.

Having specific complaints about the aims of specific union members or the unwillingness of unions to be flexible for struggling employers is more rational and then a discussion can start.

What's most fascinating is that average americans have been so successfully propagandized against unions even while they celebrate and integrate culturally four of the most powerful unions in the entire world. NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL all utilize unions just fine...those multi billion dollar companies don't seem to be struggling under the oppressive yoke of labor scheming!!

Yeah "I don't like unions", very much the well crafted position of an intellectual savant. Surely.

 

[ZackieChan]

Read it again, he said 21% are psychopaths and that almost all are terrible.
Being terrible doesn't mean you are a psychopath.

Going by how these threads go, having money or being successful seems to be enough for GAF to judge you a terrible person.

 

[CertifiedFP]

It's sad to see a place like GAF falling for the recent anti-Tesla drama.

This shit (including several other stories putting Tesla in a negative light recently) is a ploy by alt-right speculators to tank Tesla's stock value in reaction to their market cap hitting a new high.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Jose Moran: This Happened.
Elon Musk: No it did not.


What am I supposed to think?

That most employees know better and will determine themselves if they want to join a union or not.

TESLA is one of the top shorted billion-dollar cap companies out there, they have a constant stream of negative articles by people actively trying to make money of a falling stock price. The higher it goes the more money they lose, and when you short a stock you have potential unlimited losses, so they get really desperate. I think there was an article title "The Only Thing on Autopilot at Tesla Is the Hype Machine" which was listed at the top of its top five stories since October, no matter what other news showed up.

 

[Giant Panda]

Too often unions these days are about protecting seniority and the inefficient. At least with private sector unions, when they become inflexible and greedy they just put their employer out of business. But I especially hate public sector unions because often they have no competition, so most citizens are just left with worse governmental services.