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[bomblord1]

For those unaware Aliasing is basically the "stair step" pattern you see when looking at computer generated image on a screen. It is caused by the pixels being large enough to see. Anti-Aliasing makes the pattern less apparent by blurring the difference between two pixels. (this achieved a number of ways but the best looking and most accurate is Super Sampling)

On the left is an Aliased letter A on the right is with Anti-Aliasing.

You see here the pixels on the A are large enough that you can see them which creates that pattern. As pixels get smaller and resolutions get higher this becomes less and less apparent. I'm sure it's obvious that an A on your probably 720 or 1080p screen does not suffer from the same aliasing as that one. As resolutions get higher the need for AA becomes less and less.

So my question is GAF is 4K monitor enough to eliminate the need for AA? If not what resolution does it?

I know this is also a factor of sitting distance and screen size so for the sake of argument let's set a standard.

Case A. A 42" TV at average sitting distance (8 foot)
Case B. A 22" Computer monitor at average sitting distance (1-2 foot)

EDIT
Awesome PPD calculator I found online
http://phrogz.net/tmp/ScreenDens2In.html

Case A AA is not needed
Case B AA is only needed in medium and high contrast areas.

 

[Durante]

No.

As for when it becomes completely unnecessary, probably around 32k resolution per eye for a full FoV. 8k could be enough for a typical screen FoV, though it probably wouldn't eliminate shimmering completely.

 

[ThePeoplesBureau]

No.

As for when it becomes completely unnecessary, probably around 32k resolution per eye for a full FoV.

Close the thread XD

 

[bomblord1]

No.

As for when it becomes completely unnecessary, probably around 32k resolution per eye for a full FoV.

I find that hard to believe my 1080p monitor almost makes jaggies invisible when I add 2xAA they are completely gone.

 

[Xyber]

Still needed, but using some sort of SMAA usually works good enough for most stuff at that resolution.

 

[Darkhadou]

As far as gaming goes, I haven't really needed AA or more than 2x anyway ever since I started gaming on 1440p 3 years ago.

Super sampling helps if it's available, prefer it over AA strictly speaking.

 

[BomberMouse]

No.

As for when it becomes completely unnecessary, probably around 32k resolution per eye for a full FoV.

You are assuming a screen that fully covers your eye, which is not what we have right now.

I feel like stuff on my retina display look good enough without AA.

 

[Durante]

I find that hard to believe my 1080p monitor almost makes jaggies invisible when I add 2xAA they are completely gone.

Well, then you are simply bad at spotting aliasing.

Be happy, your GPU requirements are far lower than those of us burdened with more acute vision

You are assuming a screen that fully covers your eye, which is not what we have right now.

I added a second sentence regarding that to my post.

 

[Tenebrous]

As far as gaming goes, I haven't really needed AA or more than 2x anyway ever since I started gaming on 1440p 3 years ago.

Super sampling helps if it's available, prefer it over AA strictly speaking.

Supersampling is AA.

 

[-griffy-]

I find that hard to believe my 1080p monitor almost makes jaggies invisible

Nope.

 

[Noobcraft]

Nope.

My 1080p 4.8" screen makes jaggies almost invisible. It's a question of PPI.

 

[-griffy-]

My 1080p 4.8" screen makes jaggies almost invisible. It's a question of PPI.

I was just going to edit my post to add "Unless your screen size is 4"."

 

[bomblord1]

Nope.

Y..Yes? Are you arguing about my experience with a game?

 

[Neue Regel]

I find that hard to believe my 1080p monitor almost makes jaggies invisible when I add 2xAA they are completely gone.

Really? I still see aliasing at 8xMSAA 1080p, although not irritatingly so.

 

[Vic20]

I run a 4k PC rig on my 4K TV and I sit a out 6 feet from the screen. I am still graced with 20/20 vision (hang in there eye balls!) and I tend to set AA to x2 or x4 to ensure zero Jaggies.

 

[bomblord1]

Really? I still see aliasing at 4xMSAA 1080p, although not irritatingly so.

Maybe I should add on a 20" computer monitor that I sit roughly 2-3 foot from.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I don't use AA @ 4K. Mostly because I find it looks a little bit soft where I prefer it slightly crisper that way.

Then again, I'm also downsampling. If I had a real 4K monitor, my opinion might be very different.

 

[JordanN]

CG movies are rendered at high resolutions and they still use AA.

Aliasing will always exist based off rendering.

 

[Khrno]

Y..Yes? Are you arguing about my experience with a game?

I think they are arguing your expertise about the quality of computer graphics, not your experience with games.

 

[Corgi]

wonder if this depends on the ppi of the display. Like maybe this is valid for a 23" 4k monitor, but not so much for a 40" monitor.


Like i have a harder time noticing lack of AA on mobile games at native 'retina' resolutions.

 

[bomblord1]

I think they are arguing your expertise about the quality of computer graphics, not your experience with games.

But I said I can't see Aliasing on a 1080p monitor with 2X AA and he said no.

 

[-griffy-]

Y..Yes? Are you arguing about my experience with a game?

You are either overstating how much your monitor "hides" aliasing or you just don't notice it for some reason. Or you sit 10 feet away from your monitor. 1080p games without AA on my 24" 1080p monitor still have incredibly noticeable, distracting aliasing. Depending on the AA solution 8xAA will still have noticeable shimmering.

 

[bomblord1]

wonder if this depends on the ppi of the display. Like maybe this is valid for a 23" 4k monitor, but not so much for a 40" monitor.


Like i have a harder time noticing lack of AA on mobile games at native 'retina' resolutions.

It is entirely dependent on this which is why I set up 2 use case scenarios in my OP.

 

[Noobcraft]

I was just going to edit my post to add "Unless your screen size is 4"."

Lol. I sometimes wonder how good games like Forza 5 or Driveclub would look if I could play them at a native resolution on my smart phone. Shimmering might still be noticeable but I think it would look pretty awesome.

 

[Durante]

It doesn't really depend on the PPI.

It fully depends on the pixels per degree of your field of view the display device covers. On conventional displays, this is a function of display size, display resolution, and distance to the display.

 

[LastOne2100]

Problem is the computing power increases significantly for true AA at 4K. If you have a system powerful enough to run 2-4x AA, I'd absolutely turn it on, because it will improve the image quality enough that it's worth it. Would I sacrifice smooth 60FPS or other settings to enable AA at 4K? Absolutely not.

At 4K, however, I would disable all post-process blur AA methods instantly, even if those were the only options available to me.

 

[IcyEyes]

I run a 4k PC rig on my 4K TV and I sit a out 6 feet from the screen. I am still graced with 20/20 vision (hang in there eye balls!) and I tend to set AA to x2 or x4 to ensure zero Jaggies.

I do the same thing

 

[Wreav]

I find that hard to believe my 1080p monitor almost makes jaggies invisible when I add 2xAA they are completely gone.

 

[bomblord1]

You are either overstating how much your monitor "hides" aliasing or you just don't notice it for some reason. Or you sit 10 feet away from your monitor. 1080p games without AA on my 24" 1080p monitor still have incredibly noticeable, distracting aliasing. Depending on the AA solution 8xAA will still have noticeable shimmering.

20" monitor 2-3 foot. 2XSSAA @ 1080p no jaggies visible at all unless I smoosh my face against the monitor or get closer than my reclined position in my chair to specifically look for it.

 

[-griffy-]

But I said I can't see Aliasing on a 1080p monitor with 2X AA and he said no.

No you said: "my 1080p monitor almost makes jaggies invisible," and then added to that "when I add 2xAA they are completely gone."

I responded to the first statement.

 

[Dictator93]

Durante's post points to how hard it actually is to be "pixel-free."

I happily await the first 100TF GPU.

 

[thewhitehawk]

Honestly at 1080p I don't notice a huge difference from 2/4x AA onwards. It's one of those settings I'll only bump up a lot if I don't notice a performance impact.

 

[elelunicy]

Here's a comparison shot between 1440p with 4xMSAA and 5k downsampled (DA: Inquisition).

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/108209

You can see at 5k AA is still needed. 1440p with 4xMSAA is full of jaggies.

 

[bomblord1]

No you said: "my 1080p monitor almost makes jaggies invisible," and then added to that "when I add 2xAA they are completely gone."

I responded to the first statement.

Nearly aka they are there but not distracting.

 

[Darkhadou]

Supersampling is AA.

That'd probably be why I prefer it off then but a native higher resolution always helps. Can't imagine needing it for 4k but we'll see/

 

[CyberPunked]

Well it depends how close you are to and the size of the screen.

 

[Dictator93]

Here's a comparison shot between 1440p with 4xMSAA and 5k downsampled (DA: Inquisition).

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/108209

You can see at 5k AA is still needed. 1440p with 4xMSAA is full of jaggies.

To be completely fair, the MSAA in frostbite engine games is pure shit.

 

[Durante]

Problem is the computing power increases significantly for true AA at 4K. If you have a system powerful enough to run 2-4x AA, I'd absolutely turn it on, because it will improve the image quality enough that it's worth it. Would I sacrifice smooth 60FPS or other settings to enable AA at 4K? Absolutely not.

At 4K, however, I would disable all post-process blur AA methods instantly, even if those were the only options available to me.

Actually, I feel the opposite.

At really high resolution, post-processing AA methods become more valuable. Why? Because their performance impact is small (and you need that performance to render at such high resolutions in the first place), and because the loss of pixel-level detail they induce is mitigated by the high resolution.

Here's a comparison shot between 1440p with 4xMSAA and 5k downsampled (DA: Inquisition).

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/108209

You can see at 5k AA is still needed. 1440p with 4xMSAA is full of jaggies.

That MSAA clearly isn't working correctly.

 

[bomblord1]

Here's a comparison shot between 1440p with 4xMSAA and 5k downsampled (DA: Inquisition).

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/108209

You can see at 5k AA is still needed. 1440p with 4xMSAA is full of jaggies.

http://abload.de/img/slsexj-180zp8d.png this is 1080p (4x IR but dolphin is rendering to the window size) with 2x AA running in dolphin no aliasing is visible

 

[PayForYourGas]

At 2560x1440, I barely notice the difference with AA on. If it means the difference between a solid 60 FPS, I'll turn AA off everytime and usually don't notice anything.

 

[Seanspeed]

20" monitor 2-3 foot. 2XSSAA @ 1080p no jaggies visible at all unless I smoosh my face against the monitor or get closer than my reclined position in my chair to specifically look for it.

1080p with 2xSSAA is basically like 1440p.

And yes, I can imagine that you see very little jaggies at 1440p on a 20" screen from 3ft away. You get far enough away and/or shrink the screen enough and IQ/resolution impacts diminish to a point of being imperceptible.

But 1440p on a 20" monitor from 3ft away is also hardly a typical viewing situation.

 

[Noobcraft]

http://abload.de/img/slsexj-180zp8d.png this is 1080p with 2x AA running in dolphin no aliasing is visible

There is aliasing on the sprites in the top left corner, as well as pretty noticeable aliasing on the dude with black hair against the gray wall.


Plus his sword is dangerously close to the other guys manhood.

 

[bomblord1]

There is aliasing on the sprites in the top left corner, as well as pretty noticeable aliasing on the dude with black hair against the gray wall.

The sprites and textures are made for 480p please ignore them look at the geometry (the straps on the character are not geometry)

 

[pixlexic]

I wouldn't say unneeded but you wont need very heavy performance killing forms thats for sure.

 

[Seanspeed]

http://abload.de/img/slsexj-180zp8d.png this is 1080p (4k IR but dolphin is rendering to the window size) with 2x AA running in dolphin no aliasing is visible

There's definitely aliasing there. But I'm on a 27" monitor from about 18 inches away.

Also, not every game/situation is the same. Some games have worse IQ than others, or at least more elements that make imperfections in aliasing more prominent.

 

[Corronchilejano]

There is aliasing on the sprites in the top left corner, as well as pretty noticeable aliasing on the dude with black hair against the gray wall.


Plus his sword is dangerously close to the other guys manhood.

Jaggies != aliasing. Also, the aliased sprites is not a resolution problem.

 

[Durante]

http://abload.de/img/slsexj-180zp8d.png this is 1080p (4k IR but dolphin is rendering to the window size) with 2x AA running in dolphin no aliasing is visible

When you say "4k IR" then do you mean 4k internal resolution? because then it's rendering at 4k. With 2xAA.

Inany case, there's pretty obvious aliasing on the sword tips and at the first bright horizontal line from the top center.

 

[lefantome]

Still needed, but using some sort of SMAA usually works good enough for most stuff at that resolution.

yep,

the AA issue will be much much less noticeable.
Just looking at infamous 1-2 and Second Son: thanks to 1080p and SMAA it was a giant step in terms of aliasing

 

[Xane]

I find that hard to believe my 1080p monitor almost makes jaggies invisible when I add 2xAA they are completely gone.

You'll have a hard time playing Monster Hunter when all Jaggies are invisible.

 

[-griffy-]

http://abload.de/img/slsexj-180zp8d.png this is 1080p (4k IR but dolphin is rendering to the window size) with 2x AA running in dolphin no aliasing is visible

SSAA is super-sampling anti-aliasing though, it's essentially downsampling, IE rendering the image at a higher resolution than 1080p and then shrinking it down to fit at 1080p.

That isn't just 1080p with 2x"AA" applied.

Here's 1080p with 2xMSAA for comparison.

If we were to take your method for eliminating aliasing at 1080p and apply it to a 4K screen resolution, it seems we would be rendering at 8K, with 2xSSAA applied over the top of that to effectively be needing the power to run at a resolution of 16k or so. That's just not feasible as far as hardware at this point, and not a realistic way to deduce that AA at 4K is not needed.