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[BennyBlanco]

They are wrong , full stop. At low skill levels these won't carry players much, but at an intermediate and high level these are atrocious. I don't need to reply every person, however.

I can, however, post the adamant opinion of an Evo champ and veteran Tekken player.



Everyone in the community also reacted similarly over a decade ago, including Aris himself.

Hitbox carried scrubs like SuperAkuma.




Loved watching him get washed with his own character and another hitbox by Book just to prove a point lol

 

[MegatronActivate]

I think the bigger discussion here isn't about levers per se but that competitive video games in general just need to grow balls and actually define standards for competition that don't change as the wind blows. I understand that limiting """"choice"""" is video game AIDS to some people but frankly sometimes arbitrary decisions just have to be made and limitations exist just to be limitations. Actual sports do it all the time because it is essential to consistent competition.

In this case they just need to decide, is the intent of fighting games to be competition between two contestants based on the spirit of arcade competition - meaning joysticks - or at the very least spirit of console competition - meaning gamepads too - or is it meant to be two people competing using literally any method possible even if it completely depreciates the entirely of fighting game history? Like anyone can come up with some dumb fuck method of input and no matter what it has to be allowed because god forbid you tell someone they have to play a video game with a specific controller?

This discussion feels like asking if metal bats in major league baseball would be cheating... it doesn't matter because baseball has already decided to play with wooden bats and that is that. If someone comes up with stone bats or plastic bats or diamond bats it doesn't matter because they are playing with wooden bats.

Not all sports follow those rules. Some allow some wiggle or form of expression. F1 as an example. Not all athletes were same cleats or whatever. But capcom again had some pretty stricked rules on how the sodc had to work and hitbox and some other manufacturers had to update their controller before cpt season. the thread was about if leverless was cheating.

 

[MegatronActivate]

That's nice you have played on them. So have I. It doesn't change the fact that it is fundamentally still a cheating device. The games were not designed with this type of input in mind at all.

Even with SOCD cleaning, a wasd player has access to things lever players objectively do not, like the crouch-sidestep into the foreground issue in Tekken. Even though this is an issue with the game, the controller circumvents it. There are even more example than the myriad ones I gave itt. Can keep going

I disagree.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Cheatboxes are lame.

 

[SirTerry-T]

I imagine it would take some of the fun out of trying to master traditional stick/ d-pad controls?

 

[Solidus_T]

Hitbox carried scrubs like SuperAkuma.




Loved watching him get washed with his own character and another hitbox by Book just to prove a point lol

I LOVED watching that match. Book doesn't even practice Akuma and he was like "watch this"
The pop off at the end.
To quote Aris, "This character is for fucking scrubs, watch this"

 

[a multicultural team of v]

Not all sports follow those rules. Some allow some wiggle or form of expression. F1 as an example. Not all athletes were same cleats or whatever. But capcom again had some pretty stricked rules on how the sodc had to work and hitbox and some other manufacturers had to update their controller before cpt season. the thread was about if leverless was cheating.

Yeah that's fair but input is pretty fundamental, it isn't bringing a different setup to the race it is bringing a car with TCS or power steering to a race series that doesn't allow those.

The controller updates part is interesting because clearly game devs know these devices very well, so why aren't they specifically programming new games with them in mind? Why is there even a discussion about additional functionality when the game dev can completely account for that? Hard to call any of this cheating considering it hasn't been prevented either via rule or programming.

 

[justiceiro]

When I was a kid I tried to play games on the keyboard and was awful. How someone decided it is a good idea to get rid of the stick and bring the keyboard experience to these it's something I don't really understand.

Basically: every keyboard is a lever less stick, so no, not really cheating.

 

[docchicken]

Hitbox carried scrubs like SuperAkuma.




Loved watching him get washed with his own character and another hitbox by Book just to prove a point lol

Superakouma is not a scrub, he's a pro -- but lol he is a great example of what I'm talking about. These controllers are crazy in even intermediate players' hands.

 

[MegatronActivate]

Yeah that's fair but input is pretty fundamental, it isn't bringing a different setup to the race it is bringing a car with TCS or power steering to a race series that doesn't allow those.

The controller updates part is interesting because clearly game devs know these devices very well, so why aren't they specifically programming new games with them in mind? Why is there even a discussion about additional functionality when the game dev can completely account for that? Hard to call any of this cheating considering it hasn't been prevented either via rule or programming.

They have and at the programing level.sf6 doesnt read the inputs the same.not sure about other games.I dont think its cheating because whatever advantages some are saying really isn't there with the sodc. Some inputs are quicker some are pretty hard like spinning pile driver. And considering how much money is on the line so many players are using pad ,stick and leverless and all have won. If it were what some are saying all would have switched by now or they would be out right banned. I think some are just salty. I remember when they laughed at pad players look at them now evo champs on different games no less. like i said earlier some player do whats considered cheating by inputting 2 directions at the same time with d pads and analogs. And about the car analogy the rules are set well for cpt anf street fighter and they allow for a certain amount of expression within the rules. I suggest playing with all 3 you will see. And if you have i dont see how you might think its cheating. Players lose and win on character match ups player skill and game knowledge. Thats really all there is to it.

 

[BossLackey]

How can it be cheating ?
It doesn't enhance the player output without efforts on his part.

I'm not saying it's cheating, but pretty much any fighting game before SF6/Tekken 8 was not built with SOCD (Simultaneous Opposing Cardinal Directions) in mind.

Add to that the fact that execution is a large part of what establishes a skill gap in most fighting games and the myriad execution shortcuts a leverless can do, and it completely trivializes certain powerful techniques that would otherwise be difficult to pull off without many hours of practice.

Korean Backdash comes to mind. SUPER important in mid-high level Tekken and it's very difficult to do, yet someone who's never played a fighting game can be KBD'ing in 3 minutes with a leverless.

That's one of many examples.

Having said all that, I don't think it's cheating and I have one myself (though I still prefer stick).

 

[docchicken]

I disagree.

You may disagree with the characterization of the device being cheating, but not the facts I presented. Objectively, hitbox, mixbox, and keyboard users have the capability of performing inputs that are just not possible with a lever, even with a cleaner.

 

[MegatronActivate]

You may disagree with the characterization of the device being cheating, but not the facts I presented. Objectively, hitbox, mixbox, and keyboard users have the capability of performing inputs that are just not possible with a lever, even with a cleaner.

I disagree sodc prevents that. You cant do 2 inputs it will always register only 1 just like joystick . You cant hold left and right and block both sides as an example. Or maybe im not understanding what inputs. What are the inputs that are not posible? I understand that the controller are different but their utility is the same. Even if form factor is different

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

 

[Crayon]

I imagine it would take some of the fun out of trying to master traditional stick/ d-pad controls?

Some, but in honesty it probably takes away more pain than fun.

Ggst added a button for dash as an alternative to double-tap. It trivializes instant air dashing, which I spent hours and hours practicing. While it was fun to take my hard earned skill into a match, I think that's a hard sell considering you can skip all that practice now.

...

One issue I have is that leverless can obsolete pivoting directional inputs by literally breaking them. Pad or stick, they are supposed to be tied together and by breaking them apart, you are gaming the system. Then what happens when everyone is compelled to adopt it to keep up? Everyone is back on the same level again and tradition is lost. Not to mention those who played with the stock controller ends up needing a $140+ controller, or at least knowing they are at a disadvantage without one.

 

[Toots]

I'm not saying it's cheating, but pretty much any fighting game before SF6/Tekken 8 was not built with SOCD (Simultaneous Opposing Cardinal Directions) in mind.

Add to that the fact that execution is a large part of what establishes a skill gap in most fighting games and the myriad execution shortcuts a leverless can do, and it completely trivializes certain powerful techniques that would otherwise be difficult to pull off without many hours of practice.

Korean Backdash comes to mind. SUPER important in mid-high level Tekken and it's very difficult to do, yet someone who's never played a fighting game can be KBD'ing in 3 minutes with a leverless.

That's one of many examples.

Having said all that, I don't think it's cheating and I have one myself (though I still prefer stick).

You boviously know a lot more than me on the subject and raise interesting arguments.
Fro m my neophyte standpoint, it seems half of what the players do with any fighting game are not planned or intended by the devs. That's the beauty of it, finding crazy strategies to be the best.
About the trivialization of difficult techniques, i bet the pro will find other extremely difficult to execute techniques with time, maybe using leverless sticks. Don't underestimate human ingeniosity !

ANyway, this new technology is making waves in the community because it changes every habit people have and force them to rethink their way of playing if they want to win again. Tough times for them but they will come out stronger.
What is the saying again ?
"Tough times bring hard men, hard men bring good times, good times bring smash bros players..."