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Pegasus Actual
Member
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
I've never heard of it before. I guess it's sort of like a DPad really.
If this is unfair, I guess you'd have to standardise how much movement a stick needs to make before it registers a direction otherwise some sticks will be able to register particular commands easier than others.
If this is unfair, I guess you'd have to standardise how much movement a stick needs to make before it registers a direction otherwise some sticks will be able to register particular commands easier than others.
Paltheos
Member
As long as the game you're playing doesn't pass inputs that are impossible to perform otherwise and would break the experience (i.e. holding both left and right buttons at the same time to block on both sides), then of course they're fair.
Although me saying that suddenly reminded me of an old Smash problem where top players would seek out rare, defective Gamecube controllers that allow them to input moves that can't be done with regular controllers. What a weird story.
Although me saying that suddenly reminded me of an old Smash problem where top players would seek out rare, defective Gamecube controllers that allow them to input moves that can't be done with regular controllers. What a weird story.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Not cheating.
That’s like comparing 3 people. One uses a game pad, one a keyboard /‘and one a mouse.
Depending on the game, one style will likely be better than the others. Does that mean a mouse user is cheating in a point and click adventure game while a game pad user is cheating at playing platforners?
That’s like comparing 3 people. One uses a game pad, one a keyboard /‘and one a mouse.
Depending on the game, one style will likely be better than the others. Does that mean a mouse user is cheating in a point and click adventure game while a game pad user is cheating at playing platforners?
Knightime_X
Member
I think they break some older games
The Cockatrice
Member
March Climber
Member
I’ve used one of these before. It’s kind of like when early 90s PC game devs didn’t realize a mouse existed yet and you did everything with keys.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
I've asked this question many a time.
Crayon
Member
To yourself or to others? This is the first time I've actually asked anyone.
nikos
Member
I bought three of these in the last year. I think a traditional stick is more fun but leverless is more accurate once you get used to it.
Although I've always used a stick, my execution was never great. Once you get used to leverless, it's easier to use. I wouldn't call it cheating but it definitely has advantages.
Although I've always used a stick, my execution was never great. Once you get used to leverless, it's easier to use. I wouldn't call it cheating but it definitely has advantages.
ChoosableOne
ChoosableAll
I usually play with a keyboard (~similar concept) and perform better than with a gamepad or stick. Its faster and more precise.
bajouras
Member
This reminds me about this drama that happened on trackmania about keyboard vs controller sticks for turning your car.
https://youtu.be/VUvtt0Li98g?si=uJ29PY7wQfdn51xQ
Tldw: keyboard with direct inputs for each movement state makes everything easier, but there’s always this one crazy dude that uses the analog stick and manages to be as good as if not even better.
https://youtu.be/VUvtt0Li98g?si=uJ29PY7wQfdn51xQ
Tldw: keyboard with direct inputs for each movement state makes everything easier, but there’s always this one crazy dude that uses the analog stick and manages to be as good as if not even better.
tvdaXD
Member
I don't play fighting games, but I can understand it would be faster to press a button instead of moving a stick. However, I don't think it's cheating. The solution to all is to eliminate the difference, not what causes it. So basically, if someone uses a controller with buttons, then match those up with a same controller.
WitchHunter
Banned
They use these abominations in tournaments if I remember correctly.vvv These things. vvv
I don't care if you don't play fighting games. Just think whatever comes to mind, maybe share, and vote. The poll will close in 365 months.
JackMcGunns
Member
Only if playing with a D-Pad is cheating. 
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Hitboxes did break certain games because they allowed multiple opposite inputs at the same time, so you could easily block in both directions in mvc3.
They definitely seem to be better than arcade sticks for input reactions, tokido said he couldn't beat daigo without using the same hitbox style controller as him, but that doesn't make it cheating, otherwise gamepads are cheating too.
Arcade sticks are just the old way of control, but it was never the best way, just what was available tech wise.
They definitely seem to be better than arcade sticks for input reactions, tokido said he couldn't beat daigo without using the same hitbox style controller as him, but that doesn't make it cheating, otherwise gamepads are cheating too.
Arcade sticks are just the old way of control, but it was never the best way, just what was available tech wise.
Cheating no, a design issue as long as they are legal, yes. If the game wasnt designed with leverless in mind it probably shouldnt be an option for competitive play. As a spectator I like it seeing things pushed as far as they can go, as a competitor I dislike it since it eclipses all other control options because the game isnt properly designed for it.
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Kings Field
Member
Love hit boxes. I tried one out at a MK tourney years ago and it is great. I don’t see a problem with them.
crackajack
Member
The average button masher like me who anyway barely knows what he is doing won't improve with these much, but for the top players any advantage might be a huge factor for winning and losing. I guess real life tournaments can have rules to forbid them, but in regular online play, I don't know how a special d-pad should be considered illegal.
Also watched a Wirtual Trackmania video about inputs. He made it quite easy to understand how input methods can have a big impact there.
Same I guess with regular driving games, where wheel vs controller vs even regular keyboard is probably also quite different, and basically should require classes like ccm or GT3 or whatever to make it actually fair. But then different internet speeds and monitor lag is also influencing it. All stuff that would annoy the shit out of me if I actually played much MP, even before proper competitive MP.
MP is just prone to be exploited in every way possible, beginner levels to supposed pros. MP partially sucks, because you never know if there is not something fishy going on with apparantly much better players.
Also watched a Wirtual Trackmania video about inputs. He made it quite easy to understand how input methods can have a big impact there.
Same I guess with regular driving games, where wheel vs controller vs even regular keyboard is probably also quite different, and basically should require classes like ccm or GT3 or whatever to make it actually fair. But then different internet speeds and monitor lag is also influencing it. All stuff that would annoy the shit out of me if I actually played much MP, even before proper competitive MP.
MP is just prone to be exploited in every way possible, beginner levels to supposed pros. MP partially sucks, because you never know if there is not something fishy going on with apparantly much better players.
Crayon
Member
Not cheating leads cheating by 10 to 1.
It's good to read a lot of the answers in here. I've been conflicted over it lately.
I think I have three main gripes about it. First, games are made intending to use a pivoting device for directions. Two, it has opened the door for silly s*** like the cros-up. Three, it it trivializes inputs for a lot of normal moves and also joystick techniques.
One thing I would like to see is either games, or the socd requirements, insert neutral frames when you have clearly crossed neutral with none.
It's good to read a lot of the answers in here. I've been conflicted over it lately.
I think I have three main gripes about it. First, games are made intending to use a pivoting device for directions. Two, it has opened the door for silly s*** like the cros-up. Three, it it trivializes inputs for a lot of normal moves and also joystick techniques.
One thing I would like to see is either games, or the socd requirements, insert neutral frames when you have clearly crossed neutral with none.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Seems like more of learning curve/period of having to get accustomed to such a different style, for the buttons only arcade controller.
I’d call that a disadvantage in comparison to the traditional arcade stick that everyone and their mother is familiar with.
I’d call that a disadvantage in comparison to the traditional arcade stick that everyone and their mother is familiar with.
docchicken
Member
No, it's not a directional pad. It allows simultaneous opposite directional inputs in games designed to be played with a lever. It's cheating, and virtually every pro fighting game player agrees that it's cheating.
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
I hope you're going to reply to everyone else in the thread to tell them you think they're wrong too.
analog_future
Resident Crybaby
I'll be sure to circle back on July 27th, 2054 to make sure I get my vote in on this pressing topic.
Solidus_T
Member
Depends on the game. In general, it is absolutely cheating, since most arcade games have been designed for a lever, meaning you cannot hit left and right or up and down at the same time. Some newer fighting games like Under Night series have been designed with keyboard players in mind. Virtually all of the pros, old head players, etc have weighed in on this fundamental fact that these types of controllers allow players to do things that are impossible and the games were just not designed for.
I also see a lot of scrubby arguments in this thread about "you still have to get good." That is not the point. You still have to be a skilled baseball player to hit a homerun with a corked bat. That doesn't mean a corked bat is not cheating.
I also see a lot of scrubby arguments in this thread about "you still have to get good." That is not the point. You still have to be a skilled baseball player to hit a homerun with a corked bat. That doesn't mean a corked bat is not cheating.
docchicken
Member
They are wrong , full stop. At low skill levels these won't carry players much, but at an intermediate and high level these are atrocious. I don't need to reply every person, however.I hope you're going to reply to everyone else in the thread to tell them you think they're wrong too.
I can, however, post the adamant opinion of an Evo champ and veteran Tekken player.
Everyone in the community also reacted similarly over a decade ago, including Aris himself.
Solidus_T
Member
I was going to post these same vids! Multiple time EVO Champ by the way
Also EVO/SBO champ Daigo, EVO/SBO Champ Tokido, TWT champ Super Akouma all have said it is cheating and they use these controllers now due to the rules allowing it. Many more OGs have stated this as well, but people want to ge an edge at home. For tournament play, the trouble is that people play on the controller that comes with their console.
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docchicken
Member
Apologies to double post, but this is the essence. This point is also being made by Aris in the video I posted. Tokido also has similar statements on these as well as jdcr and knee, who *wasn't allowed to use his* due to the fact that it would have further cemented his dominance at the time.
In conclusion, these controllers are absolutely cheating.
docchicken
Member
It's the same principle as having two directional inputs.
The games aren't designed for this. Ex: Super Turbo HD Remix on ps3 allowed the analog stick and dpad to be simultaneously used. This lead to an insane setup involving e Honda and his oicho throw where he could store the charge for the throw while moving forward and blocking.
Another example: Korean back dash short cut in Tekken that involves simply holding back and hitting forward and down.
MegatronActivate
Neo Member
SOCD stands for simultaneous opposing cardinal directions
An SOCD cleaner prevents controllers from registering opposite inputs simultaneously. For example, with a hitbox, which is a fighting game controller that has all buttons, you can press back and forward at the same time, which may enable you to block in both directions when playing games like Street Fighter, but because most if not all hitboxes have an SOCD cleaner, only one direction registers. More specifically, pressing back and forward at the same time would result in neutral. As for up and down, the result would be up.
I dont know where some of you come up with your arguments. Most if not all leverless have it built. And most tournaments you need a compliant leverless .capcom as an example put up some new rules on the sodc .Some players dont care some do. But on pad you can also input 2 opposite directions as an example using the dpad and analogs. Its not cheating just a different controller option
An SOCD cleaner prevents controllers from registering opposite inputs simultaneously. For example, with a hitbox, which is a fighting game controller that has all buttons, you can press back and forward at the same time, which may enable you to block in both directions when playing games like Street Fighter, but because most if not all hitboxes have an SOCD cleaner, only one direction registers. More specifically, pressing back and forward at the same time would result in neutral. As for up and down, the result would be up.
I dont know where some of you come up with your arguments. Most if not all leverless have it built. And most tournaments you need a compliant leverless .capcom as an example put up some new rules on the sodc .Some players dont care some do. But on pad you can also input 2 opposite directions as an example using the dpad and analogs. Its not cheating just a different controller option
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Solidus_T
Member
The trouble now is that, in order to get more people into fighting games, companies like Hitbox have *sponsored* tournaments, bringing in more players. The fundamental problem at the end of the day is money. The devs need money, and therefor they will promote what earns them more money. I say just use a leverless controller now since it's not against the rules - it's sad, but people will start to realize when Ryu throws out 4 frame supers or you can SS both directions after a forced crouch in Tekken, breaking the game.
eNT1TY
Member
As long as simultaneous opposite directional button presses default to neutral standing position and only one full directional input is recognized along with its corresponding diagonal when applicable then there is no issue.
Edit: Or what
MegatronActivate
said, beat me to the punch with a better explanation.
Edit: Or what
MegatronActivate
said, beat me to the punch with a better explanation.
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Solidus_T
Member
Absolutely! Even people bring in their custom pads that have shit like L2 mapped to an additional up input for SFV and probably SFVI tournaments. The death of arcades has ushered in an era of the snakiest players ever. Thankfully most of these people are scrubs, save for Daigo who used an extra cheating SOCD hitbox.
I still think it is hilarious that Knee was barred form using one, yet Super Akouma gets sponsored and carries it to TWT finals
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docchicken
Member
Controllers were allowed in tournaments specifically because they were packed in with home consoles that fighting games were ported to. You weren't going to exclude players who used the device that their console came with.
Addressing other stuff you wrote, how easy do you think it is to enforce these? There were tournaments where people discovered (too late) that contestants pads contained 'cheat' buttons like mapping directions to shoulder buttons.
In short, SOCD cleaners do not resolve the issue. You can use your controller, but just be firmly aware it is a cheating device. Hell, I play tekken on keyboard sometimes; that's fuckin cheating.
docchicken
Member
No there still is an issue. In addition to the point I already made addressing this, allow me to make another. Neutral is induced by a state of not pressing anything, simply. Why does a cleaned wasd-type input get a button combination for "neutral?" That's unfair, I don't have that on my lever.As long as simultaneous opposite directional button presses default to neutral standing position and only one full directional input is recognized along with its corresponding diagonal when applicable then there is no issue.
Edit: Or what
Etc. etc. I can keep going. Fundamentally these games were not designed for cheating (mostly PC) players to circumvent practice.
MegatronActivate
Neo Member
Friend that can happen with any controller. But the advantages are being address by the sodc cleaner for leverless. Now if tournament organizers check thats another story. Some pads had macros for instance. From experience on playing on all 3 depends and know how leverless work it isnt cheating
a multicultural team of v
Member
I think the bigger discussion here isn't about levers per se but that competitive video games in general just need to grow balls and actually define standards for competition that don't change as the wind blows. I understand that limiting """"choice"""" is video game AIDS to some people but frankly sometimes arbitrary decisions just have to be made and limitations exist just to be limitations. Actual sports do it all the time because it is essential to consistent competition.
In this case they just need to decide, is the intent of fighting games to be competition between two contestants based on the spirit of arcade competition - meaning joysticks - or at the very least spirit of console competition - meaning gamepads too - or is it meant to be two people competing using literally any method possible even if it completely depreciates the entirely of fighting game history? Like anyone can come up with some dumb fuck method of input and no matter what it has to be allowed because god forbid you tell someone they have to play a video game with a specific controller?
This discussion feels like asking if metal bats in major league baseball would be cheating... it doesn't matter because baseball has already decided to play with wooden bats and that is that. If someone comes up with stone bats or plastic bats or diamond bats it doesn't matter because they are playing with wooden bats.
In this case they just need to decide, is the intent of fighting games to be competition between two contestants based on the spirit of arcade competition - meaning joysticks - or at the very least spirit of console competition - meaning gamepads too - or is it meant to be two people competing using literally any method possible even if it completely depreciates the entirely of fighting game history? Like anyone can come up with some dumb fuck method of input and no matter what it has to be allowed because god forbid you tell someone they have to play a video game with a specific controller?
This discussion feels like asking if metal bats in major league baseball would be cheating... it doesn't matter because baseball has already decided to play with wooden bats and that is that. If someone comes up with stone bats or plastic bats or diamond bats it doesn't matter because they are playing with wooden bats.
docchicken
Member
That's nice you have played on them. So have I. It doesn't change the fact that it is fundamentally still a cheating device. The games were not designed with this type of input in mind at all.
Even with SOCD cleaning, a wasd player has access to things lever players objectively do not, like the crouch-sidestep into the foreground issue in Tekken. Even though this is an issue with the game, the controller circumvents it. There are even more example than the myriad ones I gave itt. Can keep going
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