• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

AMD Rembrandt specs revealed: powerful APUs that might fit into gaming handhelds like Steam Deck

iQuasarLV

Member
Wow, you really are invested in Nvidia.

Sure, let's completely ignore that AMD (and Intel) have to cram their iGPUs onto the same die as the CPU. Let's ignore how little power iGPUs use. Let's ignore that the entire point of iGPUs is to be 'good enough for most people'. Let's ignore that dGPUs get their own section of devices for cooling (often with separate cooling these days). Let's ignore that the additional cost of APUs over CPUs is tiny compared to a dGPU. Do you know what there are for people who want to try and play at/near max settings? dGPUs.

Nvidia (and AMD, and in the future Intel) all have greater power and heat envelopes for their dGPUs as they aren't next to the CPU/APU.

You come across as very dishonest. You know that iGPUs and dGPUs are different things and why both continue to exist. Well, perhaps you don't and are an idiot, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just call you obtuse.

I don't know what planet you are on, but I suggest you come back to Earth.
Sure lets resort to personal attacks because I just plain disagree with you.

Am I invested in Nvidia? Remind me again, how many options are out there that advertise products for gaming?
Oh that's right two. So if AMD is fucking over its customer base I have one reference point of competition to point to. Suuure that is being dishonest.
  • Does Nvidia whack off 50% of their TDP envelope to fit a enthusiast class GPU into a mobile footprint and TDP envelope? Sure do.
  • Did AMD shrink their nodes form 7nm to 6nm freeing more overhead for thermal footprint. Sure did.
  • Does AMD have a 16 CU desktop card that they KNOW they could fit into an APU and offer 1080p/60 gaming without a cheap shot to their customers? Do they instead choose to offer it as a desktop discrete GPU for $200 instead of losing profit by pairing it with a Ryzen inside a single option? Sure do.
  • Could they reduce the overhead from 8c to 6c on the CPU side to make room for more GPU cores? Sure could.
  • Do morons such as yourself resort to personal attacks because information is one click away, and instead don't want to double check their history / benchmarks of AMD's historically abysmal gaming performance in their APUS. Sure do.
  • Who is being dishonest here? Is AMD being continually dishonest by marketing these APUs as gaming capable when they barely break 20fps at 1080p in everything but esports titles? They sure as fuck are.
I would not even be in here commenting if AMD's marketing team had more than two brain cells and omitted gaming from the whole thing. But CES 2022 has shown me they are milking a dead cow with one hand and continuing to enable scalpers with the other and fisting cash from both ends. All because people like you give them benefit of the doubt when you wear rose colored blinders of nostalgia about their yesteryear and being the continual underdog to Intel.

Intel is no less to blame whenever they try to slap gaming capable marketing shit on their APUs because they can get to a menu screen of a game but nothing they have would be called gaming capable.

But shit here you go a competent review of an AMD APU at the high end from last generation.
Looks like AMD is stuck in 2015 when it comes to APU gaming performance. Never mind the games that can run on a tablet such as R6 and Fortnite. GTAV and Cyberpunk really tell you just how much gaming performance these supposed gaming APUs have. Now figure in the 65% uplift to RDNA2 and you are still at the performance level of a dGPU from 2015. THIS is where I get my whole argument that AMD is holding back and milking a market devoid of any real competition, just like Intel did for 10 goddamn years before they got their comeupins in 2017. But hey,
 

Kokoloko85

Member
3DS sold more than PSP.

Sony won’t make a handheld because 1) It’s a crowded market with a clear leader (Nintendo). And 2) because all of their first party developers are working on PS5 or PSVR2 games. The Vita development bandwidth is now being used for VR. A business they can drive massive adoption in unlike the handheld market.

Your 2nd point isnt valid because the whole point Im making is first party doesnt need to develop exclusive portable games for a psp3 because like Switch and Steamdeck, they can play current PC/console games like Steamdeck will.
Switch and Steamdeck changed the industry.

So Sony or Xbox wont need seperate studios making portable exclusive games anymore. They can just downgrade their library like how Steamdeck and weaker PC’s do.

PSP sold 81million units
3DS as of November 2021 has sold 76 million.

Your 1st point also doesnt mean other other companies cant sell portables. Its not overcrowded its just Nintendo.
Nintendo has always dominated the portable market but PSP sold really well and Steamdeck is joining in.
 

FStubbs

Member
Your 2nd point isnt valid because the whole point Im making is first party doesnt need to develop exclusive portable games for a psp3 because like Switch and Steamdeck, they can play current PC/console games like Steamdeck will.
Switch and Steamdeck changed the industry.

So Sony or Xbox wont need seperate studios making portable exclusive games anymore. They can just downgrade their library like how Steamdeck and weaker PC’s do.

PSP sold 81million units
3DS as of November 2021 has sold 76 million.

Your 1st point also doesnt mean other other companies cant sell portables. Its not overcrowded its just Nintendo.
Nintendo has always dominated the portable market but PSP sold really well and Steamdeck is joining in.
I don't know if Steamdeck will do much - it has potential but I don't think they're making enough of them to gore Nintendo like a lot of people wanted them to.

Sony might be too gunshy to ever go back into portables.

Microsoft would be the one to watch though. Once they can get a portable that gets closer to Series S, I think they would seriously consider it.
 

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
So Sony or Xbox wont need seperate studios making portable exclusive games anymore. They can just downgrade their library like how Steamdeck and weaker PC’s do.
Ryan Reynolds Reaction GIF


That strategy would basically invalidate the idea of making a portable gaming machine in the first place.
If the portable machine doesn't have exclusive titles like the PSP and DS did then it's pointless. It's no different than porting your console exclusives to PC or powerful mobile phones.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
I don't know if Steamdeck will do much - it has potential but I don't think they're making enough of them to gore Nintendo like a lot of people wanted them to.

Sony might be too gunshy to ever go back into portables.

Microsoft would be the one to watch though. Once they can get a portable that gets closer to Series S, I think they would seriously consider it.
Steamdeck might not do much, but the tech and being able to play a big library from day 1 is what Xbox and Playstation can do with their library on the go
 

FireFly

Member
Does AMD have a 16 CU desktop card that they KNOW they could fit into an APU and offer 1080p/60 gaming without a cheap shot to their customers? Do they instead choose to offer it as a desktop discrete GPU for $200 instead of losing profit by pairing it with a Ryzen inside a single option? Sure do.
AMD doesn't have a DDR5 platform in the PC space, though, and with the potential cost of a new platform + DDR5, consumers would probably just be better off buying the 6500 XT. On the laptop side, AMD could have offered more, but it seems they focused on reducing development costs/complexity, by having one monolithic chip to cover all bases.
 
Last edited:

Kokoloko85

Member
Ryan Reynolds Reaction GIF


That strategy would basically invalidate the idea of making a portable gaming machine in the first place.
If the portable machine doesn't have exclusive titles like the PSP and DS did then it's pointless. It's no different than porting your console exclusives to PC or powerful mobile phones.

But thats what Steamdeck is doing. No exclusives. Nintendo basically put all their eggs in 1 basket and has all their studios making games for 1 system. The next Switch will probably play all the next gen games dowmgraded but better than Switch does with Witcher 3

I dont think portables need exclusives anymore because the tech is up there to play Console/PC quality games.
PSP, DS, Gameboy etc were never close to the console quality
 

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
But thats what Steamdeck is doing
But that's Valve, they almost don't even make games anymore, and their revenue comes from selling third party games.

I dont think portables need exclusives anymore because the tech is up there to play Console/PC quality games.
PSP, DS, Gameboy etc were never close to the console quality
But then again, making a portable device becomes pointless in that scenario.
As of today, the portable device must have an unique feature that allows unique games to be made for it, such as the DS having two screens or the PSVita having a back rubbing area.

Steam Deck is more like a portable PC than anything else.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
But that's Valve, they almost don't even make games anymore, and their revenue comes from selling third party games.


But then again, making a portable device becomes pointless in that scenario.
As of today, the portable device must have an unique feature that allows unique games to be made for it, such as the DS having two screens or the PSVita having a back rubbing area.

Steam Deck is more like a portable PC than anything else.

Personally Im more interested in playing the console quality games on the go then features like DS or Vita. The reason I got Switch 1st year was because the games are Nintendo best output, not handheld quality games. Not saying Nintendo’s handheld games arent good, but Id rather Luigi’s Mansion 3 then Luigi’s Mansion 2, or Mario Odessy then Super Mario 3D land etc. It might be personal preference but its what Im interested in.

I wasnt interested in the 3DS, I only got one to hack It and have all Nintendo handhelds on the go, like Golden Sun, Snes collection.
Yeah it had great games and I have the top games on their, but having a Switch is so much better. I only got a Vita to play my PS4 games on the go.

Switch doesnt have any unique features like the DS/3DS or Vita, but its the 1st handheld in a long time that can play console like games for e.g BOTW, Mario Odessyy, FireEmblem, Console Smash, which is what I want more.

Having Elden Ring, Ratchet n Clank, God of War Ragnarok, Spiderman 2, GT7, Final Fantasy 16, Persona 6 on the go is gonna be a much bigger selling point than playing portable exclusive games like FF Crisis Core, God of War Ghost of Sparta, Daxter etc. And personally for me much more appealing.

The tech is getting there so why not have console quality games on the go. Only reason Id get a Steamdeck is so I can play current/next gen games on the go. Ill be using that for 3rd party games until Switch 2
 
Last edited:

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
Personally Im more interested in playing the console quality games on the go then features like DS or Vita. The reason I got Switch 1st year was because the games are Nintendo best output, not handheld quality games. Not saying Nintendo’s handheld games arent good, but Id rather Luigi’s Mansion 3 then Luigi’s Mansion 2, or Mario Odessy then Super Mario 3D land etc. It might be personal preference but its what Im interested in.

I wasnt interested in the 3DS, I only got one to hack It and have all Nintendo handhelds on the go, like Golden Sun, Snes collection.
Yeah it had great games and I have the top games on their, but having a Switch is so much better. I only got a Vita to play my PS4 games on the go.

Switch doesnt have any unique features like the DS/3DS or Vita, but its the 1st handheld in a long time that can play console like games for e.g BOTW, Mario Odessyy, FireEmblem, Console Smash, which is what I want more.

Having Elden Ring, Ratchet n Clank, God of War Ragnarok, Spiderman 2, GT7, Final Fantasy 16, Persona 6 on the go is gonna be a much bigger selling point than playing portable exclusive games like FF Crisis Core, God of War Ghost of Sparta, Daxter etc. And personally for me much more appealing.

The tech is getting there so why not have console quality games on the go. Only reason Id get a Steamdeck is so I can play current/next gen games on the go. Ill be using that for 3rd party games until Switch 2
Yeah the Switch is the best of both worlds, the balanced choice.

It makes me sad that Nintendo might never make portables like the DS again, though.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
Can and will are two different things. I don't think Sony would, but MS would.

Yeah of course. I mean the potential is there much more than before.
If MS dips in, Sony would more likely join again. Bigger gaming brand, success with the PSP etc
 

Kokoloko85

Member
Yeah the Switch is the best of both worlds, the balanced choice.

It makes me sad that Nintendo might never make portables like the DS again, though.

Maybe they will add more unique features with the Switch 2 now that they are way more comfortable. They might go for dual screen or something unique in an old school Nintendo fashion
 
Last edited:

Tams

Member
and Steamdeck is joining in.

Hold your horses there. Exactly zero have currently been sold and it's been delayed twice.

I mean, you'll get some Internet points if you're right, but if your wrong you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.
 

FStubbs

Member
Yeah of course. I mean the potential is there much more than before.
If MS dips in, Sony would more likely join again. Bigger gaming brand, success with the PSP etc
Possibly but I think they'd be stuck until the PS6 generation. Microsoft already has scalable configurations this gen with Series X/S. I think it would more difficult for Sony to do it this gen. But not impossible of course.
 
Last edited:

scydrex

Member
MS with the gamepass could do it... maybe if they release a cheap or $200 portable maybe. Don't know about the price because or Series S being $300 but it's a console not a portable machine. Sony maybe but don't think so... maybe. PSP sold well but the Vita with the micro sd and other stuff they could have donde better if they have taken another approach.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
Hold your horses there. Exactly zero have currently been sold and it's been delayed twice.

I mean, you'll get some Internet points if you're right, but if your wrong you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I think they sold out quick. Im not saying its gonna be a global success. Im just mentioning the tech is out there to make current gen games for portable etc
 

Kokoloko85

Member
Possibly but I think they'd be stuck until the PS6 generation. Microsoft already has scalable configurations this gen with Series X/S. I think it would more difficult for Sony to do it this gen. But not impossible of course.

Yeah maybe PS6 gen will be better. The tech is only gonna get better and better. Im not even saying they will go ahead to release it but the tech is getting better and better for it.

True MS has the scalability for it but I think Playstation can do it too because they have titles like God of War Ragnarok/Horizon 2, GT7 etc playing on PS4-PS4pro/PS5 etc and most 3rd party are already use to it with PC/Steam playing on low end to high end PC’s etc
 

iQuasarLV

Member
AMD doesn't have a DDR5 platform in the PC space, though, and with the potential cost of a new platform + DDR5, consumers would probably just be better off buying the 6500 XT. On the laptop side, AMD could have offered more, but it seems they focused on reducing development costs/complexity, by having one monolithic chip to cover all bases.
AMD did have a DDR5 desktop GPU option until 2019 with the RX 500 series. Wasn't until the 5700XT did they move on to the DDR6 format. Hell, I would be more excited about this APU if it could push RX 580 performance numbers. At least that would be 1080~1440p gaming territory for a few years.

Intel is nipping hard on their heels with the new Xe iGPU and AMD needs a win moving forward to stay ahead.

As it stands until the 6000 APU releases the best AMD has to offer has gaming performance on par with the GTX960 from 2015. Not a good place to be in right now.
 

FireFly

Member
AMD did have a DDR5 desktop GPU option until 2019 with the RX 500 series. Wasn't until the 5700XT did they move on to the DDR6 format. Hell, I would be more excited about this APU if it could push RX 580 performance numbers. At least that would be 1080~1440p gaming territory for a few years.

Intel is nipping hard on their heels with the new Xe iGPU and AMD needs a win moving forward to stay ahead.

As it stands until the 6000 APU releases the best AMD has to offer has gaming performance on par with the GTX960 from 2015. Not a good place to be in right now.
Yes, but APUs don't have onboard memory, so you would need DDR5 on the motherboard itself. Theoretically, you could also use quad channel DDR4, but then you're talking about a new chipset/socket, which would likely be highly expensive.
 

FStubbs

Member
AMD did have a DDR5 desktop GPU option until 2019 with the RX 500 series. Wasn't until the 5700XT did they move on to the DDR6 format. Hell, I would be more excited about this APU if it could push RX 580 performance numbers. At least that would be 1080~1440p gaming territory for a few years.

Intel is nipping hard on their heels with the new Xe iGPU and AMD needs a win moving forward to stay ahead.

As it stands until the 6000 APU releases the best AMD has to offer has gaming performance on par with the GTX960 from 2015. Not a good place to be in right now.
There's no way that Intel GPU will be cheap. This is Intel we're talking about.
 

Polygonal_Sprite

Gold Member
Your 2nd point isnt valid because the whole point Im making is first party doesnt need to develop exclusive portable games for a psp3 because like Switch and Steamdeck, they can play current PC/console games like Steamdeck will.
Switch and Steamdeck changed the industry.

So Sony or Xbox wont need seperate studios making portable exclusive games anymore. They can just downgrade their library like how Steamdeck and weaker PC’s do.

PSP sold 81million units
3DS as of November 2021 has sold 76 million.

Your 1st point also doesnt mean other other companies cant sell portables. Its not overcrowded its just Nintendo.
Nintendo has always dominated the portable market but PSP sold really well and Steamdeck is joining in.
My bad I could have sworn it hit 80 million a while back. I guess that was Switch.

Let’s hold back before saying Steamdeck has changed the industry. It’s a very expensive, very large and very heavy “handheld” and who knows how the games will run.

Switch will get another massive shot in the arm late this year when Dane releases with Zelda 2. Switch and phones are the dominance I was referring too.

Sony don’t want to blow their PS4 profits on a third attempt at that market especially with VR games to make. They simply don’t have enough studios and I very much doubt UE5 / custom SSD focused third party engines will come to a handheld when they have to drop to 720p on a Zen/4tflop/SSD Series S. I don’t expect many aaa downports to Dane either.

Sony will probably offer a streaming option to their new tiering of PS+ where you can stream your games to a phone with purchasable PS grips just like Xbox is doing. It’s a much less riskier bet than spending a couple of billion on a handheld and a couple of exclusives to launch it.
 

Tams

Member
I think they sold out quick. Im not saying its gonna be a global success. Im just mentioning the tech is out there to make current gen games for portable etc
They sold out of pre-order reservation fees. People have put down insignificant amounts for those; they haven't put down the full payments.

And that looks promising, for sure. They will have decided that the stock they will have is a viable amount, so if that is all reserved that's great.

But they haven't delivered anything yet.
 
Last edited:
As it stands until the 6000 APU releases the best AMD has to offer has gaming performance on par with the GTX960 from 2015. Not a good place to be in right now.
That's sadly still competitive. Intel GPU's are getting better but they are completely absent from the desktop space for instance.

As of alder lake we're still paying $40 extra on desktop parts for a 32 EU intel GPU to come enabled netting you ~750 (intel) GFLOPs. Meanwhile they sell Ryzen 5700G with a 2 TFlop gpu in.

It's hideous.
 
Last edited:

Kokoloko85

Member
My bad I could have sworn it hit 80 million a while back. I guess that was Switch.

Let’s hold back before saying Steamdeck has changed the industry. It’s a very expensive, very large and very heavy “handheld” and who knows how the games will run.

Switch will get another massive shot in the arm late this year when Dane releases with Zelda 2. Switch and phones are the dominance I was referring too.

Sony don’t want to blow their PS4 profits on a third attempt at that market especially with VR games to make. They simply don’t have enough studios and I very much doubt UE5 / custom SSD focused third party engines will come to a handheld when they have to drop to 720p on a Zen/4tflop/SSD Series S. I don’t expect many aaa downports to Dane either.

Sony will probably offer a streaming option to their new tiering of PS+ where you can stream your games to a phone with purchasable PS grips just like Xbox is doing. It’s a much less riskier bet than spending a couple of billion on a handheld and a couple of exclusives to launch it.

I get that and true about steamdeck.
I meant the tech is there where we can have console quality games on portable machines like Switch and Steamdeck.

Sony wont need to make exclusive games, just downgrade like how Steamdeck, Switch and low tier pc’s do. So no need for studios to dedicate for exclusives.
We’ll have to see about UE5 on Steamdeck but I think futute portables will be able to play it

Streaming is another option, its the reason I got a Vita but it will never be as good as local playing
 
Does Nvidia whack off 50% of their TDP envelope to fit a enthusiast class GPU into a mobile footprint and TDP envelope? Sure do.
It's the other way around. No desktop GPU ever operates within its optimal sport in their clock/power curve. They do that for the laptop versions.
Beware of the Max-Q versions that often have worse performance than the regular laptop versions of the lower-end parts, though.


Did AMD shrink their nodes form 7nm to 6nm freeing more overhead for thermal footprint. Sure did.
N6 isn't a shrink of N7.


Does AMD have a 16 CU desktop card that they KNOW they could fit into an APU and offer 1080p/60 gaming without a cheap shot to their customers? Do they instead choose to offer it as a desktop discrete GPU for $200 instead of losing profit by pairing it with a Ryzen inside a single option? Sure do.
No, they can't. Not while using the standard DDR5 / LPDDR5 solutions. The 12CU iGPU in Rembrandt might already be bandwidth limited with some of the fastest DDR5.
VCache might change this game in the future, but it's both too soon and too expensive to put in an APU that usually gets lower margins.

Could they reduce the overhead from 8c to 6c on the CPU side to make room for more GPU cores? Sure could.
Not with the current Zen3 architecture, and without making lots of costly changes that would delay the chip's release. Zen2 used a 4-core CCX but Zen3 uses a 8-core CCX.
 

Tams

Member
I get that and true about steamdeck.
I meant the tech is there where we can have console quality games on portable machines like Switch and Steamdeck.

Sony wont need to make exclusive games, just downgrade like how Steamdeck, Switch and low tier pc’s do. So no need for studios to dedicate for exclusives.
We’ll have to see about UE5 on Steamdeck but I think futute portables will be able to play it

Streaming is another option, its the reason I got a Vita but it will never be as good as local playing
That really depends on how the games are coded and how much effort developers are prepared to put into them.

Some games are and will be coded to take advantage of specific features of a console. Yes, Playstation and Xbox are now both x86, but both have some uncommon hardware and hardware settings that are unlikely to be replicated unless Sony or Microsoft go out of their way to make portable/mobile hardware.

The games could still be ported to more generic x86 hardware, but there may well be significant dips in performance and quality.

But really, all that is ancillary. The main issue is that launching a product as a large company at the scales they do is no mean feat. They invest billions into doing so, from development and manufacturing to support (which can add up). When there's game streaming (not for me, but many do like it) on hardware others are paying to develop, and other endeavours that they'd like to pursue, launching a handheld device might not be so appealing.
 
No, they can't. Not while using the standard DDR5 / LPDDR5 solutions. The 12CU iGPU in Rembrandt might already be bandwidth limited with some of the fastest DDR5.
VCache might change this game in the future, but it's both too soon and too expensive to put in an APU that usually gets lower margins.
I'm sure it's bandwidth limited against dedicated cards as it is, but surely 16 CU would be possible to add even if it started having more of a real-world performance penalty. That certainly didn't stop manufacturers in the past from releasing gimped GPU's.

Just because it can be done doesn't mean it makes business sense though.
Not with the current Zen3 architecture, and without making lots of costly changes that would delay the chip's release. Zen2 used a 4-core CCX but Zen3 uses a 8-core CCX.
They continue to manufacture 4 core chiplets, or just disable them? Ryzen 5300 is quad core as is 5400U, as is Steam Decks Van Gogh chip.

Anyway, I don't think it would make sense to reduce core count to add more GPU.
 
Last edited:
They continue to manufacture 4 core chiplets, or just disable them? Ryzen 5300 is quad core as is 5400U, as is Steam Decks Van Gogh chip.

Ryzen 5300U is actually a Zen2 Renoir with one 4-core CCX disabled, 5400U uses a salvaged Cezanne die with 4 cores and half the L3 disabled, and Van Gogh is Zen2 with only one CCX.
I think only a very small part of the Zen3 Cezanne production ends up with half the cores unusable, which is why the 5400U is the only Zen3 with 4 cores in the market.
 
Gosh darnit by the great chest I hope you're right.
I mean it's technically feasible at this point, a handheld with PS4 level of performance. Something they could bring about by 2023 or (more likely) 2024. Or it would certainly be doable quite soon. PS4 Pro performance? Maybe not in a portable state, but a Polaris design on 6nm is going to be less than half the size of PS5's RDNA2 GPU on the same process, and use way less power. Same goes with the CPU, though they might want to go with a Zen 2 in that case (there are some mobile designs as 8C/8T last a checked), but the clock would be way slower. 4x 11 Gbps GDDR6 (upclockable to 14 Gbps for Pro mode) gets the required bandwidth and capacity but for Pro level performance I think you'd still need to dock for power draw and cooling purposes.

They have to do something about markets like Japan where consoles just aren't a big factor (in markets like India consoles are practically nonexistent) so a portable capable of PS4/PS4 Pro native BC and supporting new releases (likely by 3P primarily) at those levels that can also be played on PS5 via BC (and further boosts due to that), serve as a Remote Play client of PS5 titles the way PS Vita did for PS4 etc., that's something I'd like to think Sony are at least seriously considering if not already working on. I mean they can put resources towards PSVR2 and a new portable would easily have a bigger market appeal than that (no slight towards it; I'm very impressed with what PSVR2 stuff they've shown so far).
 
Cant wait for their phoenix APU. Why are there small number of compute units for RDNA 2 for the APU? Cause of heat?


Intel Arc is looking more decent..


NVIDIA better make their own CPU's.

No more shitty iGPU's from intel and AMD finally done with VEGA, and don't have to sell your kidney for discrete GPU on mobile. Its about time..
 
Last edited:

Dampf

Member
Also Optimus really sucks. Do it HW-vendors, create powerful SOCs for your laptops similar to M1.
 

nominedomine

Gold Member
I mean it's technically feasible at this point, a handheld with PS4 level of performance. Something they could bring about by 2023 or (more likely) 2024. Or it would certainly be doable quite soon. PS4 Pro performance? Maybe not in a portable state, but a Polaris design on 6nm is going to be less than half the size of PS5's RDNA2 GPU on the same process, and use way less power. Same goes with the CPU, though they might want to go with a Zen 2 in that case (there are some mobile designs as 8C/8T last a checked), but the clock would be way slower. 4x 11 Gbps GDDR6 (upclockable to 14 Gbps for Pro mode) gets the required bandwidth and capacity but for Pro level performance I think you'd still need to dock for power draw and cooling purposes.

They have to do something about markets like Japan where consoles just aren't a big factor (in markets like India consoles are practically nonexistent) so a portable capable of PS4/PS4 Pro native BC and supporting new releases (likely by 3P primarily) at those levels that can also be played on PS5 via BC (and further boosts due to that), serve as a Remote Play client of PS5 titles the way PS Vita did for PS4 etc., that's something I'd like to think Sony are at least seriously considering if not already working on. I mean they can put resources towards PSVR2 and a new portable would easily have a bigger market appeal than that (no slight towards it; I'm very impressed with what PSVR2 stuff they've shown so far).
Something that could play the base PS4 games would be perfect already, I don't need more than that. In a small screen it won't matter at all that games would be mostly 1080p and with all the crossgen and indie games it would still be getting new games for a while.

The library of PS1/PS2/PSP/PSV/PS4 would be enormous and Sony would not need to develop any game specifically for this hardware. I bet they could even get away with only 4 Zen 2 cores on this thing give how terrible the Jaguar was.

Among the many reasons why Sony got burned with the Vita is the fact that the Vita required dedicated development for it. Having a way to play PS+ games on a portable would make it a much more interesting proposition.
 
Last edited:

Ozzie666

Member
Something that could play the base PS4 games would be perfect already, I don't need more than that. In a small screen it won't matter at all that games would be mostly 1080p and with all the crossgen and indie games it would still be getting new games for a while.

The library of PS1/PS2/PSP/PSV/PS4 would be enormous and Sony would not need to develop any game specifically for this hardware. I bet they could even get away with only 4 Zen 2 cores on this thing give how terrible the Jaguar was.

Among the many reasons why Sony got burned with the Vita is the fact that the Vita required dedicated development for it. Having a way to play PS+ games on a portable would make it a much more interesting proposition.
Like many, I have often thought this. A portable able to play PS4 games out of the box. From everything I've been told the PS4 scale down is pretty difficult, if they looked at 720 or something. Now if we are talking direct 1 to 1 on 1080p, then I'm not sure how viable that is with battery life?

But I guess the issue is, what is the future state of such a device. We get PS1 to PS4 (minus PS3), but then what? are people going to develop for PS4 or for this device? are there going to be new games, or scaled down PS5 games? It would need some future revenue stream, beyond relying on legacy titles. Does Sony tap into the PC market and easily bring those new games across with pre-defined settings? partner with Steam? Does this device and software get physical store shelf or is it all digital? It's exciting to think about and the Steam Deck is great. But I would have to believe anything we see coming out now from AMD, Sony and AMD could have put an APU together far superior than what Valve did with AMD.

Please make it happen, all of it!
 

nominedomine

Gold Member
Like many, I have often thought this. A portable able to play PS4 games out of the box. From everything I've been told the PS4 scale down is pretty difficult, if they looked at 720 or something. Now if we are talking direct 1 to 1 on 1080p, then I'm not sure how viable that is with battery life?

But I guess the issue is, what is the future state of such a device. We get PS1 to PS4 (minus PS3), but then what? are people going to develop for PS4 or for this device? are there going to be new games, or scaled down PS5 games? It would need some future revenue stream, beyond relying on legacy titles. Does Sony tap into the PC market and easily bring those new games across with pre-defined settings? partner with Steam? Does this device and software get physical store shelf or is it all digital? It's exciting to think about and the Steam Deck is great. But I would have to believe anything we see coming out now from AMD, Sony and AMD could have put an APU together far superior than what Valve did with AMD.

Please make it happen, all of it!
PS4 is still getting games, with that massive library it wouldn't need new games just old releases would be fine and would even be a good incentive for Sony to get more PS1/PS2/PSP games on the store and on PS+.

There are plenty of niche devices outhere, this would be more popular than a lot of them and less demanding new games could still be released for it for years to come.

As far as batery life the Steam Deck is more powerful and seem to be doing fine.
 
Last edited:

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
The Ryzen 7 6800U is looking like a beast, even when compared to Steam Deck's Van Gogh:



https://www.techpowerup.com/img/ffNgnD4WY4gNqBrg.jpg



CPU
Van Gogh: 4-core Zen2 2.4-3.5GHz, 4MB L3
R7 6800U: 8-core Zen3 2.7-4.7GHz, 16MB L3

GPU
Van Gogh: RDNA2 8 CUs @ max 1.6GHz, 1.6TFLOPs, single shader engine / single shader array (?)
R7 6800U: RDNA2 12 CUs @ max 2.2GHz, 3.4 TFLOPs, dual shader engine / single shader array (?)

Memory:
Van Gogh: 128bit LPDDR5 5500MT/s, 88 GB/s
R7 6800U: 128bit LPDDR5 (up to) 6400MT/s, 102.4 GB/s


Power consumption:
Van Gogh: 5-15W
R7 6800U: 15-28W


Of course these new chips aren't made for the same power envelope as Steam Deck's Van Gogh, and at a similar 15W power consumption the 6800U might throttle so much it can't distance itself from Van Gogh.
However, we've seen a number of gaming PC handheld like the AYA Neo using 20W TDP on their SoCs and still getting over 2h of battery life.
I think this is a solid step for Steam Deck targeted APU’s, maybe even better as they expand L3 caches (Infinity Cache / 3D cache …). Anything that helps keep efficiency high and thus lower the clockspeed you need and the external memory bandwidth required to feed the APU is a god send.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Like many, I have often thought this. A portable able to play PS4 games out of the box. From everything I've been told the PS4 scale down is pretty difficult, if they looked at 720 or something. Now if we are talking direct 1 to 1 on 1080p, then I'm not sure how viable that is with battery life?

But I guess the issue is, what is the future state of such a device. We get PS1 to PS4 (minus PS3), but then what? are people going to develop for PS4 or for this device? are there going to be new games, or scaled down PS5 games? It would need some future revenue stream, beyond relying on legacy titles. Does Sony tap into the PC market and easily bring those new games across with pre-defined settings? partner with Steam? Does this device and software get physical store shelf or is it all digital? It's exciting to think about and the Steam Deck is great. But I would have to believe anything we see coming out now from AMD, Sony and AMD could have put an APU together far superior than what Valve did with AMD.

Please make it happen, all of it!
We are a few die shrink and architecture improvements to have something that mixes the performance target of an APU between PS4 Pro and PS5 (performance a bit closer to the former, but feature set maybe quite a bit beyond the latter… in a year or so you will get much better shader cores/more efficient RT support and already you have Zen 3 and soon Zen 4 CPU advancements that bring you a good deal more single thread performance than the current consoles’ Zen 2 cores… which helps keep power consumption down if you target PS5 like CPU performance or slightly less).

Sony may leave it to Steam Deck, but they could have a Switch like hybrid console working reasonably well..: although I would prefer PlayStation developers pushing PS5 specs instead of targeting more and more HW profiles.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
[…] the Vita development bandwidth is now being used for VR. A business they can drive massive adoption in unlike the handheld market.
Yup, unfortunately it is what it is. Portables may not have a huge RoI for them, but it would be lovely if they did :). Portable VR with a cordless PSVR2 update and a PS Vita 2 eh ;)?
 
Last edited:

FireFly

Member
Cant wait for their phoenix APU. Why are there small number of compute units for RDNA 2 for the APU? Cause of heat?
Likely due to memory bandwidth. Rembrandt has a similar amount of available memory bandwidth to Steam Deck, but already with 50% more cores. Those slides indicate AMD needed to improve caching to enable more performance.
 

Frank Horrigan

Neo Member
Will these small and powerful graphics chips signal a resurgence of the handheld market - or one that tries to eat some of Nintendo's market share again, or will this tech be put inside VR headsets to rival the Quest 2?
 
As someone who has been building small form factor HTPCs far longer than it has been popular, Phoenix may finally be the APU for which I’ve been waiting almost 20 years.
 
Last edited:

Calverz

Gold Member
if AMD keeps this trajectory, Microsoft could actually release a Series S handheld in like 3 or 4 years.
the only question is... do they want to? they totally could do it tho seeing how powerful mobile AMD hardware already is today.
games wouldn't even need to be tailored to it if it can simply run the Series S versions of games
Quite frankly that is the dream.
 
Rumors from youtubers are suggesting that AMD will skip RDNA 2 and go straight to RDNA 3 or RDNA 2.5 hybrid for phoenix. Although FSR 2.0 is great, they will need to implement their own DLSS like upscaling to preserve performance by finally having machine learning cores. Intel has this implemented in their own 'APU's" [Raytracing + Machine Learning Cores] aka "XeSS"

Also, they are way behind on the pairing of the generation of CPU with the generation of GPU. Is there an APU with RDNA 1 pairing? RDNA 3 for me seems to be the right choice:
Zen4+RDNA 3 = :lollipop_fire::love:(y):messenger_heart:
with
DDR5+PCIE5+NvME SSD 5GB/SEC-10GB/SEC+Wifi6E+USB4.0+Latest Bluetooth+3D Cache+ Infinity Cache = 🔥🔥:messenger_fire::lollipop_fire:

You are not even asking gaming and you can fucking game baby!!

AMD Zen 4 + RDNA 3: Hadoken! ===> NVIDIA
Intel Raptor Lake\Meteor Lake + ARC-Alchemist: Hadoken !==> NVIDIA

AMD Zen 4 + RDNA 3 + Intel Raptor Lake\Meteor Lake + ARC-Alchemist: Ultraaaa COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOO ====> NVIDIA

RIP old intel iGPU's and good riddance!

Such POWA!!




Console like gaming on mini-pc's and ultra slim laptops for an affordable price!!! 🤤🤤
 
Last edited:
Is it possible for AMD and Intel to make APU's as a standard on desktops and laptops instead of just focusing on increasing CPU performance alone?

-Meaning instead of buying a new motherboard with new CPU's with increase in performance such as: more cores, faster frequency, increase IPC's as a standalone, you do all of that with a built in integrated iGPU with decent number of compute units which have machine learning cores, RT cores and then you can add a discrete GPU with more performance. Only issue might be having the iGPU part work with another manufacturer (example Intel meteorlake- IntelARC-Alchemist iGPU + NVIDIA discrete or AMD discrete GPU) :pie_thinking:

-Is it possible for Intel and AMD to go the M1 Ultra Route with an integrated CPU/GPU(with RT-ML cores)/NPU+GDDR high bandwidth memory and Discrete Graphics Expansion Slot?

-The M1 ultra is designed more like a console if you think about it, so perhaps Intel and AMD will make PC's more jam packed like M1 ultra and Xbox Series/PS5. I am not sure how high bandwidth memory affects general purpose tasks like web browsing, MS word, etc.

I just blew my own mind

 
Last edited:

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
PSP has overall more sales that 3DS so it doesnt mean it will have Vita numbers.
It will have the library, controls and no memory card issues
Exactly how will that library materialize if you need to port-down titles like with the Switch? There's no way for games to 'just work' if they require a completely new performance profile for the handheld.
At minimum the device would need to be natively compatible with one of the existing consoles, else you're just launching another Vita.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
Exactly how will that library materialize if you need to port-down titles like with the Switch? There's no way for games to 'just work' if they require a completely new performance profile for the handheld.
At minimum the device would need to be natively compatible with one of the existing consoles, else you're just launching another Vita.

The library can be like PS4/PS5 store. Just like Steamdeck’s library is Steamgames
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
The library can be like PS4/PS5 store. Just like Steamdeck’s library is Steamgames
You haven't answered my question. If the handheld plays 'modified/lower-spec version of PS games' there IS no library at launch.
Steamdeck is a PC, so it plays PC library (well or not is irrelevant - as PC users don't mind to figure that out on their own).
 
Last edited:

Kokoloko85

Member
You haven't answered my question. If the handheld plays 'modified/lower-spec version of PS games' there IS no library at launch.

It would work like the Steamdeck. You turn it on, log in and can download/buy your steam library games from the store. Or download the ones you already have.

PSP can just have access to the PS5 library to download and buy games. When i first bought it, I downloaded some of my PS4 games
 
Top Bottom