The only FG where I think you can really make that argument is Arcana Heart 3. I don't see the SG chars as exploitative. Cheesecakey as hell yes, but not exploitative. AH3 is exploitative.
(and AH3 is a good game despite this)
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Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 27 - Feb 2 | The Power of Gamers
- Thread starter enzo_gt
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The only FG where I think you can really make that argument is Arcana Heart 3. I don't see the SG chars as exploitative. Cheesecakey as hell yes, but not exploitative. AH3 is exploitative.
(and AH3 is a good game despite this)
To be honest, art style, memes, or a small cast really pale in comparison to my biggest issue with Skullgirls... it's just a boring fighter at a fundamental level.
Skullgirls, despite clearly trying to be some mixture of MvC2 and Guilty Gear, manages to be the complete antithesis of both; its combos are very long and drawn-out, damage is relatively low so these long combos get repeated a lot, and the constant changes, especially those to IPS, do nothing to convince me that the developers have any confidence in their game's design and/or any idea how to make the game actually fun. Skullgirls is full of good-on-paper ideas (IPS, 360 help, unblockable protection, command grabs including the throw command, etc.) that come together to make an incredibly "safe" game. There's no risks in game design, and I get the sense that that is because Lab Zero is so afraid of making an "unbalanced game".
Meanwhile, MvC2 has more variety in every match despite there being around 10 viable characters in a cast of 56, glitches that lead to unblockables, 1-frame normals, and damn near unreactable resets that can destroy an entire team in seconds. Meanwhile, Guilty Gear is a game where the developers' idea of "balance" includes a grappler having an unblockable full-screen hard knockdown that lasts longer than a normal hard knockdown, a character that is entirely built around free alpha counters even though every other character needs to spend 50% meter or a burst to escape blockstun, a character with a command grab that combos into itself, and in general your only option on wake-up is "time to guess, asshole", and it totally fucking works.
I hope it's clear that this is all just my opinion, and if you don't think that Skullgirls is boring, then I'm not telling you you're wrong.
Skullgirls, despite clearly trying to be some mixture of MvC2 and Guilty Gear, manages to be the complete antithesis of both; its combos are very long and drawn-out, damage is relatively low so these long combos get repeated a lot, and the constant changes, especially those to IPS, do nothing to convince me that the developers have any confidence in their game's design and/or any idea how to make the game actually fun. Skullgirls is full of good-on-paper ideas (IPS, 360 help, unblockable protection, command grabs including the throw command, etc.) that come together to make an incredibly "safe" game. There's no risks in game design, and I get the sense that that is because Lab Zero is so afraid of making an "unbalanced game".
Meanwhile, MvC2 has more variety in every match despite there being around 10 viable characters in a cast of 56, glitches that lead to unblockables, 1-frame normals, and damn near unreactable resets that can destroy an entire team in seconds. Meanwhile, Guilty Gear is a game where the developers' idea of "balance" includes a grappler having an unblockable full-screen hard knockdown that lasts longer than a normal hard knockdown, a character that is entirely built around free alpha counters even though every other character needs to spend 50% meter or a burst to escape blockstun, a character with a command grab that combos into itself, and in general your only option on wake-up is "time to guess, asshole", and it totally fucking works.
I hope it's clear that this is all just my opinion, and if you don't think that Skullgirls is boring, then I'm not telling you you're wrong.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I'd say DOA is also exploitative.
One fun fact which this reminded me of is that Melty Blood is based off of an adult visual novel. Not much to do with anything but man that's weird.
And obviously I disagree that SG is boring, but that really is a matter of preference.
Smash 4 seems to be pushing heavily for female characters (or ones with swappable gender) this time, which is awesome. Makes complete sense both on a "balance" level but also on a business-side "lots of girls own the 3DS" level.
I'd say DOA is also exploitative.
One fun fact which this reminded me of is that Melty Blood is based off of an adult visual novel. Not much to do with anything but man that's weird.
And obviously I disagree that SG is boring, but that really is a matter of preference.
It's not if by adult you mean porn.
Actually I was saying the developers were demeaning you, the audience, by designing these characters like Bugs Bunny hentai because they thought it was what you wanted
Osu 16 Bit
Member
All girl cast defintely has a stigma. I think it's weird and unappealing and I typically main girl characters.
Got damn
SG has some of my favorite character design in a fighter but I'd be lying if I said if it wasn't exploitative.
Now see if they put in generic designs like Annie in the game from the DLC vote then yes I would've agreed with this statement.
I said wow.
I want to say SG is exploitive but who is being exploited? People who watch sexualised American cartoons? That's such a low demographic to exploit.
I think there's some perception bias there. The only game I can think of that's close to a 50/50 balance is Dead or Alive, and that game routinely gets called exploitative and people joke about how the male characters may not as well even exist. I suspect that if a FG's roster has more than 25% females in it, it's going to catch crap.
There's a bit of a difference. It's not the focal point of the visual novel (thank God, as the scenes are awful) and I suspect the sex scenes are only there because of how they drive sales in the market they're sold (which is kind of sad, but that's a whole another debate).
Milf jav? The hell is that????? The struggle is real in Japan. If they had made arcade machines for Ultimate, I guarantee you it would still be relevant as it is here.
This is a beautiful post, nails on the head everywhere. Though I would argue at the very lowest level, FGs are much easier to pick up and play and understand, even control wise, than RTS'.
This persecutory mentality really, really, really needs to go away. Marvel doesn't grab me for the same reasons I am interested in Skullgirls. There are really parallels, but looking at all of the clear roadblocks in appeal SG has that Marvel doesn't makes this sound pretty dumb. You extending this to KoF is even sillier because there is even less in common. Not everything comes down to market share dictating what people want to play just because of what is available. If SF disappears tomorrow I won't pick up KoF.Skullgirls would have done fine if it wasn't for Marvel 3. Just like KOF would be much more heavily played if it wasn't for SF4 hogging the limelight and player interest.
Capcom games hoover up interest in other 2D titles. It has been like since SF2.
Its tournament life has been crippled by a lot of factors though. I still remain optimistic that in the long run it'll pull through as a tournament fighter.
And nothing is stopping anyone from picking it up. If you don't like the art, fine. But otherwise, what's stopping you? Diversify and play more fighters, don't sit there playing one game for five years.
I really thought we were past this sort of logic.
Dat accuracy. You pretty much outlined why I like Marvel so much. Cheap shit should be cheap. Find ways to excite the player from the jump. Let the players proliferate and have their creativity direct the metagame.
Going back to the previous discussion in this thread, balance is really far down the list on what I need to enjoy a fighter, and Skullgirls is very by-the-numbers in that regard. Mechanically, it doesn't really have that x-factor (no pun intended) because it builds itself upon other games pretty explicitly, initially even throwing shade at the latest MvC and trying to gain legitimacy through comparisons with MvC2. That's fine and all, but when you try to make that draw for people as to why they should play your game, it eventually comes down to pitching the art style, which is obviously the biggest roadblock in appeal and what defines it's uniqueness after you're done comparing its mechanics to MvC2 and CvS.
Marvel 2 wasn't relevant.
But I mean a lot of pieces of media have "sex scenes" in them. A lot of seinen manga I read have all had sex and nudity one way or the other (like Berserk) but they're aren't pornography.
I remember someone mentioning that cash prize pots are illegal in Japan or something. Something to do with gambling, money laundering, and yakuza. I have no proof that this is true and am too lazy to look it up.
DoA gets called out on being exploitive because of the design of the female characters as well as the promotional material for it. It was pretty much marketed as a TnA game especially in the Itagaki era.
The DOA volleyball games didn't help either... it wasn't as bad until that game came out.
The DOA volleyball games didn't help either... it wasn't as bad until that game came out.
I believe I've heard that as well, but also have no idea if it's true or not.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I think there's merit to this. It's much easier to get away with extreme character designs without your game being perceived as weird or creepy if you represent a variety of extremes.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Soul Calibur IV got a fair bit of flak for this, too.
Pandering is actually not something I care about at all, but when someone acts like people don't like SG because it has no dudes I just gotta laugh. The problem isn't that there are only female characters, however, that there are only female characters is indicative of the problem of pandering in the game. To ignore it is just really annoying.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I might try and learn it if I ever pick up marvel 3 again.
You mean the entire cast of loli female characters isn't obvious enough? Game is completely exploitative of the otaku culture.
Come on now son.
Never even seen an AH match so idk
It's definitely an otaku's wet dream. Like Neptunia. Aggressively cute characters that's essentially a variation of the 'moe' staple wearing usually schoolgirl, shrine priestess, swimmer or something with risque stockings.
extremely unappealing character design
I think we need to agree on what the word exploitative means.
It's too bad the Chris Redfield sailor outfit never made it to MvC3. Would have been hilarious.
Probably that is what is causing the disagreements around here.
Edit: Silky one picture was enough man... if Viscant was browsing this page he would've had a heart attack.
idk When I look at AH character designs I'm like "Ok this game has a bunch of characters in that are inspired by a bunch of female anime archetypes" I don't think "This game like DoA exploits women."
That's promotional art that afaik not even in the product.
That's promotional art that afaik not even in the product.
It's exploitative of "cute young girls" if you want to get that specific into it. Female anime archetypes are generally exploits of women to begin with.
At least some of the Soul Calibur V Japanese promos poked fun at this.
in games media women in games are either aggressively sexy or aggressively cute. doesn't help some characters in AH are provocative/suggestive poses. I would argue that's OBJECTIFYING women, not explotative
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Ivy boobs, hehe.
"unfairly or cynically using another person or group for profit or advantage"
again I don't know anything about AH so I won't comment on that, but it's pretty clear that SG markets women in a sexualized manner - it's marketing, it has nothing at all to do with the game itself, and it's exploitive.
You're supposed to wander around Tokyo exchanging your prizes with people who are after exactly what you have, resulting in you getting a key item that progresses the story, or something of higher value that you can trade in at a pawn shop. Dat Japanese game design.
Karsticles
Member
I think the main problem with a lot of all-female games is that the characters are just poorly designed. Most of them are borderline indistinguishable outside of hair color and bust size in Arcana Hearts. Street Fighter ladies are all diverse and interesting looking. I really don't think Skullgirls has the all-female problem. It has four problems:
1) Small cast size.
2) The art style is unappealing for many people.
3) The character designs are too "out there" for most folks. Most games have a large cast of normal folks and then a few weirdos. Skullgirls did it backwards.
4) The game is cursed.
Only one of these will change over time.
1) Small cast size.
2) The art style is unappealing for many people.
3) The character designs are too "out there" for most folks. Most games have a large cast of normal folks and then a few weirdos. Skullgirls did it backwards.
4) The game is cursed.
Only one of these will change over time.
But those aren't just cute young girls they're representative of characters you seen in your favorite anime or manga. Going by that Sailor Moon and Cardcaptors Sakura is exploitative.
I would say though that AH is different from something like Sailor Moon because it's made to target people in the fandom of the latter which happens to be grown ass Otaku men despite Sailor Moon being primarily made for a younger female demographic.
And Voldo crotch.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
The entire AH3 cast looks like they took a deck of cards with anime fetishes written on them, then for each character they shuffled and drew a few cards, combined all those features and called it a day.
This was also the design process for Blazblue characters, but they used general anime character traits instead of just sexual ones.
This was also the design process for Blazblue characters, but they used general anime character traits instead of just sexual ones.