I guess that's true. Him trying to rewrite history to a degree in Waters of Mars and it going sideways on him anyway really underscores his change as well.
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Doctor Who: Time Of The Doctor |OT| 11's hour is over now... The clock is striking 12
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I guess that's true. Him trying to rewrite history to a degree in Waters of Mars and it going sideways on him anyway really underscores his change as well.
They're both (treated like) rebounds. Also, the whole unrequited love/crush angle.
Well he does lie about his age, as it's on record that he has no idea how old he actually is. I'm sure there's a line in EOT Pt1 where he says he's been on the run for centuries, although maybe I'm just imagining it.
obin_gam
Member
I took that line as a reference to all his regenerations.
10 Still went nearly off the rails bonkers in a very short period of time even though people like Martha turned out ok. He didn't have a terribly huge amount of tragedy honestly as even Rose ended up having a happy ending in the end. Donna was the only one who got screwed.
Not arguing that Tenant did not do a great job with those two scenes, but there's a huge difference between simply regenerating (and we had no evidence that 10 thought it would really be his final death), and 11 finding his actual tomb and confronting the end of his actual life throughout all of his regeneration. The magnitude isn't even comparable, even with 11 having lived out his life (and dealt with loss much more eloquently than 10 ever did).
And the length of 10's life doesn't really matter when you consider that 9 was the closest to the trauma of the time wars and had an even shorter life than 10, yet he still found it within himself to celebrate his time as this version of himself and to be bigger than his sense of self in the moment.
In contrast from 10, I can't recall 11 not embracing death with dignity even from a very young age (almost to the point of fatalism). From under a year in 'The Big Bang'From, Let's Kill Hitler (in fact this episode deserves special mention for how wonderfully Matt acts this scene right down to 11 smiling with a minute left to live),'The Rings Of Akhaten', and I'm probably forgetting a few. Though the point is, that people are being harsh on 10 because he devolved into exhibiting some or the more negative emotions and expressionism, where as 11 was a class when he started and a class act when he left under circumstances that seemingly 10 would have reacted much more poorly under. 11 feels like a genuinely uplifting, warm, and caring person, 10 dealt with more tragedy over a shorter time frame, but there's a lot of evidence to suggest that 11 is just more level headed and above himself to begin with.
I think it's pretty clear that 10 raged on account of his growing ego and sense of self importance. They even take a dig at it in the Christmas special when referencing the self regeneration of 10. He wasn't so far gone that he wasn't still going to do the right thing, but as we'd seen in Water of Mars, he was starting to get there.
For the Doctor they're "rebounds", sure. But the characters themselves aren't very similar nor is the way they each played out.
And Clara really doesn't have a "crush" on the Doctor, it's really much more paternal affection. The writers just clouded things up in earlier episodes by portraying her as a flirt but there was never any real substance to that, IMO.
I think it works in some ways because the Ponds will just keep tagging along with the Doctor forever until they either can't or won't. So having them live to death offscreen works by both giving them a happy ending (of sorts) while still permanently separating them from the Doctor.
But mechanically, I think the Surprise Weeping Angel could've been foreshadowed a little better for a more satisfying conclusion.
obin_gam
Member
She literally says she fancies him, in the Xmas special.
Harlock
Member
I am fine with all the recent regenerations. And Tennant shirtless was better than Smith shirtless. We are looking forward to Capaldi shirtless now.
About the quality of the stories, I wonder if 3/4 of people complaining now can stand and watch one entire arc of classic Doctor Who. I like the old ones, but I dont think that most peoples would like.
About the quality of the stories, I wonder if 3/4 of people complaining now can stand and watch one entire arc of classic Doctor Who. I like the old ones, but I dont think that most peoples would like.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
After rewatching all the regeneration scenes, I must say I'm not a fan of Capaldi's "Kidneys!" line. That's like the fifth times we've basically had that same joke (9 on his ears in "Rose", 10 on his teeth, 11 on several body parts, Hurt on 9's ears in the 50th). "I don't like the colours" is also kinda reminiscent of "You're redecorated? I don't like it." The rest of his lines were fine though.
Jest Chillin
Member
I took it the same way. It came across as another reference to running being a major thing the Doctor does.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
They're really going to have to come up with some amazing bullshit to make it seem as if the Doctor is even in the slightest bit of peril now. I mean, he's back to his 'first' regeneration, right? Not that has been a big part of the show and we all knew they were going to just handwave away the regeneration limit, but now he's literally in no danger for like, 13 lives.
Not really, if he gets killed during regeneration he's dead for good.
obin_gam
Member
Have you really felt peril for him anyway? He's the hero of a 50 year old family adventure show. He's not gonna die. Ever.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Eight died.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Nah, but it's part of losing yourself in the show, I suppose. Like I said, we all knew it, but now the characters will too.
I'm not making much sense...lol
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
He can still die before regeneration though, but I get what you're saying.
obin_gam
Member
Which "Turn Left" nicely demonstrated.
But also, I thought it was helpful for "The End of Time" to establish that the Doctor doesn't really want to regenerate if he can help it. So even if he could survive that way as a last resort, it's not like having a bunch of extra lives in Super Mario.
He got killed in the crash. The sisters brought him back to life.
Jest Chillin
Member
Well technically the characters knew it before as well. His companions know he can regenerate and of the New Who companions, none knew about the limit until 11 explained it to Clara. Now maybe Clara may take it a bit more lightly but like others have said, he can still be outright killed if he doesn't have time to Regenerate or if he's killed during it.
Moffats bigest flaw, imho, in all his run was that he was aiming for the Doctor to seem like he is in peril. That is not what Doctor Who is, for me anyway.
When I listen to the Eight Doctor Adventures audiobooks, there are places on the verge of destruction, rotten to the core. Then, the Doctor comes in, reveals the problem or deals with it to the best of his abilities. The drama is that he sometimes loses. Sometimes, there are no saving planets.
This is true to the Doctor Who TV show as well, to a certain extent. You cant save everything and everyone. The Doctor can always save himself, as seen in Pompeii, or even in Waters of Mars, but when a tragedy is about to occur: that is the real drama. The world is the main character, not the Doctor. The setting, the place where the stuff happens is the center of the drama, not the Doctor. Some more examples of this: Impossible Planet/Satan Pit (literally a drama unfolding). Midnight. Mr and Ms. Smith. Vampires of Venice. Blink (partially, though). Gridlock. Beast Below. Rose. Eleventh Hour (partially).
I hope Doctor Who takes this as its new direction. Time to turn the show once again into a drama, a thrill worth watching without having to endanger the Doctor first.
APZonerunner
Member
Like I said previously, the point isn't "did people turn out OK" - they all do - but more the effect it has on him. Like with 11, Amy & Rory live on to their 80s/90s, but he's still obviously hugely gutted and upset. The same is true of 10, but it just happens over and over again, and on top of that happens in a really short period of time. Not just the main six companions, but even the potentials he meets - Astrid, Joan, Jenny, The Master, even River - every single one blows up in his face to a degree that just hasn't happened to any Doctor before or since.
This compounds with the fact that he's the most emotionally intense Doctor - likely caused by 9's relationship with Rose - and it's a recipe for disaster. It's not that Martha turned out ok, or Rose got her Doctor, or that Joan remarried, or that Donna gets her millions - it's that after everything he's left with nothing, again. And being left with nothing is an echo of the war that he can't live with, so it drives him off the rails. It'd do that to anyone.
Script:
Think the implication here is he simply doesn't know. He flat out says "if I'm killed before regeneration, I'm dead," and THEN goes on to talk about regeneration, saying before "Even then." He doesn't know. This is pretty clearly telegaphed later in lines in part two, as well. When he flies in that ship, he thinks he's going to death, not regeneration. He is shocked when he's alive at the end of it all. When Rassilon snarls at him "You'll die with me, Doctor," and he says "I know," accepting it, he doesn't think it's regeneration coming, because obviously Rassilon's aim isn't to make him regenerate, it's to kill.
I'm also going to go ahead and question if 11 handled his traumas that more eloquently than 10 on a base level. If we look past the regeneration - which like I say is a different circumstance for a different Doctor - and instead look to simply, say, losing 'their' companion, one goes and sulks for a couple of decades and takes on a scrooge persona, while one is depressed but does keep travelling. They ultimately compound for the 10th Doctor and make him implode, though.
9's different because the character has a death wish and a martyr complex all series. He wants to sacrifice himself because it's what he thinks he deserves, and that's why he does what he does at the end. That and love for Rose. There's plenty of examples of the 10th Doctor doing the same things you just linked as 11 (a bizarre one comes to mind, offering himself up to the Daleks to stop them killing the people in New York, but there's plenty more) - that's a key trait of the character. Some more than others. But in the end, what happens to him and the way he goes is a great personal tragedy for him, and that's what makes him how he is in those final moments. He's emotionally charged to begin with, tragedy after tragedy makes him even sensitive and drives him over the edge (and this is visible as early as The Runaway Bride, underlined in Turn Left) and then four/five years simply wasn't enough for him. And who would it be?
This is my biggest problem as well, but ultimately this, and the whole "Doctor Who" arc, is what Matt's era has ultimately been about. It is what it is now. I always think the program should not be ABOUT the Doctor as much. I mean, when the show began, Ian was really conceived as the lead, and to be honest, regardless of whoever's name was first on the credits, Rose was the star of that show in 2005, and it would've have worked without Billie. Chris leaving was a blow, but I honestly believe had the roles been reversed and it'd been a new companion for Series 2 the series might've died. Billie carried that show. I'd like the Doctor to be less central to everything under Capaldi, certainly, and perhaps with him being an old series fan he himself will influence that now.
I think a lot of the last few years have been down to ego, in a sense, anyway. Like, Moffat wanted to be the one to fix the regeneration thing and I'm guessing he has no idea if Capaldi will outlast him, so he's jumped a few hoops to make sure he was the one to do it. He has wanted to leave his mark by making revelatory things about the character (marriage to River, etc) because he's a fan, and he wants to make sure he's remembered, I think. RTD probably would've done the same but didn't have to, because in bringing it back the man has secured his place as Who royalty alongside Lambert and the like.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I do agree that with the new Doctor this is their chance to back away a bit from the Doctor as Jesus thing. Just a bit. I really, really don't know how I feel about him as an old man, especially with a companion that sorta had the hots for him. Their dynamic is going to have to change.
Basically, I think I'm missing Smith more than I thought I would, even if it really was time for him to move on.
Basically, I think I'm missing Smith more than I thought I would, even if it really was time for him to move on.
Smith's Doctor was an old man in a young man's body. Like, everything he did, the way he spoke, walked, dressed, indicated it.
He played that duality amazing well. Certainly the best out of nuWho.
Jest Chillin
Member
You call it Moffat's flaw but I think it was a natural direction to go. I mean how often are the Universes baddies going to continue to try to destroy and/or conquer and just hope The Doctor doesn't show up? Eventually the idea would move to trying to kill The Doctor.
I mean how many times has The Doctor thwarted the plans of his enemies? Eventually one has to wonder why those enemies aren't going after him directly since he appears to be the one entity that's in their way.
That's kind of why I like the idea of Captain Jack's Torchwood and even the Paternoster Gang (though I'd like to see them actually traveling the Universe rather than just hanging in Victorian Era London). They're movements inspired by The Doctor's efforts and can each serve to do what The Doctor does, albeit in smaller doses. They serve as alternative threats to the Universes villains and should take some pressure of The Doctor as the Universes only savior. It's taking the idea behind the Doctor Lite episodes and expanding upon it.
Jest Chillin
Member
We'd lose Gwen and I'd miss her character. Also, Paternoster Gang seems squarely aimed at the younger crowd and Captain Jack is definitely not. lol
Rodney McKay
Member
Weren't they trapped in a prison hotel, doomed to repeat the same day over and over and over again as Angels fed off of their timey wimey energy (or whatever the reason for that place was)? Sure it's nice that they got to be together for that time, but it was still a life prison sentence for both of them.
I honestly though that was one of the most horrific companion exits next to Donna having the best parts of her life wiped from her mind.
That was before the paradox that killed the Angels and only left the one that sent them back in time for good. Based on Amy's letter to the Doctor, they lived a normal life a bit like some of the victims of the Angels in Blink.
Yeah, I find these two annoying.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
The prison hotel was destroyed as said above.
Also watch this epilogue to The Angels Take Manhattan / The Power of Three if you haven't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWU6XL9xI4k
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Don't worry. All the New Who companions end up living happily ever after.
Rose got her own Doctor to play Doctor with.
Amy and Rory grew old together in the early 20th century supposedly with their daughter River.
Donna.. uh.. well she lives fine as long as she never sees him again. A happy blissful unaware life with her mother and father.
Martha... er.. uh she went home depressed that he never loved her or something and I guess is living out the rest of her life with her parents who said "I told you so".
They only kill off temporary companions these days. Well, not all of them.
That thief chick he met on the bus I believe escaped or something.
Though, all the temporary companions they met in the '80s hotel didn't do so well sadly.
But Craig is fine! He and his wife and their child Stormageddon are getting along just fine.
But Madame de Pompadour.. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry... well, she did live out some of her life before she died of tuberculosis. But that's hardly the Doctor's fault.
Rose got her own Doctor to play Doctor with.
Amy and Rory grew old together in the early 20th century supposedly with their daughter River.
Donna.. uh.. well she lives fine as long as she never sees him again. A happy blissful unaware life with her mother and father.
Martha... er.. uh she went home depressed that he never loved her or something and I guess is living out the rest of her life with her parents who said "I told you so".
They only kill off temporary companions these days. Well, not all of them.
That thief chick he met on the bus I believe escaped or something.
Though, all the temporary companions they met in the '80s hotel didn't do so well sadly.
But Craig is fine! He and his wife and their child Stormageddon are getting along just fine.
But Madame de Pompadour.. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry... well, she did live out some of her life before she died of tuberculosis. But that's hardly the Doctor's fault.
Rodney McKay
Member
Oh, well that's not bad at all.
Some of these Doctor Who episodes can get a little too convoluted for their own good (especially with paradoxes), but then again I haven't seen that episode since it aired so maybe it's more clear than I remember.
Wasn't the last scene we see with Martha when David Tennant is going around visiting the companions one last time and Martha seems to have hooked up with Mikey?
Pre-edit beaten below, haha.
Martha and Micky get married.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
And what a great moment that was. Why do you think those two were paired together? Eh? Pretty fucking obvious and pretty damn insensitive.
Which one - The Snowmen, or the Time of the Doctor?
Insensitive? Do you mean you think it was some kind of racism? More like they were both rejected by the ones they love, and realized the likeness in each other?
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Wow. How did I miss that? lol. I guess she's happy now then. And he's probably happy too now that he doesn't have a girlfriend obsessed with someone else.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Racism? Heavens no. Why would you think that? Some of the Doctor's best friends are Sontarians.
No, I was referring to the fact that both Martha and Ricky are goddamn useless, so together they may have made a partially interesting human being,
Racism. Pish and posh.
She says she fancies him in Tim of the Doctor. It's when they find out about the truth field in the town.
paradox121
Member
Hmmm, just looked at a transcript and it looks like she get's cut off in the middle of saying she fancies something, but not necessarily him.
CLARA: I'm an English teacher from planet Earth, and I've run off with a man from space because I really fancy
MARTA: I think, perhaps, you should stop talking till you get used to it.
In any case, even if she is referring to him, I think this is a basic truth that can be applied to all of the primary companions in some fashion. Even Donna. They obviously each have their own way of expressing that.
Wasn't he sent back to around the time the Paternoster gang existed?
Ein Bear
Member
The dumbest part about this was that Martha was already engaged to someone else. She goes off to marry a doctor, then next time you see her she's with Micky.
JonathanEx
Member
For further reference on this, see the He Said/She Said prequel. I think she talks about it in there.
I've sort of thought that was the case for a while anyway. Fancies him a bit but not in love with him.
One more view on RTD vs Moffat, from a much more recently converted fan.
Here's initial experience watching the show: knowing absolutely nothing of the writers or details, I tried to muddle through the first season of the revival for my fiancee (she's a huge fan) and had a very hard time appreciating much of anything, until I watched The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances. That was her favorite episode of the first series as well, and it fully sold me on the potential of the entire franchise. Without it, I would have given up and not made it to the second series.
I kept watching and didn't care much for most of the intervening episodes. While I liked Tenant, his reveal episode was so horribly handled (terribly corny swordfight that doesn't fit with the show or Doctor's strengths at all) that it took me a while to warm up to him. The next episode that convinced me to keep going was The Girl in the Fireplace, which is still one of my favorites.
I had no idea that these favorite were Moffat-penned, but the trend continued, with Blink showing me a mature, exceptionally well written show that I knew I'd have to keep watching for similar gems. Outside of these and others, the show was frequently unwatchable for me in the RTD era. To date, I haven't completed a good 25% of those episodes, because the acting and writing often isn't worth pushing through for an entire hour. There are certainly some standout exceptions penned by RTD -- Waters of Mars, amongst others -- but overall I couldn't be happier with the change the show underwent starting with Matt Smith.
When asked by friends, where should I begin with Doctor Who?, I always reply: Series 5, the introduction of Matt Smith as the raggedy doctor. It's the strongest premiere, the most endearing Doctor incarnation to date, and you'll have far fewer bad episodes from that point forward, with some exceptional high points along the way that make for excellent science fiction.
Here's initial experience watching the show: knowing absolutely nothing of the writers or details, I tried to muddle through the first season of the revival for my fiancee (she's a huge fan) and had a very hard time appreciating much of anything, until I watched The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances. That was her favorite episode of the first series as well, and it fully sold me on the potential of the entire franchise. Without it, I would have given up and not made it to the second series.
I kept watching and didn't care much for most of the intervening episodes. While I liked Tenant, his reveal episode was so horribly handled (terribly corny swordfight that doesn't fit with the show or Doctor's strengths at all) that it took me a while to warm up to him. The next episode that convinced me to keep going was The Girl in the Fireplace, which is still one of my favorites.
I had no idea that these favorite were Moffat-penned, but the trend continued, with Blink showing me a mature, exceptionally well written show that I knew I'd have to keep watching for similar gems. Outside of these and others, the show was frequently unwatchable for me in the RTD era. To date, I haven't completed a good 25% of those episodes, because the acting and writing often isn't worth pushing through for an entire hour. There are certainly some standout exceptions penned by RTD -- Waters of Mars, amongst others -- but overall I couldn't be happier with the change the show underwent starting with Matt Smith.
When asked by friends, where should I begin with Doctor Who?, I always reply: Series 5, the introduction of Matt Smith as the raggedy doctor. It's the strongest premiere, the most endearing Doctor incarnation to date, and you'll have far fewer bad episodes from that point forward, with some exceptional high points along the way that make for excellent science fiction.
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