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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
BluePigGanon
Member
Yes. Is that so amazing?
Artists should make art the way they want to make it, either to satisfy their own ambition for it, to appeal to a certain audience, or ideally both; people should react to it however they want. Since you're interested in extreme examples: if someone wants to add a character to a videogame who comes off as a racist caricature, that is that artist's right. If people find it offensive, that is their right. If people decide not to buy the game, that's their right too.
What troubles me is someone at the bully pulpit attempting to shame an artist into reworking a work into something more palatable for them - that's like me making something spicy, and you saying you don't like hot food: it doesn't really matter what you want unless I was making it for you. I feel that way about paintings, movies, games, music, you name it. And I also don't go for people deciding they can speak for enormous, varied, and complex (and maybe even arbitrary or manufactured) categories of people. People have been saying a guy can't take it upon himself to express outrage or offense on the part of women; in truth even a woman can't claim that right.
Damn this is a big thread for a trailer!
Game looks okay. I'm a bit disappointed with the weird proportions they went with on the player characters. In Odin Sphere they were all a little more down to earth (enemies on the other hand...) I'm on the fence about it though because as much as I loved Odin Sphere I found myself getting burned out on it easily.
Knight reminds me of a Space Marine too, those shoulders yo.
Game looks okay. I'm a bit disappointed with the weird proportions they went with on the player characters. In Odin Sphere they were all a little more down to earth (enemies on the other hand...) I'm on the fence about it though because as much as I loved Odin Sphere I found myself getting burned out on it easily.
Knight reminds me of a Space Marine too, those shoulders yo.
Karsticles
Member
I am going to borrow the phrase "virtual eugenics".This is awesome
It's just an indie dev but I liked her opinion on the subject:
Not until we get to see Schreier's inbox full of women (who are offended by Sorceress).
Devolution
Member
Nah we'll be frozen out of the conversation as usual.
Ragingnight
Member
but if I stop now how will I get my very own princess peach?
As the opponents of the sorceress claim, these images in media are what hurt your self esteem, not their disregard for your actual opinions and sensibilities.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
it's free publicity, this game is going to sell A LOT if we keep talking about it
This is awesome
It's just an indie dev but I liked her opinion on the subject:
heh, well said.
Devolution
Member
Yeah that's what makes the people offended by this game on my shit list. Our opinions only matter when they're in line with whatever agenda they set. Actually ask us what the issues are or what makes us feel alienated? Pshaw, what do I take them for, journalists?
encephalon
Member
I'm reminded of Silent Hill and Kindergarten Cop. It turns out, the school in Silent Hill is clearly based off of the one in Kindergarten Cop. Wow! What does this mean!?
Thank you, Tony. I'm sure the creators of Silent Hill had human sexuality in mind when they used a movie reference to find out what an American school looked like.
Are Dragon's Crown. etc full of intentional references to specific works of art? Or are they used as references to capture the feel of medieval fantasy? These are such superficial connections, I think it's hard to make the argument that these are somehow meaningful allusions.
Tony Ponce @ Destructoid said:
Thank you, Tony. I'm sure the creators of Silent Hill had human sexuality in mind when they used a movie reference to find out what an American school looked like.
Are Dragon's Crown. etc full of intentional references to specific works of art? Or are they used as references to capture the feel of medieval fantasy? These are such superficial connections, I think it's hard to make the argument that these are somehow meaningful allusions.
partyphone
Banned
It's not well said it's a strawman.
Velcro Fly
Member
I want the game but not because of how the sorceress looks. I can be repulsed by how she looks and the demographic it caters to and still not really think it is sexist. I still want to buy the game and would even try the sorceress out but would probably not play it outside my house. I respect the creative freedom of artists but that doesn't mean it doesn't make me feel creepy for supporting it.
Pimpbaa
Member
I sure as hell would rather hear your opinion over some people in this thread.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
How is it a strawman when I've seen people saying exactly what she's saying on these very forums?
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Lol, damn.
Devolution
Member
partyphone
Banned
Link to that. Link to someone saying "large breasts automatically objectifying women". The argument has a lot more nuance than that.
Devolution
Member
This isn't the game to be targeting when it comes to that problem.
Cool, outright dismissal of the people who are most affected by this so-called "objectification".
Any other female gamers you'd like to marginalize while you're at it?
partyphone
Banned
Every game that does this is a target.
partyphone
Banned
Outright dismissal because she is being disingenuous and not engaging the actual argument. You're only excited because a woman is agreeing with you.
Devolution
Member
No.
Frankly fucking no.
This is the problem.
You contextualize every big tittied character as sexual objectification not caring about the context or her depth.
This is just as sexist as the people you purport to criticize for the creation of said character.
partyphone
Banned
The size of her tits isn't the issue. She is very clearly being sexually objectified.
I feel like we're going in circles.
"I guess in a roundabout way you could say sexually objectifying a woman by attacking some part of her body, simplifying her character to how X part is disproportionate, shameful, embarrassing or disgusting is a better example of misogyny. Swap Sorceress for a real human being and this is a 'slut shaming' (ie: bad term for misogyny) thread. "
"I guess in a roundabout way you could say sexually objectifying a woman by attacking some part of her body, simplifying her character to how X part is disproportionate, shameful, embarrassing or disgusting is a better example of misogyny. Swap Sorceress for a real human being and this is a 'slut shaming' (ie: bad term for misogyny) thread. "
Why would that trouble you? If you have no problem with someone using their bully pulpit to, for example, distribute racist propaganda, why do you suddenly have a problem with someone using their own free speech to express any opinion whatsoever countering it? Being an "artist" neither makes free speech your unique privilege, nor immunize you from others' free speech.
Gokurakumaru (below): so you can't.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
"Sexualization in and of itself is not the problem, the problem is the objectification that it causes."
"Fans should encourage developers to think harder on how they treat women"
"these designs are problematic"
From this post
I haven't read this entire thread, but the accusations I've seen - that I'm only doing this for pageviews; that I don't actually care about the things I'm saying; that my criticism is contributing to the mistreatment of women - are inappropriate, out of line, and rather disgusting. I won't address those.
I will, however, elaborate on my points, since it doesn't seem like I've been clear enough.
For reference, let's look at this picture of the sorceress. Other than her proportions, there are a couple of details worth noting. One is that her shirt is trying to escape from her chest. She also has a very childish face that resembles lolicon imagery. I don't think either of those features is beautiful or worth lauding in any way.
Now let's look at the gif that was posted earlier in this thread. Maybe you think it's reasonable, or beautiful, or aesthetically pleasing when a female character's breasts move like that during combat. I don't. I think it's demeaning and embarrassing.
See, I don't think the sorceress's design is problematic because of her large breasts. What's problematic is that the character is explicitly designed to draw our eyes to her large breasts. They're exposed; they're jiggling; they're disproportionate. They're immediately striking. They're part of a lolicon fantasy, drawn to appeal to people who are interested in lolicon fantasies (and people who are interested in large breasts).
So yes, maybe her design has something to do with fertility, or necromancy. Maybe she's a strong, multifaceted character with interesting thoughts and ambitions. None of that really matters, because her body is presented as a jiggling sexual object for people to leer at.
(To those of you who are ready to argue that the men in Dragon's Crown are sexually objectified as well, please google "adolescent male power fantasy" and read explanations from people more qualified than I.)
Go ahead and look at that gif again. I hope you can see how that might make people feel uncomfortable.
You could say that, examined in a vacuum, this is just a silly cartoon. But viewed as part of the video game industry - and it is, despite its niche, part of the video game industry - this is just another example of an exclusionary chunk of gaming culture. On Twitter yesterday, one person said to me, "I like how you complain about some games being 'made for men and only men' as if that's a bad thing." Are you kidding me? I sure hope I don't need to explain why that's not okay.
Some have accused me of singling out Dragon's Crown because Japanese niche games are easy targets for a westerner. That's just not true. I write a column every week about JRPGs. I'm criticizing this one because I don't want to see the genre headed in this direction. I want JRPGs with great female characters. Strong, complicated female characters who aren't defined by their sexuality, like Estelle in Trails in the Sky or Nanami in Suikoden II. Female characters who don't come across as aesthetic objects.
One more thing: I'm probably the only person here who has actually played Dragon's Crown, and I have no interest in seeing it burn. It's a fun, interesting game that I hope to buy and play and write about. Otherwise I wouldn't care this much.
I will, however, elaborate on my points, since it doesn't seem like I've been clear enough.
For reference, let's look at this picture of the sorceress. Other than her proportions, there are a couple of details worth noting. One is that her shirt is trying to escape from her chest. She also has a very childish face that resembles lolicon imagery. I don't think either of those features is beautiful or worth lauding in any way.
Now let's look at the gif that was posted earlier in this thread. Maybe you think it's reasonable, or beautiful, or aesthetically pleasing when a female character's breasts move like that during combat. I don't. I think it's demeaning and embarrassing.
See, I don't think the sorceress's design is problematic because of her large breasts. What's problematic is that the character is explicitly designed to draw our eyes to her large breasts. They're exposed; they're jiggling; they're disproportionate. They're immediately striking. They're part of a lolicon fantasy, drawn to appeal to people who are interested in lolicon fantasies (and people who are interested in large breasts).
So yes, maybe her design has something to do with fertility, or necromancy. Maybe she's a strong, multifaceted character with interesting thoughts and ambitions. None of that really matters, because her body is presented as a jiggling sexual object for people to leer at.
(To those of you who are ready to argue that the men in Dragon's Crown are sexually objectified as well, please google "adolescent male power fantasy" and read explanations from people more qualified than I.)
Go ahead and look at that gif again. I hope you can see how that might make people feel uncomfortable.
You could say that, examined in a vacuum, this is just a silly cartoon. But viewed as part of the video game industry - and it is, despite its niche, part of the video game industry - this is just another example of an exclusionary chunk of gaming culture. On Twitter yesterday, one person said to me, "I like how you complain about some games being 'made for men and only men' as if that's a bad thing." Are you kidding me? I sure hope I don't need to explain why that's not okay.
Some have accused me of singling out Dragon's Crown because Japanese niche games are easy targets for a westerner. That's just not true. I write a column every week about JRPGs. I'm criticizing this one because I don't want to see the genre headed in this direction. I want JRPGs with great female characters. Strong, complicated female characters who aren't defined by their sexuality, like Estelle in Trails in the Sky or Nanami in Suikoden II. Female characters who don't come across as aesthetic objects.
One more thing: I'm probably the only person here who has actually played Dragon's Crown, and I have no interest in seeing it burn. It's a fun, interesting game that I hope to buy and play and write about. Otherwise I wouldn't care this much.
Oh, this is a new one. I don't think I've ever heard the "white knight" argument levied against people arguing against "white knights".
The implication here is that Kamitani and Vanillaware are some sort of holy standard all other JRPGs devs hold themselves to. There's a reason Vanillaware is extremely niche: it's because they represent a dying philosophy within the gaming industry.
I don't even know how you can make this statement with a straight face.
Devolution
Member
The size of her tits isn't the issue. She is very clearly being sexually objectified.
So was Bayo. Is that automatically bad? We cannot have these representations because of the pervasive nature of sexualization within the industry? You'd censor everything, all art because you have a problem with the idea? This is where I break from the white knight crap that seems to pervade and invade the conversations at hand. I have no issue with sexualization of a character in a game especially if she has an anti-thesis in said game or the entire game is a milieu of exaggeration. What alienates me is this assumption on my behalf of what does alienate me. She doesn't. Other women in this thread have said as much and yet the argument continues. Please keep drowning out my voice and wonder why I don't care much to opine on this shit or feel isolated in the community.
partyphone
Banned
Swing and a miss.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
Yeah, no. See? I can be dismissive without actually making an argument too.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
Let's not get too excited, alrighty?
partyphone
Banned
No. No. No.
I would not censor anything. This has nothing to do with censoring.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CENSORING.
Stop bring that up. It is beyond ridiculous.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
ummm no
Devolution
Member
Fine you wouldn't censor it but you'd label all of it as just as problematic as the next thing. It's bullshit.
partyphone
Banned
But you can link to something that has nothing to do with what I said.
Isn't lolicon "lolita?" That seems like a totally inapt characterization.
How cool are you with racist games? Very? Would a racist game be "problematic?"
How cool are you with racist games? Very? Would a racist game be "problematic?"
The size of her tits isn't the issue. She is very clearly being sexually objectified.
the camera caught her mid-turn. the next photo looks more natural.
Riposte
Member
He knows his anime, shut up!
partyphone
Banned
What does that even mean?
"as problematic as the next thing"?
In this very specific instance I label it as sexually objectifying. Is that the end of the world? No. Is that the worst thing to ever happen to a woman? No. Do I think everyone who enjoys this game is a terrible person? No. Is it an annoying part of our culture because there is just so much of it all of the time? Yes.
Devolution
Member
Pimpbaa
Member
Lolicon (ロリコン?), also romanised as lolikon or rorikon,[1] is a Japanese portmanteau of the phrase "Lolita complex". In Japan, the term describes an attraction to underage girls (whether prepubescent, pubescent, or post-pubescent)[2][3] or an individual with such an attraction.