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American Football 101 |OT| - Schemes, breakdown and professorial talk

eznark

Banned
Who are the Bills draft guys? I know one fellow from buffalobillsdraft.com and I don't see eye to eye with him most of the time. Lot of back and forth between the two of us on the Bills board he frequents. Good dude, he's liked Smith since last season, liked Lemonier a ton and he's getting buzz now, agree with him too. We both agreed on R.Wilson, discussion was basically how soon is too soon. Not going to pretend like I was dead set on him when the pick came up in the third but he was on my mind, I knew these pussies wouldn't have the balls to take him anyway.

Other than that guy I can't say I give a shit what others in the Bills community think. Maybe I'm forgetting someone, drop some names.

I think this franchise is dog shit and has no fucking talent. They've failed in every round the last three years after their first selection, with the exception of Glenn they're all busts. You can't build a team when you're missing one the second and third days as badly as they are. They have one guard and he's a big mauler that can't move in space, RT is fucking dog shit, Glenn's a player, Center is good but always hurt. No Linebackers, one cornerback, a couple of good DTs but no depth behind them, one DE who is a ghost most of the time without depth behind him, no QB, no WR outside of Steve, and a Safety that's counting down his days until he's set free. They do have a couple of backs but that's where it ends.

So basically, it doesn't matter who they draft, they're going to fail/underperform/leave. That's how it is, that's how it will be for the foreseeable future.

Won't take a guard top ten, they're morons and believe in this value shit but they never do anything about it. They'll grade a guard top 10, but they won't draft him because the "value" isn't there, whatever the fuck that means. So trade down and get more picks...nope we don't know if our guy will be there so we're better off staying put and taking a player we don't grade as high because his position holds value, again, whatever the fuck that means. Pretty sure they'd take a tackle however, and then kick Glenn inside or to the right side, tackles have value, lol. Probably wont happen though.

They need a rush LB for Pettine, Dion Jordan should be the guy, he should not get past them if you ask me but he may not be there. He can cover, I'm more concerned about his pass rush ability than his coverage skills so to me that's a plus because normally it's the opposite. I've seen him rush the QB but he needs to add to his repertoire.

Going into this year I thought T.Wilson was the best QB prospect, ahead of Barkley but felt Bray had a shot because he's got the tools and receivers, but he sucked ass. Geno was on the radar too but that system can help a QB big time.

I'm pretty comfortable in saying that Tyler Wilson is the best QB in this draft, he scares me the least and I think he can be a good one. Not sure he's elite, or that you can solely rely on him to take over, but I've watched him for three years, over a dozen games, and I like him a lot. Guy played behind one of the worst OLs on the planet, took a pounding, yet maintained poise in the pocket, eyes downfield all game long. Moves well inside the pocket, steps up/climbs. Plenty of arm too. Does a great job working the middle of the field, throws through tight windows, understands how routes combos affect coverage. Tannehill did a bad job throwing between the hashes but I thought he did a great job outside. It's the opposite with Wilson, not that he's poor outside, just didn't do it enough in the Ark scheme.

My main concerns is the amount of hits, the amount of hits he'll continue to take because he just hangs in there, and the absolutely terrible decisions he makes at times. Seems like he just doesn't give a fuck and forces it or just makes a terrible read.

You asked me about Geno, but I didn't talk about Smith at all. I think he's not a good runner, doesn't look to run which is actually a negative. Good pocket presence at times, a statue at other times. His problem, besides just standing in one spot and not moving his feet, is locking on to receivers. Another QB that keeps his eyes downfield and doesn't give a fuck, will step up too, but he scans the field so slowly. Locks on way too much and you saw it affect his play, defenses would just key in and take away his first or second read. Plenty of times where he just threw it up even though his guy was never open, just threw it out of frustration. That's my beef with Smith, will this dude ever scan the field properly? Reminds me of Trent Edwards, eyes downfield but on one or two receivers tops.

Smith does anticipate throwing windows pretty well over the middle, but his ball placement isn't the greatest. Remember a couple of times where he threw too low on a drive concepts and his WR couldn't run after catch. But then he'll make a good deep throw and you forget about it, still though he doesn't lead guys the right way sometimes.

Back to the Bills, and I said this three years ago, still believe it, they shouldn't take a guy with the squad they have right now. Build the team and then go out and grab one, don't force it because he's going to have to carry the load with the pile of shit they have on the roster and I don't think a guy like that exists in this draft, not an obvious anyway. They failed miserably in the last three drafts and have to start from scratch with only 6 picks via the draft and next to no additions via free agency. Why reach and take a guy who's going to take a pounding the next two years?

That said, they'll take one early because they don't have the slightest fucking idea.


This is fucking tragic. Reminds me that big Royals blogger who quit last year.

Stick with it LJ! At least you aren't a Pittsburgh Pirates fan.
 
I did too haha. Guy's name is Matthew Elder. Runs (or I at least thought he ran) buffalobillsdraft. You linked a few articles awhile back and I thought they were pretty interesting from him. I think it was his stat based prediction thing

edit: On the guard thing, I'm, sort of confused about the whole positional value thing as well. You see guards making good money in FA, and I can tell you that nothing shuts down an offense like guards not letting the QB step up in the pocket. But then conventional wisdom is don't take them early

Latest footballguys podcast with LZ and Williamson talks about this a bit. Really long show but lots of good FA talk. Lance just really believes that it's not worth taking a guard early b/c they don't impact the game.

Ray Didinger yesterday was saying that Warmack would be the best player in this draft and that the Eagles should take him at 4. It is also weird to me that teams just randomly decided that certain positions are not worthy of drafting high. I am pretty sure Reid never took a safety in the first round.
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
Stick with it LJ! At least you aren't a Pittsburgh Pirates fan.
Lloyd-Christmas-Happy-to-Sad.gif
 

LJ11

Member
I did too haha. Guy's name is Matthew Elder. Runs (or I at least thought he ran) buffalobillsdraft. You linked a few articles awhile back and I thought they were pretty interesting from him. I think it was his stat based prediction thing

edit: On the guard thing, I'm, sort of confused about the whole positional value thing as well. You see guards making good money in FA, and I can tell you that nothing shuts down an offense like guards not letting the QB step up in the pocket. But then conventional wisdom is don't take them early

Latest footballguys podcast with LZ and Williamson talks about this a bit. Really long show but lots of good FA talk. Lance just really believes that it's not worth taking a guard early b/c they don't impact the game.

Yeah, Matthew's the guy, but he doesn't write the majority of the stuff on the site, he does scouting. Refused to buy into Stat based analysis believe it or not and I would make fun of him about it, guess he finally saw the light. I'm a complete cunt on that Bills board though, but I'm fed up with the apologists, and they also behave like cunts.

Yeah, the "value" shit drives me nuts, it's a nebulous term. Problem with grabbing a guard early is that if he turns out elite, he's going to make 11-12m 5 years from now and will probably walk. If he's not elite you wasted a top ten selection on a good or slightly above average G. Catch 22.

Some of this shit is just old guard vs new, still "valuing" T more than G even though you see scrubs manning LT on SB teams. Elite Guards on those SB teams though...
 

squicken

Member
Yeah, Matthew's the guy, but he doesn't write the majority of the stuff on the site, he does scouting. Refused to buy into Stat based analysis believe it or not and I would make fun of him about it, guess he finally saw the light. I'm a complete cunt on that Bills board though, but I'm fed up with the apologists, and they also behave like cunts.

Yeah, the "value" shit drives me nuts, it's a nebulous term. Problem with grabbing a guard early is that if he turns out elite, he's going to make 11-12m 5 years from now and will probably walk. If he's not elite you wasted a top ten selection on a good or slightly above average G. Catch 22.

Some of this shit is just old guard vs new, still "valuing" T more than G even though you see scrubs manning LT on SB teams. Elite Guards on those SB teams though...

I've discussed this in the main thread, but I do partly like Fluker more than Warmack b/c I think he will be a solid guard at least, but maybe has the upside to be a decent RT. Having positional versatility is so important on the OL imo. Same with Cooper and his ability to play center

I also don't follow the stat based scouting stuff, but I thought it was something to at least keep an eye on b/c h has all the times/measurables there. Really, the whole draftnik thing is just for fun. Mayock must have 20 guys with top 10 talent right now. Big debate going whether WR needy teams should take Austin or Patterson amongst the incompetent GM panel of Sundquist and Casserly
 

Talon

Member
Value when it comes to draft talk is so counterfactual. You don't know how a team is stacking its board.

I hate, hate watching the draft because of this horseshit of "he would've been available 5 picks later."
 

squicken

Member
Value when it comes to draft talk is so counterfactual. You don't know how a team is stacking its board.

I hate, hate watching the draft because of this horseshit of "he would've been available 5 picks later."

That is definitely dumb, though some guys go way too early. Teams were interested in Bruce Irvin. He wasn't drafted to high, b/c SEA couldn't have waited or slid back 10 spots. But you have to say that DHB was drafted "too high", right? Even at the time, everyone knew OAK was getting bad value there
 

Draxal

Member
and, I actually liked Tyler Wilson alot in the game he played against Rutgers, and that was the same exact mpression I got out of him. He was just getting pummeled, but kept on making plays and plays all day (alot of busted coverage, but some he def threaded the needle). It's weird that Rutgers has played against Nassib, Smith, Wilson and Bridgewater the last couple of years.

I have a feeling that you would stop being a fan if the Bills drafted Nassib. (He's a good cfb qb ... but he didn't seem special to me).
 

squicken

Member
Kind of a vague question on the way teams use slot WRs. My observation of NE and STL with Welker and Amendola is that the offense was almost always set up to let those guys have a two way go out of the slot. Where the Giants will send Cruz deep in the seam or on a switch quite often.

So was Denver using Stokley like NE was using Welker? Will they have to change their offense around to accommodate him, or use him to the best of his abilities? NE would seem set to just continue on with the same offense, exchanging scrappy white guys who run the same routes

edit: Will add here instead of NFL/NCAA BB thread

http://t.co/uy4ShFgLN3

Listening to Cosell on Shutdown Corner Podcast for WRs and TEs

-Patterson is raw. Will need to go to a good WR coach. Can't expect to stick him out and expect him to produce. will need package of plays initially

-Austin would be wasted as just a slot guy. Needs to be used like in college. Different than Welker b/c of long and short speed

-Keenan Allen better than Hopkins. Smother athlete. Reminds him of Jimmy Smith. Bill Polian thinks Allen is a Reggie Wayne clone. Very technical route runner who should transition quicker

-Hopkins a little stiff. Like a faster Anquan Boldin but hard to know if he can be that tough

-Robert Woods is a smaller, less strong Blackmon. Cosell didn't like Blackmon, thinks Woods like he will struggle vs press b/c of quickness issues
 
Can't believe I wrote all that.

If I was reading the thread and came across a wall of words I would just skip it, no one has time for that shit, lol.
I read it!

...and now I feel awful.
I really don't

Actually, I do but not because I read a rather good post but for Bills fans everywhere.:(

Value when it comes to draft talk is so counterfactual. You don't know how a team is stacking its board.

I hate, hate watching the draft because of this horseshit of "he would've been available 5 picks later."
Yep, it's goofy because analyst put the information out there as though teams are working on a consensus board of something. As of they've all agreed to value each player the exact same way before the draft starts which is, of course ridiculous.
 

LJ11

Member
and, I actually liked Tyler Wilson alot in the game he played against Rutgers, and that was the same exact mpression I got out of him. He was just getting pummeled, but kept on making plays and plays all day (alot of busted coverage, but some he def threaded the needle). It's weird that Rutgers has played against Nassib, Smith, Wilson and Bridgewater the last couple of years.

I have a feeling that you would stop being a fan if the Bills drafted Nassib. (He's a good cfb qb ... but he didn't seem special to me).

I've watched him play once, against USC, and he did some really good things but had his share of problems/bad plays. Haven't seen enough of him, can't make judgement, I think he's the most love/hate guy in the draft for sure. Guys either really like or really don't, personally can't comment and have no intention of watching him, though I did at some point. Couldn't find enough video so I gave up.

If you're a small receiver you're immediately tagged as a slot receiver. Think I said it before but Austin is easily a top 15 talent and probably a top ten. You don't have to be big to beat press, just quick. He can score in a blink of an eye, from anywhere on the field, in a variety of ways. The only time he was a none factor was when Vaccaro put the handcuffs on him, but that says a lot about Vaccaro, locked him up all game long.

Know the Bills are planning to move Steve inside, but who cares, he can play outside too. They used him in the slot a lot late in the year and he gave some teams fits. A guy who understands leverage, and coverage can feast in the slot, it's no longer about your 3rd best receiver. Everyone motions guys around too, a guy like Austin won't suffer, look at DJax. Had issues the last couple of years, but he burst onto the seen big time, Austin is as good in my book and probably better because he can make you miss all game long.

Was watching Austin clips with a coworker, he's a BBall coach, and while I'm watching with him we both pointed out his ankle strength. Neither of us know a thing about this stuff but we both noticed how much pressure he put on his ankle, the lean with all his weight, and yet he never slowed down, built speed. I thought it was pretty incredible myself. Love him as a talent, and I really think he's one of the most talented players I've ever seen, probably extreme but its just how I feel.

Edit: Really don't watch the NFL Network, but Bills fans always listening when it comes to QB talk and the Draft, Cosell was on talking QBs. Nassib is his number 1 guy, read that he said Geno Smith has slow eyes, guess that means he doesn't scan the field/locks on. Really seems to be love hate with Nassib. Seems like a good kid from the interview I watched during the senior bowl., good personality.
 

squicken

Member
I
Edit: Really don't watch the NFL Network, but Bills fans always listening when it comes to QB talk and the Draft, Cosell was on talking QBs. Nassib is his number 1 guy, read that he said Geno Smith has slow eyes, guess that means he doesn't scan the field/locks on. Really seems to be love hate with Nassib. Seems like a good kid from the interview I watched during the senior bowl., good personality.

Watched it today as well. He's also on the Podcast I linked earlier

"slow eyes" comment was that he'll be looking at a guy and sees him breaking open, but still waits until WR is open before throwing it. Lack of anticipation

The comparison they keep making is "are any of these guys better than Tannehill" which to me is absurd. I don't think any are close. I thought Tanne was a top 10 pick last year in a good draft. I don't think any of thesee guys are top 50 picks
 

LJ11

Member
Watched it today as well. He's also on the Podcast I linked earlier

"slow eyes" comment was that he'll be looking at a guy and sees him breaking open, but still waits until WR is open before throwing it. Lack of anticipation

The comparison they keep making is "are any of these guys better than Tannehill" which to me is absurd. I don't think any are close. I thought Tanne was a top 10 pick last year in a good draft. I don't think any of thesee guys are top 50 picks

Classic Trent Edwards, scared to throw into a tight window/coverage.

Yeah, I liked Tannehill a lot last year and didn't understand why some guys were slagging on him. Again, I think T.Wilson is close. Not as big, arm strength not as good, and mobility certainly is not. Wilson had more receiving threats around him. Tannehill's weapons were his OL and RBs.

Tough grade this year, Wilson was pretty bad at times this season, entire team was. I'll try to listen to some of these podcasts, they're pretty long and I only have a 10 minute commute. Whenever I put them on at home I always get distracted by other shit and really don't pay attention.
 

squicken

Member
Classic Trent Edwards, scared to throw into a tight window/coverage.

Yeah, I liked Tannehill a lot last year and didn't understand why some guys were slagging on him. Again, I think T.Wilson is close. Not as big, arm strength not as good, and mobility certainly is not. Wilson had more receiving threats around him. Tannehill's weapons were his OL and RBs.

Tough grade this year, Wilson was pretty bad at times this season, entire team was. I'll try to listen to some of these podcasts, they're pretty long and I only have a 10 minute commute. Whenever I put them on at home I always get distracted by other shit and really don't pay attention.

I need to see more Wilson from 2011. I saw quite of bit of him this past year but Arky was such a disaster. Heard he has all sorts of issues with JLS aside from the bad coaching. But he seems sort of an afterthought as everyone talks about these guys. Here it comes, but maybe a good "value" gamble in the 3rd round?

As far as the podcasts I just listen while working out. Nothing better than listening to Doug Farrar touching himself as he brings up the Seahawks for no reason
 

LJ11

Member
Went on YouTube and watched Nassib. Hard to judge off YouTube videos, hard to get a feel of the game, muddy quality, not my thing I guess but for a quick look why not.

Can see why Draxal wasn't impressed as a Rutgers fan, their OL got beat up. Greene had a game, good job rushing the passer. Love Nassibs release, over the top and quick, remember him standing straight up, even better with the short compact delivery, As good as the upper half is the lower half looks off, doesn't rotate/torque well at times, looks like he's not pushing off his back leg the right way, but maybe I'm wrong, hard to tell.

Does a pretty good job moving around the pocket, but can be erratic. Seems like he can panic a little bit, tries o get rid of it when he has a bit more time. It's as if he buys himself more time by moving around or up in the pocket and then he just wants to get rid of it, playing hot potato.

Makes some really nice throws, some really bad ones especially 20+ yards down the field. Deep ball is shit but he has a live arm, really zips some of those seam throws, good ball placement on most of them. That's another issue, his ball placement is all over the place on throws downfield.

Honestly, lot to like, a lot to scare you away. Reminds me of another QB that came out a couple of years ago, and they're not similar players either, but I felt this way when the comp player was coming out and I guess if I watch Nassib more I may reach a similar conclusion. Erratic, roller coaster ride, but you see really good flashes, you wonder if they can ever refine their skills enough and iron out most of the bad parts, especially deep accuracy.

Wonder what others who watch the vids think. Pretty good get on the second day if you ask me, not sure if he's worth a day one pick because theres a lot of rough edges in his game.
 

Draxal

Member
Went on YouTube and watched Nassib. Hard to judge off YouTube videos, hard to get a feel of the game, muddy quality, not my thing I guess but for a quick look why not.

Can see why Draxal wasn't impressed as a Rutgers fan, their OL got beat up. Greene had a game, good job rushing the passer. Love Nassibs release, over the top and quick, remember him standing straight up, even better with the short compact delivery, As good as the upper half is the lower half looks off, doesn't rotate/torque well at times, looks like he's not pushing off his back leg the right way, but maybe I'm wrong, hard to tell.

Does a pretty good job moving around the pocket, but can be erratic. Seems like he can panic a little bit, tries o get rid of it when he has a bit more time. It's as if he buys himself more time by moving around or up in the pocket and then he just wants to get rid of it, playing hot potato.

Makes some really nice throws, some really bad ones especially 20+ yards down the field. Deep ball is shit but he has a live arm, really zips some of those seam throws, good ball placement on most of them. That's another issue, his ball placement is all over the place on throws downfield.

Honestly, lot to like, a lot to scare you away. Reminds me of another QB that came out a couple of years ago, and they're not similar players either, but I felt this way when the comp player was coming out and I guess if I watch Nassib more I may reach a similar conclusion. Erratic, roller coaster ride, but you see really good flashes, you wonder if they can ever refine their skills enough and iron out most of the bad parts, especially deep accuracy.

Wonder what others who watch the vids think. Pretty good get on the second day if you ask me, not sure if he's worth a day one pick because theres a lot of rough edges in his game.

Well, two things concern me with him. One is your head coach came from Syracuse, and I'm wary of head coach/quarterbacks coming from the same college, It just seems to be a bad thing unless it's say Luck/Harbaugh.

Two, in comparison to say Wilson vs Rutgers, I honestly thougt Arkansas's oline performance was much worse than Cuse's, but Wilson really made alot of plays (and this was after his huge rant about people quitting and how he refused to quit). While, Ville/Rutgers, Ville's offensive lineman destroyed Rutgers defense (injuries killed Rutgers depth situation at that point), so an immobile/hurt Bridgewater just picked apart Rutgers like a knife through butter. I've seen Bridgwater slotted very high next year (1-3 pick depending on qb need), and I was very impressed with him, in that game overcoming a pretty serious injury.
 

squicken

Member
LJ, you are up for the Bills in the mock draft

Rich Eisen had Daniel Jeremiah on his podcast for the draft stuff. Not sure how wide spread that system is, but he said the way the Ravens grade guys isn't by round, but Immediate Starter, Eventual Starter, Possible Starter, Backup. Only immediate starter at QB was Geno. he also said Andy Reid is real big on long arms for OL and DL, and Floyd has relatively short arms
 

LJ11

Member
LJ, you are up for the Bills in the mock draft

Rich Eisen had Daniel Jeremiah on his podcast for the draft stuff. Not sure how wide spread that system is, but he said the way the Ravens grade guys isn't by round, but Immediate Starter, Eventual Starter, Possible Starter, Backup. Only immediate starter at QB was Geno. he also said Andy Reid is real big on long arms for OL and DL, and Floyd has relatively short arms

Ravens are unique in the way they scout as well, they don't use either scouting service, Pats don't, Raiders didn't and I think the Bengals might not as well.

GAF Mock draft has always been about choosing the player you think your team is going to take. Pretty sure the Bills will take a QB, but I'm not sure a QB is worth the 8th overall pick. They desperately needed an offensive tackle last season, but didn't get desperate and reach. I think they're going to do it the same way this year. Nassib and Wilson are the only two possibilities but with 6 picks, next to no moves in FA, and a ton of holes you would be wise to trade back regardless off return and then make a play for a QB. You don't need a haul either. This is the Bills though, so....

They've gone D heavy the last few years, need some offense, and I'm using the CJ rational to make this pick.

Tavon Austin, find me a better more explosive offensive threat in this draft? You can't.
 

BigAT

Member
Dumervil is 5'11", 260 lbs. For the sake of comparison, the Ravens' starting DE in the Super Bowl was Arthur Jones, who is 6'3", 315 lbs. Their other "end" position (technically a DT) was Ngata (6'4", 330).
 

squicken

Member
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/43244182

Kind of going off of this article, but how do you grade a QB draft choice? Is it pass/fail? How good does a QB have to be to be a pass or a fail? If I told you that a QB was going to be Matt Schaub. That is his ceiling and his floor. Would you take him in the second round? Not to try and flip in a trade, but keep on the roster?

If you drafted him to start but he ends up as the backup, is that okay for a third round pick? The Texans giving him an extension was foolish, but did they get good value for two seconds they gave up in the trade w/ATL? Or is a mediocre QB worse than a bad QB, b/c you keep trying to build around them instead of moving on?

So if Barkely is drafted at the top of the second round, and turns out to be Sanchez pre-2012, is that okay for where he was drafted? Or w/ QBs that are drafted to start, must they be top-10 at their positions, or else are failures? Does it help remembering that Flacco was the 15-20th best QB in the regular season last year? Or that Eli Manning has found himself in that range before? What do you want from a second round QB? If he was Joe Flacco after 4 years, would you have moved on?
 
Shamelessly stolen from BBI. Cosell discusses WR, TE's and more. Lots of good information. His view of Tavon Austin lines up with LJ's.:)

Tennessee's Cordarrelle Patterson
Cosell: "I think Patterson will be drafted [high] solely because of his size and his dynamic movement. I don't think he's anywhere close to being a quality receiver in terms of the subtleties of how to run routes. In fact, he's so much quicker and more dynamic with the ball in his hands as opposed to running routes. Running routes he's not that dynamic because he doesn't know how to do it yet."

"He has good hands. I saw on film he has a wide catching radius. He can make difficult catches. But what he needs to do is use his speed and movement much more effectively as a route runner, not just with the ball in his hands. And that will take time."

Farrar: "When your quarterback is Tyler Bray, you're going to have to have a wide catching radius, or else you're not going to get the ball."

West Virginia's Tavon Austin
One of Cosell's favorite players in the draft. Would draft him in the top 10-12. Austin fits where this league's going as it moves more towards a passing/space league. Believes the old, conventional concepts of how to use receivers -- he's a z, he's an x, he's a slot -- is a bit old school.

"There's no more explosive, dynamic player in this draft than Tavon Austin," Cosell said. "He's a dynamic combination of both short-space quickness and long acceleration."

Clemson's DeAndre Hopkins
Farrar raved about Hopkins' defined route sense, saying he's a quality fit for offenses where option routes are the "order of the day."

Cosell praised his "excellent" hands, ability to snatch the ball away from his body, body control, and competitiveness with the ball in the air. Feels he's a bit straight-line in his movement. Not a burner, but has deceptive speed. A little stiff. Not a smooth, fluid receiver in terms of change of direction. Thinks he has some similarities to Anquan Boldin with better straight-line speed.

California's Keenan Allen
Cosell prefers Allen to Hopkins because he's a smoother, laterally quicker athlete. Very compact in his vertical stem; every route looked the same.

USC's Robert Woods
Cosell feels he's deceptively quick and very good after the catch. Thinks he's more than just a slot receiver. More methodical and measured than purely explosive.

Louisiana Tech's Quinton Patton
Farrar likes him as an underneath guy, but doesn't know where that fits in today's NFL. Praises his command of the little things, but says he lacks breakaway speed. Feels receivers who don't play multiple positions and can't move around in the offense will be devalued. Says Patton has build-up speed.

Cosell believes he looked faster on film than his timed 40 from the Combine. Thinks his movement and stride length fit better on the outside than in the slot. Ran limited route tree and always lined up on the right side of the formation in Louisiana Tech's offense. Not a burner.

Oregon State's Markus Wheaton
Cosell: Clearly a smooth, fluid athlete. Has explosive gear, excellent play speed, explosive acceleration. Needs to refine his route running skills so that he plays to his natural quickness and speed more consistently. In every game he watched, he was the fastest player on the field. Similar to Mike Wallace when he came out of Ole Miss because he's a vertical route runner who can lift the coverage. Has extensive experience in NFL passing game concepts because of Mike Riley, therefore his learning curve will be quicker.

Texas A& M's Ryan Swope
Cosell feels he's not just a slot receiver, but doesn't play to his 40 time from the Combine. Good lateral quickness and great recognition of coverage for option routes from the slot.

Texas' Marquise Goodwin
Farrar could see offenses in which he wouldn't play more than 25% of the time. But he also sees offenses in which they'd want to get him on the field 80-90% of the time.

Cosell: He's a straight-line speed player with position versatility in a creative offensive scheme. Not a good route runner at this point. Doesn't really know how to use his vertical stem to break down cushions and set up corners. Not lateral. He's a vertical speed guy with great top-end acceleration. A space player with outstanding straight-line acceleration. How many snaps will he play? Not even in the same ballpark as Tavon Austin.

West Virginia's Stedman Bailey
There's a smooth glide to his movement, according to Cosell. More short area quickness than explosive long speed, but can get over the top on a defense on occasion. Does he only come in when you go three or more receivers? He's not an X. Could he be a Z? Is he a multi-package player?

Baylor's Terrence Williams
Farrar sees a lot of talent, but it's in fits and starts.

Cosell thinks he's not a true burner, but he's a good top-end accelerator with straight-line speed. Plays and looks faster on film than he times. Saw him separate with the ball in the air. A work in progress who has a chance to be a very good vertical receiver.

Tennessee's Justin Hunter
Cosell called him someone who fascinates him because his ceiling is really high, but he may never get there. Questions his hands. Thinks he's got a very similar body type and similar athletic skill set to A.J. Green. He'll never reach his ceiling until he catches the ball better, but his size and fluidity of movement are really impressive.

Notre Dame's Tyler Eifert
Cosell's favorite tight end in this draft. Thinks his athleticism and movement are tops at the position. Deceptively smooth athlete. Has shown the ability to run vertical routes from split wide receiver position vs. corners. More athletic than Kyle Rudolph and a better prospect than Zach Ertz because he's more athletic with better overall receiving skills. In today's NFL, he's a first-round pick.

Stanford's Zach Ertz
Cosell likes Ertz. Feels comparison to Jason Witten coming out of Tennessee is very valid. Thinks Ertz has a similar physical baseline to Witten. Has very soft hands. Deceptive route quickness with ability to separate vs. man coverage. But not the athlete Eifert is.

San Diego State's Gavin Escobar
Not purely fast, but his stride length is what's really interesting because he covers an awful lot of ground once he gets moving, according to Cosell. Had better numbers with Ryan Lindley at quarterback two years ago. A very intriguing prospect in the new-age NFL because of his size. Thinks he can be a joker who can line up all over the formation. Can be a matchup issue for defenses.

Rice's Vance McDonald
Cosell thinks he can work the seams and the short to intermediate areas. Had some trouble catching the ball at times. An athletic tight end with very good receiving ability. Fluid for his size. Lined up all over in Rice's offense.

Cincinnati's Travis Kelce
A very good athlete for his size, Cosell says. Runs well and can accelerate. A fluid guy who's a little nasty. Can get on the line and block, which most of these tight ends can't do. Could be drafted higher than people think.

Florida's Jordan Reed
Reed is a player who fascinates Cosell. Says he's not quite Aaron Hernandez, but has similar traits. Two kids from Connecticut who both went to Florida. Not an in-line guy, but very versatile. Has the athletic ability and the movement to be a weapon on the perimeter. Ran wide receiver routes from plus-split alignments.

https://twitter.com/gregcosell/status/314772053628706816
 

LJ11

Member
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/43244182

Kind of going off of this article, but how do you grade a QB draft choice? Is it pass/fail? How good does a QB have to be to be a pass or a fail? If I told you that a QB was going to be Matt Schaub. That is his ceiling and his floor. Would you take him in the second round? Not to try and flip in a trade, but keep on the roster?

If you drafted him to start but he ends up as the backup, is that okay for a third round pick? The Texans giving him an extension was foolish, but did they get good value for two seconds they gave up in the trade w/ATL? Or is a mediocre QB worse than a bad QB, b/c you keep trying to build around them instead of moving on?

So if Barkely is drafted at the top of the second round, and turns out to be Sanchez pre-2012, is that okay for where he was drafted? Or w/ QBs that are drafted to start, must they be top-10 at their positions, or else are failures? Does it help remembering that Flacco was the 15-20th best QB in the regular season last year? Or that Eli Manning has found himself in that range before? What do you want from a second round QB? If he was Joe Flacco after 4 years, would you have moved on?

Had a lengthy reply but I refreshed by accident, that sucked.

To sum up, lets look at the Alex Smith trade. Is he worth a 2nd round pick to me, no? Most fans, including myself, overvalue selections at times, with think our team can nail the selection even though it's far from a sure thing.

It's clear the Chiefs think they have enough to compete with, why else would they make such a move? Probably feel like O and D are set, a piece here or there remaining, but they need to stop the bleeding/losing. So why not go out and get a stop gap that can help you in the short term, also helps you groom the guy who may eventually take over. All you need him to do is not fuck things up, hand the ball off, PA pass to Bowe, and hit Charles on screens. To the Chiefs brass this all they want, this production is enough, and a 2nd round pick is fair value.

No one has traded more mediocre QBs for 2nd round picks than Andy Reid, but I guess he really values these guys. To Reid it's enough to compete with, but I don't think he believes he can win with them. Guess it's all about expectations.

Niners dumped Smith because they weren't fine with just competing/getting back to relevancy, expectations changed after year 1. Small window, good enough team, win now or lose players/get older. This is in sharp contrast to a team like the Ravens, who had a good to great defense and kept trying to get by with Kyle Boller at QB. Key difference though, Ravens FO made that choice while the Niners brass inherited Smith, easy to dump a guy you're not tied to. Hard for a lot of these guys, even Newsome, to admit when they're wrong.

Back to the draft, lots of good stuff from Cosell. I like what I saw from Patterson but I did describe him as stiff off the line, I don't know how else to label it to be honest. Just seemed like he wasn't moving fast off the line and into his route, but then you watch him after the catch and you're pretty amazed at how quickly he builds speed, also has make you miss moves.

Swope's an interesting receiver, honestly think he sucks because he doesn't seem to be good at anything, well one thing, he's always open after the play breaksdown. Finds ways to get behind a D or sit in the perfect hole. Not sure how this will translate. I agree about the game speed, he does not play as fast as he timed, was shocked by how fast he ran at the combine.

Good job with the mock draft, went by quick. On one of the Bills boards we do a group mock, every day we put a team on the clock and we all vote on the player, tally it up and that's the selection. Just an idea.

Edit: Also, is there a way to actually subscribe to Farrar/Cosell podcast? I'm either a moron or these guys haven't put up an easy solution, don't want to use iTunes either.
 
Good job with the mock draft, went by quick. On one of the Bills boards we do a group mock, every day we put a team on the clock and we all vote on the player, tally it up and that's the selection. Just an idea.

Edit: Also, is there a way to actually subscribe to Farrar/Cosell podcast? I'm either a moron or these guys haven't put up an easy solution, don't want to use iTunes either.
I like that. May float that for next years draft and see how folks respond.

No clue on the subscription question, LJ. They have a page on yahoo but I see nothing for subbing to it.
 

squicken

Member
Good job with the mock draft, went by quick. On one of the Bills boards we do a group mock, every day we put a team on the clock and we all vote on the player, tally it up and that's the selection. Just an idea.

Edit: Also, is there a way to actually subscribe to Farrar/Cosell podcast? I'm either a moron or these guys haven't put up an easy solution, don't want to use iTunes either.

I like that idea. We could do the vote mock in this thread so you can have input. As far as the Shutdown Corner Podcast, I usually link to it, but for some reason their iTunes integration is messed up. For some reason they don't compress their podcast, and it's always like 100MB. Think that messes things up

I actually had a bit of a back and forth with Tanier on Twitter. He seems to think the way a team like CIN should proceed, a team with a decent but limiting QB, is to keep building around him but always draft QBs in the middle rounds with the hope they hit. That's what SEA did w/Whitehurst/TJack/Flynn. Lower risk moves that finally paid off with Russell
 

chuckddd

Fear of a GAF Planet
Swope's an interesting receiver, honestly think he sucks because he doesn't seem to be good at anything, well one thing, he's always open after the play breaksdown. Finds ways to get behind a D or sit in the perfect hole. Not sure how this will translate. I agree about the game speed, he does not play as fast as he timed, was shocked by how fast he ran at the combine.
Sounds like a perfect fit for Roethlisberger.
 

squicken

Member
Cossel's piece on Geno

One final point with Smith, and this is the one that most troubles me. Quite honestly, I do not know if this can be rectified or not. Some I have talked to say yes, others no. It’s what I call "slow eyes." Smith consistently took an extra beat to pull the trigger on well defined throws that were there. It was particularly noticeable, but not limited to, play action, which provides more clarity and definition for the quarterback since it’s almost always an either-or read. If it’s an anticipation issue, that’s something that must be looked at very closely. I thought back to Matt Ryan when he came out of Boston College in 2008. He threw with outstanding anticipation; he had an intuitive feel for delivering the ball before receivers came out of their breaks. That was one reason I felt very good about his transition to the NFL. Smith did not show that attribute on film. It must be evaluated carefully. It’s not something that can be overlooked.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...geno-smith-still-progress-204826284--nfl.html
 
I can't even post this all so I'm just going to link to the post on BBI but this user put up an analysis done by a coaching friend of his on Super Bowl 42 including a breakdown of the defensive alignments Spags used along with extensive play breakdowns and MUCH MUCH more. It's great, great stuff and if you're into higher level football, it should make for an amazing read:

http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=469359

Some pics (play by play breakdown and much more)


I'll be busy tonight:)
 

Kastrioti

Persecution Complex
Where do you guys get these overhead shots showing offensive/defensive schemes? I'd really like to point out and show you guys how defenses were always in nickle coverage, dropping their DBs far back because our RBs had no explosiveness to break open the play and keep those defenses in check.
 

Kastrioti

Persecution Complex
Nevermind this talk of Bill drafting shit for Defense (Hightower will kill you if he finds out, LJ):

CBSSports on Retracting the creation of the Pistol Formation

Hah, had no idea Kap was a Wing-T QB in high school. No wonder he didn't really get recruited because Wing T QBs rarely, ever pass the ball.

As a defensive lineman I got my ass handed to me the one time we played a Wing-T offense. It was my worst game of the year. It's such a confusing offense to read as a defensive lineman, because you have so many RBs in the backfield and the whole line of scrimmage is such a mess, with so many fake handoffs and lineman everywhere, you can't see where the ball is. I was great at reading bootlegs, fake handoffs, but the WingT fucked me up.

For some reason its not used in college-pros. I remember one of our coaches even calling Glendora HS pussies for running the Wing T haha.

Scott Linehans offense in Detroit is mostly run from the pistol formation. I love the way its run but obviously with Stafford not being mobile we need a RB to take that pressure off of him and the receiver corp.
 

BigAT

Member
I can't even post this all so I'm just going to link to the post on BBI but this user put up an analysis done by a coaching friend of his on Super Bowl 42 including a breakdown of the defensive alignments Spags used along with extensive play breakdowns and MUCH MUCH more. It's great, great stuff and if you're into higher level football, it should make for an amazing read:

http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=469359

Some pics (play by play breakdown and much more)

I'll be busy tonight:)

Wow, looks like a great resource. I'll definitely check it out at some point soon.

I finished up reading The Essential Smart Football today. Overall a good read, but I felt like there were some topics that were hurt by the short form essay style. There were definitely times when I was hoping he would go more in depth just as the piece was ending.
 

squicken

Member
Gruden had LJ's boy Tyler Wilson on yesterday. The white board part was lame. Mumbled something about giving away plays. Guess I'm not as good as others at reading all the subtext with the show

Where do you guys get these overhead shots showing offensive/defensive schemes? I'd really like to point out and show you guys how defenses were always in nickle coverage, dropping their DBs far back because our RBs had no explosiveness to break open the play and keep those defenses in check.

Subscribe to NFL Game Rewind. For every game, you have the choice of seeing the plays from either the broadcast or from the coaches tape.
 

Kastrioti

Persecution Complex
Gruden had LJ's boy Tyler Wilson on yesterday. The white board part was lame. Mumbled something about giving away plays. Guess I'm not as good as others at reading all the subtext with the show

I saw a 3 minute clip preview of the Tyler Wilson QB camp yesterday. One thing that Gruden pointed out, that I wouldn't have ever noticed, is how Tyler has such an awkward first step after the ball is snapped. He said something like it was a giant goose step IIRC.

Tyler is in shotgun, ball gets snapped, and he takes one giant step back then throws the ball as opposed to proper footwork of taking a few small steps and letting momentum build for the throw.

Ball is snapped in Tylers hands --> He takes one giant step back --> Throws the Ball. Awkward as fuck.

I've always been a fan of Wilson, but Gruden pointing that out kind of threw me off. He's always had a solid arm though and I guess that strong SEC arm reminded me a bit of Jay Cutler and Matt Stafford, but that footwork needs some coaching, big time.
 

squicken

Member
I saw a 3 minute clip preview of the Tyler Wilson QB camp yesterday. One thing that Gruden pointed out, that I wouldn't have ever noticed, is how Tyler has such an awkward first step after the ball is snapped. He said something like it was a giant goose step IIRC.

Tyler is in shotgun, ball gets snapped, and he takes one giant step back then throws the ball as opposed to proper footwork of taking a few small steps and letting momentum build for the throw.

Ball is snapped in Tylers hands --> He takes one giant step back --> Throws the Ball. Awkward as fuck.

I've always been a fan of Wilson, but Gruden pointing that out kind of threw me off. He's always had a solid arm though and I guess that strong SEC arm reminded me a bit of Jay Cutler and Matt Stafford, but that footwork needs some coaching, big time.

Yeah that was good. And Gruden pointed out it got worse as the season went on, and how his footwork cost them a score vs Tulsa. I've got Lattimore on the DVR, but so far, the guy who most impressed was Barkley. You can tell why people say he commands the room. Too bad about his arm and slow feet
 

Draxal

Member
Yeah that was good. And Gruden pointed out it got worse as the season went on, and how his footwork cost them a score vs Tulsa. I've got Lattimore on the DVR, but so far, the guy who most impressed was Barkley. You can tell why people say he commands the room. Too bad about his arm and slow feet

Well, can't blame Wilson, his piss was too hot (there was no coaching there).
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
I can't even post this all so I'm just going to link to the post on BBI but this user put up an analysis done by a coaching friend of his on Super Bowl 42 including a breakdown of the defensive alignments Spags used along with extensive play breakdowns and MUCH MUCH more. It's great, great stuff and if you're into higher level football, it should make for an amazing read:

http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=469359

Some pics (play by play breakdown and much more)






I'll be busy tonight:)
I just saw the BBI topic, wow.

I'm diving in to this with the game on. Can't wait.
 

Talon

Member
Rob Rang is really down on Jordan. He lives in NW and said there just was never the production in school to warrant all the hype he is getting. I'm not really following pass rushers but his numbers are meh for top 5 guy
I saw maybe every Oregon game from 2008-2011 (off and on last season). Guy never impressed me. We're venturing on Ghoulston territory with the talk around him.
 

squicken

Member
I saw maybe every Oregon game from 2008-2011 (off and on last season). Guy never impressed me. We're venturing on Ghoulston territory with the talk around him.

Someone brought this up, but I guess Clay Matthews had 4.5 sacks his senior year. I really have no idea, but maybe Jordan just never was given enough opportunities?
 
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