-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
- NSFW
GymWolf
Member
I'm conflicted, if they lowered the graphic to have even better simulation i cant really fault them, it's not like people buy gta for the graphic...
Maybe they just prioritized other things.
PeteBull
Member
GymWolf
Member
Final gears 1 and especially primal didnt looked THAT far away tho, primal look decent even today.Those screenshots are clear bullshots, and everyone that has seen Ubisoft, EA, Sony, MS bullshots before - should recognize this in 1s.
Exactly.
Character faces look almost like GenAi on some of them. Weird stuff.
Reminding people about bullshots of the past:
Now the w3 one is ridicolous...
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
nah, gears 1 looked nothing like it. never played primal.
Negotiator101
Member
This, more NPC's, more detailed environment's and better AI to create even better emergent gameplay is what GTA is all about.
Balducci30
Member
Eh the close ups look on par tho, this seems like an LOD/style thingI think they might've had to downgrade the hair quality quite a bit to render on the PS5.
The hair and beard quality in this screenshot seems almost like a RDR2 screenshot. Night and day compared to the screenshots Rockstar released last year
Last edited:
H . R . 2
Member
Grand Theft Auto 6 Has "Near-Instant" Load Times on PS5, as Sony Outlines DualSense Support
From adaptive triggers with dynamic resistance to integrated speaker support, PS5 is seemingly the place to play Rockstar's next.
also interesting:
PS6 Could Use AI Features Like Frame Generation to Offer The "Feel" Of 4K/120 FPS – Rumor
The report comes from a discussion about how Sony can keep the PS6's price reasonable despite the current state of hardware.
GymWolf
Member
Primal look fine even today, and their animal ecosystem still shit on most open world games.
I guess i have nostalgie googles memory for gears...
Is this really that much worse in term of models?
I think out of all the examples, gears and primal are definitely not the worst offenders, gears still looked mindblowing at a launch.
Last edited:
Bojji
Member
I don't know, Gears CGI bullshot is like 2x or 3x better than the game (and has good lighting not present in UE3):
Primal looks decent but doesn't look like this screenshot.
What is funny is that I think TW3 ss is the least problematic one, lol.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
im def not counting on it
GymWolf
Member
I mean the bullshit example is also cutscene, no way that scene was during normal gameplay so we are comparing cutscene vs cutscenes...unless i misread what you said.I don't know, Gears CGI bullshot is like 2x or 3x better than the game (and has good lighting not present in UE3):
Primal looks decent but doesn't look like this screenshot.
What is funny is that I think TW3 ss is the least problematic one, lol.
Primal doesnt look exactly like that blurry af screenshot but it can look...extremely similar?
Add some fog and you have 90% of that bullshot...
I replayed like 15 hours of the game last year maxed out and it still look pleasant, i cant say the same about vanilla w3...
Last edited:
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
GTA 6 seems to be a huge open world game with better visuals than most closed and small world games...nuts.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
i dont know anymore. i figured they would drop the trailer the moment the preorders went live, but if they are going live at midnight and theyve already released 55 screenshots, the third trailer is probably not coming. and we will have to make do with these screenshots.
RDR2's trailer 3 was released in may, so we are already due for a trailer but who knows what they are thinking.
H . R . 2
Member
what about YT's statement?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
there is no way ps6 is going to be under $700 if the pro is selling for $900 right now.
ssd and ram prices have both exploded and even though they went with a small gpu chip, the ssd will likely be more expensive than their amd SoC and the ram will be expensive than both.
they are saying that the AI bubble should burst any moment now. everyone thinks its a matter of time. and that should bring the prices down, but im not so sure. everyone is too deep into it. nvidia, microsoft, open ai, google, are all going to make sure there is no crash. its too big to fail now. which means the prices may never come down.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
when i played it in 2010, it looked like garbage lol.Primal look fine even today, and their animal ecosystem still shit on most open world games.
I guess i have nostalgie googles memory for gears...
Is this really that much worse in term of models?
I think out of all the examples, gears and primal are definitely not the worst offenders, gears still looked mindblowing at a launch.
gears 2 looked much better, and in cutscenes came close.
H . R . 2
Member
Gabe said he didn't have much bargaining power against RAM manufacturers for the production of the Steam Machine
it doesn't bode well for PS6 and the next Xbox
anyasok
Member
Imagine the riot if there is no trailer 3 tmrw....
GymWolf
Member
I mean you played 4 years after release
At launch it was super impressive, you really missed big both on graphic awe and playing a gears for the first time with the rest of the world.
Last edited:
H . R . 2
Member
people will still pre-order regardless, but from a marketing perspective the consumer has the right to know what they are purchasing
a gampeplay deep dive, or another trailer with at least snippets of gameplay footage would still work wonders
UNLESS
the game is not ready and they are cunningly waiting for the preorders to reach a certain figure to announce another delay
but even that would have to come with another trailer to regain the fans' support
PeteBull
Member
First 2 years they can sell ps6 at 999 discless and core audience will bite, lets not forget 599 ps3 price from 2006 is 986$ now, and we are still 1,5years away from holidays 2027 launch xD
Last edited:
PeteBull
Member
squallbr
Member
So hotI think they might've had to downgrade the hair quality quite a bit to render on the PS5.
The hair and beard quality in this screenshot seems almost like a RDR2 screenshot. Night and day compared to the screenshots Rockstar released last year
Gonzito
Gold Member
Would play with those in my bathtub 4sure
anyasok
Member
It just looks awful. Like fuck man if a billion dollar game cant cut it what can we expect of everyone else. This is plain Avowed levelSo hot
Last edited:
squallbr
Member
So do like me, DONT BUY IT
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
oh shit. Schrier saying Laufey is a February 2027 game. looks like they pulled out of the holiday season to avoid GTA6.
so 4 year dev time? pretty decent but could also suggest a cross gen-ish game.
so 4 year dev time? pretty decent but could also suggest a cross gen-ish game.
GymWolf
Member
We need to see how big it is, is it another 50++ hours game like ragnarock with a huge amount of content or more 15-20ish hours? i doubt they go lower than that.
Last edited:
viveks86
Member
What if I prove to you that, technically, they may have RT reflections, RTGI and potentially RT shadows in cutscenes?
Let's leave the gameplay portion aside for a full reveal as it's too brief and motion blurry to deduce anything aside from RT reflections.
But what if I prove those 3 RT features exist in cutscenes, running in realtime? Will that change your mind on what they are technically supporting for realtime rendering? Long analysis incoming. I didn't bother doing this 16 months ago as I used to take DF's word on everything. But all the recent commentary on ND's hiring made me take a closer look.
Msamy
This is a bigger post than my Laufey breakdown, so I'm compressing it in spoilers wherever it seems a bit much. Do take your time to go through it all as, again, it requires a step by step examination
Let's start with the easy one - RT reflections. Anyone that is denying even that is straight up trolling or blind from confirmation bias. Outside of the opening shot, which is most likely their souped up version of planar reflections with adjustable DoF (they may be the first to do DoF like that on planar reflections), there is RT reflections EVERYWHERE. I've not seen a single game pull it off to this extent on console. Even Cyberpunk on Pro (which is currently the best implementation of RT reflections on console imo) has limitations on what surfaces have it.
Now here's proof that at least a single bounce from ALL light sources appears to be per pixel RTGI. Let's start by establishing that pretty much everything that looks like it's emitting light is actually emitting light. They aren't just adding bloom or post-process glow. You would think this little glowing "Ignition" text is just an emissive texture that doesn't affect its surroundings right?
Nope. Actually, pay attention to all the points of interest that I've marked above and follow them in the GIF below. See how all those points change in GIF form:
Notice the light from "Ignition" getting occluded by other fingers, causing her thumb to be lit by it differently every frame. Also notice the bottom of the second pair of switches or the reflections above. They disappear in the last frame. That's specular GI from the first pair of switches originating from "Ignition" and specular reflections of the same switch at the top. Once it moves from position, the shiny metal doesn't cast specular GI to the second pair. You will notice the specular reflection of the "Ignition" disappear from the moving switch itself, because the angle has changed. The specular GI also disappears from above the console due to changing angle of specular bounce. This is INSANE detail, all happening in consecutive frames.
You will see this behavior throughout the trailer. Everything that glows, lights up the surroundings as well. Apart from path tracing, there are 3 ways to pull this off in real time at the moment that I'm aware of. A megalights like solution to make all emissive textures a light source. This would seem overkill, but is always a possibility going forward as other engines are starting to have this feature. But let's assume this is not in place as we are only trying to establish what is the bare minimum required. Also, the opening shot casts only one shadow on her that doesn't reconcile with the mirror lights in all 4 directions, which should really function like a ring light with no harsh shadowing falling on herself as a result, so that suggests this isn't an infinite shadow casting lighting solution, but more selective traditional direct lights. But on the other hand, this could also be an artistic choice where they wanted some obvious shadowing. Let's assume no megalights until there is other conclusive evidence for it. I see no conclusive evidence of something that advanced in the trailer.
The second option is RT emissives, where the emissive texture is ray traced for illumination of surroundings and objects that the light can reach. Cyberpunk does this on Pro. This would be sufficient for most things shown in the trailer and I assumed this to be the case for Intergalactic, even though DF missed it. However, there are a couple of scenes that RT emissives would not suffice
Both can be seen in the trailer.
Notice how the bounce light on the cover increases as her thumb gets in front of the light source. That's extra light rays bouncing off her thumb to the cover, causing it to brighten even more initially
and then the bounce light gradually reduces as her finger starts covering the light altogether. Incredible demonstration of SSS as well
Bojji
Or here, back to the switches, where you can literally break down each frame for direct and indirect illumination. There is a 1 frame lag, which is quite common in realtime RTGI versus prerendered, where indirect bounces are expected to be near instantaneous.
Frame 1 & 2: No light:
Frame 3: Direct light on. No GI yet
Frame 4: Direct + GI
Frame 5: Direct light + additional GI
In GIF form again:
On second pair of switches. Behaves exactly the same way
Frame one: No light
Frame two: Direct light. No GI yet
Frame three: Direct + GI
IN GIF:
The most important part isn't what is happening to the static asset (even though it's quite dramatic). But what is happening to the dynamic object ie her hand. Can't do that shit without RTGI.
In fact, there are subtle changes to GI that I see even after 6 frames
Frame 1 vs Frame 6: Direct + GI (see right corner above last pair of switches. Hand being in the frame causes more GI bounce)
Unlike lumen, the energy transfer is much less laggy, so majority of things light up within just 1 frame ie 16.6 ms lag. And a bit more in the following frame. This is multi-bounce RTGI.
These are quite literally consecutive frames. These cannot be faked in realtime rendering as it's way too nuanced. They will have to build lightmaps for every frame and swap them out. Might as well prerender offline.
And here's an example of color bleed. Her jacket bouncing its color onto the side of the table from overhead lights. The specularity of the table's side trim picks up the color bounce quite nicely.
GIF:
I'm specifically pulling up dynamic objects as static objects have tons of GI that ND has done before with just baking. But even their baking was not to his extent. A couple of examples of potential PT levels of baking, or just a nice byproduct of RTGI, can't say for sure:
Not the shadow of sticky note taking a blue tone and marker, sticky note and jacket below:
Notice how the tube light is contained throughout the recess and spills out of the edge. Generally a baked or non-RT scene is never designed with these types of thin tube lights, as lighting for every pixel needs to be calculated using ray tracing instead of standard spherical lighting models. Alex had rightly called this out as evidence of RTGI in GTA 6 as well. But I'm not relying on it as conclusive proof as this is a curated static scene compared to dynamic day/night cycles of GTA 6. They could bake the heck out of all this with offline path tracing. But the ones I presented earlier cannot be baked. So to keep performance up, they could be having a combination of baked lighting for static/immovable assets and RTGI for dynamic assets. Or it's all driven by RTGI. Or a base layer of bake to keep IQ up and then multiple bounces staggered over time for the final touch. No way to tell from such a highly curated trailer.
Now coming to RT shadows (
Vick
's favorite topic) that I'm a little less confident about:
The sheer complexity of some shadows in the footage and how dynamic they are makes me think these are near impossible with traditional shadow maps. DF brought up the punched holes having accurate shadows as evidence:
It's a solid example, but given their insane baking qualities even on last gen, I find other dynamic shadows even more convincing. Look at the way this cloth gets tossed with self shadowing, contact hardening and a complete change in shape from start to finish. How would they even achieve that with a shadow map? Every frame is an entire different shape with it folded into itself, while also casting variable penumbra.
Or the way the straw shadow's variable penumbra expands to oblivion as it leaves her lips. PCSS can only go so far. It will still preserve the overall geometry of the shadow map. It completely changes here, exactly how RT shadows or the real world/PT behaves.
Unrelated bonus:
Bojji
Looks at the stunning SSS here on the plastic lid. It even reacts correctly to different parts of the screen shining through
I'm still not 100% convinced about RT shadows as they may be using novel techniques that are simply beyond what I've been exposed to. But you can certainly build a case for RT shadows with all this evidence combined.
Inside of fingers reflecting on safety buckle (Responds to lighting change as well)
Occluded finger tips on other reflective surfaces (see above "Sony")
See her index finger below equalizer (side note: the light intensity also gradually increases on all surfaces) :
Occluded back of yoke reflecting on dashboard (see under "Stand By")
Even individual switch knobs reflecting her finger
Reflections of Jordan on transparent glass in door. It's detailed enough to see her ear too (see in GIF form later below)
Television screen
There are much more obvious ones of her RT reflection on the screen later that everyone would have seen, but you can see her raising her gun in the last few frames (moving reflection on agent's right shoulder).
Gameplay:
You can even tell it's pure RT with no SSR layered in at all as the red GI bounce from the blade on the robot does not show in the reflection. A likely optimization as it would require GI to be handled in reflections as well. Usually PT is the only one that solves that for RTGI.
Occluded finger tips on other reflective surfaces (see above "Sony")
See her index finger below equalizer (side note: the light intensity also gradually increases on all surfaces) :
Occluded back of yoke reflecting on dashboard (see under "Stand By")
Even individual switch knobs reflecting her finger
Reflections of Jordan on transparent glass in door. It's detailed enough to see her ear too (see in GIF form later below)
Television screen
There are much more obvious ones of her RT reflection on the screen later that everyone would have seen, but you can see her raising her gun in the last few frames (moving reflection on agent's right shoulder).
Gameplay:
You can even tell it's pure RT with no SSR layered in at all as the red GI bounce from the blade on the robot does not show in the reflection. A likely optimization as it would require GI to be handled in reflections as well. Usually PT is the only one that solves that for RTGI.
Now here's proof that at least a single bounce from ALL light sources appears to be per pixel RTGI. Let's start by establishing that pretty much everything that looks like it's emitting light is actually emitting light. They aren't just adding bloom or post-process glow. You would think this little glowing "Ignition" text is just an emissive texture that doesn't affect its surroundings right?
Nope. Actually, pay attention to all the points of interest that I've marked above and follow them in the GIF below. See how all those points change in GIF form:
Notice the light from "Ignition" getting occluded by other fingers, causing her thumb to be lit by it differently every frame. Also notice the bottom of the second pair of switches or the reflections above. They disappear in the last frame. That's specular GI from the first pair of switches originating from "Ignition" and specular reflections of the same switch at the top. Once it moves from position, the shiny metal doesn't cast specular GI to the second pair. You will notice the specular reflection of the "Ignition" disappear from the moving switch itself, because the angle has changed. The specular GI also disappears from above the console due to changing angle of specular bounce. This is INSANE detail, all happening in consecutive frames.
You will see this behavior throughout the trailer. Everything that glows, lights up the surroundings as well. Apart from path tracing, there are 3 ways to pull this off in real time at the moment that I'm aware of. A megalights like solution to make all emissive textures a light source. This would seem overkill, but is always a possibility going forward as other engines are starting to have this feature. But let's assume this is not in place as we are only trying to establish what is the bare minimum required. Also, the opening shot casts only one shadow on her that doesn't reconcile with the mirror lights in all 4 directions, which should really function like a ring light with no harsh shadowing falling on herself as a result, so that suggests this isn't an infinite shadow casting lighting solution, but more selective traditional direct lights. But on the other hand, this could also be an artistic choice where they wanted some obvious shadowing. Let's assume no megalights until there is other conclusive evidence for it. I see no conclusive evidence of something that advanced in the trailer.
The second option is RT emissives, where the emissive texture is ray traced for illumination of surroundings and objects that the light can reach. Cyberpunk does this on Pro. This would be sufficient for most things shown in the trailer and I assumed this to be the case for Intergalactic, even though DF missed it. However, there are a couple of scenes that RT emissives would not suffice
- Indirect bounce lighting/GI from emissives. RT emissives would only cast direct light
- GI color bleed
Both can be seen in the trailer.
Notice how the bounce light on the cover increases as her thumb gets in front of the light source. That's extra light rays bouncing off her thumb to the cover, causing it to brighten even more initially
and then the bounce light gradually reduces as her finger starts covering the light altogether. Incredible demonstration of SSS as well
Bojji
Or here, back to the switches, where you can literally break down each frame for direct and indirect illumination. There is a 1 frame lag, which is quite common in realtime RTGI versus prerendered, where indirect bounces are expected to be near instantaneous.
Frame 1 & 2: No light:
Frame 3: Direct light on. No GI yet
In GIF form again:
On second pair of switches. Behaves exactly the same way
Frame one: No light
Frame two: Direct light. No GI yet
Frame three: Direct + GI
IN GIF:
The most important part isn't what is happening to the static asset (even though it's quite dramatic). But what is happening to the dynamic object ie her hand. Can't do that shit without RTGI.
In fact, there are subtle changes to GI that I see even after 6 frames
Frame 1 vs Frame 6: Direct + GI (see right corner above last pair of switches. Hand being in the frame causes more GI bounce)
Unlike lumen, the energy transfer is much less laggy, so majority of things light up within just 1 frame ie 16.6 ms lag. And a bit more in the following frame. This is multi-bounce RTGI.
These are quite literally consecutive frames. These cannot be faked in realtime rendering as it's way too nuanced. They will have to build lightmaps for every frame and swap them out. Might as well prerender offline.
And here's an example of color bleed. Her jacket bouncing its color onto the side of the table from overhead lights. The specularity of the table's side trim picks up the color bounce quite nicely.
GIF:
I'm specifically pulling up dynamic objects as static objects have tons of GI that ND has done before with just baking. But even their baking was not to his extent. A couple of examples of potential PT levels of baking, or just a nice byproduct of RTGI, can't say for sure:
Not the shadow of sticky note taking a blue tone and marker, sticky note and jacket below:
Notice how the tube light is contained throughout the recess and spills out of the edge. Generally a baked or non-RT scene is never designed with these types of thin tube lights, as lighting for every pixel needs to be calculated using ray tracing instead of standard spherical lighting models. Alex had rightly called this out as evidence of RTGI in GTA 6 as well. But I'm not relying on it as conclusive proof as this is a curated static scene compared to dynamic day/night cycles of GTA 6. They could bake the heck out of all this with offline path tracing. But the ones I presented earlier cannot be baked. So to keep performance up, they could be having a combination of baked lighting for static/immovable assets and RTGI for dynamic assets. Or it's all driven by RTGI. Or a base layer of bake to keep IQ up and then multiple bounces staggered over time for the final touch. No way to tell from such a highly curated trailer.
Now coming to RT shadows (
Vick
's favorite topic) that I'm a little less confident about:The sheer complexity of some shadows in the footage and how dynamic they are makes me think these are near impossible with traditional shadow maps. DF brought up the punched holes having accurate shadows as evidence:
It's a solid example, but given their insane baking qualities even on last gen, I find other dynamic shadows even more convincing. Look at the way this cloth gets tossed with self shadowing, contact hardening and a complete change in shape from start to finish. How would they even achieve that with a shadow map? Every frame is an entire different shape with it folded into itself, while also casting variable penumbra.
Or the way the straw shadow's variable penumbra expands to oblivion as it leaves her lips. PCSS can only go so far. It will still preserve the overall geometry of the shadow map. It completely changes here, exactly how RT shadows or the real world/PT behaves.
Unrelated bonus:
Bojji
Looks at the stunning SSS here on the plastic lid. It even reacts correctly to different parts of the screen shining through
I'm still not 100% convinced about RT shadows as they may be using novel techniques that are simply beyond what I've been exposed to. But you can certainly build a case for RT shadows with all this evidence combined.
May be they found a way to smartly reuse the same ray bounces for reflections and GI to calculate shadows as well, all in one go? I don't know. Seems too good to be possible on base console. That too at 60 fps.
So the "tech" is quite evidently there. Now we just need to see if it all extends to actual gameplay. And we may yet again see a noticeable downgrade, just like ND has been doing quite consistently on many of their past game announcements versus final gameplay. But looking at the evidence at hand, having all this on base console is actually too good to be true. But none of this indicates "last gen garbage" so far.
And again, this is base console, mind you. No Law is currently king (and that may be high end PC for all we know), but if the Intergalactic trailer holds up in gameplay, it will most certainly beat No law and trade blows with GTA 6 as well. That's assuming GTA 6 trailers and final game holds up too. We'll know more tomorrow.
The only ones that would still be ahead of Integalactic, Clutch, ILL, No law and GTA 6 will be Path Traced games. Those are simply not fair comparisons as that's a different tier altogether.
Like
Gonzito
rightly pointed out, this game is likely to falter in the eyes of a portion of the fanbase on its themes, character models and creative choices. Not tech.
Last edited:
saintjules
Gold Member
I think they might've had to downgrade the hair quality quite a bit to render on the PS5.
The hair and beard quality in this screenshot seems almost like a RDR2 screenshot. Night and day compared to the screenshots Rockstar released last year
I think people were saying this about another game (can't remember) that they would show base console footage to temper expectations. I am fully expecting things like hair and lighting to get downgraded quite a bit for it to run reasonably on base consoles.
The PS5 Pro version will be the superior version with that upgraded PSSR. Xbox currently has no answer to PSSR, so I expect PS5 to really highlight PSSR to make the Pro sell a shit ton into 2027.
Gonzito
Gold Member
These people are just retarded lol
www.digitalfoundry.net
Rockstar Just Released 63 New GTA 6 Screenshots - Here's What We Spotted
A real showcase for the game's ray-traced reflections.
www.digitalfoundry.net
anyasok
Member
I wasnt planning to anyways lol definitely not after seeing this
viveks86
Member
One last item that I missed. You can see indirect bounce lighting casting a secondary shadow on the stool:
Hard to see? Now watch her approach the screen. The darker slanted one is a direct shadow and the much lighter vertical one is a GI bounce shadow as illustrated by the two directional arrows from the light source above
Hard to see? Now watch her approach the screen. The darker slanted one is a direct shadow and the much lighter vertical one is a GI bounce shadow as illustrated by the two directional arrows from the light source above
Yeah I'm not going to bother with marketing shots. Not worth my time for a graphical analysis (though I'd certainly watch others pour over non-graphical details/hints about the game). Will definitely breakdown the trailer though, if one comes out tomorrow. All signs point to that happening.These people are just retarded lol
Rockstar Just Released 63 New GTA 6 Screenshots - Here's What We Spotted
A real showcase for the game's ray-traced reflections.
Last edited:
Balducci30
Member
I doubt they're wrong hereThese people are just retarded lol
Rockstar Just Released 63 New GTA 6 Screenshots - Here's What We Spotted
A real showcase for the game's ray-traced reflections.
Gonzito
Gold Member
Nah. The screenshots we've seen today are a clear confirmation that a base ps5 can handle these graphics
RodriGames40
Member
It's a console game, let's stop at that for a damn sec. This is like saying Zelda TOTK's first trailer was rendered on PCs, you literally won't be able to play this game anywhere else for months.
Balducci30
Member
I'm not really seeing what you mean? What other games have anything close to that level of fidelity at 4k with RT and an open world on base ps5?
Balducci30
Member
I mean yeah all that they're saying is the screenshots/trailers are prob done on a pc so it won't look exactly like that on ps5
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol DF says the ray tracing looks too good in these screenshots so its not the ps5 version. also, native 4k screens.
maybe they are right but we've seen similar rt reflections in the trailers so its kinda odd for them to just dismiss the console versions like that.
still, if these are from pc then we are eating come next year.
maybe they are right but we've seen similar rt reflections in the trailers so its kinda odd for them to just dismiss the console versions like that.
still, if these are from pc then we are eating come next year.
viveks86
Member
It's probably generated on console with photo mode tools and non-realtime super sampling, like several racing games. It says nothing about the platform, power or lack thereof, of anything. For a graphical analysis, they are completely useless. DF and people trying to interpret technical aspects of these shots are wasting their time.
Last edited:
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
very interesting analysis. can you spot stuff like this in cutscenes in games that have baked lighting? like spiderman 2?
What if I prove to you that, technically, they may have RT reflections, RTGI and potentially RT shadows in cutscenes?
Let's leave the gameplay portion aside for a full reveal as it's too brief and motion blurry to deduce anything aside from RT reflections.
But what if I prove those 3 RT features exist in cutscenes, running in realtime? Will that change your mind on what they are technically supporting for realtime rendering? Long analysis incoming. I didn't bother doing this 16 months ago as I used to take DF's word on everything. But all the recent commentary on ND's hiring made me take a closer look.
This is a bigger post than my Laufey breakdown, so I'm compressing it in spoilers wherever it seems a bit much. Do take your time to go through it all as, again, it requires a step by step examination
Let's start with the easy one - RT reflections. Anyone that is denying even that is straight up trolling or blind from confirmation bias. Outside of the opening shot, which is most likely their souped up version of planar reflections with adjustable DoF (they may be the first to do DoF like that on planar reflections), there is RT reflections EVERYWHERE. I've not seen a single game pull it off to this extent on console. Even Cyberpunk on Pro (which is currently the best implementation of RT reflections on console imo) has limitations on what surfaces have it.
Inside of fingers reflecting on safety buckle (Responds to lighting change as well)
Occluded finger tips on other reflective surfaces (see above "Sony")
See her index finger below equalizer (side note: the light intensity also gradually increases on all surfaces) :
Occluded back of yoke reflecting on dashboard (see under "Stand By")
Even individual switch knobs reflecting her finger
Reflections of Jordan on transparent glass in door. It's detailed enough to see her ear too (see in GIF form later below)
Television screen
There are much more obvious ones of her RT reflection on the screen later that everyone would have seen, but you can see her raising her gun in the last few frames (moving reflection on agent's right shoulder).
Gameplay:
You can even tell it's pure RT with no SSR layered in at all as the red GI bounce from the blade on the robot does not show in the reflection. A likely optimization as it would require GI to be handled in reflections as well. Usually PT is the only one that solves that for RTGI.
Now here's proof that at least a single bounce from ALL light sources appears to be per pixel RTGI. Let's start by establishing that pretty much everything that looks like it's emitting light is actually emitting light. They aren't just adding bloom or post-process glow. You would think this little glowing "Ignition" text is just an emissive texture that doesn't affect its surroundings right?
Nope. Actually, pay attention to all the points of interest that I've marked above and follow them in the GIF below. See how all those points change in GIF form:
Notice the light from "Ignition" getting occluded by other fingers, causing her thumb to be lit by it differently every frame. Also notice the bottom of the second pair of switches or the reflections above. They disappear in the last frame. That's specular GI from the first pair of switches originating from "Ignition" and specular reflections of the same switch at the top. Once it moves from position, the shiny metal doesn't cast specular GI to the second pair. You will notice the specular reflection of the "Ignition" disappear from the moving switch itself, because the angle has changed. The specular GI also disappears from above the console due to changing angle of specular bounce. This is INSANE detail, all happening in consecutive frames.
You will see this behavior throughout the trailer. Everything that glows, lights up the surroundings as well. Apart from path tracing, there are 3 ways to pull this off in real time at the moment that I'm aware of. A megalights like solution to make all emissive textures a light source. This would seem overkill, but is always a possibility going forward as other engines are starting to have this feature. But let's assume this is not in place as we are only trying to establish what is the bare minimum required. Also, the opening shot casts only one shadow on her that doesn't reconcile with the mirror lights in all 4 directions, which should really function like a ring light with no harsh shadowing falling on herself as a result, so that suggests this isn't an infinite shadow casting lighting solution, but more selective traditional direct lights. But on the other hand, this could also be an artistic choice where they wanted some obvious shadowing. Let's assume no megalights until there is other conclusive evidence for it. I see no conclusive evidence of something that advanced in the trailer.
The second option is RT emissives, where the emissive texture is ray traced for illumination of surroundings and objects that the light can reach. Cyberpunk does this on Pro. This would be sufficient for most things shown in the trailer and I assumed this to be the case for Intergalactic, even though DF missed it. However, there are a couple of scenes that RT emissives would not suffice
- Indirect bounce lighting/GI from emissives. RT emissives would only cast direct light
- GI color bleed
Both can be seen in the trailer.
Notice how the bounce light on the cover increases as her thumb gets in front of the light source. That's extra light rays bouncing off her thumb to the cover, causing it to brighten even more initially
and then the bounce light gradually reduces as her finger starts covering the light altogether. Incredible demonstration of SSS as well
Or here, back to the switches, where you can literally break down each frame for direct and indirect illumination. There is a 1 frame lag, which is quite common in realtime RTGI versus prerendered, where indirect bounces are expected to be near instantaneous.
Frame 1 & 2: No light:
Frame 3: Direct light on. No GI yet
Frame 4: Direct + GI
Frame 5: Direct light + additional GI
In GIF form again:
On second pair of switches. Behaves exactly the same way
Frame one: No light
Frame two: Direct light. No GI yet
Frame three: Direct + GI
IN GIF:
The most important part isn't what is happening to the static asset (even though it's quite dramatic). But what is happening to the dynamic object ie her hand. Can't do that shit without RTGI.
In fact, there are subtle changes to GI that I see even after 6 frames
Frame 1 vs Frame 6: Direct + GI (see right corner above last pair of switches. Hand being in the frame causes more GI bounce)
Unlike lumen, the energy transfer is much less laggy, so majority of things light up within just 1 frame ie 16.6 ms lag. And a bit more in the following frame. This is multi-bounce RTGI.
These are quite literally consecutive frames. These cannot be faked in realtime rendering as it's way too nuanced. They will have to build lightmaps for every frame and swap them out. Might as well prerender offline.
And here's an example of color bleed. Her jacket bouncing its color onto the side of the table from overhead lights. The specularity of the table's side trim picks up the color bounce quite nicely.
GIF:
I'm specifically pulling up dynamic objects as static objects have tons of GI that ND has done before with just baking. But even their baking was not to his extent. A couple of examples of potential PT levels of baking, or just a nice byproduct of RTGI, can't say for sure:
Not the shadow of sticky note taking a blue tone and marker, sticky note and jacket below:
Notice how the tube light is contained throughout the recess and spills out of the edge. Generally a baked or non-RT scene is never designed with these types of thin tube lights, as lighting for every pixel needs to be calculated using ray tracing instead of standard spherical lighting models. Alex had rightly called this out as evidence of RTGI in GTA 6 as well. But I'm not relying on it as conclusive proof as this is a curated static scene compared to dynamic day/night cycles of GTA 6. They could bake the heck out of all this with offline path tracing. But the ones I presented earlier cannot be baked. So to keep performance up, they could be having a combination of baked lighting for static/immovable assets and RTGI for dynamic assets. Or it's all driven by RTGI. Or a base layer of bake to keep IQ up and then multiple bounces staggered over time for the final touch. No way to tell from such a highly curated trailer.
Now coming to RT shadows (
The sheer complexity of some shadows in the footage and how dynamic they are makes me think these are near impossible with traditional shadow maps. DF brought up the punched holes having accurate shadows as evidence:
It's a solid example, but given their insane baking qualities even on last gen, I find other dynamic shadows even more convincing. Look at the way this cloth gets tossed with self shadowing, contact hardening and a complete change in shape from start to finish. How would they even achieve that with a shadow map? Every frame is an entire different shape with it folded into itself, while also casting variable penumbra.
Or the way the straw shadow's variable penumbra expands to oblivion as it leaves her lips. PCSS can only go so far. It will still preserve the overall geometry of the shadow map. It completely changes here, exactly how RT shadows or the real world/PT behaves.
Unrelated bonus:
I'm still not 100% convinced about RT shadows as they may be using novel techniques that are simply beyond what I've been exposed to. But you can certainly build a case for RT shadows with all this evidence combined.
May be they found a way to smartly reuse the same ray bounces for reflections and GI to calculate shadows as well, all in one go? I don't know. Seems too good to be possible on base console. That too at 60 fps.
So the "tech" is quite evidently there. Now we just need to see if it all extends to actual gameplay. And we may yet again see a noticeable downgrade, just like ND has been doing quite consistently on many of their past game announcements versus final gameplay. But looking at the evidence at hand, having all this on base console is actually too good to be true. But none of this indicates "last gen garbage" so far.
And again, this is base console, mind you. No Law is currently king (and that may be high end PC for all we know), but if the Intergalactic trailer holds up in gameplay, it will most certainly beat No law and trade blows with GTA 6 as well. That's assuming GTA 6 trailers and final game holds up too. We'll know more tomorrow.
The only ones that would still be ahead of Integalactic, Clutch, ILL, No law and GTA 6 will be Path Traced games. Those are simply not fair comparisons as that's a different tier altogether.
Like
PeteBull
Member
Might be combo of ps5pr0 photo mode and in engine cutscenes with settings only unlocked on pc, but who really knows, we will know lots more after seeing 3rd trailer with actual gameplay, so gotta be tiny bit more patient here, no way rockstar opens 80$base edition(and 100$ special edition) preorders without encouraging ppl to preorder with new bombastic trailer
Balducci30
Member
So isn't that saying the same thing at the end of the day? That these screenshots are basically bullshots that are not fully representative of how the game will look?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
i just watched the 3rd rdr2 trailer released in may before the october release and its in 1080p lol. the x1x version was native 4k and they still released the base ps4 footage in the final trailer. i believe the gameplay overview video in august was 4k.Might be combo of ps5pr0 photo mode and in engine cutscenes with settings only unlocked on pc, but who really knows, we will know lots more after seeing 3rd trailer with actual gameplay, so gotta be tiny bit more patient here, no way rockstar opens 80$base edition(and 100$ special edition) preorders without encouraging ppl to preorder with new bombastic trailer
it would be really odd for them to release this many screenshots of not just the pc version, but a version that is clearly not indicative of the final game. they didnt even use ps5 pro footage in trailer 2 even though the pro had been out for 6 months by that point.
Last edited:
PeteBull
Member
Full disclousure i wouldnt be surprised if they have like 5 vesions of same thing with different asset quality/iq/rt settings:
Lowest for xss, then medium for xsx/ps5, high for ps5pr0, ultra for current highend pc and ps6 and 5th total in engine experimental settings that will put to its knees even unreleased 6090 gpu
Similar threads
- Poll