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Coming to terms with the state of the industry…

64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
I guess this is true of western game devs, but so far i dont see Capcom or Sega or Squarw having much issues pumping out a steady dose of AAA games.
Square's biggest game is FF16 this year and everything else is significantly lower budget
Sega doesn't really have anything in the pipeline right now besides sonic frontiers
And capcom's got only 2 games this year which are both AAA though
 

pramod

Banned
Square's biggest game is FF16 this year and everything else is significantly lower budget
Sega doesn't really have anything in the pipeline right now besides sonic frontiers
And capcom's got only 2 games this year which are both AAA though
One AAA game a year is still a lot better than Western studios
 
Those games were pretty cutting edge back in the day though and had good art styles and unique gameplay.
I specifically didn't list the really cutting edge games like Sonic Adventure, Shenmue, Phantasy Star Online, Dead or Alive 2, Soul Calibur 2, etc. The games I've listed above have very simple yet addictive gameplay mechanics with decent enough graphics. Those games are the ones I'm saying wouldn't be celebrated here today. They would have been met with constant criticisms and complaints, buried into obscurity for a LTTP years down the line. For example, a game trailer like Neon White would have been celebrated here back then.



However now, for most it's just another indie annoyance so that they can get back to being fed the main AAA course. I don't know how the industry managed to condition people this way, but it's definitely fascinating and horrifying to witness.

I think people would have reacted similarly if the indies of that time we're Atari like games that made up over 80% of releases.
Tons of indie games this gen keep being released with 3d graphics and for some reason there are people on this forum who keep bringing up this false claim that they're 99% 2d pixel games. I don't get it. Your comparison is a bad one.
 
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The unfortunate reality is that the lower cost/live service/high engagement model is the money maker and that's what the the majority of industry players will move towards. MS has a head start here, but Sony also has 12 live-service franchises in the pipeline. There is a distinct lack of high production value, single player titles. The business reality is they are high cost, risky and have lower margins than live-service model.

This is a demand driven industry trend due to the enormous success of fortnight and the like. Publishers will always follow where the money is.
 

64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
I think people would have reacted similarly if the indies of that time we're Atari like games that made up over 80% of releases.
... But these AREN'T atari like games.

You guys do realize it's not 2010 anymore, right? Indie games have matured and grown exponentially since they first boomed into popularity in the mid-late 2000s. Like, you haven't forgotten about Kena, which is a TRIPLE A QUALITY indie game made by Ember Lab? Or Cuphead which is a lovingly animated 2d platformer with animation dating back to the 1930s rubberhose style of animation? or Bright Memory Infinite, another example of a triple A quality indie game, made by one person, IN HIS SPARE FUCKING TIME? Morbid Metal, yet ANOTHER triple A quality indie game?
The truth is that indie games are more easily able to compete with AA and AAA these days because of the tools provided. Unreal Engine 5 makes it easy as piss to make Triple A style graphics, and gameplay just as generic as every other AAA cinematic game on the planet. AAA has nothing to offer that indie can't already replicate when it comes to visuals and gameplay. The only reason indies DON'T make more games like these is because they have more of a unique concept for their game than just another pretty looking cinematic showcase
 

PerfectDark

Banned
There are ZERO decent games coming out in 2022. Xbox never has any games. I feel like I have been waiting like 8 years for Xbox to push out a handful of good games. Garbage free to play halo and a recycled Forza is all Xbox puts out. Doesn't matter what they announce as they get delayed pushed back not heard of for years and maybe one trickles out here and there.

I own every console and have since NES. I build a new gaming PC every other year. When I play games I just think how much fun and how great games were in the early 2000's. I am thankful I got to enjoy Star Wars Galaxies, Diablo 2, PSO Blue Burst, early WoW, CSS, Battlefield bad company 2, Sports games were good and I had variety. and all the cool Nintendo games before the Wii.

Last game that I loved was Plants Vs Zombies Garden Warfare 1 & 2. Only unique game I played in the last 10 years.
 
I guess this is true of western game devs, but so far i dont see Capcom or Sega or Square having much issues pumping out a steady dose of AAA games.
They still have alot of talent and even some passion onboard, that’s mostly why. They still create high budget games regularly, but they don’t have to create 100+ hour blockbusters with a $500,000,000 budget on a regular basis like many Western developers seem to always strive for.
 

Shmunter

Member
only good person here is the old gabe newell who's a bit lost when it comes to making games but knows how to make killer hardware
I don’t know. Not seriously investing into ip’s like Half Life, Left for Dead and Portal because GaaS makes more cash is not a jewel in that crown.
 

supernova8

Banned
Coming to terms with the state of the industry Microsoft/Xbox, no?

Sony and Nintendo still manage to drop megatons, it's only Microsoft that has been pumping out "looks average but I guess I'll play it since it's on Game Pass" games and little else. Last Xbox showcase I'll ever watch live. It just wasn't worth bothering.
 

ParaSeoul

Member
The state of play was better and that wasn't even the main Sony event. Besides Persona and Diablo 4,the friend group I watched with just cringed with most of what was shown.
 
I am not disappointment. I am angry that Sony and Microsoft knew they were releasing consoles in 2020, and yet 2-3 years before covid was ever a thing, they decided to make cross gen games instead. Had they made GT7, Forza Horizon, Horizon FW, GOW, and several other games next gen only and really pushed themselves to take advantage of the hardware, we would not be faced with this depressing reality. At worst, those games would get delayed due to covid, but we would be far more excited just seeing next gen stuff knowing we would be playing them in a 6-12 months instead of next 3 years or so.

I think you're oversimplifying things a bit.

The cost of game marketing and development was what made many of the launch games cross-gen, forcing that strategy. The COVID impact on the supply chain only protracted that cross-gen development period, because console makers were not able to make enough consoles to see a rapid shift to the new platforms from the legacy systems.

Regardless, the games launching this year and beyond have all spent a considerable portion of their development in COVID lockdown, and so the troubles surrounding many games and many studios are in large part derived from it.

Even technology transitions have been slow for studios that work with their own in-house tech. That's also been a function of the disruptions lockdowns and unplanned remote working has had on the many devs studios across the industry.
 

GenericUser

Member
I'm happy, plenty of stuff to look forward to (for me).

- Callisto Protocol
- Sonic Frontiers (lol)
- Modern Warfare 2
- Starfield
- Forza Motorsport 8
- Resident Evil 4

All in the next 12 month! I think, I even forgot something.
 
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I see where the OP is coming from. As far as variety goes, gaming is in a pretty good place. There are a plethora of games and even though a few genres are lacking, there is still literally something for everyone.

What I don’t like or dread is the greedy, corporate trajectory the gaming industry is rapidly heading in. Heavy GAAS/live service focus, online only, micro transactions, price hikes, DLC, bloated budgets and games, longer development cycles, season passes, mandatory open world, less exclusives, less innovation and originality, etc. Those things are infiltrating a lot of games also.

I know people are going to say indies, but I really miss the days when companies had more large budget games that actually tried some unique and original ideas. Even Sony are seemingly playing it safe now with their “we-only-want” blockbuster games. Exclusives used to give consoles an identity, but now even that’s seemingly becoming a rarity.
 

JimmyRustler

Gold Member
Yeah, I can to a similar conclusion. The industry is not going to be the way it was up until PS3/360 gen. Meaning, just a handful of releases that even interest me per year and aside from that the consoles will the collecting dust. Well, at least this way I won‘t have any backlog issues any more. However, it sure makes the industry as a whole boring and predictable. Like someone here already said, I‘m just happy I went through the 90s and early 00s with gaming. Games for geeks made by geeks. It was bound to change as the industry got bigger and went out of geeks hole. It was the same with the internet as a whole. It is what it is.
 
Been saying it for a couple years but the current AAA gaming industry setup is not sustainable. With us now being on the verge of a global recession, if we start to see cracks forming I'm going to double down on that thesis.

I've also started to question whether even the GaaS model is sustainable. More than any other genre GaaS is completely reliant on disposable income which, in real terms, started trending down last year.
 

DonF

Member
I don't know. For instance, I'm a Sony fan. PlayStation has like 20 studios. Even with a 4 year cycle of development, 20 studios could release a new game every what? 3 months?

I blame management.
 
NO. Dont lower your standards and expections. Do not let the industry fall into despair. Speak up, bitch and moan, and complain. It works. We have seen even the biggest video game companies reverse their decisions over the last couple of years due to online bitchfests. Do not settle for less.

Yes, part of the problem is the rising costs and longer development times, but like Phil said today, they make more money than ever before. Sony, Nintendo, EA, Ubisoft are all more profitable than ever before. The problem is that they did not invest it back into the studios knowing full well that the dev times were increasing. So many of these studios shipped games in 2017-2020 and went on to make cross gen games after that. Why?? Did they not know that their consoles were coming out in 2020? These are first party studios.

It's greed. It's slimy, cheap and scummy behavior that you see from used car salesmen who are trying to eek out every last piece of cash from your pockets instead of offering you a good product. They sold you a $500 console and they are not holding up their end of the bargin by shipping AAA games. This is on them.

Do not let this slide. The fanboys are doing that already. You are one of the few people who see the state of the industry in the despair its currently in. You have to speak up. Even if its futile.
Slimy, someone needs to wake you up if you think a small group of shrieking gamers will somehow make these big budget publishers change their mind over night. You can shout all you like, but its going to fall upon deaf ears.

The old school hardcore has been switched out with the mainstream demographic anyway. The hardcore aren't nearly as relevant nor the culture pilots to the industry anymore.

Btw, there has to be some kind of dichotomy in how you display its about greed when you yourself are showing an insatiable desire for "bigger, faster, stronger, harder" and expect it without whatever catch that may pertain. Really don't want to rain on your parade, but some of you are still stuck in a 90/00's mindset or something.
 
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I was overwhelmingly negative today. And for that I do appologize. After thinking on it, i realize that the days of non stop mega tons, or the year of dreams, are gone. Triple A games are simply to expensive, and take too much time to develop now.
Honestly, alot of the AAA games are made by amateurs and that's the problem. Senior devs are let go because they are too expensive, so you are left with junior staff and temp employees who just don't have that level of talent. It's what everyone won't say unfortunately, that all studios aren't created equally, and many times delays don't result in higher quality products.

The trailer format of these shows is just the wrong setup for new IP and indie titles, where they just can't standout consistently with 90 secs of exposure. SGF IMHO is more geared toward AAA establishes IP where there is already a level of familiarity about general gameplay, story, characters, etc. Ironically, so little of what is shown at SGF was AAA established IP.
 
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Kacho

Member
There’s still stuff worth playing but it’s shrinking fast. If we don’t see a crash in the next 10 years I’ll be surprised. Something has to give here…
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Slimy, someone needs to wake you up if you think a small group of shrieking gamers will somehow make these big budget publishers change their mind over night. You can shout all you like, but its going to fall upon deaf ears.

The old school hardcore has been switched out with the mainstream demographic anyway. The hardcore aren't nearly as relevant nor the culture pilots to the industry anymore.

Btw, there has to be some kind of dichotomy in how you display its about greed when you yourself are showing an insatiable desire for "bigger, faster, stronger, harder" and expect it without whatever catch that may pertain. Really don't want to rain on your parade, but some of you are still stuck in a 90/00's mindset or something.
A small group of shrieking gamers literally forced MS to fire their Xbox CEO. Forced them to abandon their TV push. Abandon their Kinect peripheral. Abandon their always online requirement. Abandon their plans to DOUBLE price of Xbox Live Gold. Sony literally just did a 180 on making everyone pay $70 for Horizon's upgrade from PS4. They did a 180 on their decision to close the Vita and PS3 stores. Even big bad EA listened to online outraged and literally removed every last piece of microtransaction and loot box from Battlefront 2.

Bitching works.

As for my desire for bigger and better? That's exactly why Microsoft and Sony release consoles every 7 years with bigger, faster, stronger specs. We buy them knowing that at launch this $500 console isnt going to be worth much, but it's an investment for the next 7 years. Based on a promise by MS and Sony for bigger and better games. Otherwise, no one would be buying these consoles and we would still be using 90/00s console specs.
 

mxbison

Member
It's more the state of AAA publishers than the whole industry.

Devolver Digital > Sony & Microsoft right now tbh. (not even gonna bother with EA and Ubisoft....)
 
Dont worry, Playstation showcase coming soon.
This⬆️
hplu8i6.gif

PlayStation will save AAA gaming again.

Also why was Sony and Nintendo lumped in to this thread, we know which lacking showcase this was about.
 

Wohc

Banned
Alternate take: The creation of the phrase 'AAA games' have ruined today's 20-40 year old gamers into thinking they need big blockbuster movie-style games to enjoy gaming anymore, when their younger selves would have just been amazed at the gigantic selection of all of these video games, regardless of studio size.
The opposite is the case. The older i get the more i like AAs and Indies. AAAs, especially from Microsoft and Sony, are mostly soulless, generic and play it safe. Starfield is one of the few big budget AAAs i'm really looking forward to. Can't remember anything in the last decade that had me more excited.

But other than that i really enjoy smaller games like Rogue Legacy 2 or Powerslave and i don't think it insults my graphics card to play weaker games.
 
You cant judge the whole industry on the Microsot show. They decided to only show games coming in the next 12 months, and we already knew they didnt have many big hitters coming in that timefame.
Besides some of you need to briden your horizons when it comes to Indies and AA games, thats where all the innovation is these days.
Except, innovation in indie games has really hit a wall too.
Oh is it another 2D sidescroller Metrosoulsvania? Or is it another cutesy "Zelda inspired" adventure game that has none of the clever aspects of the Zelda games? Or maybe a depressing feelings sim? I honestly cannot be bothered with these indies anymore. I think that scene hit its stride in 2018, along with the rest of the industry, and it has been super stale since then.
 
I’m a heck of a lot older than that now. But yeah…. You can almost feel that some games are going for the 17-24 crowd and others are going for the older crowd….
Yep the new saints row is a prime example, before it seemed targeted at anyone who liked gta style games with gang stereotyped adult characters.

They got rid of adult characters and now have zoomer children as the protagonists, that look like high schoolers and nothing like the franchise at all. So they aren't marketing to a 40 something that used to play said games. They loose a customer, but they are betting on woke zoomers to make up the difference, yet those people are all into f2p crap like fortnite. Don't think things like that will turn out how devs want.
 
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ZehDon

Gold Member
I don’t know. Not seriously investing into ip’s like Half Life, Left for Dead and Portal because GaaS makes more cash is not a jewel in that crown.
Hey now, Valve did release Half-Life: Alyx. Sure, it'll go back into hibernation for *checks notes* 15 years, but credit where it's due.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
I was overwhelmingly negative today. And for that I do appologize. After thinking on it, i realize that the days of non stop mega tons, or the year of dreams, are gone. Triple A games are simply to expensive, and take too much time to develop now.

Its interesting to go back and watch sonys e3 2015-2017 press conferences. Each show has a mix of their own first party triple a games, and a helping of indies to compliment those games. However, thanks to the rising costs, and scope of big game production, a game announced at the start of a conosles life, may not release until close to the end of it.

I would not be surprised if for example, by the time perfect dark comes out, we are already hearing rumblings of a new xbox, and i fully expect gta 6 to be a cross generational game between the ps5 And ps6.

Its not just sony and microsoft who are going through this, ea has nothing but sports titles and need for speed releasing this year, ubisoft isnt even doing their typical show case, presumably because not much is ready for this year from them outside of updates to their existing titles. Nintendo announced metroid prime 4 and bayo 3 in 2017, and they still are not out.

Indies, and aa live service titles have become crutches for these companies to lean on during years where most of their own content isnt ready to be shown.

I realized that i need to change my expectations for game releases and show cases. I need to adapt, just as this industry has had to.
Not sure why you're including Sony in all this. They have been doing more and more AAA successfully. In fact, people were complaining that Sony is only interested in doing blockbuster games just a few months ago.

Is there literally any other company that does AAA at a bigger level than PlayStation right now? They have also encouraged their smaller studios to grow into making high-budget AAA games, e.g., HouseMarque with Returnal, FireSprite with multiple AAA games, Pixelopus with the upcoming UE5 game with Sony Pictures, Arrowhead with their next AAA game, etc.
 
Honestly, alot of the AAA games are made by amateurs and that's the problem. Senior devs are let go because they are too expensive, so you are left with junior staff and temp employees who just don't have that level of talent. It's what everyone won't say unfortunately, that all studios aren't created equally, and many times delays don't result in higher quality products.

The trailer format of these shows is just the wrong setup for new IP and indie titles, where they just can't standout consistently with 90 secs of exposure. SGF IMHO is more geared toward AAA establishes IP where there is already a level of familiarity about general gameplay, story, characters, etc. Ironically, so little of what is shown at SGF was AAA established IP.
One of the biggest unspoken tragedies surrounding this industry is that much of the talented, inspiring AAA workforce and creators have long since "left the building" or ran for the hills.

Game development went from a band of nerds having fun and shooting the shit to a stone cold well oiled business machine we see today. The John Carmacks or Bruce Straleys super tech geeks who liked to tinker and perfect/optimize shit being regulars at AAA studios are a thing of yesteryear. That kind of developer is largely expendable. Many such devs have gone to greener pastures.

You're now stuck with fresh cannon fodder landing straight out of some college without remotely the same technical knowledge as those guys.
 
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KXVXII9X

Member
I specifically didn't list the really cutting edge games like Sonic Adventure, Shenmue, Phantasy Star Online, Dead or Alive 2, Soul Calibur 2, etc. The games I've listed above have very simple yet addictive gameplay mechanics with decent enough graphics. Those games are the ones I'm saying wouldn't be celebrated here today. They would have been met with constant criticisms and complaints, buried into obscurity for a LTTP years down the line. For example, a game trailer like Neon White would have been celebrated here back then.



However now, for most it's just another indie annoyance so that they can get back to being fed the main AAA course. I don't know how the industry managed to condition people this way, but it's definitely fascinating and horrifying to witness.


Tons of indie games this gen keep being released with 3d graphics and for some reason there are people on this forum who keep bringing up this false claim that they're 99% 2d pixel games. I don't get it. Your comparison is a bad one.

I never said they were all pixel games. Even a lot of the 3D ones feel like two or three generations behind. My favorite game this year is an indie (Sifu), and looking forward to, Skate Story Stray Season, Little Devil Inside and more indie titles, but I think there is a reason why these other indies aren't celebrated.

There has been fewer and fewer AAA releases and even fewer current gen only titles. Naturally people will want games that take advantage of their new console. That is the whole point of upgrading. Not just in graphics, but mechanically as well. If it was solely about graphics I wouldn't be crazy about VR on my Quest 2. It feels new and novel. Even then, there is a starvation for some defining AAA titles like Half-Life Alyx. Same with Consoles.

The reason people did not raise a fuss with those experimental games is probably due to there being bigger AAA games at the time with 3D rendered games that was a HUGE jump in the industry. I mean you had era defining games like Zelda OoT and FF7. Jetset Radio still holds up today and still has a better presentation than quite a few 3D rendered indies. It wasn't seen as a success in it's day though. Only until after it received a following.
 

KXVXII9X

Member
Except, innovation in indie games has really hit a wall too.
Oh is it another 2D sidescroller Metrosoulsvania? Or is it another cutesy "Zelda inspired" adventure game that has none of the clever aspects of the Zelda games? Or maybe a depressing feelings sim? I honestly cannot be bothered with these indies anymore. I think that scene hit its stride in 2018, along with the rest of the industry, and it has been super stale since then.
Thank you! Someone realistic about the state of indies. People hold them up like they are all unique and creative. For every outstanding gem, there are dozens that are uninspired shovelware and/or jumping on the newest fad.

I still like a lot of indie titles and looking forward to many, but sometimes I think I like the idea of them more than the reality.
 

GhostOfTsu

Banned
Not sure why you're including Sony in all this. They have been doing more and more AAA successfully. In fact, people were complaining that Sony is only interested in doing blockbuster games just a few months ago.

Is there literally any other company that does AAA at a bigger level than PlayStation right now? They have also encouraged their smaller studios to grow into making high-budget AAA games, e.g., HouseMarque with Returnal, FireSprite with multiple AAA games, Pixelopus with the upcoming UE5 game with Sony Pictures, Arrowhead with their next AAA game, etc.
I was overwhelmingly negative today.
Yep. Seems like OP was afraid of the banhammer so he added Sony to protect himself even if it didn't fit with any of his complaints.

HFW cross-gen looks better than any AAA coming out in the next year or two. Ratchet, Returnal and Demons Souls. TLOU1 and Ragnarok coming out soon.

Who else is making games at that level?
 

Three

Member
The problem is that publishers only want to make three types of games: massive AAA games that take 4+ years to make, free-to-play games full of microtransactions, or forgettable remasters of old games. They need to start creating studios to make smaller games. Blizzard could have created a small studio to make a 2D Metroidvania-style game with the Diablo IP to hold us over until Diablo IV. A game like that could have been made in under 3 years and would have been far more well-received than Diablo Immortal. There was a time when publishers did this, Capcom for example made smaller games like Mega man 9/10, Bionic Commando Rearmed, Strider, etc. but now it's AAA, free to play or nothing.
Publsihers make whatever the people are willing to spend money on. The problem is that consumers are buying less games. publishers concentrate on GaaS subs/f2p and microtransactions because it's what people are spending the most money on. The people buying games are those who always did in the past hence the remakes. AAA has actually declined massively and it's sad.
 
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Rudius

Member
Besides the usual greed factor, maybe this decline in quality and quantity of quality games has to do with the "diversity" crap. When you stop hiring and promoting people purely for their competence there has to be some consequences to the products you make.
 
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