SSfox
Member
This. Also I would expect it's way easier in dev and more gain time now for SSM to implement no camera cut in Ragnarok with SSD compare to what they used to with ps4 hdd.
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This. Also I would expect it's way easier in dev and more gain time now for SSM to implement no camera cut in Ragnarok with SSD compare to what they used to with ps4 hdd.
Well, we actually largely agree. With the console running in the same room his level meter wasn't registering anything - that's his experience in his setup. You said that you could do the same thing yourself, just as I replicated that result with both Adobe Audition and Audacity. It's really not an unreasonable thing to claim.
I'm also not disputing that the console makes sound or suggesting that it couldn't be recorded with the correct equipment, it's just a seperate issue from the tweet that triggered some people (well, one person
) to unfairly brand him a 'liar'.Parity with PC? Because the chip will be used for the cloud? MS and Sony have completely different goals next gen, therefore they have completely different implementations.
geordiemp
Member
Its debateable whether Microsoft were involved in gated frequencies or not, at the end of the day the application is clear anyway.
The fast frequencies is more than just adding controls to the CUs, the 10 CU per shader array and layout cache, shaders and other parts will be optimised to lower the distance travelled on silicon for signals to achieve these high frequencies. Its alluded to in the RDNA1 white paper, and it was mentioned in the RDNA2 CU slide but using general wording.
I wish we had a ps5 die shot, but if you look at 6800 die its clear how everything is arranged for this purpose (close and fast). XSX is the opposite of this arrangement from hotchips.
So for XSX, you would also have to reduce the CU 10 to per shader array and re-arrange everything and would need 5 shader arrays and a 60 CU die with front and back end scaled to match 5 arrays (which does not work obviously, and 3 shader engines would be 6 arrays so even bigger and still not fit the bill).
And as I said with 4 instances or games running, 5 or 6 shader arrays does not fit the bill.
So sony likley wanted 36 CU and go fast, Microsoft wanted a sever class CPU and 4 shader arrarys with no freqjency gating and TF. Hence 2 totally different directions, chalk and cheese.
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geordiemp
Member
SSfox
Member
I'm glad I don't care about this. Cause I would be very pissed if it was a game I was looking forward to.
thelastword
Banned
I think some of you may have a heart attack if you see the fixed XBOX clocks don't exactly stay fixed...........
MrFunSocks
Banned
But people are saying it only offers benefits, like reduced heat and power draw, which would benefit the cloud server setup immensely. Again, if there is no drawback why wouldn’t they use it?
saintjules
Member
I was hearing about people getting fired for taking pics. Are we just assuming they're getting terminated? Sucks if true.
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Bittermich
Banned
Don’t need it at all. The SSD they are using is already fast enough and DirectStorage is coming to PC too so it will be very easy for devs to optimize for Xbox and PC.
The sound engine on Xox Series is also very good just look at Project Acoustics:
Xbox Series X 'Project Acoustics' audio ray tracing revealed
We know a lot more about the Xbox Series X.
www.windowscentral.com
It’s a gaming console. Why would you need the latest Wifi or USB-C? It doesn’t provide a meaningful advantage.
MS has a huge ecosystem, they don’t care if you play their games only on XSX or only on PC. All games will be on XSX and PC. Consoles are now like PCs more than ever, it’s very easy for Devs to create games for PC and XSX.
I like the Xbox Controller more due to ultra low latency and better analogue stick positions.
And all those features the DS has, what if devs forget about those features in a year or two, like they did with the Switch HD Rumble or the DS4 Touchpad? Not many devs use those features, except at launch.
Also, due to corona not many people have that much money to pay $70 for another controller to play with their friends together.
XSX is already more powerful. Not needed.
sircaw
Banned
How many coffees you had this morning young fishy
the guy is trolling away, i know it, you know it, everyone knows it.
MrFunSocks
Banned
Oh so AMDs smartshift isn’t actually anything new then? The Xbox has the same power shift as the ps5 then?
xacto
Member
Don’t need it at all. The SSD they are using is already fast enough and DirectStorage is coming to PC too so it will be very easy for devs to optimize for Xbox and PC.
The sound engine on Xox Series is also very good just look at Project Acoustics:
Xbox Series X 'Project Acoustics' audio ray tracing revealed
We know a lot more about the Xbox Series X.
It’s a gaming console. Why would you need the latest Wifi or USB-C? It doesn’t provide a meaningful advantage.
MS has a huge ecosystem, they don’t care if you play their games only on XSX or only on PC. All games will be on XSX and PC. Consoles are now like PCs more than ever, it’s very easy for Devs to create games for PC and XSX.
I like the Xbox Controller more due to ultra low latency and better analogue stick positions.
And all those features the DS has, what if devs forget about those features in a year or two, like they did with the Switch HD Rumble or the DS4 Touchpad? Not many devs use those features, except at launch.
Also, due to corona not many people have that much money to pay $70 for another controller to play with their friends together.
XSX is already more powerful. Not needed.
Pain is real.
itsnotme
Member
Because the wanted to play it safe, they didn't find a reason to change it since nearly every console in history has followed this convection so they did the same or maybe they couldn't implement it as good as they wanted to so they didn't bother.
They both have draw backs and upsides there's for and against each solutions each company did what they thought was best, if that wasn't the case you can just ask why didn't Sony do the same as Microsoft and nearly all consoles prior if fixed frequency method was so superior?
Rea
Member
No, ps5 doesn't take much more trouble than Series x, the clock adjustment happens automatically, also dev can use fixed frequency profile while developing games, ps5 will adjust clocks automatically for consumers.
sircaw
Banned
Don’t need it at all. The SSD they are using is already fast enough and DirectStorage is coming to PC too so it will be very easy for devs to optimize for Xbox and PC.
The sound engine on Xox Series is also very good just look at Project Acoustics:
Xbox Series X 'Project Acoustics' audio ray tracing revealed
We know a lot more about the Xbox Series X.
It’s a gaming console. Why would you need the latest Wifi or USB-C? It doesn’t provide a meaningful advantage.
MS has a huge ecosystem, they don’t care if you play their games only on XSX or only on PC. All games will be on XSX and PC. Consoles are now like PCs more than ever, it’s very easy for Devs to create games for PC and XSX.
I like the Xbox Controller more due to ultra low latency and better analogue stick positions.
And all those features the DS has, what if devs forget about those features in a year or two, like they did with the Switch HD Rumble or the DS4 Touchpad? Not many devs use those features, except at launch.
Also, due to corona not many people have that much money to pay $70 for another controller to play with their friends together.
XSX is already more powerful. Not needed.
Your honesty going to sit there and tell me your happy with a 12 tflop machine when a 10.3 tflop one is trading blows with it in parity.
Microsoft unfortunately went with the standard option, sony are the ones that are innovating. look at all those examples i gave, there is no question there. Why would you not want the latest tech in your system, what happens in three years time when something comes around that needs it, silly, very silly.
Without question Sony's machine is better engineered, a 10.3 tflop machine, trading blows with a 12 tflop one, while having all those extra goodies i mentioned.
Microsoft have a huge ecosystem lol, with no launch titles haha, done like a kipper.
But if you want to believe Microsoft's spin, luckily the vast majority of people are heading towards sony's system, yer it must be them that's wrong, not you. Have a great day.
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Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
It could be that because Nvidia doesn't offer something similar (enough) so they can't implement it generically in DirectX 12 and don't want the headache of maintaining two power management paradigms. This is the downside of having an API that has to account for multiple types of target hardware. The benefits are that as it is more abstracted they can do things at the API level that will apply to all (hence easier BC enhancements)
Also I don't think Sony took Smartshift off the shelf, I believe the fundamental technology used in AMD based laptop GPUs was taken and customised specifically for console to allow for a fixed power budget. This kind of thing is the benefit of having a single target hardware profile.
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Shmunter
Member
Jesus, what a brutal takedown
sircaw
Banned
The crazy thing is i am not lying either.
xacto
Member
Appreciate the concern MC, wouldn't want anyone to get an enforced holiday for throwing around insults like 'retard' now, would we?
sircaw
Banned
You're a souped up version of a goldfish, and we love you
your just trying to fatten me up for the kill, i see the look in your eye.
Varnish La PS
Member
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Gudji
Member
No, that's on PS5 only. It's not that big of a deal but it helps with performance.
lepermessiah
Member
How many coffees you had this morning young fishy
sircaw
needs at least 5 machiatos to get the taste of my ass out his mouth. 
sircaw
Banned
i am not a religious fella by nature, but i believe the universe might make an exception in your case.
Welcomes you to the burning hells.
Ps Did you really need to sink that low so early in the day, God damn man.
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geordiemp
Member
Smartshift is just marketing and shifting power around on die, which is what Big Navi does (and Ps5)
Again, why would mcirosoft want to push power from CPU (when its doing little work at end of a frame) to GPU if there are 4 games running.
When you design for 4 games at once, the design requirements are totally different.
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azertydu91
Hard to Kill
Damn did magikarp just evolved?Because that was brutal.
buenoblue
Member
I mean not long to see how all this plays out. Ps5 gonna have some serious good looking first party stuff anyway. I just don't buy the spin that lowering clocks but not detailing the amount is somehow revolutionary and in our best interest. If ps5 outstrips the performance of series x in 3rd party releases then I'll be amazed and will eat my crow, and i hope those saying opposite will do same. I just can't see it from the numbers
Mr Moose
Member
geordiemp
Member
Remember Ps5 is also a 17 % or so smaller die, so if the performance is within 17 % or closer to parity, then the design choices were correct.
If the performance of XSX > 17 % differential, then the design choices were not so great IMO. lets see.
TSMC 7nm is very expensive and the major cost component.
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PaintTinJr
Member
Great points about the software convenience the current GPU setup gives them for running 4 virtual machines -with less software complexity.
That does remind me that
Bo_Hazem
and me were discussing(many months ago in this thread) the AMD Eypc roadmap, Infinity fabric, the incoming Eypc solutions, likelihood of chip stacking that had helped AMD win a first US government server/cloud contract that will be happening next year, and what that might tell us about the PS5 APU.If the US government solution is almost certainly using gated frequencies with RDNA2-3-ish technology for a similar purpose to Microsoft's servers, and Sony will again most likely try using Playstations for their Sony Pictures CGI cloud with PS5 - that has gated frequencies or even more advanced. Other than the difficulty of virtual machine complexity, which for Microsoft being a business software company shouldn't put them off, it is hard to see (IMHO) why they wouldn't have copied the US government choice in tech, had they had it available.
You are completely right, though, a die-shot of the PS5 apu will certainly tell us far more.
mitchman
Gold Member
Freudian slip, I'm sure
xacto
Member
Macchiatos are for the weaklings....
geordiemp
Member
Great points about the software convenience the current GPU setup gives them for running 4 virtual machines -with less software complexity.
That does remind me that
If the US government solution is almost certainly using gated frequencies with RDNA2-3-ish technology for a similar purpose to Microsoft's servers, and Sony will again most likely try using Playstations for their Sony Pictures CGI cloud with PS5 - that has gated frequencies or even more advanced. Other than the difficulty of virtual machine complexity, which for Microsoft being a business software company shouldn't put them off, it is hard to see (IMHO) why they wouldn't have copied the US government choice in tech, had they had it available.
You are completely right, though, a die-shot of the PS5 apu will certainly tell us far more.
Each L1 private to each game makes sense to me, but I dont design game servers so I am just speculating, but I cant see how could time slice game application L1 caches like that anyway for cache misses etc.
I am sure there will be other differences, the display outputs and other stuff will need 4 x , its more complex than we are talking here. I am sure ps5 would be awful at running 4 x ps4 games, its not desigjned to do that.
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sircaw
Banned
i will take them over a face full of arse fs
DarkParadise
Member
So, in conclusion you prefer to drive this:Don’t need it at all. The SSD they are using is already fast enough and DirectStorage is coming to PC too so it will be very easy for devs to optimize for Xbox and PC.
The sound engine on Xox Series is also very good just look at Project Acoustics:
Xbox Series X 'Project Acoustics' audio ray tracing revealed
We know a lot more about the Xbox Series X.
It’s a gaming console. Why would you need the latest Wifi or USB-C? It doesn’t provide a meaningful advantage.
MS has a huge ecosystem, they don’t care if you play their games only on XSX or only on PC. All games will be on XSX and PC. Consoles are now like PCs more than ever, it’s very easy for Devs to create games for PC and XSX.
I like the Xbox Controller more due to ultra low latency and better analogue stick positions.
And all those features the DS has, what if devs forget about those features in a year or two, like they did with the Switch HD Rumble or the DS4 Touchpad? Not many devs use those features, except at launch.
Also, due to corona not many people have that much money to pay $70 for another controller to play with their friends together.
XSX is already more powerful. Not needed.
Instead of this:
Because who needs all the new features and comfort, when the first car also gets you from point A to B and its basically the same anyway, right?
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Cerny even mention such a scenario in the DF interview:
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …
www.eurogamer.net
Ppl with so many questions, "concerns".....just read the interviews, watch the video of said interview.....and please actually watch The Road to PS5.
So, in conclusion you prefer to drive this:
Instead of this:
Because who needs all the new features and comfort, when the first car also gets you from point A to B and its basically the same anyway, right?
Law of diminishing returns though, also in your analogy the previous gen would probably be walking.
DarkParadise
Member
Ever heard of exaggeration?
Insane Metal
Member
Alright Phil! Got it!Don’t need it at all. The SSD they are using is already fast enough and DirectStorage is coming to PC too so it will be very easy for devs to optimize for Xbox and PC.
The sound engine on Xox Series is also very good just look at Project Acoustics:
Xbox Series X 'Project Acoustics' audio ray tracing revealed
We know a lot more about the Xbox Series X.
It’s a gaming console. Why would you need the latest Wifi or USB-C? It doesn’t provide a meaningful advantage.
MS has a huge ecosystem, they don’t care if you play their games only on XSX or only on PC. All games will be on XSX and PC. Consoles are now like PCs more than ever, it’s very easy for Devs to create games for PC and XSX.
I like the Xbox Controller more due to ultra low latency and better analogue stick positions.
And all those features the DS has, what if devs forget about those features in a year or two, like they did with the Switch HD Rumble or the DS4 Touchpad? Not many devs use those features, except at launch.
Also, due to corona not many people have that much money to pay $70 for another controller to play with their friends together.
XSX is already more powerful. Not needed.
Riky
$MSFT
It depends on priorities when allocating costs, Microsoft spent the money on things that actually matter to games, more compute units, faster CPU and higher memory bandwidth with a bigger SSD.
But just applying a similar difference between your comparison. What was the purpose of your exaggeration? To say that having a faster ssd is useful, think everyone wants a faster ssd but that's not really that interesting unless it unlocks a step change in game performance/development that the xbox can't achieve. The real change is more likely to be from moving from 7200rpm drives to a nvme ssd.
Dibils2k
Member
tbf i dont think that red car is getting anyone from point A to BSo, in conclusion you prefer to drive this:
Instead of this:
Because who needs all the new features and comfort, when the first car also gets you from point A to B and its basically the same anyway, right?
geordiemp
Member
Microsoft designed a server class CPU to optimise running 4 games at once at 1080p. They said so at Hotchips.
The GPU was also designed with this purpose (4 shader arrays), and indedd the memory bandwidth to facilitate 20 or 40 GB GDDR6 for servers.
It is clever how MS did a dual purpose APU for sure, but MS requirements were totally different to PC gaming and ps5 parts.
Gudji
Member
And sony didn't? What a load of bullshit. lmao
Dodkrake
Banned
Except games, correct? And a faster GPU, correct? And a decent controller, correct?
thelastword
Banned
SmartShift shifts power to the CPU or GPU or both on demand. That is done through Infinity Fabric, Memory Access and Machine Learning.......If the XBOX can do that, please specify it in the MS Docs and PDF.....
I think most of us will be waiting for your breakdown on the matter, since you are so sure of yourself, I'm thinking such information should be at your fingertips.....Can't wait for your breakdown on the matter since you are so genuinely passionate on the subject...
MastaKiiLA
Member
How on earth has the variable clocks corpse risen from the grave again? Can we kill this fucking zombie with fire once and for all?
Mr. PlayStation
Member
Yes, this. The first game as it was being developed so was the tech behind it. Now the core foundation is set and i am sure they had already mapped the flow of the story across at least two more iterations. The sequel releasing in 2021 isn't improbable at all. Could be a 2021 Q2-Q3 release!
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