Support NeoGAF

[FromDuskTillGameOver]

oh this lord of the rings book has too many old and complicated words. also its way too long. please give me a 200 page version with a 300 words vokabulary.

 

[MH3M3D]

Another misconception is that these games are 1 hit kill or instant death type genres. They are absolutely not. Most enemies can gank you in like 2-3 hits but so can you back at them. Anything that 1 shots you is probably going to be a trap that be avoided or anticipated on your next run.

Plus by the end of the game, you should have your health upgraded enough to where you can take a full 5-6 hits from even the toughest enemies and dodge/roll almost infinitely.

I beat most Fromsoft games multiple times. For me they're not that hard if you're patient. I'm just saying have an easy mode where you can take a couple of more hits before you die. Nothing game-breaking.

 

[FukuDaruma]

Okay, so let’s agree that the games should be designed the way the developers intended, and people who dont like that can go and play something else. If the game has an easy mode, then we shouldn’t complain, and if it doesn’t, you shouldn’t.

That excuse already sailed the moment the thread was about "I hope they do" and your answer "I don't want them to".

Fortunately, "the people who don't like" something usually can change it and customize it to their liking, even if the original devs don't like it (just check what 2014's Assetto Corsa has become on PC through modding). That's the greatest thing about PC gaming, and not bruteforcing quality spending thousands on hardware. I hope Bloodborne ends up on PC so modders can customize the hell out of it.

 

[Danjin44]

I'm just saying have an easy mode where you can take a couple of more hits before you die. Nothing game-breaking.

for people who have no "patient" wont bother finishing Souls games even with easy mode because they will find combat too slow....because they lack "patients". At some point some people have to face the fact that some games is just not for them, same way Fighting games is not for me, I lack the talent to get good at those games but thats life.

 

[FukuDaruma]

oh this lord of the rings book has too many old and complicated words. also its way too long. please give me a 200 page version with a 300 words vokabulary.

Can you beat Bloodborne blindfolded and using a dance mat controller with your ass? congratulations! good for you, "accomplished winner"! guess what, normal people that want difficulty options doesn't care how you enjoy your game. This isn't a competition, and their enjoyment of the game doesn't depend on yours.

 

[yurqqa]

I have less and less time to play and I started to understand the appeal of short and easy games more and more.

But I still think that easy mode in Demon's Souls is like bloodless Mortal Kombat (hi, Nintendo !) or Carmageddon without pedestrians.

It's like a Pizza without cheese and ketchup or like an alcohol-free vodka.

 

[Poplin]

if sony wants it to sell more than 1-2 million units, it sure as hell needs to have an easy mode / accessibility settings. However, maybe they're happy with a low selling game that appeals to a dedicated core.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Part of its identity is the difficulty and the fact that you have to re-approach areas over and over again to learn to better pathing, tricks, secrets, and how to get the job done more efficiently

 

[Valonquar]

People that want easy mode: Go play Assasin's Creed.

 

[tassletine]

If they have to do it they should just include an instruction manual. Something that collectors would like, and something that would give an explanation of how the systems work, as this is the biggest hurdle with difficulty in this title.

 

[Danjin44]

People that want easy mode: Go play Assasin's Creed.

Honestly this^^...most recent Assassins Creed starting to have combat thats more "Souls like" and it will have difficulty option.

 

[MH3M3D]

for people who have no "patient" wont bother finishing Souls games even with easy mode because they will find combat too slow....because they lack "patients". At some point some people have to face the fact that some games is just not for them, same way Fighting games is not for me, I lack the talent to get good at those games but thats life.

Why care if they finish the game? As long as they buy it and have a good time. There are enough people that are drawn to the world and the gameplay, but simply get stuck too many times.

 

[Danjin44]

Why care if they finish the game? As long as they buy it and have a good time. There are enough people that are drawn to the world and the gameplay, but simply get stuck too many times.

They are not going to have good time because will find combat too "slow" for them, same reason why turn based combat is less popular these days. And this game is not story heavy or "cinematic" enough to just enjoy the game just for the story.

FROM are not just gonna make half-ass easy mode, they will need change combat in order for more casual fans to have fun but that would result of change entire nature of the game which FROM doesn't want to do. Demon's Souls in 2009 became special because they weren't following "industry standard", FROM had a goal with this game thats what try to achieve.

Unique games like this is always at risk of not appealing to everybody but thats how we get great games.

 

[TheGrat1]

Then Little Timmy is going to be bloody disappointed when he plays his ‘easy’ Souls game and finds that the story hardly makes sense on the surface, is mostly hidden in item descriptions, remains vague throughout, and never answers a lot of questions, leaving everything very ambiguous.

The funny part is that Little Timmy is not the one begging for easy options on Souls games, just grown men on internet forums. Sounds to me like this plea for an easy option is not the "Think of the Children!" pitch it frames itself as, and instead a cry of gamers who are just tired of getting their asses kicked by a game that honestly is not even that hard.

 

[Kodiak]

I'm in the camp of people that desperately wants to love FROM games, but just sucks ass at them. For the life of me I couldn't get the timing down in Sekiro.

 

[Danjin44]

 

[Veysetia]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions just like you OP even if your opinion sucks and is wrong. No. Why don't you just work harder at the game?

 

[SilverCelestial]

I'm open to the idea of including an easy mode, provided it requires the player to go into the options and tick the "I'm a mincey little fairy" checkbox.

The mincey little fairies would then all be placed on a separate server, where all animations are replaced with ballet moves and everyone has a pink tutu armour set. Players can then pirouette gracefully through fields of flowers whilst playing kiss chase and tickling each other with feather dusters.

 

[Saruhashi]

Far from obsessed with anything souls related, unlike others.
That is not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that passionate soulsborne fans ("soulflakes" was just a joke) doesn't want an easier experience for others so they can brag about belonging to an exclusive elite. It's the square and obtuse mentality of "You should only be allowed to play this only in THIS(MY) way, and only for THIS(MY) reasons. If so, welcome to the club. If not, fuck you, I don't care about your reasons or what you want from the game."

OK. So let's say everything you've said there is true.

Is there any reason not to make games specifically for those people?

Can a developer not say" yes we want to provide this exact experience" without an army of online avatars and games journalists badgering them on and on and on to NOT make a game for those people.

We are talking about a handful of games out of the hundreds produced each generation. They can't even have that?

When Elden Ring comes out you're probably looking at another 2 years before the next one so very likely for at least the entire first 3 years of PS5 you'd have TWO games like this.

Just two. Yet people will bitch and moan relentlessly that those two games are not doing what all games are "supposed" to be doing.

Like I said, if it's only going to be a small number of games each gen that are like this then why not let it slide?

The devs would quickly learn if their game isn't popular and wouldn't need fake online outrage to convince them they are doing it wrong.

Seems easier to just let those people have their ONE launch game and just ignore it.

Otherwise it just seems like a real petty attempt to piss on their parade.

 

[LarknThe4th]

Needs to have the 6th Archstone more like....

 

[FunkMiller]

That excuse already sailed the moment the thread was about "I hope they do" and your answer "I don't want them to".

Fortunately, "the people who don't like" something usually can change it and customize it to their liking, even if the original devs don't like it (just check what 2014's Assetto Corsa has become on PC through modding). That's the greatest thing about PC gaming, and not bruteforcing quality spending thousands on hardware. I hope Bloodborne ends up on PC so modders can customize the hell out of it.

You alright there, Captain Goalpost Change?

You directly state that a game should be the way the developer wants it, but once you realise that means your argument about wanting an easy mode doesn’t bear up anymore, you change tack.

Edit: here are your exact words, in bold and italic, because they ate just so extra special:

“And as stated, this is not even about the devs intentions, because if they do put several difficulty options in the end, then it was their intention.”

So what is it? Should we go along with a devs intention? Or continue to piss and moan when that intention doesn’t go along with what we want?

Fuck me, you’re all so totally transparent

 

[KiNeMz]

The funny part is that Little Timmy is not the one begging for easy options on Souls games, just grown men on internet forums. Sounds to me like this plea for an easy option is not the "Think of the Children!" pitch it frames itself as, and instead a cry of gamers who are just tired of getting their asses kicked by a game that honestly is not even that hard.

If they were thinking of the children they would be teaching the children values by leading by example. Teaching them resilience, determination, perseverance, endurance. Those kind of qualities that make great people.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

I think they can keep the difficulty the same but have a few things in to not make you have to repeat easy sections or start an entirely new character

-checkpoints after long tedious sections so I can get straight back to the hard part I died on and not waste time on those slogs that I don't even get hit on

-no permanent currency loss. Just a way to artificially extend game length

-dont make all stats more expensive just because I upgraded one category. This one is big as you have to restart the game if you allocate a few stats the wrong way at the start because of the aforementioned currency loss. You simply HAVE to look up guides otherwise you're stuck with an imbalanced character that you discover sucks all too late. Lemme reset the character or something and maybe only give half the currency I spent back. Or just make every stat a separate cost and have the cost of increasing that stat increase. If I overload one early I can't get more souls because my character isn't good and the mountain gets huge pretty quick to get one stat increase.

 

[Danjin44]

I think they can keep the difficulty the same but have a few things in to not make you have to repeat easy sections or start an entirely new character

-checkpoints after long tedious sections so I can get straight back to the hard part I died on and not waste time on those slogs that I don't even get hit on

-no permanent currency loss. Just a way to artificially extend game length

-dont make all stats more expensive just because I upgraded one category. This one is big as you have to restart the game if you allocate a few stats the wrong way at the start because of the aforementioned currency loss. You simply HAVE to look up guides otherwise you're stuck with an imbalanced character that you discover sucks all too late. Lemme reset the character or something and maybe only give half the currency I spent back. Or just make every stat a separate cost and have the cost of increasing that stat increase. If I overload one early I can't get more souls because my character isn't good and the mountain gets huge pretty quick to get one stat increase.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Why?

 

[FukuDaruma]

OK. So let's say everything you've said there is true.

Is there any reason not to make games specifically for those people?

You mean the people that doesn't want an easier experience for others when theirs are exactly the same?

Can a developer not say" yes we want to provide this exact experience" without an army of online avatars and games journalists badgering them on and on and on to NOT make a game for those people.

Can a developer not say "yes we want more people to be able to enjoy the game with options of difficulty adapted to their abilities" without an army of entitled exclusive elitists badgering them on and on and on to NOT make those options into the game for those people?

We are talking about a handful of games out of the hundreds produced each generation. They can't even have that?

You mean a game with the requisite of others not being able to play it so you can feel superior? because otherwise the game and the whole experience is exactly the same for you, because you will never use any easier difficulty mode than the hardest one.

Just two. Yet people will bitch and moan relentlessly that those two games are not doing what all games are "supposed" to be doing.

People just want to enjoy the games with different options, according to their skills, time, patience, what they appreciate from the games apart from the difficulty of the combat mechanics, ... An elitist club are bitching and moaning relentlessly that other's different enjoyment of the games are ruining their feeling of superiority and exclusiveness.

Like I said, if it's only going to be a small number of games each gen that are like this then why not let it slide?

Others experience with the games don't have any influence in yours, why not let it slide?

The devs would quickly learn if their game isn't popular and wouldn't need fake online outrage to convince them they are doing it wrong.

There's plenty more outrage in the people that does NOT want for others to be able to enjoy those games easier.
It would be like, let's say, some racing sim fans saying "NO! there shouldn't be any choice of assists and difficulty settings for those cars and tracks! they aren't hard for me! why should there be options for other people?"

Seems easier to just let those people have their ONE launch game and just ignore it.

Otherwise it just seems like a real petty attempt to piss on their parade.

Seems easier to just le those people have their CHOICE on how they prefer to play and just ignore it.

Your "parade" only materializes in preventing others from enjoying the game their way, when it doesn't affect yours at all. So in fact it's you the petty one pissing on others.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

If they were thinking of the children they would be teaching the children values by leading by example. Teaching them resilience, determination, perseverance, endurance. Those kind of qualities that make great people.

Taking abuse and liking it is not a good quality. It's like they took all the worst lessons of the 8bit era like restarting the whole game or large sections to artificially make it seem longer and applied them to a modern game

 

[Danjin44]

Why?

Those features you mentioned will just suck all the fun out of the game, If I want something like that then I would just play recent Assassins Creed game that trying be "Souls like".

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Those features you mentioned will just suck all the fun out of the game, If I want something like that then I would just play recent Assassins Creed game that trying be "Souls like".

Assassin's creed is an entirely different game and taking out checkpoints making it extremely difficult to correct a bad character choice early wouldn't make it anywhere near demons souls. Why don't souls fans like anything in the game other than the difficulty? Hell I didn't even change the difficulty with mine I'm literally not changing the gameplay at all just the progression. The bosses would be just as tough, you would die just as many times, you would still get killed in just as many hits

 

[Dr. Claus]

Those features you mentioned will just suck all the fun out of the game, If I want something like that then I would just play recent Assassins Creed game that trying be "Souls like".

Not to mention, things like altering the souls ecosystem (more souls required to gain more stats ovewrall and increase your level) makes the pain of death completely negligable and can make your character feel less unique. At that point they may as well just remove stats altogether as it would essentially serve the same purpose.

I will never understand this idea that the games need to be "easy", especially when they aren't really all that difficult to begin with. Being patient and learning the tools you have are keys to winning. At most, if you die you get sent back maybe 5-10 min as is. The areas in all souls games inbetween bonfires (unless you are somehow blind and miss one) are not that large. You can quickly get back to almost every boss in less than 2-3 min just running to them from the nearest bonfire.

 

[Danjin44]

Not to mention, things like altering the souls ecosystem (more souls required to gain more stats ovewrall and increase your level) makes the pain of death completely negligable and can make your character feel less unique. At that point they may as well just remove stats altogether as it would essentially serve the same purpose.

I will never understand this idea that the games need to be "easy", especially when they aren't really all that difficult to begin with. Being patient and learning the tools you have are keys to winning. At most, if you die you get sent back maybe 5-10 min as is. The areas in all souls games inbetween bonfires (unless you are somehow blind and miss one) are not that large. You can quickly get back to almost every boss in less than 2-3 min just running to them from the nearest bonfire.

 

[KiNeMz]

Taking abuse and liking it is not a good quality. It's like they took all the worst lessons of the 8bit era like restarting the whole game or large sections to artificially make it seem longer and applied them to a modern game

Abuse? You consider video gaming abuse? If its painful for you dont play it. Why do you want to play this game?

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Abuse? You consider video gaming abuse? If its painful for you dont play it. Why do you want to play this game?

Cause it's got awesome combat. It's very satisfying to beat a hard boss. It has awesome environments and lore and music and everything. A few stupid rules to try and extend the hours that basically ruin it but the core game is great

 

[Saruhashi]

You mean the people that doesn't want an easier experience for others when theirs are exactly the same?




Can a developer not say "yes we want more people to be able to enjoy the game with options of difficulty adapted to their abilities" without an army of entitled exclusive elitists badgering them on and on and on to NOT make those options into the game for those people?



You mean a game with the requisite of others not being able to play it so you can feel superior? because otherwise the game and the whole experience is exactly the same for you, because you will never use any easier difficulty mode than the hardest one.




People just want to enjoy the games with different options, according to their skills, time, patience, what they appreciate from the games apart from the difficulty of the combat mechanics, ... An elitist club are bitching and moaning relentlessly that other's different enjoyment of the games are ruining their feeling of superiority and exclusiveness.




Others experience with the games don't have any influence in yours, why not let it slide?



There's plenty more outrage in the people that does NOT want for others to be able to enjoy those games easier.
It would be like, let's say, some racing sim fans saying "NO! there shouldn't be any choice of assists and difficulty settings for those cars and tracks! they aren't hard for me! why should there be options for other people?"




Seems easier to just le those people have their CHOICE on how they prefer to play and just ignore it.

Your "parade" only materializes in preventing others from enjoying the game their way, when it doesn't affect yours at all. So in fact it's you the petty one pissing on others.

To clarify here, your stance on this is that those people who just want a game with a singular difficulty level can't even have ONE launch title that fits that criteria?

For some reason there's a handful of games every gen that can't just be what the developer wants to make for their own community that's they've built up.

Nope. Can't have that. Not even if its a small number of games. Need to bitch and moan endlessly until they change it.

I just don't get why people can't just say "look its only a few games that are like that so let's just ignore them and leave them to it".

Why the constant push to have them change their philosophy? It's well established by now that these games are what they are. It's not like they are a large % of the available games. Why change them at all?

 

[Saruhashi]

Cause it's got awesome combat. It's very satisfying to beat a hard boss. It has awesome environments and lore and music and everything. A few stupid rules to try and extend the hours that basically ruin it but the core game is great

Can you quantify that?
How many hours is it extended by?

Are you sure thats the intention of the developers, to deliberately make the game longer?

I always thought the philosophy was to make the player afraid to die and kind of "punish" failure to some extent. Thus building up an tense and oppressive atmosphere.

 

[Saruhashi]

You alright there, Captain Goalpost Change?

You directly state that a game should be the way the developer wants it, but once you realise that means your argument about wanting an easy mode doesn’t bear up anymore, you change tack.

Edit: here are your exact words, in bold and italic, because they ate just so extra special:

“And as stated, this is not even about the devs intentions, because if they do put several difficulty options in the end, then it was their intention.”

So what is it? Should we go along with a devs intention? Or continue to piss and moan when that intention doesn’t go along with what we want?

Fuck me, you’re all so totally transparent

You can actually see where they are tying their feeble little brains in knots too.

"The developer can make the game they want!"
Proceeds to apply constant pressure to developer to change aspects of the game.
"See! They changed it now because that's what they wanted to do!"

If these people were cool with developers doing whatever they wanted then this conversation wouldn't exist.

"Games are art! We respect the artists intent and vision!"

OK. So we made a game that is quite challenging and the only way to beat the challenge is to learn the game and get good at it. No easy mode etc.

"Noooooo not like that! You must change your vision immediately!"

 

[Saber]

Taking abuse and liking it is not a good quality.

Abuse? Lol
No son, it's being defeated and use it as learning experience.

Did you ever played games and get a game over screen? Or people nowadays are too afraid of losing?

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Abuse? Lol
No son, it's being defeated and use it as learning experience.

Did you ever played games and get a game over screen? Or people nowadays are too afraid of losing?

Sure and then I wanna get back to the part that's challenging. Not have to go slowly through all the easy parts

 

[Keihart]

I beat most Fromsoft games multiple times. For me they're not that hard if you're patient. I'm just saying have an easy mode where you can take a couple of more hits before you die. Nothing game-breaking.

You can actually do this, chose a class and build a stat that gives you health, ez.

 

[Saber]

Sure and then I wanna get back to the part that's challenging. Not have to go slowly through all the easy parts

Not at all.
The game didn't make you return all over to make people like you mad.
They want you to learn. Pretty much learn how to deal with the game mechanics, enemies paterns, level design, etc. It's has nothing to do with difficulty, it's a core design they choose and one of things that made it a Souls game. Resulting in a bunch of clones.

If you think this has any similarity with old ass games, then I have to presume you play them. And if you played them with that line of thinking you would have quitted gaming long time ago.

 

[dyergram]

just watch a play through and hold the controller like a actual baby.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Not at all.
The game didn't make you return all over to make people like you mad.
They want you to learn. Pretty much learn how to deal with the game mechanics, enemies paterns, level design, etc. It's has nothing to do with difficulty, it's a core design they choose and one of things that made it a Souls game. Resulting in a bunch of clones.

If you think this has any similarity with old ass games, then I have to presume you play them. And if you played them with that line of thinking you would have quitted gaming long time ago.

I love the old games...with quick saves. And I still think souls games are great when the pc version has a quick save or no souls loss mods on

 

[Iced Arcade]

...then you don't want to play souls

 

[FukuDaruma]

To clarify here, your stance on this is that those people who just want a game with a singular difficulty level can't even have ONE launch title that fits that criteria?

For some reason there's a handful of games every gen that can't just be what the developer wants to make for their own community that's they've built up.

Nope. Can't have that. Not even if its a small number of games. Need to bitch and moan endlessly until they change it.

I just don't get why people can't just say "look its only a few games that are like that so let's just ignore them and leave them to it".

Why the constant push to have them change their philosophy? It's well established by now that these games are what they are. It's not like they are a large % of the available games. Why change them at all?

To clarify here, your stance on this is that those people who just want an option that doesnt affect your gaming experience at all can't have that?

Again: if the devs end up putting difficulty options in the game you are against it, so it is not about what the devs want, but about what you want, even opposing them. Need to bitch and moan endlessly for your elitist club and your superiority fantasy not to be broken.

This is pretty simple:

1. Some people want to enjoy a game they can't.

2. Some people that enjoy it do NOT want those other people to be able to, even when that doesn't change a single fucking thing of their own experience.

3. The only thing you're bitching about is to be able to deny others enjoyment. NOTHING besides that changes for you.


If I enjoy playing Doom in "Ultra-Hardcore"... what the fuck do I care if other people enjoy playing it in "I'm Too Young to Die"? it doesn't take shit from MY game experience.

 

[Saruhashi]

Not at all.
The game didn't make you return all over to make people like you mad.
They want you to learn. Pretty much learn how to deal with the game mechanics, enemies paterns, level design, etc. It's has nothing to do with difficulty, it's a core design they choose and one of things that made it a Souls game. Resulting in a bunch of clones.

If you think this has any similarity with old ass games, then I have to presume you play them. And if you played them with that line of thinking you would have quitted gaming long time ago.

I think ultimately it comes down to people not agreeing with From's design philosophy.

Which is fair enough.

Whats unfortunate is that disagreement has now fully grown into sustained pressure to change their philosophy.

There are so many games out there that it just seems so needless.

Maybe a driving factor is just people who can't accept defeat. Both in the game and in a philosophical disagreement with the games developers. So they just have to keep on pushing until they get their way.

 

[BusierDonkey]

Demon Souls already has an easy mode for people who don't actually want to play the game.

You can find it here:

YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Saber]

I love the old games...with quick saves. And I still think souls games are great when the pc version has a quick save or no souls loss mods on

Lol, now I see your problem.

Save states spoiled you.

 

[Danjin44]

1. Some people want to enjoy a game they can't.

Why some people act as this has some kind of crazy hard learning curve? The combat is very simple, the game is not even hard, there is no complex system you need learn, all the game is really asking is little engagement, I don't understand what so hard about that?

 

[FukuDaruma]

Demon Souls already has an easy mode for people who don't actually want to play the game.

You can find it here:

YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

This absolutely original joke was inmensely funny the first 3 times it was posted in this thread.

If you like passive activity and shitty youtube/twitch video and sound quality continue with your pleasures, nobody asked for that.

 

[Saruhashi]

To clarify here, your stance on this is that those people who just want an option that doesnt affect your gaming experience at all can't have that?

Again: if the devs end up putting difficulty options in the game you are against it, so it is not about what the devs want, but about what you want, even opposing them. Need to bitch and moan endlessly for your elitist club and your superiority fantasy not to be broken.

This is pretty simple:

1. Some people want to enjoy a game they can't.

2. Some people that enjoy it do NOT want those other people to be able to, even when that doesn't change a single fucking thing of their own experience.

3. The only thing you're bitching about is to be able to neglect others enjoyment. NOTHING besides that changes for you.

As I said, these games are already well established.

You are the one demanding change.

I am simply saying why not let them just do what they've always done?

It is, after all, just a handful of games and they've been doing this specific thing for a while.

I am on the side of "fine just keep doing what you've been doing, no problem."

You are demanding that this specific developer change their philosophy for these specific games. A very small line up of games at that.

Yet somehow you've also convinced yourself that the people saying" no just let them keep on doing what they've been doing for over a decade at this point" are in the wrong here. Somehow.

Why not just let them keep on doing their thing?

You clearly disagree with their philosophy on game development and challenge and you clearly disagree with the philosophy of the community that loves their games.

Fine. So what?

Why not just agree to disagree and move on?

What's the logic behind "I don't agree with how they make their games so I am going to screech for as many years as it takes for them to change it"?

All this over five or so games out of hundreds, probably thousands, of available games.

Like this one nail just NEEDS to be hammered down?