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kurisu_1974
is on perm warning for being a low level troll
I remember the 90s PC times. Inserting lesbians would have been called tokenism.
Sander Cohen
Member
So, I took the time to make a list of all protagonists in PS5 reveal games based on sex and race if and when possible.
Males 10 (4 white, 4 black, 1 Asian, 1 undefined)
Females 6 (they were all whitish, light skinned or in one case otherworldly)
Cars 2
Animals/monsters 4
A doll 1
Robots 1
Undefined 3
My take on this is that it’s not all doom and gloom and games that really go off the deep end like BFV can face tremendous backlash that will affect their sales and perhaps even more importantly image of the brand for the future. And keep in mind, many of these games are going to end up being indie shovelware like usual. I really don’t believe games with female protagonists sell as well as games with male protagonist for the simple fact that vast majority of AAA gamers are male. How did it work for Control, for example?
But anyway, these games are really secondary to new CoD, FIFA, Ass Creed and other major multiplats that will sell new hardware. This is always the case. Just look at what Modern Warfare is doing since launch sales wise. And those games will stay firmly in dudebro male category.
Males 10 (4 white, 4 black, 1 Asian, 1 undefined)
Females 6 (they were all whitish, light skinned or in one case otherworldly)
Cars 2
Animals/monsters 4
A doll 1
Robots 1
Undefined 3
My take on this is that it’s not all doom and gloom and games that really go off the deep end like BFV can face tremendous backlash that will affect their sales and perhaps even more importantly image of the brand for the future. And keep in mind, many of these games are going to end up being indie shovelware like usual. I really don’t believe games with female protagonists sell as well as games with male protagonist for the simple fact that vast majority of AAA gamers are male. How did it work for Control, for example?
But anyway, these games are really secondary to new CoD, FIFA, Ass Creed and other major multiplats that will sell new hardware. This is always the case. Just look at what Modern Warfare is doing since launch sales wise. And those games will stay firmly in dudebro male category.
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
TALK THAT SHIT, KING!
KungFucius
King Snowflake
More manbaby crying. Boo Hoo someone who wrote a story inserted elements of their beliefs into it and I can't get past my hatred for all people who think like that so I need to cry about it. That's what I see here. That and cherry picking a few anecdotes to make it look like the red scare.
If you want a game that isn't political play one that doesn't have a story or is story light. Or maybe you could try to respect other's views and not feel threatened by them. I know that one is as stretch.
I am curious what these whiners really want. Is it story that is about killing evil antifa libtards or something? Or is it just offensive that the main character is not a white male? Mario is a white male and doesn't appear to be a socialist.
If you hate all these people and their creations so much maybe you need to show them how it is done and make a good game that isn't poisoned by wokeness.
If you want a game that isn't political play one that doesn't have a story or is story light. Or maybe you could try to respect other's views and not feel threatened by them. I know that one is as stretch.
I am curious what these whiners really want. Is it story that is about killing evil antifa libtards or something? Or is it just offensive that the main character is not a white male? Mario is a white male and doesn't appear to be a socialist.
If you hate all these people and their creations so much maybe you need to show them how it is done and make a good game that isn't poisoned by wokeness.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Not in my house it isn’t
REE Machine
Banned
You don't like censorship but you want to censor a developers creative freedom when it comes to how they want to make a game involving story, characters etc.... pick a side already, fuck.
plus it's hilarious when it comes talking about censoring is only about tits and ass, cant take your arguments seriously at all lol
plus it's hilarious when it comes talking about censoring is only about tits and ass, cant take your arguments seriously at all lol
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Joshmyersbv
Member
I mean let's think about it this way, let say Rocksteady's new game is batwomen (the Kate Kane version). It's already been in development for 5 years and their marketing strategy is to pander to SJW's. Do you honestly think they can sell enough copies to justify its budget? Do you think WB (or whoever buys them) will give them the same budget to make another game? I wouldn't think so.
We have seen studios get close down and popular IPs get destroyed for game play changes or the addition of micro transactions (Dead Space 3, Dead Rising 4 etc). Hell the Mass Effect series got fucked by an ending and a buggy launch. What do you think will happen to a AAA game where the main character has gender dysphoria who thinks their a deer? (Come on Neil you know you want to)
I can guarantee the company that makes Goodbye Volcano High won't exist in 4 years.
We have seen studios get close down and popular IPs get destroyed for game play changes or the addition of micro transactions (Dead Space 3, Dead Rising 4 etc). Hell the Mass Effect series got fucked by an ending and a buggy launch. What do you think will happen to a AAA game where the main character has gender dysphoria who thinks their a deer? (Come on Neil you know you want to)
I can guarantee the company that makes Goodbye Volcano High won't exist in 4 years.
REE Machine
Banned
Oooofff come back with that statement after tloup2 releases next week
Bonsaibäumchen
Member
Before I start I want to point out that I'm merely stating my opinion and I'll gladly listen to/discus with people who think otherwise.
After the last Sony event I had mixed feelings. While there were definitely good looking games, others raised questions to me and not in a good games.
We already saw in the current gen more and more companies try to score woke points by pandering to our purple haired friends at Resetera. While we all remember the battlefield V-drama also other companies believed that pandering translated into more sales. Examples were animal crossing, rage 2, dishonored, Wolfenstein.
While you'd think that companies learn from this, the wokeness not only does not stop, they even seem to go further.
Games in general reaches people of all ages and are thus a great medium to sell a political agenda. Without throwing oil again on the The Last of Us 2-fire, the developer clearly stated that the game would be inspired by his personal politics.
Even during game conventions a forum is given to parties that strive for diversity, political correctness and censorship in video games. I believe this is a dangerous trend as it means that developers who threw years of finances and talent into a game can face backlash simply for not meeting representation quota for a specific community. For example Days gone was review bombed by individuals because it was too white focused with two white protagonists. I fear now this will encourage other developers even more to get on the woke train because they could potentially lose profit for simplu not being inclusive enough, even if it doesn't benefits the goal of the game.
As someone who has been a Playstation fan all my life I fear even the most for Sony. The western headquarters lie in San Mateo, California which is a very leftist orientated state. So for them representation is a very important topic and I reckon it will stay so. In Hollywood they are currently working in such a way that you have to meet a certain inclusiveness quota to be eliglible for an Oscar nomination so I wouldn't be surprised if this practice would be copied to the gaming industry.
Sony had already shown disturbing signs of censorship. Removing cleavage from female npc's, making women less feminine because they might offend the trans players etc
The reason I believe this will only worsen is because the people they try to pander with wokeness will A) never play the game anyway . B) can never be satisfied. Even one of the games during the last event is facing backlash because of certain racial stereotypes. They don't seem to realize you can't win with these people. They'll just keep try to please them and and revenue lost will simply be linked to bigotry/sexism/racism or any kind of buzzword.
While I have no problem with certain inclusiveness as long it benefits the story or gameplay I believe this is rarely the case. While I'll admit that I am more right leaning I would be equally displeased with games that would be inspired by right politics.
For me games are fun escapes of reality where I'd like to forget social issues for a few hours and just enjoy a game which shows the developers creativity and which is not used as a Trojan horse for a political agenda. I am certainly not saying developers can't implement their personal politics because that would also be a sort of censorship and I support developer creativity as long it doesn't involve illegal activities (like the developer of the Volcano high game). I can simply chose not to play the game and hope others still enjoy it nevertheless.
As much as I love gaming I'm afraid this could be a determening factor for me to stop gaming or at least go retro.
So what is your opinion on this fellow gaffers. How do you feel about personal politics in games, are you indifferent about censorship and how high do you rate representation in games.
I really hope the game industry will evolve to be even more woke and move more towards SJW and all those bullshit terms people like you love to use.
I want them to shove it down your throats so either you'll get over it and deal with it or stop playing altogether. At least I won't have to read so much bullshit then.
Have a nice day, though.
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hunthunt
Banned
alabtrosMyster
Banned
No the woke crowd is Twitter and they make sure that dissenting views are off limit.
So the woke don't like fat people? Because this is how they represent the "bad" people in their cartoons.
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JeloSWE
Member
Rean no Kiseki
Banned
This is the original meme
What it means the average Joe doesn't give a shit about what the neckbeard is talking about.
Get woke go broke is a stupid statment, and has been proven to be false time and time again.
Those who scream "vote with your wallet" are also wrong, because they think that they are a majority or that their internet/twitter screching is going to change anything.
If you want to make a "traditional values" game go make one yourselves, like you told Anita and her ilk to do back in 2014.
JeloSWE
Member
Cant edit my posts but Demon's Souls allows Female character if I'm not mistaken.That's BS! - here is a quick gender spread from the PS5 reveal event.
Woopah
Member
In terms of diversity of protagonists the industry is definitely moving in the right direction.
In the past there were barriers to creating protagonists that were women or protagonists that had darker skin. Executives used to think gamers didn't like women in games or darker skinned people in games and it would make them lose money, but I think the vast majority of gamers don't care at all.
Now those barriers are coming down and I'm in favour of that. Developers should be able to make any type of protagonist they want and I think that's now the case.
In the past there were barriers to creating protagonists that were women or protagonists that had darker skin. Executives used to think gamers didn't like women in games or darker skinned people in games and it would make them lose money, but I think the vast majority of gamers don't care at all.
Now those barriers are coming down and I'm in favour of that. Developers should be able to make any type of protagonist they want and I think that's now the case.
Raonak
Banned
It's gonna be funny when games get even more woke and start having overweight main characters and the anti-sjw crowd won't know what to feel about it.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
You wish they were asleep, because they make the world a nightmare for the rest of us.
Marxism is Great for a Designer, that view is the most twisted view someone can present, Marxism does not allow for freedom of thought, nor does it allow one to live of off their creations.
and that second point "Before Socialism must be Capitalism" that's the problem, socialism eats out the riches of capitalism, after a while you have no choice but to return to another system because you exhausted all the resources from when you were capitalist and prevented all the creative people to create new ones for too long. However you can argue that an artist who is not starving is not really an artist, and a lot of people starve in socialist regimes.
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captainraincoat
Banned
Yeah furrie games in your conference is a sure fire sign
Storm Prelude
Member
Some of you guys are really complaining about having female protagonists in video games.
We do really living a blessed time.
We do really living a blessed time.
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
You believe there are absolutely no situations/events that vigorously demand a definitive decision which side of the fence you're on? You do believe that fate never calls for that leap of faith, to choose a side which you believe is the right one? That there are no states of exception in this world? Yes, I do believe there are times when all of us have to decide what we believe is right and wrong. It seems the era ppl think this state is permanent, which I don't. Tells you a lot about them. They're at war with something. Maybe that something is something you wouldn't want to die?
Aidah
Member
It's an interesting topic.
Personally I'm all for letting people make whatever they want to make.
If some creative is a "woke" person and wants to insert his "wokeness" in the game that's up to them.
Likewise, if the creative is the opposite, they should feel free to express it.
My real issue with the "woke" trend and "woke" crowd is that it's not just that they want "woke" games to exist, it's that they want everyone to feel pressured to be more "woke", even in places on the opposite side of the world to them.
As far as a solution goes. It's difficult. Supporting what you agree with is most of what you can do, but I'm hoping that eventually they get over it and things will become more balanced.
Also, some of these replies...
Personally I'm all for letting people make whatever they want to make.
If some creative is a "woke" person and wants to insert his "wokeness" in the game that's up to them.
Likewise, if the creative is the opposite, they should feel free to express it.
My real issue with the "woke" trend and "woke" crowd is that it's not just that they want "woke" games to exist, it's that they want everyone to feel pressured to be more "woke", even in places on the opposite side of the world to them.
As far as a solution goes. It's difficult. Supporting what you agree with is most of what you can do, but I'm hoping that eventually they get over it and things will become more balanced.
Also, some of these replies...
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ipukespiders
Member
Amazing thread summary in an easily digestible form.
You should also write CliffNotes study guides.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
The whole argument of something being "woke" or not is silly
A good game is a good game no whether I'm playing a male or female, white, black, or whatever
A good game is a good game no whether I'm playing a male or female, white, black, or whatever
DaleinCalgary
Member
Yes companies everywhere say and do things for current popular-political opinion. Most people see through that shit and roll their eyes.
But if that company does something you don't agree with then vote with your wallet. In the end life's too short let it bother you.
But if that company does something you don't agree with then vote with your wallet. In the end life's too short let it bother you.
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10000
Banned
If those "definitive decision" you take involves wishing companies loss for their creative input (that some of you blindly label it as toxic or poisonous because they include ugly LGBTQ+ characters) and also wanting to strike them further because their view isn't aligned with yours, then you are no better than resetera people, and this also applies to some users here that disguise themselves as "logically moderate" but also couldn't accept difference in the developers creative input for fictive works.
hypocrisy at it finest
Insane Metal
Member
Just enjoy the games as they come 
BacklashWave534
Member
Some of my favorite games have female protagonists, but thanks for labeling us and adding absolutely nothing to the conversation. By the way, i believe you meant to type resetera for the URL.
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REE Machine
Banned
Thats great thats not you but theres a good amount of people on gaf who do think that, least you're not in that pile
JeloSWE
Member
When talking about this you first need to separate physical sex, what your chromosomes code for, and then you have, gender, what you feel/identify as. Cis is basically that the gender you identify as is the same as you physical sex. A trans person might identify as a Woman but was born a physical man. Able bodied I have no clue, if I had to guess they mean strong and healthy looking.
I've had to read up on this to understand what all this new words mean. I find it confusing and at times very tiresome but I understand the fundamental importance of the matter. I you don't make a lot of noise you won't see any change but there certainly are a lot of bad apples taking this over the top or for personal gains, as is the case in ANT group of people.
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
I don't know who you're talking about, but I guess there are some of us who think like that. I don't give a shit about developers putting gay or trans characters in their games. I can enjoy them regardless, because I don't feel offended by different opinions or life styles or whatever (I even went to see Black Panther and enjoyed it). Videogames is not where this conflict will be decided in the end. It seems you're avoiding my question. Do you like democracy, civil rights and the seperation of powers? Do you like being free? Well then maybe, just maybe, you and I will at some point in the future have do decide: Flee or fight. You don't really believe these people are just here to push for certain topics in videogames, do you? Their political goals go far beyond videogames and entertainment. That's what I care about. I don't give a shit about VG, it's just a leisure activity for me. When this generational shift is over, I'll be once again a passive user of this forum. That's how much I care about VG. I do care a lot about my civil liberties, however. I hope you do, too.
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sol_bad
Member
You do realise that you will most likely get to play both characters .... right?
The female furry will probably have different gameplay mechanics to Ratchet. What the hell makes you think they'd get rid of Ratchet?
REE Machine
Banned
Just a heterosexual white male, honestly no matter the race or gender just give me a well written character with depth, but i do want more minority and female characters overall in games.
Virex
Banned
That is still too able bodied to be diverse enough
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
More diversity in gaming really isn’t a bad thing as long as game companies are making the games they want to make. Something like Wolfenstein 2 was a step back because of the gameplay and writing and not because of any diversity issue.
Censorship is absolute bullshit though. Let the market decide if there’s demand for lewd games with heavy fan service. As long as the game doesn’t depict pedophilia then there shouldn’t be a problem.
Censorship is absolute bullshit though. Let the market decide if there’s demand for lewd games with heavy fan service. As long as the game doesn’t depict pedophilia then there shouldn’t be a problem.
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Eimran
Member
I literally said: I am certainly not saying developers can't implement their personal politics because that would also be a sort of censorship and I support developer creativity as long it doesn't involve illegal activities (like the developer of the Volcano high game). I can simply chose not to play the game and hope others still enjoy it nevertheless.
You didn't even bother to read the entire post, but also have no problem in screeching your opinion. Pretty sure that makes you the one who won't be taken seriously.
About the censorship, I think one example pretty much already demonstrates my point but this also includes censorship of blood, Gore and dismemberment. Hope you're satisfied.
B-universe
Banned
Example of a clumsy post = One poster represents the whole of GAF
Developers ought to do whatever they feel like doing. If at this point in time, for whatever reason, even if because of pure opportunism, that means them only having female protagonists, black protagonists, pansexual protagonists, etc., so be it. It's their game, their studio, their time, their money, so it's their right. Which brings me to the point:
Exactly.
Stop buying their games, if you oppose their ideology. Own your principles, live by them. This isn't an inconvenience-less effort. You will have to pay a price: at the very least, you'll have a less comfortable, less pleasurable life. You'll probably have to relinquish games you would otherwise enjoy. Don't shift the burden onto others and ask developers and journalists to live according to your principles just so you don't have to change a thing and can keep living scot-free, exactly as you used to.
If you feel that strongly, stop buying these games, stop watching trailers, stop clicking on articles, stop retweeting, stop funding these developers and media outlets by rewarding them in the Attention economy.
Just stop.
And if enough people eventually do stop, then and only then you just might stand a chance of getting the message across.
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Gamerguy84
Member
I dont like to make things complicated, I always try to simplify the things that are.
If it gets bad Ill just end up with a different hobby to fill the time.
If it gets bad Ill just end up with a different hobby to fill the time.
REE Machine
Banned
You can say that all you want but half your post was a stance against it and developers putting in their politics, pick a fucking side you dense mother fucker, either be for censorship or be against it. Im Tired of the fence sitting esp when majaority of your post was ripping devs for doing what they want and heading a warning of "wokeness"I literally said: I am certainly not saying developers can't implement their personal politics because that would also be a sort of censorship and I support developer creativity as long it doesn't involve illegal activities (like the developer of the Volcano high game). I can simply chose not to play the game and hope others still enjoy it nevertheless.
You didn't even bother to read the entire post, but also have no problem in screeching your opinion. Pretty sure that makes you the one who won't be taken seriously.
About the censorship, I think one example pretty much already demonstrates my point but this also includes censorship of blood, Gore and dismemberment. Hope you're satisfied.
old men yelling at clouds seriously
I HAVE PROBLEM WITH THING!!!
Escoe P. Coldchain
Banned
Ive never had a problem with the main character being whatever. Ive never cared. It honestly doesn’t matter if its a man/woman, black/white, straight/gay.
I honestly doesnt matter. Now that being said. It is pretty noticeable that minority’s are just being shoe horned in. In a way it feels really disingenuous.
I honestly doesnt matter. Now that being said. It is pretty noticeable that minority’s are just being shoe horned in. In a way it feels really disingenuous.
Eimran
Member
Thanks for adding absolutely nothing to the debate but screeching and insults. There's only one person here talking about hatred and it ain't me. According to your logic anyone who has a different opinion than you equals a hate filled personality. Maybe stop doing that and you'll be taken more seriously.
I even clearly stated that I still respect the developers choice and hope others enjoy the game but that I eg simply won't buy games that get too political for me.
It is an opinion (look it up) like I clearly stated and would be happy to hear others opinions. Seriously, did you even read past the first sentence?? Autistic screeching doesn't make your point any more valid.
Eimran
Member
Capital letters, screeching, not reading the post....Seems like you're the old man who yells at clouds because of lack of arguments.
And again.. read the post. I point out that I'm against it. But I respect the developers freedom nevertheless. Do some comprehensive reading.
Pick up a dictionary and learn the meaning of the word 'opinion'. Come back once you cooled off.
B-universe
Banned
You can't think of an example, a single one?
Lay off the Camembert, then.
What a dumb statement.
How about reading what they actually say or even asking them, instead of pretending you can read minds and discern intentions, which you then presume to be unanimous?
I say by all means vote with your wallet, and I don't think I'm in the majority. That's not the reason why I call upon others to do it. It'll do you good to realize not everyone is a spineless opportunist.
Another dumb remark.
It's now evident a certain kind of screeching on Twitter is indeed effective. It just so happens you like one kind of screeching but dislike the other.
False dichotomy.
There are more options then either just shutting up or making your own game.
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48086
Member
I have no problem with non white male protags. What does annoy me is obviously taking a white male protagonist and replacing it. For example, Cat lady in space is fine because it’s a new story and I new ip. She looks horrendous as a main character to play as and I’ll never buy the game but whatever it’s fine. Having miles be the “new” Spider-Man is annoying because it’s obvious that’s for woke points. Thats why the original character was created by marvel.
Either way, the slide in OP says it best.
When it comes to mass media, the end goal is the replacement of the white male and tradition American values. This was happening before Trump but his election definitely sped up the process. Breaking the brain of millions of people with mental illness will do that lol.
Also, it’s not just Sony. Microsoft is going extremely woke. I still laugh about Halo 5.
Either way, the slide in OP says it best.
When it comes to mass media, the end goal is the replacement of the white male and tradition American values. This was happening before Trump but his election definitely sped up the process. Breaking the brain of millions of people with mental illness will do that lol.
Also, it’s not just Sony. Microsoft is going extremely woke. I still laugh about Halo 5.
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Dr_Salt
Member
Idc if a developer wants to make a woke game from scratch and add his own political agenda. The real problem for me is when they start injecting their wokeness into old well known franchises just for the sake of pandering to the sjw crowd without adding anything of value to the game. This is happening in movies and it is also starting to happen in video games.
Super_queijo
Neo Member
I don't understand the point of the thread, respectfully of course. What's the alternative for a "not woke" VG industry? What we had in the last 20 years with default white male bald tough looking edgy (not too much, sometimes too much) dominating game narratives? What's the problem of diversity? Besideas that, everyone has an agenda, it's impossible to make a nonpolitical art piece (choosing to be nonpolitical it's a political choice). In the end, you can either choose a inclusive agenda or a exclusive agenda, there isn't the "No agenda" option. One thing is bashing games for their quality, other thing is bashing them for their content (unless it's unrespectful to a group of people). There will always be white male centred games, because there will always exist the demography for them, creating inclusive games doesn't exclude no one.
The Sony conference showed a range of characters and the facts do not seem to demonstrate anything egregious. You had black characters and white characters, male characters and female characters.
Aside from that weird volcano high game, nothing else seemed particularly "woke" so this sounds more like a continuation of system wars nonsense under the cover of something else.
An adult should make adult arguments, not whine emotionally over what they preceive. Someone in a previous post did the legwork in counting and I don't see the problem there nor are game sales impacted by female leads either. Horizon Zero Dawn, Perfect Dark, Tomb Raider (being a massively long series carried by a female lead), and even TLoU2 out this week will sell well.
Aside from that weird volcano high game, nothing else seemed particularly "woke" so this sounds more like a continuation of system wars nonsense under the cover of something else.
An adult should make adult arguments, not whine emotionally over what they preceive. Someone in a previous post did the legwork in counting and I don't see the problem there nor are game sales impacted by female leads either. Horizon Zero Dawn, Perfect Dark, Tomb Raider (being a massively long series carried by a female lead), and even TLoU2 out this week will sell well.