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[VFXVeteran]

Ok. So let's put all the soothsayer predictions aside and watch for a real world example of superiority.

What game are the Sony gamers thinking will be the first representation of superior graphics due to having an SSD? Will it be a 3rd party game at all? Or only a first party game? I'm just trying to wait for THE game that is going to show off what many of you believe.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Correctly! The system is not more powerful, but since it is starving for memory the less RAM is used for cache and more for rendering the better.

This helped me understand it better. Basically since the assets can be loaded alot quicker not as much needs to be drawn. With a HDD you can definitely reduce what's shown but then you will have severe issues with pop-in.

Now what you save in drawing the assets you can relocate to other things such as improved LOD to assets that are close to the player.

This doesn't make the console more powerful. It just allows to use it's power more efficiently.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Ok. So let's put all the soothsayer predictions aside and watch for a real world example of superiority.

What game are the Sony gamers thinking will be the first representation of superior graphics due to having an SSD? Will it be a 3rd party game at all? Or only a first party game? I'm just trying to wait for THE game that is going to show off what many of you believe.

I'm guessing a game like Horizon Zero Dawn 2 will be one of the first to demonstrate what the SSD is capable of. We have to wait and see what improvements the SSD brings and I'm sure Sony will explain that to us.

 

[Red_Driver85]

I'm guessing a game like Horizon Zero Dawn 2

Well, any big exclusive open-world game for PS5 must be a representative enough for what we got.

 

[psorcerer]

However in the end the power of the system remains the same.

The problem here lies with "power" what's "power"?
If we're talking about render then "power" is probably how close you're to a real believable lighting calculation.
I.e "is it like a movie?" (animated feature is still a movie).

You can reach the goal of a this "power" in two approaches:
1. Real time calculation.
2. Pre-calculation.
Obviously most of the current and future games use both 1. and 2. mixed in some proportion.

Mainly 1. is: RT, GI, reflections, shadows, AO, etc.
Mainly 2. is: caustics, textures, photogrammetry,PBR, spherical garmonics, etc.

To improve 1. you build better GPU and CPU.
To improve 2. you build faster and more RAM and faster SSD.

 

[psorcerer]

What about the geometry engine Cerny was talking about ? Why was it so important in his GDC speech (and not VRS) ? I thought geometry engine was already in RDNA1.

I don't know anything about GE, and even if I did it would be under NDA.
Until Sony or MSFT or both publish some data on it we cannot discuss it.

 

[hyperbertha]

So suddenly the PS5 GPU's power doesn't matter? That's odd. I have a pretty damn good SSD in my PC but somehow it's not letting me play games on ultra settings at 4K.

Because all games are self aware and immediately rewrite their entire programming to accomodate SSD streaming the moment they detect one. Why can't people with zero clue just STFU and READ THE ****ing OP?

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Why can't people with zero clue just STFU and READ THE ****ing OP?

Give it a rest.

 

[Sota4077]

This helped me understand it better. Basically since the assets can be loaded alot quicker not as much needs to be drawn. With a HDD you can definitely reduce what's shown but then you will have severe issues with pop-in.

Now what you save in drawing the assets you can relocate to other things such as improved LOD to assets that are close to the player.

This doesn't make the console more powerful. It just allows to use it's power more efficiently.

This. This is the only answer that has been logical thus far. The OP and many others have been stating or at the very least are guilty of implying otherwise. SSD's will let developers load higher quality assets faster. It will not let them load more assets of higher quality. If they had access to 6GB of GPU RAM before they have the same amount now. The most a game will ever show on the screen is the maximum amount allowed given the available ram to the GPU. The GPU can read it, back buffer it, pass it to forward buffer and dump it extremely efficiently without having to wait for things to load in. That is all. Every frame still gets rendered in and passed to your screen. There is no secret SSD's that has been newly discovered with new consoles aside from the efficiency of designing to an identical benchmark all the time.

 

[psorcerer]

I am very eager to see how this decision of cost cutting on memory works out for consoles in multi platform games.

I want to see what works out better... a fast SSD or larger RAM.

A Consoles with 16GB memory pool + superfast SSD and custom decompression chips.
vs
A PC with 8GB+ vRAM, 32GB+ fastest DDR4 but deliberately paired with a slow HDD like 5400rpm.

It all depends on the target platform.
If you build a game around PC spec: more RAM, slow SSD. The consoles will have a "gimped" version of the game.
And reverse is also true.
Unless PCs get the same I/O infrastructure next gen won't be that easy to port console<->PC as this one.

 

[DeepEnigma]

This helped me understand it better. Basically since the assets can be loaded alot quicker not as much needs to be drawn. With a HDD you can definitely reduce what's shown but then you will have severe issues with pop-in.

Now what you save in drawing the assets you can relocate to other things such as improved LOD to assets that are close to the player.

This doesn't make the console more powerful. It just allows to use it's power more efficiently.

Exactly this. I can't wait for the jarring geometry pop-in with Frostbite shooters that feel like I am playing an MMO in 2003 to go away now. Battlefront is notorious for this.

 

[Dodkrake]

So suddenly the PS5 GPU's power doesn't matter? That's odd. I have a pretty damn good SSD in my PC but somehow it's not letting me play games on ultra settings at 4K.

Because your games were designed for an HDD, not SSD

 

[Bogroll]

Ok. So let's put all the soothsayer predictions aside and watch for a real world example of superiority.

What game are the Sony gamers thinking will be the first representation of superior graphics due to having an SSD? Will it be a 3rd party game at all? Or only a first party game? I'm just trying to wait for THE game that is going to show off what many of you believe.

It's going to be a Sony first party game so they can say this is only possible on a PS5, like how they said Metal Gear Solid 4 was only possible on PS3. Yeah right, i bet it would have run better on 360 but on 3 or 4 disks.
P.s i know MGS4 that wasn't a Sony game.

 

[hyperbertha]

Give it a rest.

You're one to talk with the way you went RAMBO at the beginning of the thread.

 

[psorcerer]

The OP and many others have been stating or at the very least are guilty of implying otherwise. SSD's will let developers load higher quality assets faster. It will not let them load more assets of higher quality. If they had access to 6GB of GPU RAM before they have the same amount now.

"You can lead a camel to water, but even Allah cannot make it drink"...

 

[MasterCornholio]

This. This is the only answer that has been logical thus far. The OP and many others have been stating or at the very least are guilty of implying otherwise. SSD's will let developers load higher quality assets faster. It will not let them load more assets of higher quality. If they had access to 6GB of GPU RAM before they have the same amount now. The most a game will ever show on the screen is the maximum amount allowed given the available ram to the GPU. The GPU can read it, back buffer it, pass it to forward buffer and dump it extremely efficiently without having to wait for things to load in. That is all. Every frame still gets rendered in and passed to your screen. There is no secret SSD's that has been newly discovered with new consoles aside from the efficiency of designing to an identical benchmark all the time.

In the end I'm seeing two arguments that seem to pop up regarding SSDs that I'm tired of.

1. Having a faster SSD doesn't matter.
2. Having a faster SSD makes the system more powerful.

Both are false and I'm tired of seeing them repeated over and over again.

No it doesn't make the system more powerful but faster is indeed better.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

In the end I'm seeing two arguments that seem to pop up regarding SSDs that I'm tired of.

1. Having a faster SSD doesn't matter.
2. Having a faster SSD makes the system more powerful.

Both are false and I'm tired of seeing them repeated over and over again.

No it doesn't make the system more powerful but faster is indeed better.

Everything is being repeated at this point. There is nothing new here. The FOV gif you posted a few posts up is something I have seen at least 20x in various threads. Ignoring that the XsX's SSD is also ultra fast is the most tiresome repeating theme on the forum, imo. Of course having the faster SSD is nice but they are both only filling 16gigs of RAM at the end of the day. Speeding to stoplight 20 feet away only gets you so much farther, so much faster.

I am sorry but I think there is a lot of bullshit that gets peddled every day.

This is just another SSD thread.

 

[Skyr]

A lot of wishful thinking with little fundamentals in the op.
Just give that topic a rest until we see the receipts.

 

[DeepEnigma]

In the end I'm seeing two arguments that seem to pop up regarding SSDs that I'm tired of.

1. Having a faster SSD doesn't matter.
2. Having a faster SSD makes the system more powerful.

Both are false and I'm tired of seeing them repeated over and over again.

No it doesn't make the system more powerful but faster is indeed better.

It makes for more efficiency.

Just like a TFLOP calculation is a TFLOP calculation, but some are more efficient at it than others.

 

[LittleBigGamer]

SSD is huge for both consoles.

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

You can lead a camel to water, but even Allah cannot make it drink

وما على الرسول إلا البلاغ المبين

 

[Radical_3d]

Ok. So let's put all the soothsayer predictions aside and watch for a real world example of superiority.

What game are the Sony gamers thinking will be the first representation of superior graphics due to having an SSD? Will it be a 3rd party game at all? Or only a first party game? I'm just trying to wait for THE game that is going to show off what many of you believe.

All next gen games aiming to get the most of the many TFs of this machines are going to take advantage of the faster SSD, since all of this machines will need a streaming system that frees the more RAM the better and that prioritises the better assets and the load and unload of those assets. The lack of RAM is a problem shared between the two, and the solution (an SSD) is the same for the two.

 

[onQ123]

"You can lead a camel to water, but even Allah cannot make it drink"...

Seems to be really hard for people to understand that the SSD allows for better memory management & that this 16GB of RAM will go from being used for a whole level or a big part of a level to being used for what is in view.


It's like having a older camcorder with a tape that let you record in high quality or long play the tape is the same tape but long play is not going to look as good as the high quality mode.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Everything is being repeated at this point. There is nothing new here. The FOV gif you posted a few posts up is something I have seen at least 20x in various threads. Ignoring that the XsX's SSD is also ultra fast is the most tiresome repeating theme on the forum, imo. Of course having the faster SSD is nice but they are both only filling 16gigs of RAM at the end of the day. Speeding to stoplight 20 feet away only gets you so much farther, so much faster.

I am sorry but I think there is a lot of bullshit that gets peddled every day.

This is just another SSD thread.

Dude, just don't click on the topics or hide them.

I ignore so many topics that I care not to engage in. Life will be far less stressful, I promise.

 

[CobraXT]

ps5 ssd is not going to make up for the loss of cu's and variance in clock speeds on the cpu and gpu .. its also nowhere near gddr6 levels of
speed so it cant be used as virtual memory ..

 

[Handy Fake]

وما على الرسول إلا البلاغ المبين

 

[onQ123]

All next gen games aiming to get the most of the many TFs of this machines are going to take advantage of the faster SSD, since all of this machines will need a streaming system that frees the more RAM the better and that prioritises the better assets and the load and unload of those assets. The lack of RAM is a problem shared between the two, and the solution (an SSD) is the same for the two.

I tried to explain this but they locked my thread but as you can see that thread was needed because people are still running around saying the same foolish stuff

People downplaying PS5 I/O bandwidth fail to realize that 16GB of RAM is a small upgrade from last Gen & the SSD is going to be it's life line

The trips to the SSD is going to be frequent & nothing like before when you load a level into RAM then play the level. Next Gen consoles will be moving data from the SSD on a frame by frame bases. Sony made sure to get a higher bandwidth than what was on the market before PCIe 4.0 so...

www.neogaf.com

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

 

[MasterCornholio]

ps5 ssd is not going to make up for the loss of cu's and variance in clock speeds on the cpu and gpu .. its also nowhere near gddr6 levels of
speed so it cant be used as virtual memory .........

I think where the arguments are is which differences will be most noticeable?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Why do threads like this upset people so much?

 

[Physiognomonics]

This. This is the only answer that has been logical thus far. The OP and many others have been stating or at the very least are guilty of implying otherwise. SSD's will let developers load higher quality assets faster. It will not let them load more assets of higher quality. If they had access to 6GB of GPU RAM before they have the same amount now. The most a game will ever show on the screen is the maximum amount allowed given the available ram to the GPU. The GPU can read it, back buffer it, pass it to forward buffer and dump it extremely efficiently without having to wait for things to load in. That is all. Every frame still gets rendered in and passed to your screen. There is no secret SSD's that has been newly discovered with new consoles aside from the efficiency of designing to an identical benchmark all the time.

You are missing the point. Often the main bottleneck in order to have more details into each frames is not to render but actually load the data before hand. This is why most open world games use procedural generation, because they can't load enough data quickly enough (but it's not as good as good old fresh data), and this is why the LOD is often not great, particularly on consoles, because the data is not there to be rendered, even if the CPU / GPU could render them.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Why do threads like this upset people so much?

Some people want to win in everything I guess.

It's just best to accept each systems strengths and leave the discussions those who are really interested in the actual tech.

 

[Radical_3d]

I tried to explain this but they locked my thread but as you can see that thread was needed because people are still running around saying the same foolish stuff

People downplaying PS5 I/O bandwidth fail to realize that 16GB of RAM is a small upgrade from last Gen & the SSD is going to be it's life line

The trips to the SSD is going to be frequent & nothing like before when you load a level into RAM then play the level. Next Gen consoles will be moving data from the SSD on a frame by frame bases. Sony made sure to get a higher bandwidth than what was on the market before PCIe 4.0 so...

www.neogaf.com

This is the key part:

Both systems have dedicated silicon to load asset faster from their drives and that's not because people wants 2 second loads time so bad is worth the investment. It's because without fast asset streaming 16GB of RAM at 448-560 GB/s are ridiculous compared with previous generational jumps. So, everyone and their mother are currently implementing in their engines ways to move assets on the fly according to this new especifications.

 

[Drewpee]

I will be the first to say I do not understand this type of tech talk. I think the ball is in Sonys court now to show us how inferior specs will give them more power. Not saying it isn't possible, but I do not know enough about how it all works and need to see the results to truly understand.

 

[Portugeezer]

So will open world games to be closer to linear games graphically?

 

[MasterCornholio]

I think the ball is in Sonys court now to show us how inferior specs will give them more power.

That's not what they are going to have to demonstrate though because they can't. What they have to demonstrate is that having a better I/O solution is worth having a weaker GPU/CPU.

 

[psorcerer]

So will open world games to be closer to linear games graphically?

They can be closer.

 

[RaySoft]

Ok. So let's put all the soothsayer predictions aside and watch for a real world example of superiority.

What game are the Sony gamers thinking will be the first representation of superior graphics due to having an SSD? Will it be a 3rd party game at all? Or only a first party game? I'm just trying to wait for THE game that is going to show off what many of you believe.

It will be a 1st party game ofc. And probably not the first wave of games even. Don't get me wrong, the first games will be jaw dropping, but the tech probably won't "mature" before the next wave of games.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why do threads like this upset people so much?

 

[Radical_3d]

At least in this thread nobody is dividing bandwidth first by 16 and then by 10 and then comparing the results.

 

[MasterCornholio]

At least in this thread nobody is dividing bandwidth first by 16 and then by 10 and then comparing the results.

Who is doing that?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

ps5 ssd is not going to make up for the loss of cu's and variance in clock speeds on the cpu and gpu .. its also nowhere near gddr6 levels of
speed so it cant be used as virtual memory ..

Neither system is using NAND on the SSDs as "essentially" virtual memory because the NAND speed is not fast enough to keep the CPU or GPU fed (even at compression rates, and if CPU or GPU want that data decompressed you'd still have to decompress it), and level of granularity of data on NAND is not to a level CPUs or GPUs would prefer for modification of that data in real-time (in most cases).

At least in this thread nobody is dividing bandwidth first by 16 and then by 10 and then comparing the results.

I don't see how that's ridiculous when we know one system has a unified pool meaning the bandwidth is saturated among its 16 GB physical memory and the other has a "split" (not split in the traditional sense) pool of 10 GB at one bandwidth and 6 GB at the other, which should be acknowledged when discussing technical merits on the systems

They can be closer.

All things being equal and rate of progression in tech utilization and techniques being equal...probably not. But, that's just a quickie hunch on my part.

Graphical fidelity, physics complexity, AI complexity etc. will continue to increase by leaps and bounds as next-gen gets underway, so you are probably still looking at a similar delta between open-world and linear games next-gen as this gen. However, the bar on both will increase dramatically so the delta between both types on a generational basis with the upcoming systems will appear smaller at least optically, to more untrained eye types.

 

[Radical_3d]

Who is doing that?

I don't see how that's ridiculous when we know one system has a unified pool meaning the bandwidth is saturated among its 16 GB physical memory and the other has a "split" (not split in the traditional sense) pool of 10 GB at one bandwidth and 6 GB at the other, which should be acknowledged when discussing technical merits on the systems

 

[MilkyJoe]

Jesus wept

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

I mean that you don't need extra GPU power to render better LoD levels. And you don't need extra RAM space and bandwidth to hold that extra detail.

Yes you do

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

If you kept reading instead of being sensitive over the title you'd probably see it was speculation to cover aspects of performance ratios that haven't been oft-mentioned regarding the next-gen systems. You know, stuff that probably will come into play in actual development, the weight of which however still open for discussion.

At least try not using eons-old meme gifs to substitute lack of an actual response.

 

[Vawn]

Damn, I'm excited for the PS5.

 

[psorcerer]

Yes you do

Why?

 

[MasterCornholio]

 

[Radical_3d]

Neither system is using NAND on the SSDs as "essentially" virtual memory because the NAND speed is not fast enough to keep the CPU or GPU fed (even at compression rates, and if CPU or GPU want that data decompressed you'd still have to decompress it), and level of granularity of data on NAND is not to a level CPUs or GPUs would prefer for modification of that data in real-time (in most cases).

Wouldn’t be incredible if someone has a video time stamped where Microsoft claims otherwise?

Like…

If you kept reading instead of being sensitive over the title you'd probably see it was speculation to cover aspects of performance ratios that haven't been oft-mentioned regarding the next-gen systems. You know, stuff that probably will come into play in actual development, the weight of which however still open for discussion.

At least try not using eons-old meme gifs to substitute lack of an actual response.

Here is an actual response: if the PS5 uses 5GB for a game the bandwidth per GB is way bigger than the SX using 10GB. But that is ridiculous. You have one bandwidth for all the system. Not just for 10GB. The 2.5 GB reserved must use the bandwidth. The 3.5 GB have to use it as well. And they don’t add up. SX doesn’t have 560 + 300something. It has a maximum of 560 and a minimum of 300something. You have to divide 560 between 16 to have a barely meaningful data to compare. Otherwise your math are wrong.