-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
NX Gamer PS5 full spec analysis - a new generation is born
- Thread starter it_wasn't_me
- Start date
- Spoilers
BruceWayneIII
Member
phil_t98
#SonyToo
what he talked about was corridor designed games, it was if open world games didn't already exist tbh.
Shmunter
Member
It’s like you can’t let your mind imagine an open world game, but with the detail of a cutscene in front of you wherever you look.
Picture it.
Psykodad
Banned
Even in open-world games there are a lot of tricks.
Just look at HZD for example, which is open world but has a lot of areas that are basically "corridors".
Most open-world games have these sections.
Last edited:
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
Still the same BS from you?SSD>TF - Mark Cerny
Seriously grow up, and that's coming from someone like me.
Wandering Leopard
Member
I don't think that was the point he was trying to make.
If you think about it, there are definitely more linear games Vs open world games.
He was talking about giving more freedom in game design to the many devs who want to continue creating more linear compact games. These Devs have been forced to use corridors/ elevators in game design to hide loading times when the player is moving to a new area.
Only certain Devs are equipped to make open world games, the budget is obviously higher. Cerny highlighted "fast travel" in open world games, which again, is used to mask loading times.
Last edited:
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Agree but then you have games like GTA and forza horizon 4 are true open world. Yeah they gonna look much much better next gen can’t wait
Psykodad
Banned
They also use the same tricks, probably just hiding it differently. Especially in urban environments.
Then there is also pop-up and all that.
If building the Project Ikelos demo in Dreams taught me one thing, it's the amount of tricks you can and need to apply when designing games.
And even though our project is on a much smaller scale and at an amateur level, I doubt the principles change for professional games.
Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding something about the design of the PS5 hardware, but I'm going to assume that a game like HZD 2 will be the perfect example of showing the benefits of PS5 vs XSX.
Last edited:
PocoJoe
Banned
GTA runs like shit + sometimes looks way too ugly.
Like when you fly around, you can see far away, but things like power lines and even the powerline towers have so low details that in certain weather/time of day they are almost invisible.
Driving around = laggy
I guess the point is that with next gen games made from ground up to use SSD = you can fly trough "gta" world without having to hit some random power tower because game could not load clear version of it, or see unclear low poly models.
Linear games have usually been the best looking, and open world games have been the ugliest.
So maybe SSD will erase the clear line between them.
Linear games can be more open if they want to, no need to use tricks to hide loading
Open games can be more pretty and detailed. Like have interiors for all buildings, no need to load when opening doors, have destructible buildings so you can see trough the holes and so on.
My dream would be GTA game with fully destructible world. Just imagine flying around with buzzard, shooting rockets and sky scrapers would crumble into the ground
Fulcizombie
Banned
We are at a point where youtubers and fans are actively speculating stuff (no Ram used for the OS !!!) that Cerny would have already announced, if they were true, as if we are actually in the period before the ps5 specs were released. Fascinating stuff and psychology.
Shmunter
Member
Only on PS5 (tm)Imagine... Pubg where the buildings actually load before you land. Heaven.
Psykodad
Banned
XSX will have 4k/120fps pop-up though.
I Love Rock 'n' Roll
Member
I understand why some say "it's the most impressive hardware in 20 years"
Putting to the max every aspects of the hardware and this SSD tech at the very heart of the console is REALLY IMPRESSIVE. I understand it like that: the SSD is the RAM were the game is and the PS5 its, let's say, Super FX. It is the opposite of XBOX, force power VS full speed (like the light).
AMD, SONY and Mark Cerny have changed the game industry with PS5.
Putting to the max every aspects of the hardware and this SSD tech at the very heart of the console is REALLY IMPRESSIVE. I understand it like that: the SSD is the RAM were the game is and the PS5 its, let's say, Super FX. It is the opposite of XBOX, force power VS full speed (like the light).
AMD, SONY and Mark Cerny have changed the game industry with PS5.
Fulcizombie
Banned
Do you even understand how much faster Ram is compared to the SSD ? Do people even understand what kind of BS they are trying to pass off as facts ? Really feels like the twilight zone....
Shmunter
Member
Do you even understand how much faster on chip cache is compared to the RAM ? Do people even understand what kind of BS they are trying to pass off as facts ? Really feels like the twilight zone....
Lol
See how that works, multiple layers of a storage subsystem, each one slower but larger.
Cache -> ram -> ssd
But the 3rd tier has finally seen an astronomical leap from the decades of platter based physical spin. All working in unison. Freedom!
Last edited:
Fulcizombie
Banned
O.k, keep waiting for the SSD to be the new Ram , the OS to be stored in there and every other piece of BS , insane stuff we have been seeing in the last few days.
Shmunter
Member
But what are you arguing against exactly? I’m sure you acknowledge that hard drives are used to store game assets and stream them to the ram for a long time now. The slowness has been a massive bottleneck because it’s fucking slow. If this becomes 100x faster, then surely it’s obvious it will have substantial effect?? Or not so obvious?
geordiemp
Member
The biggest suggestion from the video is most of the OS could be on SSD, and so more GB RAM for games.....
We dont know until more is revealed by sony.
I Love Rock 'n' Roll
Member
You should do better. Seriously.
Either you're a troll and should get ban, either you don't understand and not smart enough to get you should educate yourself, i would feel sorry for you.
Last edited:
Rolling_Start
Banned
I'm pretty confident you'll still want to keep some things in ram. Last minutes of recorded play, friends and comms, security stuff, buffers for overlays, software for sharing stuff to social media etc. It's not just about speed, it's also about using up writes to a flash drive that you can never replace.
I'm actually expecting a pretty similar 2~3GB of OS reserve for PS5. The SSD isn't that much faster than the XSX in terms of running a real time OS and I think MS have already squeezed the reserve back about as much as practical.
I'm actually expecting a pretty similar 2~3GB of OS reserve for PS5. The SSD isn't that much faster than the XSX in terms of running a real time OS and I think MS have already squeezed the reserve back about as much as practical.
Old Empire.
Member
Comments, people said its a Sony developer.? SSD is still only a hard drive,. It not going to change the fact Xbox series is more powerful.
Psykodad
Banned
I don't think anyone is claiming that the SSD is making PS5 equal in power.
Old Empire.
Member
Hope so? There are advantages to having a faster SSD, but its minimal advantage that most people will not care about. Sony will have less time loading screen, it may help with LOD pop in, other than that it not fix the power difference.
Shmunter
Member
Good point, forgot about the DVR functions. That probably needs a good chunk of ram reserve, just like today.
HawarMiran
Banned
But he didn't say thatSSD>TF - Mark Cerny
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
Is it hard to see for the Xfans that PS fans are exited for those features the will deliver? I think what i've seen so far from NXGamer, DF, and a lot of devs is it that the PS5 could really be something (more) interesting for them and players. The only thing i constantly read from you guys is bUt bUt 12tF.
Looks like there is not much to talk about the XSX instead of that number 12TF. I was personally hoping for more TF on the PS5, but what I've read so far from different devs, DF and NXGamer. It's kinda clear to me that the PS5 can be a better working and balanced console then the competition, what leads in on par performance.
Let's be happy that both will generate some amazing games for us.
Looks like there is not much to talk about the XSX instead of that number 12TF. I was personally hoping for more TF on the PS5, but what I've read so far from different devs, DF and NXGamer. It's kinda clear to me that the PS5 can be a better working and balanced console then the competition, what leads in on par performance.
Let's be happy that both will generate some amazing games for us.
There is a misconception I believe of the PS5's SSD advantage.
The PS5 / XBX will very rarely be doing tasks to utilise the whole 5GB/s SSD bandwidth. On PC you only ever see peak bandwidth when transferring / reading large files from one hard drive to another.
Whilst in a game most of the big assets will already be loaded. Accessing smaller assets and IOPS /second will very likely be similar and I cannot imagine any ground breaking differences between IOPS of SSD's built in the same year.
The PS5 / XBX will very rarely be doing tasks to utilise the whole 5GB/s SSD bandwidth. On PC you only ever see peak bandwidth when transferring / reading large files from one hard drive to another.
Whilst in a game most of the big assets will already be loaded. Accessing smaller assets and IOPS /second will very likely be similar and I cannot imagine any ground breaking differences between IOPS of SSD's built in the same year.
Last edited:
Psykodad
Banned
As far as I can tell, nobody is saying the SSD benefits will "fix" the power difference.
Cerny has been pretty clear in that the design goal of PS5 is to give freedom in the way developers design games.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Not really, he made an example with a game he actually helped develop as a programmer and designer, Jak II, which had a open world like city.
His point was that even today’s open world games you have areas where you are using tricks to hide loading times to swap assets: think doors to some buildings or dungeons in something like Skyrim or BotW’s temples.
Think of fast travel in open world games, but also think about the fact the speed you are allowed to traverse the world at is limited by the speed of your storage solution loading the new areas at and your max RAM pool (you can only keep so many game “cells/zones” in memory and stream then in and out as you roam about).
A much faster SSD and the software stack to make good use of it allows you to waste less RAM: in modern games you keep a lot of RAM to cover the area you are in and some of the areas nearby (bigger or smaller chunks depending on the complexity and variety of each area.. but again smaller chunks and more reliance of streaming may limit the speed you can roam about at).
In summary: the faster the storage/SSD to RAM channel is the less data you need to buffer in RAM... which means you can keep more unique data in RAM and have a richer scene.
Last edited:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
You would still be smart about packing the files and some of those may be allowed to grow bigger and thus make better use of the sequential reads speed increase, but it is likely that the random access reads speed (for very small items gathered from different places in the disk) is still going to be quite a bit higher than XBX’s solution and regular SSD’s and HDD’s (see the far more granular levels of priority and custom SSD controller they have built).
I think this still needs to be stressed: neither XSX nor PS5 are simple PC’s from either the HW point of view or, especially, the software/OS one. See DirectStorage and whatever name Sony have to their file management/storage I/O solution.
You also mentioned having larger files already in memory and kept permanently, while I think they are pushing developers not to do that and allow more and more of those large assets to be downloaded on demand. Let’s hope they publish the minimum chunk size to get full bandwidth out of the SSD, I doubt it is an impossibly large chunk and it then becomes a game of intelligent balance between RAM effective usage and SSD read speed utilisation.
Last edited:
CesarNsnake
Neo Member
Exactly! most reads fros both SSDs will never reach peak performance as it will be much slower and this will mitigate the difference. Somehow people are expecting all reads to be at 5.5/2.4 GBs/s which is only the sequential read top speed, but most reads will be random.
Also, the notion of running/storing the OS from the SSD is pretty ridiculous as latency is much higher in an SSD than RAM, Dictator from DF already dismissed it in a similar thread in Resetera so I dont buy it...
Even having one part in the kernel and another suspended in the SSD would be impossible as the OS dedicated RAM is already optimized and used constantly while in-game for OS background tasks.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
You can tell devs that a portion of RAM is marked as transient and it is backed up to SSD every time you pause the game and go back to the OS where the bulk of heavy data the OS needs to load is swapped in. This does not mean 0 MB of RAM used by the OS, you are exaggerating the position stated here IMHO.
Random reads on both XSX and PS5 (both are banking on the SSD to help them to essentially “expand” RAM) will likely be faster than on the old HDD and likely PC SSD of today and with a I/O API that will allow you to make the most of what these custom solutions can offer (these puppies are quite custom software + HW solutions, especially the PS5 one to be fair).
Also, I do expect console games to be more optimised layout wise than typical PC games that can now rely on far more RAM + VRAM.
MadchesterManc
Member
It's kinda funny hearing all this talk of streaming data due to this large throughput on the Ps5, reminds me a lot of the discussions around the Ps2 back in the day. A lot of talk back then, aside from the VU, was centered around the 2560-bit bus giving the eDram 48GB/s bandwidth which would allow for developers to stream data into and out of the framebuffer instead of storing it. No idea if anyone actually figured that out but it's a possibility given the improvements that system had over the generation. Not saying the Ps5 will see the same improvements, but I guess that's what makes for interesting discussions regarding the new systems.
Fulcizombie
Banned
I am arguing that we have entered another round of weird speculation over the benefits of a fast SSD. Now we are at a point where the OS will be stored at the SSD , leaving all the Ram available for games, (even though Cerny never even implied this) and that a faster SSD will generally be used as extra RAM. I honestly can’t even argue such theories, it is like we are back at 13.3 TF/16 GB HBM2 memory ps5.
As far as the video goes , firstly the tone it uses is clearly propagandistic (Sony made the ps5 for developers, while the biggest software company in the world had no input from developers I guess) and the fact that the OFFICIAL Sony spec sheet uses the word «variable» next to its GPU&CPU clock speeds while this video uses the word «actuals». The Leaps of faith the video also takes when describing the RAM set ups is something to behold too.
Last edited:
Shmunter
Member
Yeah annnnd? It’s speculation, it has to be, the systems aren’t here yet. This is a discussion forum???
You’re Jamaicanmecrazy!!!
Fulcizombie
Banned
I thought we were past the point of speculation, the specs are out there ...well mostly (Cerny didn’t say a word about how much RAM the ps5 OS will take)
Things look crystal clear to me.
Shmunter
Member
Congratulations, you have a superpower
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
Has there ever been a graphics card from the same released in the same generation (not sure if you call PC cards generation) eg Nvidia 960 v 970 v 980 or Amd 560 v 570 v 580 etc where the lower TF card has outperformed the higher TF card ?
Last edited:
Fulcizombie
Banned
Just common sense, exactly how I was writing that the bs info by bs insiders about a super powerful 13+ tf PS5 was just that....bs, and I had no problem to get banned for that and for exposing people like Osirisblack and tommy Fischer.
All you need is common sense really, yes the faster SSD will do some cool things (not outlandish ones like acting like RAM) but the ps5 has some serious issues, biggest of all the variable clock speeds.
Last edited:
NXGamer
Member
Yes, the TNT2 M64 was on paper faster than other cards but it was limited by its bandwidth outside of 16-bit depth.
The Voodoo cards regulary outperformed better cards due the much better Glide API.
Also a GPU can be limited by the CPU that instructs it, or the RAM it has or the HD it runs on. A system is MUCH more than a GPU alone.
Fulcizombie
Banned
Thankfully the XSX has a great CPU and ultra fast Ram for the majority of the Ram available to games (and even the 3.5 slower GB of Ram are no slouch).
Insane Metal
Member
I'm watching it's quite fascinating, actually. He says the X is going to get higher resolutions, there's no doubt about that. BUT on the ps5 Cerny seems to have taken a lot of measures to avoid all kinds of bottlenecks and he even says the RAM on PS5 should work better than the X solution.
NXGamer
Member
Sorry, you are absolutely right, I done goofedAll the posts positively discussing your analysis and you chose to reply to the town dunce. Common son, get with the plan!
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
Is there anyway you can make a video where you could gimp one machine with the better gpu to another machine with the less powerful gpu and see how they compare.
I know you can't do it exactly as there are no cards out with RDNA2 etc, its hard for me to explain as i'm no techie but for example situation where you can make a 5700 outperform a 5700xt.
P.s keep up the good work with the videos.
Last edited:
Humdinger
Member
Just watched the video. Thank you for linking it, OP. Very interesting. I'm not technically minded, so a lot of it went over my head (e.g., when he talked about the OS and RAM), but I did glean a few things:
- He says that there's a 15% GPU deficit, but potentially a 130% improvement on throughput into the system via the SSD. I'm not sure how that'll work out, but it sounds like it could go some distance to closing the TF gap.
- He says the TF difference will likely only be used for resolution/pixels (he's discussing 3rd party devs), not in other ways. He says the 40% gap this gen was not a big deal, and a 15% difference this gen should be even less of one. That's a significant point to me. I can hardly notice most of the differences being pointed to this gen. I doubt I'll notice a 15% difference next gen.
- He says the PS5 is "able to push more around the system and stream data in and out of RAM quicker, which takes the load off the CPU and helps it do more."
- The PS5 is "collectively more about the the ability to push game design" (he's talking about first party, potentially some third).
This all good news. I'm glad we have some people able to explain the nuances of this. It's so much easier to just latch onto a single TF number. I'm getting the sense that Sony's design is a more subtle one, rather than just brute force.
- He says that there's a 15% GPU deficit, but potentially a 130% improvement on throughput into the system via the SSD. I'm not sure how that'll work out, but it sounds like it could go some distance to closing the TF gap.
- He says the TF difference will likely only be used for resolution/pixels (he's discussing 3rd party devs), not in other ways. He says the 40% gap this gen was not a big deal, and a 15% difference this gen should be even less of one. That's a significant point to me. I can hardly notice most of the differences being pointed to this gen. I doubt I'll notice a 15% difference next gen.
- He says the PS5 is "able to push more around the system and stream data in and out of RAM quicker, which takes the load off the CPU and helps it do more."
- The PS5 is "collectively more about the the ability to push game design" (he's talking about first party, potentially some third).
This all good news. I'm glad we have some people able to explain the nuances of this. It's so much easier to just latch onto a single TF number. I'm getting the sense that Sony's design is a more subtle one, rather than just brute force.
Last edited:
Fulcizombie
Banned
How are things like variable clock speeds in a console a more subtle design ? What exactly is more subtle in the ps5, the XSX is a beast in everything.
Similar threads
- Locked