We don't jump when people ask us to jump. Processes take time, and there are quite of few of us from around the world dealing with this damned COVID global pandemic. Have some perspective, just a little bit of it will go a long ways.
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We don't jump when people ask us to jump. Processes take time, and there are quite of few of us from around the world dealing with this damned COVID global pandemic. Have some perspective, just a little bit of it will go a long ways.
T-I-N-M-A-N dX
Member
But why wouldn’t you just buy the better console for $50 more?
exstuhsey
Banned
Yeah this is my decision too, I still have my PC with me plus I think the PS4 still has a few years left anyways.
M-V2
Member
Just last thing I would say, if the ps5 preforming a bit better or on par with the SX or very close that your barely see a difference then don't yell at devs that they're lazy & they don't optimize their games etc, yell at yourself because digital foundry & devs told you Teraflops aren't the measurement of performance.
Reindeer
Member
Hardly a fair point as that's just developers being lazy and not utilising Xbox to full potential because most of the users are on PS4 and it makes no sense for them to use extra resources to make Xbox version better. Here we are talking about raw power and not what the developers will choose to do.
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Can't you just frost axe the fucking thing away?
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Amazing 1 single room with 16GB of assets, luckily the size of these SSD's are apparently 100TB because games will be at least 5TB's big.
FranXico
Member
I'm predicting that eventually there will be third party games that don't even use RT on the PS5 version.
CJY
Banned
I don't know how old you are, but you are really starting to sound like that withering old man shouting at the cloud.
Fake
Member
I mean, 2020 is the year of PS4 and if PS5 will not run all PS4 games, so why waste money? Not saying I not be there, but for the first consumers like me with get the product day one I have less reason to get PS5 day one now. The way Cerny spoke, is more like a beta test waiting PS4 library to get add to PS5 rather than a native BC.
If you watched that boring presentation from yesterday, Cerny was very clear devs could opt for not use RT with IMO is a a bit concerning.
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Its limited by how many cores you can fit and the clock they run at, increasing the core clock on RDNA2 will increase raytracing performance. If you had a higher TFLOPS with lower CU counts theres a good chance the RT performance would be higher then more CUs and less clocks. The difference will be 10~20% just like the other factors.
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The Mad Draklor
Member
The gap isn't large enough to make such a large difference visually. For multiplats, the PS5 version can run 75% the resolution of the XB1 version with Radeon Image Sharpening and it will look identical, if not very very close.
Reindeer
Member
Ag
You can clock RTX 2080 (for example) high but it still will not be performing on the same level as 2080TI. This is just common knowledge. The fact that people agreed with your statement about comparing teraflops across different architectures shows how much ignorance there is in this thread, no wonder they have a problem with what I'm saying.
Rolling_Start
Banned
Bandwidth is possibly going to be a limiter with raytracing heavy games. Bandwidth could grant the XSX a 25% or greater advantage.
Bandwidth was the Pro's Achilles Heel, and to a lesser extent it may be for the PS5 too.
Bandwidth was the Pro's Achilles Heel, and to a lesser extent it may be for the PS5 too.
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Reindeer
Member
No. If it's physical cores than it will be limited by the size of the die just like on RTX cards. Bigger the die the more cores you can fit.
Handy Fake
Member
M-V2
Member
If you're ignoring what devs are choosing to do, then why talking about raw power?? If the PS5 sold way better than the SX & the devs chose to optimize their games on the PS5 then what's the benefit of raw power?? Lol
Don't we all wish.
Those cores run at a clock. You increase the clock you increase the performance, just like everything in a CU. If you are suggesting that a higher clock wont increase the performance you severely misunderstand what's going on.
I am talking about the AMD solution of which we have detailed knowledge of from the patent btw.
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llien
Member
100% => PS5, 10-ish TF
X% => XSeX, 12 TF
X = 120%
Yeah, 13TF team is saying so, they can't be wrong.
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Shmunter
Member
Bro, taking an example literally is on you, no one else to blame.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Cmon now, he's cleary saying something else. He said you can't close the gap with just clocks, not that you can't improve performance with it. Now, let's not be dense about basic language understanding.
David Ricardo
Member
At this moment I don't know what the fuck was going through Cernys mind when he designed this piece of shit. It is not power efficient (2% lower clocks saves 10% power), it is not as powerful as a lower clocked device with more CUs, it even isn't fully backwards compatible...Before the ps5 unveiling : no way the ps5 is 36 cu clocked at insane speeds, Cerny would never do that, he is great.
After the ps5 unveling: 36 CU at variable clock speeds, that’s amazing because.....read what Cerny said.
PaintTinJr
Member
I don’t think he understood the PS5 tech reveal because the SSD is not the driver behind removing developer bottlenecks with memory speed, or the unbelievable redundancy in memory, HDD redundancy and blu-ray storage redundancy. The I/O complex is the real next-gen feature (IMHO) and even if the worst case of compute is 9.2TF versus 12TF the I/O complex combined with unified high bandwidth memory using the ssd is going to be the bigger game changer because of the orders of magnitude bottlenecks it fixes. The raw benefits of the /IO complex are also transparent to the developer, so every middleware made game will get this benefit for free with no effort needed by the developer.
I speculate that the XsX developers will inevitably hit up against those bottlenecks quickly - that they didn't mention fixing in the XsX - when the average dev is using 6-10GBs of PS5 GDDR6 per viewpoint versus 4GB-6GB for the whole area data on XsX(maybe just 3GBs per viewport), which will then result in them either colliding with memory access patterns across the whole 13.5GB forcing the average bandwidth down towards 336GB/s, or they will be limited to 10GB, pushing the whole area size memory down towards 3-5GB and data starving the GPU – making the ability to keep those 52CUs busy even harder. That also doesn’t account for the GPU cache scrubbers on the PS5, that without would have stalls/stuttering when flushing large areas of the ram – something which I suspect will require further care on the XsX.
XsX looks great, but the engineering on the custom PS5 features look amazing (IMHO) and only the lack of info on RT bothered me. I’m hoping that’s because AMD are planning on releasing a new RT version 2 product soon that is closer to PS5 RT cores, and Sony have agreed not to steal their thunder.
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Reindeer
Member
Our discussion was about power and not developers. The vast majority of third party games still look and play better on X, it's just a few examples where Pro wins. More power matters when it comes to third party even if there are few devs that won't utilise more powerful hardware.
Xiung Wang Wei
Neo Member
Yes but the Xbox will have a better framerate (+10fps) and possibly a better resolution ingame
nowadays these 2 elements are so important, even in the consoles market
The Mad Draklor
Member
Great job not addressing my rebuttals. I guess if you can't make a good counterargument, repeat the same assertion again and again.
Not to mention, the RTX 2080 has 8GB of VRAM on a 256-bit bus while the 2080Ti has 11GB of VRAM on a 352-bit bus, so you're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. You not paying attention to the fine details has become a common theme.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Here's my two cents on this whole PS5 thing.
(Man, working from home due to corona, it's like all the emails stopped too. lol)
Insiders
- I don't give a shit about insiders, and none of you should have too, but it's still fun to read and participate. I understand github leaks being outdated could mean nothing, but as you can see they were basically spot on except for those dataminers missing an entry about a gpu boost
- Whatever reason for most of the insiders being way off could be due to many reasons, but whatever. Insiders who know nothing tagged on as follow the leader. True insiders couldn't tell gamers PS5 was 9.2 and boosted to 10tf or else they'd get killed for the past year. So 12-13tf rumours had to persist to save face
- At least give respect for the ones who manned up and stuck around. As for the ones who tried to convince you all they are gaming gurus and disappeared, F em. Most of them bailed. As for pure trollers, what can I tell you? They did it purely for fun
PS5 Specs
- No doubt this reveal churned out some weak specs vs SeX, aside from the crazy SSD they put in. All that 3D audio is a non-issue because SeX also has 3D audio
- I don't know if their big focus on this was purely intentional or a head fake to downplay the weaker specs, but that's what it is. But it sure seemed genuine Cerny loved talking SSD and 3D audio with a grin on his face, so maybe PS R&D really do think those are the next priorities in gaming hardware
- There have been rumours PS5 was supposed to be a 2019 system but they delayed it for whatever reason...... I've heard anything from they wanted to wait until LoU2 and Ghosts come out, to the hardware not ready yet, to PS4 was still trucking along so don't rock the boat yet. Maybe these are true
- And if they are (they do sound plausible to me), a 10tf system in 2019 would have been better appreciated than now when SeX is 12tf
- Personally I'm not surprised at weaker specs, simply due to PS4 be a more mainstream system selling across way more people and countries. A $400 system seems to be a nice price that was super successful for PS4. Pro was $400 too. You can see the chaos and gimped sales anytime a console maker tries a $500+ price...... PS3, Xbox with Kinect, I don't think Xbox X sold like gangbusters either. No matter how strong the brand is, console gaming sure seems wedged in that $300-400 range and that's what it is. You can make a console $600 with 24gb ram and an Nvidia 3080, and I bet it still sells shit. The value is there, but console gaming has this concrete price block that is hard to break
- I think PS5 will sell for $400 due to this. It may go higher, but when PS is mainstream and Jim Ryan last year said he wants PS4 gamers to smoothly transition to new hardware, he isn't talking transitioning your digital downloads to PS5. He's talking buying a PS5 for a good price
- As for sales, and first party games, they will be top notch. No doubt give a Sony studio a system that's 5x PS4 power and it'll churn out good games. And hardware sales will likely be #1 again
(Man, working from home due to corona, it's like all the emails stopped too. lol)
Insiders
- I don't give a shit about insiders, and none of you should have too, but it's still fun to read and participate. I understand github leaks being outdated could mean nothing, but as you can see they were basically spot on except for those dataminers missing an entry about a gpu boost
- Whatever reason for most of the insiders being way off could be due to many reasons, but whatever. Insiders who know nothing tagged on as follow the leader. True insiders couldn't tell gamers PS5 was 9.2 and boosted to 10tf or else they'd get killed for the past year. So 12-13tf rumours had to persist to save face
- At least give respect for the ones who manned up and stuck around. As for the ones who tried to convince you all they are gaming gurus and disappeared, F em. Most of them bailed. As for pure trollers, what can I tell you? They did it purely for fun
PS5 Specs
- No doubt this reveal churned out some weak specs vs SeX, aside from the crazy SSD they put in. All that 3D audio is a non-issue because SeX also has 3D audio
- I don't know if their big focus on this was purely intentional or a head fake to downplay the weaker specs, but that's what it is. But it sure seemed genuine Cerny loved talking SSD and 3D audio with a grin on his face, so maybe PS R&D really do think those are the next priorities in gaming hardware
- There have been rumours PS5 was supposed to be a 2019 system but they delayed it for whatever reason...... I've heard anything from they wanted to wait until LoU2 and Ghosts come out, to the hardware not ready yet, to PS4 was still trucking along so don't rock the boat yet. Maybe these are true
- And if they are (they do sound plausible to me), a 10tf system in 2019 would have been better appreciated than now when SeX is 12tf
- Personally I'm not surprised at weaker specs, simply due to PS4 be a more mainstream system selling across way more people and countries. A $400 system seems to be a nice price that was super successful for PS4. Pro was $400 too. You can see the chaos and gimped sales anytime a console maker tries a $500+ price...... PS3, Xbox with Kinect, I don't think Xbox X sold like gangbusters either. No matter how strong the brand is, console gaming sure seems wedged in that $300-400 range and that's what it is. You can make a console $600 with 24gb ram and an Nvidia 3080, and I bet it still sells shit. The value is there, but console gaming has this concrete price block that is hard to break
- I think PS5 will sell for $400 due to this. It may go higher, but when PS is mainstream and Jim Ryan last year said he wants PS4 gamers to smoothly transition to new hardware, he isn't talking transitioning your digital downloads to PS5. He's talking buying a PS5 for a good price
- As for sales, and first party games, they will be top notch. No doubt give a Sony studio a system that's 5x PS4 power and it'll churn out good games. And hardware sales will likely be #1 again
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16% better when PS5 can boost - yes. On average it can be 20-25% difference in total power. (CPU, memory bandwidth, GPU).
When you also factor the increased CU count anything massively parallelizable (Raytracing for example) will gain even more.
This is how PS4 won over Xbox One.
PS4 was cheaper and better (since Xbox One had the Kinect) and MS made some dumb decision before the console was released. Things started tipping over to Sony - all they had to do was to lean and lean and lean and it started to tip more and more to Sonys favour.
It was STILL pretty even the first months sales wise. Xbox One even surpassed Sony momentarily when they ditched the Kinect and dropped the price.
This time they made it clear they will not be behind in power (proven - they are quite a bit ahead) and they would not be behind in price (to be seen). Also - they have not made any stupid moves and now they have Xbox Gamepass.
Things could go very different this time.
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DaGwaphics
Member
We should all just be glad that both machines seem capable. It's obvious that resources were allocated differently, that will make comparisons more fun. At least we have two different boxes, there was some thought that we'd get basically the same console from both. It's up to the 1st parties to display their strengths in ways that have the most impact on the end-users, with 3rd parties we'll see what balance they strike in best utilizing the new tech while maintaining compatibility with the plethora of targets that they need to hit. PS5 looks to be in great position to me, if you can be a $100 cheaper and keep step or even surpass your rival that is $100 more, that's incredible no matter what tech was used to pull it off. But Xbox fans should be elated as well, it's a lot better to be $100 more and on par than it is to be $100 more and 50% behind right?
FranXico
Member
Not likely. It's just because the PS5 is CU starved and RT will kill performance there.
K.N.W.
Member
Actually, he said he is getting optimistic, he saw complex scenes in a game running with full RT reflections and only minimum impact on performance.
What conference did you watch??
Reindeer
Member
For example, you can overclock 4 core CPU, but it will still not be able to do the same workload as 6 or 8 core CPU. You won't cut down the difference by much. Plus having less RT is different because of how much they impact the performance.
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D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
My point was less about 1 room having 16GB of assets, and more about rooms/sceneries never having that much information so the SSD difference won't be noticed.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
If both versions are capped at 60 and optimized to never go down that cap, SeX running at 75 and PS5 at 65 wont make a difference. Maybe you will see some more drops on PS5, but what about patches?
It's not nearly the same like saying PS5 is 50 fps and SeX 60 all the time.
Resolution will likely be better, yes. But if the target is 60 they can hit it all the time on both at this point, with relatively small resolutions differences.
Neo Blaster
Member
The reason you wouldn't get a PS5 day one is because it won't play all games that you can play right now on your PS4? And I thought the main selling point were next gen games...
I don't remember MS making RT mandatory on XSX.
thelastword
Banned
It's not so cut and dry this time, we shall see......Eventually the XBONEX assumed the same design as PS4 with the type of memory minus the EDRAM setup, basically same GPU and CPU upclocked, this time not only is the difference not 40%, it's only 17% but the PS5 17% down in TFLOPs has lots more custom silicon to mitigate raw TFLOPS and CPU/GPU loads and has an orders of magnitude faster SSD tech, that is going to count in realtime and be counted...
geordiemp
Member
I am predicting that most poeple would rather turn the ray tracing off and have prebaked HDR at 4k60 rather than run ray tracing at 1080p or 1440p.
It will be expensive for both consoles not just Ps5.
Shmunter
Member
Where were you when Sony were designing their flagship SSD solution? Oh well it’s to late now.
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Neo Blaster
Member
The Mad Draklor
Member
Show the benchmarks. Here's what I found.
2080Ti has a +15% effective game eFPS over the 2080. When overclocking the 2080 by 110 Mhz, average FPS improved by 11%. And you also have to take into account that the 2080Ti has 11GB of VRAM on a 352-bit bus while the 2080 only has 8GB of VRAM on a 256-bit bus.
Reindeer
Member
Says someone who is using PS5 boost clock as a form of measurement while conveniently ignoring the fact that PS5 will not function at those boost clocks most of the time.
Agnostic2020
Member
Ps5 is 15.1 % weaker or xsx is 17.7% stronger in gpu power(both correct ways to say):
12.1-10.28/12.1 =15.1% weaker
Or similarly
12.1-10.28/10.28= 17.7% stronger
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The Mad Draklor
Member
Says someone who does not provide any citations and is incapable of directly addressing rebuttals.
Bladed Thesis
Member
Replace PS5 with Xbox One and change your computer date to 2013.I hope we can have a dedicate PS5 thread so we can discuss all the new PS5 features/specs without having an ongoing drama with people trying to downplay its tech every time somebody dares to post something good about PS5
You just time traveled.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I prefer the 15% because it gets closer to the within 10% I have been saying all along
Reindeer
Member
And the overclocked PS5 GPU is still 15% slower than Series X GPU in the best case scenario, so I'm not sure what your point is.
Ultradsa
Member
I'm personally pleased with what was shown on PS5, I wouldn't doubt that PS5's ssd tech is orders of magnitude faster then anything PC or xbox for years to come, it was fascinating to hear that even if you add a faster (7gbs) drive, the ps5's ssd tech will handle whats missing on the nvme. That tells me that it's a 5.5 gbs drive that generally performs at 5.5 gbs.
- The decompression tech is also huge, if I heard that right it would take over 8 zen 2 cores to do what that custom chip does. I'm going to look into this more as it sounds like with this insane realtime decryption, the PS5's SSD size and bandwidth can multiply another 10 times? Can't wait for testing on this subject.
- The 3d audio tech is mega huge, this will be hundreds of times better then Dolby atmos and be the biggest jump in 3d audio anywhere. I can't wait to try this out.
- I can't wait for performance testing, with all the offloaded tasks and co-processor tech Sony has will 10 teraflop perform at or near 12 TF? This will be so interesting to see.
I'll be getting PS5 day one and if it wasn't for xbox not making any nextgen only games for 2 years I would get that day 1 also. If xbox goes all out with halo and uses all nextgen power in halo with some patch I will consider it. The mincraft has my attention as of now. Just my thoughts on the PS5 info in general.
- The decompression tech is also huge, if I heard that right it would take over 8 zen 2 cores to do what that custom chip does. I'm going to look into this more as it sounds like with this insane realtime decryption, the PS5's SSD size and bandwidth can multiply another 10 times? Can't wait for testing on this subject.
- The 3d audio tech is mega huge, this will be hundreds of times better then Dolby atmos and be the biggest jump in 3d audio anywhere. I can't wait to try this out.
- I can't wait for performance testing, with all the offloaded tasks and co-processor tech Sony has will 10 teraflop perform at or near 12 TF? This will be so interesting to see.
I'll be getting PS5 day one and if it wasn't for xbox not making any nextgen only games for 2 years I would get that day 1 also. If xbox goes all out with halo and uses all nextgen power in halo with some patch I will consider it. The mincraft has my attention as of now. Just my thoughts on the PS5 info in general.
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