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[The Mad Draklor]

Nevermind, misread.

Nah, you kinda had a fair point. I should've at least put a timestamp on the video.

 

[Shio]

No offense but this "load stuff as you turn round" is becoming a meme and it's going to bite on the ass. Try taking 1 (virtual) step back and to the left in the scene he just described - now both assets are in close view .. and you don't have the memory to do it .. this isn't going to work.

When developing an engine you never just have data for everything in the immediate view exactly, you always account for a little extra, so if your view is 20% of the scene then you also load in and account for a bit to the left/right/top/bottom etc, so it's not like you are running to load every time you move a little left/right etc. The reason turning around is mentioned so much is that, that motion takes time, like at least 0.5 seconds which is enough time to load over 2GB of data into memory ready to be used. So yes this is not good for things in the immediate view which you need to have in RAM already, but this is awesome for things you nearly need, as in 0.5 seconds, like turning around or after jumping, or diving into water where the animation lasts more than 0.5 seconds. There are so many situations i can think of where the animation itself lasts over 0.5 seconds, which would be enough to stream high quality assets in. What this means is that this dynamic streaming data doesn't need to be sitting in RAM all the time and instead the RAM can be used to add more detail to things in the immediate view. Imagine a stadium filled with people, if you fill up the stadium all at once, you will need a lot of people, this will take people and time for all the people to fill up the seats, then as you move the camera around to see all the people. Now image you only have enough people to fill the camera view, as you move the camera more people run in and fill the empty seats just off the camera view and people which have moved off camera leave the stadium. What this means is you can achieve the same effect with much less people. Now imagine if each person had a cost, the fewer the people the more lower the cost and thus the more you can spend from your fixed budget on each person.

 

[Okami Haundo]

I'm at the point where I really can't wait to see what kind of box Sony squeezes the PS5 internals into. I'm expecting at least a PS4-Pro sized box, if not a bit bigger.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Cerny specified both the CPU and GPU would run max clocks most of the time. Video timestamp around 37 min.

This quote would give the idea how things work :


New Switch mod delivers real-time CPU, GPU and thermal monitoring - and the results are remarkable

Cerny also said 10% drop in power can be achieved by 2% drop in clock speed. That's not 10% drop in performance.

Yeah, we will see. He was put in a hard position trying to play up what strengths they had. Not a lot of time was spent on the gpu in his talk which was deliberate. I have mostly been an xbox first guy and picked up a ps4 and psvr late in its life. For the first time I was entertaining going ps5 first and xsx later as I'm really intrigued by VR and I already own a Xone X. I am shocked that I got the same vibes from Mark Cerny as I did from team xbox back in 2013, which is save face mode.

As I say this I was glad to see alot of forum bullies put in place by the info. All those github believers were utterly trashed on here.

 

[Shmunter]

I am a Sony fan first and coming from a PS gamer I can say I can't wait to play games on the PS5.

That said their approach does concern me especially over time.

To me it felt like a knee jerk reaction to the XsX being 12 tfs and they had to do whatever they could to reach double digits.

Don’t worry, that power management that can be harnessed in whichever direction the developer wants is smart. All consoles will do it eventually.

Baseline power notwithstanding.

 

[Rudius]

real world most games (especially 3rd party) will be using 9.2 tflops, rather than maxing out the boost clocks constantly. so you are looking more at a 31-32% difference in just gpu. Then you have to factor in the extra cpu clocks of the xsx and the 44% more ray tracing capabilities.

you are realistically looking at noticeable difference in resolution, frame rate, and ray tracing quality.

but the ps5 will load the game a fraction of a second faster...

Remember this post at the end of the year. I say we will see about a 10% resolution difference between both.

 

[44alltheway]

Knock off your backseat moderating, right now.

Everyone else, push the limits and thread and account bans will be issued instantly.

Act like we're playing.

I think a lot of the issues people have are justified. What about that screenshot OsirisBlack sent you? Was that real? Were any of these insiders actually vetted?

 

[Handy Fake]

When developing an engine you never just have data for everything in the immediate view exactly, you always account for a little extra, so if your view is 20% of the scene then you also load in and account for a bit to the left/right/top/bottom etc, so it's not like you are running to load every time you move a little left/right etc. The reason turning around is mentioned so much is that, that motion takes time, like at least 0.5 seconds which is enough time to load over 2GB of data into memory ready to be used. So yes this is not good for things in the immediate view which you need to have in RAM already, but this is awesome for things you nearly need, as in 0.5 seconds, like turning around or after jumping, or diving into water where the animation lasts more than 0.5 seconds. There are so many situations i can think of where the animation itself lasts over 0.5 seconds, which would be enough to stream high quality assets in. What this means is that this dynamic streaming data doesn't need to be sitting in RAM all the time and instead the RAM can be used to add more detail to things in the immediate view. Imagine a stadium filled with people, if you fill up the stadium all at once, you will need a lot of people, this will take people and time for all the people to fill up the seats, then as you move the camera around to see all the people. Now image you only have enough people to fill the camera view, as you move the camera more people run in and fill the empty seats just off the camera view and people which have moved off camera leave the stadium. What this means is you can achieve the same effect with much less people. Now imagine if each person had a cost, the fewer the people the more lower the cost and thus the more you can spend from your fixed budget on each person.

Cerny went into this, aye. Something like at the minute games have to load in something like 30 seconds around the player in advance for all eventualities whereas with the solution they're implementing it's less than a second in advance. Was something along those lines.

 

[Agnostic2020]

I think a lot of the issues people have are justified. What about that screenshot OsirisBlack sent you? Was that real? Were any of these insiders actually vetted?

Yea
OsirisBlack you said you have videos of you playing the games and how devs were saying both are hitting 4k 90 locked. Are those real or just forum talks ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Also, does anyone have any idea when we might get some game info/demos that are actually optimized for the new platforms?

 

[Kampfradler]

for me sony has already lost next gen;
xbox is faster in every category except the ssd. so you have to wait 10 seconds and not 5 to load a game. lol
sony please release all of you exclusives on pc so that ps5 is obsolete. thx

 

[Fake]

for me sony has already lost next gen;
xbox is faster in every category except the ssd. so you have to wait 10 seconds and not 5 to load a game. lol
sony please release all of you exclusives on pc so that ps5 is obsolete. thx

Is too early to confirm this. Games still speak more loud.

 

[Smoke6]

I'm not downplaying playing, I'm just stating facts, 15-20% difference in power at best for PS5. And I'm also replying to people who live in fantasy world and believe that SSD is somewhat gonna be replacing that GPU and CPU difference. Some folks here are in denial about certain things after their expectations were much higher.

Prove it then!

i haven’t seen one credible person come out and say the shit you’re spewing! Comes off as if you’re upset MS didnt think of this first and implement it!

 

[Ph0enixes]

for me sony has already lost next gen;
xbox is faster in every category except the ssd. so you have to wait 10 seconds and not 5 to load a game. lol
sony please release all of you exclusives on pc so that ps5 is obsolete. thx

Ok. Thanks for leting us know.

 

[Smoke6]

for me sony has already lost next gen;
xbox is faster in every category except the ssd. so you have to wait 10 seconds and not 5 to load a game. lol
sony please release all of you exclusives on pc so that ps5 is obsolete. thx

Quoting for games reveal that’s coming day and date and launch window for PS5 as compared to the almost 2 year wait for xsx

 

[Neo Blaster]

That would apply had 10.3 not been "up to".

Actually, it's 36 x 64 x 2 x 2250 = 10368000, correctly rounding it would be 10.4.

 

[Handy Fake]

for me sony has already lost next gen;
xbox is faster in every category except the ssd. so you have to wait 10 seconds and not 5 to load a game. lol
sony please release all of you exclusives on pc so that ps5 is obsolete. thx

There it is again. Fundamental lack of knowledge. ("lol")

 

[Reindeer]

Prove it then!

i haven’t seen one credible person come out and say the shit you’re spewing! Comes off as if you’re upset MS didnt think of this first and implement it!

SMH. I'm gonna ignore your comment as ignorance. It's not that Microsoft didn't think of it first or that Sony thought of it first, it's the fact that a bigger APU just costs more money so it made sense to go for faster SSD and overclock GPU to make up some of the difference. An no, you genius, I'm not the only one saying this, plenty people already touched up on this. And I have every right to criticise Sony hardware, I'm sorry it hurts your feelings.

 

[ethomaz]

Actually, it's 36 x 64 x 2 x 2250 = 10368000, correctly rounding it would be 10.4.

The clock is 2230Mhz.
‭10275840‬

Round to 10.3TFs.

 

[CJY]

Supporters of Xbox and PS alike should probably go and watch and listen to Cerny talk about the PS5 again with a new set of expectations and with an open mind. The stuff he is talking about is absolutely mind blowing.

I was as disappointed as everyone else because I expected something totally different yesterday, but today, upon rewatching, I'm properly stoked about the potential of PS5.

The SSD really is the game-changer and anybody who says it'll only improve load times needs their head checked.

 

[Crimson_Fate]

I could actually live with the TF #. I just have no confidence in the longevity of a GPU running at those frequencies and that SSD size is a joke.. Speed be dammed I would have been happier with a 1TB standard SSD

I might dip my toes in when the box drops to $299 or they release the PRO verison but for now I am going to just stick with the PS4.

 

[Handy Fake]

Supporters of Xbox and PS alike should probably go and watch and listen to Cerny talk about the PS5 again with a new set of expectations and with an open mind. The stuff he is talking about is absolutely mind blowing.

I was as disappointed as everyone else because I expected something totally different yesterday, but today, upon rewatching, I'm properly stoked about the potential of PS5.

The SSD really is the game-changer and anybody who says it'll only improve load times needs their head checked.

Exactly this. I think everyone was on tenterhooks for the raw teraflop reveal but that almost passed me by with everything else that was going on. It's shaping up to be a really interesting bit of kit.

 

[Smoke6]

At this moment I don't know what the fuck was going through Cernys mind when he designed this piece of shit. It is not power efficient (2% lower clocks saves 10% power), it is not as powerful as a lower clocked device with more CUs, it even isn't fully backwards compatible...

Neither was the xone!

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Prove it then!

i haven’t seen one credible person come out and say the shit you’re spewing! Comes off as if you’re upset MS didnt think of this first and implement it!

You're talking to someone who thinks an overclocked 2080 is "comfortably behind" a stock 2080Ti. And this is after he was shown with benchmarks, an overclocked 2080's game performance is 96.5% of that of that of a stock 2080Ti.

 

[Rudius]

That gulf ?do you mean gulf in power ? Man its just 17% . Right now x1x has 45% advantage over pro. Or ps4 has 41% advantage over x1.this is closest 2 console have ever been

Also, the difference between PS4 and Xone or Pro and X not only is greater than 40%, but also the memory speed is significantly higher, more than doble on the base consoles in favor of the PS4.

 

[Apollo Helios]

This is one of those instances i wish they had some kind of demo to show like this is what it looks like using 16GB assets in RAM and this is what we can achieve streaming them in as needed.

Yes having some demos following that presentation would help a ton. But it is what it is. I think they will start marketing that aspect soon but needed this portion out of the way first.

The people who don't change their views and opinions based on new facts and information are the fools. Let's not confuse stubbornness with open-mindedness. The vast majority of people were OK with PS5 being ~10TF before the announcement. Hoped for more, but were OK with it. Nobody is freaking out about the PS5's specs.

This is so true if I had money I would gift you GAF gold or something.

You were spamming reports with "FUD" from what I gather.

Not every bit of criticism warrants action.

Ok I'm sorry about that, in my candid defense, having the personality that I have, seeing so much blatant logical fallacies, loaded questions and console warring in general, in the hectic period right after Cerny's presentation, I felt the urge to try to respond to all but seeing the sheer number of them frustrated me, and I just spammed the reports wishing swift moderation. But I was so in the moment that I forgot what the world's been going through and this is not everything, it's supposed to be about gaming and healthy discussion. So again sorry if I actually made it worse to do your job with my spam reports

 

[Ramz87]

Anyone know if the PS5 will be able to display 4K 60fps? I’m hearing the price is likely to be £399?

 

[psorcerer]

30% less Raytracing hardware, that will be the more interesting part when it comes to comparing the 2

Bullshit.

 

[Reindeer]

Anyone know if the PS5 will be able to display 4K 60fps? I’m hearing the price is likely to be £399?

Maybe less demanding games, but it's highly unlikely even Series X will do 4K60 with very demanding games. You will likely see things like dynamic resolution, 1600/1800p and AI upscaling most of the time as next gen progresses. Wait for Pro consoles if you want true 4K60 next gen.

 

[ZywyPL]

The clock is 2230Mhz.
‭10275840‬

Round to 10.3TFs.

XBX GPU actually has 12.155 TF, which can be rounded to 12.16, and if we round it even further it's 12.2TF! Just... accept the defeat guys.

 

[48086]

Lol, "things change".

 

[Deeper Underground]

There it is again. Fundamental lack of knowledge. ("lol")

Be prepared to see this statement and variations of it for years. Too many warriors are trying to downplay the SSD by comparing it to a standard PC drive when it’s several magnitudes more complex.

 

[mitchman]

Supporters of Xbox and PS alike should probably go and watch and listen to Cerny talk about the PS5 again with a new set of expectations and with an open mind. The stuff he is talking about is absolutely mind blowing.

I was as disappointed as everyone else because I expected something totally different yesterday, but today, upon rewatching, I'm properly stoked about the potential of PS5.

The SSD really is the game-changer and anybody who says it'll only improve load times needs their head checked.

I was also very disappointing because so much of the speculation has been focused on TF and not much else, but seeing the difference is "only" 16% or so and some of the difference will be eaten by the higher clock speed in PS5, I'm actually feeling better about it now.
Yes, I still think Sony should have known the talk would be about TF and done more there, but I also see how they put more of the budget into an outstanding SSD solution which might mean more for regular gaming experiences than 16% difference in TF. The games will tell, I suppose.

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

Maybe less demanding games, but it's highly unlikely even Series X will do 4K60 with very demanding games. You will likely see things like dynamic resolution, 1600/1800p and AI upscaling most of the time as next gen progresses. Wait for Pro consoles if you want true 4K60 next gen.

The expert says so. Believe him!

 

[Reindeer]

XBX GPU actually has 12.155 TF, which can be rounded to 12.16, and if we round it even further it's 12.2TF! Just... accept the defeat guys.

The actual difference in tflops is 1.87 and not 1.7 or 2 as some rounding it up to be to fit their own agenda.

 

[Smoke6]

I recommend you rewatch the video from yesterday. PS5 games are entering in beta testing and right now top 100 games will be on BC day one. They give me 'less' reasons to get a PS5 day one.
Keep in mind I not get a PS4 day one as well. I get the PS4 slim. I was hoping for a next gen way of doing BC. I could be happy with little PS5 games while I could play PS4 games while I wait the proper next gen games to happen, but I not so sure now. What is the probability of those 100 games one of them be my?

I live in Brazil and the top 7 games here are Fortnine, Ark and GTAV. None of those games I play.

Again, different people, different targets. For me was a deal break. No more day one for me.

MS don't make RT mandatory as well, but only Sony don't release tech demo about RT.

No! He clearly said they tested the top 100 games and they all pretty much are running fine and will keep us up to date on that but it’s looking good for full back compatibility

 

[CJY]

Here's the transcript of Cerny's talk about the SSD:

04:19 has been astonishing but there are other
04:21 areas in which we can innovate and
04:22 provide significant value to the game
04:24 creators
04:25 and through them the players that's why
04:27 the SSD was very much on our list of
04:29 directions to explore regardless of what
04:32 came out of the conversations with game
04:34 developers and publishers the biggest
04:37 feature in this category is the custom
04:39 engine for audio that's today's final
04:41 topic
04:41 the push for vastly improved audio and
04:44 in particular 3d audio isn't something
04:47 that came out of the developer meetings
04:49 it's much more the case that we had a
04:50 dream of what might be possible five
04:53 years from now and then worked out a
04:55 number of steps we could take to set us
04:57 on that path so here again are the three
05:00 principles the first being enabling the
05:02 desires of developers to drive the
05:05 hardware design to me the SSD really is
05:08 the key to the next generation it's a
05:10 game changer and it was the number one
05:13 ask from developers for PlayStation 5 as
05:15 in we know it's probably impossible but
05:18 can you put an SSD in it that was a
05:22 discussion we were also having
05:23 internally it was clear that the
05:25 presence of a hard drive in every
05:26 PlayStation 4 was having a positive
05:28 impact a lot of things that would simply
05:30 have been impossible at blu-ray disc
05:33 speeds were now possible at the same
05:35 time though in 2015 and 2016 when we
05:38 were having these conversations
05:39 developers were already banging up
05:41 against the limits of the hard drive and
05:43 a lot of developer time was being spent
05:45 designing around slow load speeds I want
05:50 to focus in on just one number here
05:52 which is how long it takes to load a
05:54 gigabyte of data from a hard drive the
05:57 difficulty being that hard drives are
05:59 neither particularly fast nor flexible
06:02 if all your data is in one block which
06:04 is frankly not very likely you can load
06:07 50 to 100 megabytes a second depending
06:09 on where the data is located on the hard
06:11 drive let's assume it's on the outer
06:13 edge which means loading a gigabyte
06:15 takes 10 seconds if you compress your
06:17 game packages you can fit more data on
06:19 the blu-ray disc and also effectively
06:21 boost your hard drive read speed by the
06:24 compression ratio we support Z Lib
06:27 decompression on PlayStation 4 that gets
06:28 you something like 50% more data on the
06:31 disk and 50% higher effect
06:33 to read speed unfortunately though it's
06:36 highly likely that your data is
06:38 scattered around in various files on the
06:40 hard drive as well as sourced from
06:42 multiple locations within those files so
06:44 lots of sikhs are needed at two to 50
06:47 ish milliseconds each my rule of thumb
06:50 is that the hard drive is spending 2/3
06:52 of its time seeking and only 1/3 of its
06:55 time actually loading data putting all
06:58 of that together a gigabyte is very
07:00 roughly 20 seconds to load from a hard
07:03 drive now a gigabyte is not much data
07:07 games are using five or six gigabytes of
07:09 RAM on PlayStation 4 so boot times and
07:11 load times can get pretty grim or to put
07:14 that differently as a player you wait
07:16 for the game to boot wait for the game
07:18 to load wait for the level to reload
07:21 every time you die and you wait for what
07:24 is euphemistically called fast travel
07:26 and all of that leads to the dream what
07:30 if we could have not just an SSD but a
07:32 blindingly fast Assisting if we could
07:35 load 5 gigabytes a second from it what
07:37 would change now SSDs are completely
07:40 different from hard drives they don't
07:42 have sikhs as such if you have a 5
07:44 gigabyte a second SSD you can read data
07:47 from a thousand different locations in
07:49 that second pretty much at speed as for
07:52 time to load a gigabyte this is next-gen
07:54 we're talking about so memory is bigger
07:56 instead we should be asking how long to
07:59 load 2 gigabytes and the answer is about
08:02 a quarter of a second that's amazing
08:04 we're talking two orders of magnitude
08:06 meaning very roughly 100 times faster
08:10 which means at five gigabytes a second
08:13 for the SSD the potential is that the
08:15 game boots in a second there are no load
08:18 screens the game just fades down while
08:20 loading a half-dozen gigabytes and fades
08:22 back up again same for a reload you're
08:24 immediately back in the action after you
08:26 die and fast travel becomes so fast it's
08:30 blinking you miss it as game creators we
08:32 go from trying to distract the player
08:34 from how long fast travel is taking like
08:36 those Spiderman subway rides to being so
08:39 blindingly fast that we might even have
08:41 to slow that transition down pretty cool
08:44 right but for me this is not the primary
08:47 reason to change from a hard drive to an
08:49 SSD the primary reason for an ultra-fast
08:52 SSD is that it gives the game designer
08:54 freedom or to put that differently with
08:57 a hard drive the twenty seconds that it
09:00 takes to load a gigabyte can sabotage
09:02 the game that the developer is trying to
09:04 create I think almost all of us in the
09:07 room have experienced this maybe in
09:09 different ways
09:10 say we're making an adventure game and
09:12 we have two rich environments where we
09:14 each want enough textures and models to
09:16 fill memory what you can do as long as
09:18 you have a long staircase or elevator
09:20 ride or a windy corridor where you can
09:23 ditch the old assets and then take 30
09:25 seconds or so to load the new assets
09:27 having a 30 second elevator ride is a
09:30 little extreme more realistically we'd
09:33 probably chop the world into a number of
09:35 smaller pieces and then do some
09:37 calculations with sightlines and runs
09:39 beans like we did for Haven city when we
09:42 were making jak 2 the game is 20 years
09:45 old but not much has changed since then
09:47 all those twisty passages are there for
09:50 a reason there's a whole subset of level
09:52 design dedicated to this sort of work
09:54 but still it's a giant distraction for a
09:56 team that just wants to make their game
09:59 so when I talked about the dream of an
10:02 SSD part of the reason for that five
10:04 gigabyte a second target was to
10:06 eliminate loads but also part of the
10:09 reason for that target was streaming as
10:11 in what if the SSD is so fast that as
10:15 the player is turning around it's
10:17 possible to load textures for everything
10:19 behind the player in that split second
10:21 if you figure that it takes half a
10:23 second to turn that's 4 gigabytes of
10:25 compressed data you can load that sounds
10:27 about right for next gen anyway back to
10:30 the hard drive another strategy for
10:32 increasing effective read speed is to
10:34 make big sequential chunks of data for
10:36 example we might group all the data
10:38 together for each city block that
10:40 removes most of the seeks and the
10:42 streaming gets faster but there's a
10:44 downside to which is that frequently
10:46 used data is included in many chunks and
10:48 therefore is on the hard drive many many
10:51 times
10:51 Marvel spider-men uses this strategy and
10:54 though it works very well for increasing
10:56 the streaming speed there's a massive
10:58 duplication as a result someone
11:00 the objects like mailboxes or newsracks
11:03 are on the hard drive 400 times what I'm
11:06 describing here are things that cramp a
11:09 creative director style either level
11:11 design gets a little bit boring in
11:13 places or the data is duplicated so many
11:15 times that it no longer fits on the
11:17 blu-ray disc and you end up with hard
11:19 limits on the players run speed or
11:21 driving speed the player can't go faster
11:23 than the load speed from the hard drive
11:25 and finally I'm sure many of you have
11:28 noticed that after a patch download a
11:30 PlayStation 4 will sometimes take a long
11:32 time to install the patch that's because
11:35 when just part of a file has been
11:37 changed the new data can be downloaded
11:39 pretty quickly but before the game boots
11:41 up a brand new file has to be
11:43 constructed that includes the changed
11:45 portion otherwise every change would add
11:48 a seek or two even so you can
11:50 occasionally see this happening on game
11:52 titles they start to hitch once they get
11:55 patched enough with an SSD though no
11:58 seeks so no need to make brand new files
12:00 with the changes incorporated into them
12:02 which means no installs as you know them
12:05 today there's yet one more benefit which
12:09 is that system memory can be used much
12:12 more efficiently on PlayStation 4 game
12:15 data on the hard drive feels very
12:17 distant and difficult to use by the time
12:19 you realize you need a piece of data
12:21 it's much too late to go out and load it
12:23 so system memory has to contain all of
12:25 the data that could be used in the next
12:27 30 seconds or so of gameplay that means
12:30 a lot of the eight gigabytes of system
12:32 memory is idle it's just waiting there
12:34 to be potentially used on PlayStation 5
12:38 though the SSD is very close to being
12:41 like more RAM typically it's fast enough
12:43 that when you realize you need a piece
12:45 of data you can just load it from the
12:47 SSD and use it there's no need to have
12:49 lots of data parked in system memory
12:51 waiting to potentially be used a
12:53 different way of saying that is that
12:55 most of Ram is working on the game's
12:58 behalf this is one of the reasons that
13:01 16 gigabytes of gddr5 a station 5 the
13:05 presence of the SSD reduces the need for
13:08 a massive intergenerational increase in
13:11 size so back to the dream of the SSD
13:14 here's the set of targets book the game
13:17 in a second no load screens design
13:21 freedom meaning no twisty passages or
13:23 long corridors more game on the discs
13:26 and more game on the SSD and finally
13:28 those patch installs go away the reality
13:32 though is that the SSD is just one piece
13:35 of the puzzle there's a lot of places
13:36 where bottlenecks can occur in between
13:38 the SSD and the game code that uses the
13:41 data you can see this on PlayStation 4
13:43 if I use an SSD with 10 times the speed
13:46 of a standard hard drive I probably see
13:48 only double the loading speed if that
13:51 for PlayStation 5 our goal was not just
13:55 that the SSD itself be a hundred times
13:57 faster it was that game loads and
13:59 streaming would be a hundred times
14:01 faster so every single potential
14:03 bottleneck needed to be addressed and
14:05 there are a lot of them let's look at
14:08 check-in and what happens when its
14:10 overhead gets a hundred times larger
14:11 conceptually check-in is a pretty simple
14:14 process data is loaded into system
14:16 memory from the hard drive or SSD its
14:18 examined a few values are tweaked to
14:21 check it in and then it's moved to its
14:23 final location at the SSD speeds we're
14:26 talking about that last part moving the
14:28 data meaning copying it from one
14:30 location to another takes roughly an
14:33 entire next-gen CPU core and that's just
14:36 the tip of the iceberg if all the
14:37 overheads get a hundred times larger
14:39 that will cripple the framerate as soon
14:41 as the player moves and that massive
14:43 stream of data starts coming off the SSD
14:45 so to solve all of that we built a lot
14:48 of custom hardware namely a custom flash
14:51 controller and a number of custom units
14:53 in our main chip the flash controller in
14:56 the SSD was designed for smooth and
14:58 bottleneck free operation but also with
15:01 games in mind for example there are six
15:03 levels of priority when reading from the
15:04 SSD priority is very important you can
15:07 imagine the player heading into some new
15:09 location in the world and the game
15:11 requesting a few gigabytes of textures
15:13 and while those textures are being
15:15 loaded an enemy is shot and has to speak
15:18 a few dying words having multiple
15:21 priority levels let's the audio for
15:23 those dying words get loaded immediately
15:25 on one side that
15:28 - controller connects to the actual
15:30 flash dies that supplied the storage to
15:32 reach our bandwidth target of five
15:34 gigabytes a second we ended up with a 12
15:37 channel interface 8 channels wouldn't be
15:39 enough the resulting bandwidth we have
15:42 achieved is actually five and a half
15:44 gigabytes a second with a 12 channel
15:46 interface the most natural size that
15:48 emerges for an SSD is 825 gigabytes the
15:52 key question for us was is that enough
15:56 it's tempting to add more but flash
15:58 certainly doesn't come cheap and we have
16:00 a responsibility to our gaming audience
16:02 to be cost effective with regards to
16:04 what we put in the console ultimately we
16:07 resolved this question by looking at the
16:09 play patterns of a broad range of gamers
16:11 we examined the specific games that they
16:14 were playing over the course of a
16:15 weekend or week or a month and whether
16:18 that set of games would fit properly on
16:20 the SSD we were able to establish that
16:23 the friction caused by reinstalled or
16:25 read downloads would be quite low and so
16:28 we locked in on that 825 gigabyte size
16:31 while also preparing multiple strategies
16:33 so that those who want more storage can
16:36 add it I'll go through the details in a
16:38 moment
16:38 back to the flash controller on the
16:41 other side it connects to our main
16:43 custom chip via four lanes of Gen 4 PCIe
16:45 and inside the main custom chip is a
16:48 pretty hefty unit dedicated to i/o
16:51 before we talk about what that does
16:53 let's talk compression for a moment
16:56 PlayStation 4 used Z live as its
16:58 compression format we decided to use it
17:01 again on PlayStation 5 but on my 2017
17:04 tour of developers I learned about a new
17:06 format called Kraken from rad game tools
17:09 it's like Z libs smarter cousin simple
17:12 similar types of algorithms but about
17:15 10% better compression which is pretty
17:18 big that means 10% more game on the UHD
17:20 blu-ray disc or on the SSD kraken had
17:24 only been out for a year but it was
17:25 already becoming a de-facto industry
17:27 standard half of the teams I talked to
17:29 or either using it or getting ready to
17:31 evaluate it so we hustled and built a
17:34 custom D compressor into the i/o unit
17:37 one capable of handling over five
17:39 gigabytes of Kraken
17:40 format input data a second after
17:43 decompression that typically becomes
17:45 eight or nine gigabytes but the unit
17:47 itself is capable of outputting as much
17:49 as 22 gigabytes a second if the data
17:52 happened to compress particularly well
17:54 by the way in terms of performance that
17:57 custom decompressor equates to nine of
18:00 ours and two cores
18:01 that's what it would take to decompress
18:03 the kraken stream with a conventional
18:04 CPU there's a lot more in the custom IO
18:08 unit including a dedicated DMA
18:10 controller the game can direct exactly
18:12 where it wants to send the data coming
18:14 off of the SSD this equates to another
18:17 Xen two core or two in terms of its copy
18:19 performance its primary purpose is to
18:21 remove check in as a bottleneck there's
18:24 two dedicated i/o coprocessors in a
18:27 larger ampoule these are tins in two
18:29 cores there are there principally to
18:30 direct the variety of custom hardware
18:32 around them one of the coprocessors is
18:35 dedicated to SSD i/o this lets us bypass
18:38 traditional file i/o and it's
18:40 bottlenecks when reading from the SSD
18:42 the other is responsible for memory
18:44 mapping which I know doesn't sound like
18:46 anything related to the SSD but a lot of
18:49 developers map and remap memory as part
18:51 of file i/o and this too can become a
18:54 bottleneck there are coherency engines
18:57 to assist the coprocessors coherency
19:00 comes up a lot in places probably the
19:02 biggest coherency issue is stale data in
19:04 the GPU caches flushing all of the GPU
19:07 caches whenever the SSD is read is an
19:10 unattractive option it could really hurt
19:13 the GPU performance so we've implemented
19:15 a gentler way of doing things where the
19:18 coherency engines inform the GPU of the
19:21 overwritten address ranges and custom
19:24 scrubbers in several dozen GPU caches to
19:26 pinpoint evictions of just those address
19:29 ranges the best thing is as a game
19:31 developer when you read from the SSD you
19:33 don't need to know any of this you don't
19:36 even need to know that your data is
19:37 compressed you just indicate what data
19:40 you'd like to read from your original
19:42 uncompressed file and where you'd like
19:44 to put it and the whole process of
19:45 loading it happens invisibly to you and
19:48 at very high speed back to the dream
19:51 thanks to all of that surrounding hard
19:54 our 5.5 gigabytes a second really should
19:56 translate into something like a hundred
19:58 times faster IO than ps4 and allow the
20:01 dream of no load screens and superfast
20:04 streaming to become a reality
20:06 having said that expandability of our
20:09 SSD is going to be quite important
20:11 flash is costly and you may very well
20:13 want to add storage to whatever we put
20:15 in the console now the kind of storage
20:19 you need depends on how you're going to
20:20 use it if you have an extensive
20:22 PlayStation 4 library and you'd like to
20:25 take advantage of backwards
20:26 compatibility to play those games on
20:28 PlayStation 5 then a large external hard
20:30 drive is ideal you can leave your games
20:33 on the hard drive and play them directly
20:35 from there thus saving the pricier SSD
20:38 storage for your PlayStation 5 titles or
20:40 you can copy your active PlayStation 4
20:42 titles to the SSD if your purpose in
20:45 adding more storage is to play
20:46 playstation 5 titles though ideally you
20:49 would add to your SSD storage we will be
20:52 supporting certain m2 SSDs these are
20:55 internal drives that you can get on the
20:56 open market and install in a bay in the
20:59 playstation 5 as for which ones we
21:02 support and when I'll get to that in a
21:04 moment they connect through the custom
21:06 io unit just like our SSD does so they
21:09 can take full advantage of the
21:11 decompression io coprocessors and all
21:13 the other features I was talking about
21:15 here's the catch though that commercial
21:18 drive has to be at least as fast as ours
21:21 games that rely on the speed of our SSD
21:23 need to work flawlessly with nem to
21:26 drive when I gave the Wired interview
21:29 last year I said that the PlayStation 5
21:31 SSD was faster than anything available
21:33 on PC at the time commercial M 2 drives
21:36 used pcie 3.0 and four lanes of that cap
21:40 out at 3.5 gigabytes a second in other
21:43 words no pcie 3.0 Drive can hit the
21:46 required spec M 2 drives with PCI u 4.0
21:51 or now out in the market we're getting
21:52 our in samples and seeing four or five
21:56 gigabytes a second from them by year's
21:58 end I expect there will be drives that
22:00 saturate 4.0 and supports seven
22:03 gigabytes a second having said that we
22:05 are comparing
22:06 apples and oranges though because that
22:08 commercial m2 Drive will have its own
22:10 architecture its own flash controller
22:12 and so on for example the nvme
22:15 specification lays out a priority scheme
22:17 for requests that the m2 drives can use
22:19 and that scheme is pretty nice but it
22:23 only has two true priority levels our
22:26 drive supports six we can hook up a
22:29 drive with only two priority levels
22:31 definitely but our custom IO unit has to
22:33 arbitrate the extra priorities rather
22:35 than the m2 drives flash controller and
22:37 so the m2 drive needs a little extra
22:40 speed to take care of issues arising
22:41 from the different approach that
22:44 Commercial Drive also needs to
22:45 physically fit inside of the bay we
22:48 created in PlayStation 5 for m2 drives
22:50 unlike internal hard drives there's
22:53 unfortunately no standard for the height
22:55 of an m2 Drive and some m2 drives have
22:58 giant heat sinks in fact some of them
23:00 even have their own fans right now we're
23:03 getting em to drive samples and
23:05 benchmarking them in various ways when
23:07 games hit in beta as they get ready for
23:09 the PlayStation 5 launch at year-end
23:11 we'll also be doing some compatibility
23:13 testing to make sure that the
23:15 architecture of particular M 2 drives
23:17 isn't too foreign for the games to
23:19 handle once we've done that
23:20 compatibility testing we should be able
23:22 to start letting you know which drives
23:24 will physically fit and which drive
23:26 samples have benchmark appropriately
23:28 high in our testing it would be great if
23:31 that happened by launch but it's likely
23:32 to be a bit past it so please hold off
23:35 on getting that M2 drive until you
23:37 hear from us

 

[48086]

Be prepared to see this statement and variations of it for years. Too many warriors are trying to downplay the SSD by comparing it to a standard PC drove when it’s several magnitudes more complex.

No one is downplaying the ssd. If anything, the ssd is being hailed as a god by warriors. The fact is, no one really knows what it's capable of when it comes to games. Will third parties utilize it? Will first party Sony games be significantly better than xsx first games because of it? Sure it's great tech but it's not really going to matter if it doesn't allow for obvious improvements over the xsx in the yearly sportsball, cod, and first party games.

 

[Reindeer]

The expert says so. Believe him!

SMH. That's just common sense. Not even 2080 TI can run all games from this gen at 60FPS. You can cry about those games running at ultra settings on PC, but you have to take into account that fidelity will be massively increased next gen which will consume a lot of power. None of this is rocket science, I'm sorry if it is to you.

 

[SlimySnake]

Lol, "things change".

trump was right about fake news.

Andrew Reiner from Gameinformer, Colin Moriarty Ex-Kinda Funny Games, Klee From EGM, Jason From Kotaku, Hasan Pirzada from WCCFTECH, all journalists, all misled us in one way or another.

I was always suspicious of forum insiders, but had some built in trust for these journalists with sources in the industry. Never again. they will say anything they hear. i bet sony first party devs were creating this false narrative feeding them bad info all this time.

 

[husomc]

Yeah I think ppl are erring on caution because thy Dont comprehend and nobody knows what tht ssd really means in real world performance and application also the high clock speeds. Shit even DF were talking in theoretical and not necessarily facts for alot of ps5 breakdown.

The more I think about it the more I'm excited to find out how this turns out.

Ppl shouldn't be allowed to err. Sony has to show it to us. Going forward every day that Sony goes without clarifying or dropping bombs, is a day that they lose some of their momentum/goodwill

 

[Shmunter]

Supporters of Xbox and PS alike should probably go and watch and listen to Cerny talk about the PS5 again with a new set of expectations and with an open mind. The stuff he is talking about is absolutely mind blowing.

I was as disappointed as everyone else because I expected something totally different yesterday, but today, upon rewatching, I'm properly stoked about the potential of PS5.

The SSD really is the game-changer and anybody who says it'll only improve load times needs their head checked.

It takes more than 1 viewing to piece it together. You’re right, everything he delivers is out of this world, ssd, pushing sound just as much as gfx.

Even that boost shit that initially seems like smoke and mirrors to cover up some weak sauce has merit.

Putting 2 and 2 together, the PS5 is a proper dev focused dream machine as he put it.

 

[lepermessiah]

People said the same thing about GitHub and look how that turned out. Once you got the data infront of you and have the main info about the GPU and CPU you pretty much got a general idea about how it should function.

Except I doubt the vast majority of those that touted the github leak on twitter, YouTube and forums that aren't devs (remember the leak was rdna 1, let's not forget) understood what all that hardware customisation/custom silicon, co-processors, etc, tech talk from Cerny was about in the least.

I'm totally unsure about which will garner better real-world results on which titles at the end of the day. Yes Series X has the raw number advantage, however it remains to be seen whether it'll always perform the best under all scenarios.
Remember Assassins Creed Unity performing better on the vanilla Xbox One over the PS4 due to more cpu intensive loads? I remember, now take into account that variable frequency and bottleneck killing that Cerny mentioned... Performance wise things are going to be interesting and far more nuanced than just looking at raw numbers on paper.

 

[David Ricardo]

The people who don't change their views and opinions based on new facts and information are the fools. Let's not confuse stubbornness with open-mindedness. The vast majority of people were OK with PS5 being ~10TF before the announcement. Hoped for more, but were OK with it. Nobody is freaking out about the PS5's specs.

I am freaking out about PS5s specs.

Lots of insiders lead us to believe that PS5 was 12+ teraflops:
Andy Reiner reported devs at E319 were saying PS5 was more powerful
Colin Moriarty said PS5 was more powerful
BGs said PS5 was in it's puberty, I replied I guessed 12-13 and he liked my comment
Kleegamefan said PS5 was more powerful
Osirisblack said PS5 was 12.4 teraflops
Tommy Fisher said PS5 was 13.3 teraflops

So 10.3 teraflops (variable because to get there it runs at insane clocks) is a big dissappointment.

So yeah, we have new data that tells us that PS5 is much worse than expected. Only technical aspects in it's favor are the SSD and the audio chip, which experience tell us are going to be ignored by the majority of multiplatform developers. And according to this new data my opinion about PS5 has changed for the worse.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Ppl shouldn't be allowed to err. Sony has to show it to us. Going forward every day that Sony goes without clarifying or dropping bombs, is a day that they lose some of their momentum/goodwill

Thyve built good will on years of great games, features, innovation and hardware so I don't agree with tht part. Good will doesn't get lost so easily.

However i agree the onus is on them to show what the system is capable of which we all know thy will, just depends on when.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Prove it then!

i haven’t seen one credible person come out and say the shit you’re spewing! Comes off as if you’re upset MS didnt think of this first and implement it!

It actually sounds like the opposite here. I think the burden of proof falls on Sony. Series x is no slouch when it comes to I/o and is considerably faster than what has been seen in the console space. They also have a very powerful GPU and faster pool of ram.

If you are saying that these incredibly high SSD speeds are going to mitigate those differences then Sony is the one that needs to be "proving" it.

 

[husomc]

What does QOL mean? Since SSD is all about streaming game assets would PS4PRo:

For Grand Theft Auto 5: Would I see more foliage and realistic looking textures ?
For Gran Turismo 5: Would flat looking cardboard cut out trees be actual trees and with real grass blades? Would textures of the cars, and roads look more real?
The Last of Us 2: Would the levels be bigger?
God of War 4 and Uncharted 4: Would Kratos and drake have more realsitc manly looks an be able to show sweat drops? Tee hee

What's your definition of a real blade of grass ?

 

[48086]

trump was right about fake news.

Andrew Reiner from Gameinformer, Colin Moriarty Ex-Kinda Funny Games, Klee From EGM, Jason From Kotaku, Hasan Pirzada from WCCFTECH, all journalists, all misled us in one way or another.

I was always suspicious of forum insiders, but had some built in trust for these journalists with sources in the industry. Never again. They are parrots just like thuway. they will say anything they hear. i bet sony first party devs were creating this false narrative feeding them bad info all this time.

Personally, I don't think that's it. The large majority of games "journalists" generate revenue through online ads. There are far more ps fans right now than xbox fans. In other words, many more people are going to view pages on websites that speak positively about playstation. When it comes to playstation centric people like Moriarty, he has a direct financial incentive to keep the largest audience as possible. Losing fans means canceled patreon subscriptions. These personalities and "journalists" all have financial incentives to push the narrative that the ps5 and sony are better consoles, companies, and communities than the alternative.

 

[Gamernyc78]

I am freaking out about PS5s specs.

Lots of insiders lead us to believe that PS5 was 12+ teraflops:
Andy Reiner reported devs at E319 were saying PS5 was more powerful
Colin Moriarty said PS5 was more powerful
BGs said PS5 was in it's puberty, I replied I guessed 12-13 and he liked my comment
Kleegamefan said PS5 was more powerful
Osirisblack said PS5 was 12.4 teraflops
Tommy Fisher said PS5 was 13.3 teraflops

So 10.3 teraflops (variable because to get there it runs at insane clocks) is a big dissappointment.

So yeah, we have new data that tells us that PS5 is much worse than expected. Only technical aspects in it's favor are the SSD and the audio chip, which experience tell us are going to be ignored by the majority of multiplatform developers. And according to this new data my opinion about PS5 has changed for the worse.

What new data? Everything I've been seeing including DF has their super fast ssd as a wild card tht has potential for big things. Let's not speak without being well informed yet.

 

[ethomaz]

Somebody that knows what he is talking about.

Fast SSDs speeds changes how you develop your game and how you build your world.
It breaks a lot of limitation that you have to deal before it.

Plus you can create new techs, innovate, etc... so the dev imagination is open for new experiences.

Most times consoles developers import techs from PC devs but this time PC has no ideia (because they can't use SSD to that extend) of what can be create with super faster SSDs.

I'm very interested how PC developers (multiplatforms) will deal with that on PC where you have very slow HDDs.