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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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LED Guy?

Banned
Schreier doesn't know what a 2080 can do, I think.
But he said “several developers” told him so.

This even coincides with the 12 TF RDNA for Xbox Series X even, as it can outperform a 2080, and Kleegamefan said that PS5 has the GPU edge against Xbox Series X.

So I believe what they’re saying, the writing is on the wall.
 

sinnergy

Member
This same stuff was said after the X1 reveal and could be used as an excuse for almost any badly received idea. We can still analyze a business decision and criticize it even if it is new
You never heard me say you can’t critic it. As long as people keep an open mind about the possibilities and potential outcome. Instead some just say, it fails because this company does this and that.

not to be an ass, but we are all victims of our own reference in life. If everyone thought about what’s currently possible we wouldn’t have space flight, electric cars, microwave etc ...
 

Fitzchiv

Member
I neve claimed it's not presenting a range, just that the lower end would probably get a poorly running port (which is already happening by the by).

What exactly am I obfuscating here?
I thought your concern was in claiming the Pro was "optional", and I explained my reasoning there.
I neve claimed it's not presenting a range, just that the lower end would probably get a poorly running port (which is already happening by the by).

What exactly am I obfuscating here?
I thought your concern was in claiming the Pro was "optional", and I explained my reasoning there.

I've been clear that I think your summing up of the Sony/Nintendo position and MS position, because they're subjective and selectively formed, and because presented as some kind of rational clarification, is obfuscation.

We're all at it, this forum would be dead otherwise. But let's call a spade a spade eh....
 

Roronoa Zoro

Gold Member
You never heard me say you can’t critic it. As long as people keep an open mind about the possibilities and potential outcome. Instead some just say, it fails because this company does this and that.

not to be an ass, but we are all victims of our own reference in life. If everyone thought about what’s currently possible we wouldn’t have space flight, electric cars, microwave etc ...
You can take risks. But taking away exclusives doesn't seem like a risk as much as a safe move. Just make everything available I'm sure it makes development easier
 
HBM 2 is possible because it will be cheaper than GDDR6 soon, but GDDR6 price will go up. And also someone recently made a huge order of HBM 2 modules.
5+ GB/s SSD tech is also possible because, last year Cerny did say that the RAW bandwidth of the PS5’s SSD is higher than of any other SSD’s on the market right now. So, last year during that time PCIe 3 SSD were only available on the market with speed up to 3.0 GB/s.
So, with recently launched PCIe 4 SSD and Samsung advertised 980 Pro SSD with next-gen PlayStation which has speed up to 7GB/s. So, it falls in line what Cerny said : "PS5’s SSD is higher than of any other SSD’s on the market right now."
XSX SSD was claimed in a supposed spec sheet from Windows Central to be "up to 2GB/s".

HBM2 will still remain at a higher premium even once GDDR6 prices increase (speaking of which the increase is not THAT much; 5% at most) because SK Hynix and Samsung have already noted that other clients are willing to pay a premium for that memory. HBM2E and HBM3 (whenever that goes into production) will also carry those premiums. The only potential cost-friendly HBM on the horizon is reduced-cost HBM which is supposed to come out this year. It's aiming for 200 GB/s bandwidth (really more like 196 GB/s) and 512-bit bus per stack...but production hasn't begun yet.

WCC's specs included guesses/estimates, one of which was likely the SSD; I doubt Microsoft would go with that slow of a drive in their system. Even if it's not as fast as the PS5's, reasoning would dictate it'll probably be at least 4 GB/s (2x PCIe 4.0 lane connections); no reason not to when the Zen 2 processor these systems are using probably supports up to 24 PCIe 4.0 lanes (or at least 16 if they cut some down for the mobile variants, if the systems are using those 4800H mobile processors revealed at CES).

There's still a lot of things to keep in mind but it's probably safe to rule out HBM-related memory (at least as the main system memory). There's no path where anything other than the reduced-cost variant (which hasn't entered pre-production yet IIRC) can be affordably placed in a console at the amounts a console manufacturer would need.
 
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sinnergy

Member
You can take risks. But taking away exclusives doesn't seem like a risk as much as a safe move. Just make everything available I'm sure it makes development easier
There are still Xbox Ecosystem exclusives, including Windows, those games are not on Sony or Nintendo. And 3rd party can still make Series X exclusives, MS just thinks this is what they can provide , at least that’s how I see it. And seeing what the target is with Hellblade 2 I am fine with it. And will enjoy some of my favorite One X games even more with Series X patches.
 

Gamernyc78

Banned
I’m sorry but even as an Xbox fan I find Hellblade to be a terribly boring walking through circles simulator that happens to be a pretty tech demo. The bs psychosis-edgy-whatever way to sell the game also didn’t help anything.

I’m sorry, I had to say it.

I said it in previous posts. I own Hellblade but why would ppl latch on the sequel being some graphical showcase of what a system can do? Did we play the same Hellblade tht was very restrictive and repetitive? It was a good looking game but very held back and you could tell.
 
HBM2 will still remain at a higher premium even once GDDR6 prices increase (speaking of which the increase is not THAT much; 5% at most) because SK Hynix and Samsung have already noted that other clients are willing to pay a premium for that memory. HBM2E and HBM3 (whenever that goes into production) will also carry those premiums. The only potential cost-friendly HBM on the horizon is reduced-cost HBM which is supposed to come out this year. It's aiming for 200 GB/s bandwidth (really more like 196 GB/s) and 512-bit bus per stack...but production hasn't begun yet.

Cerny's SSD comment is a bit of a play; at the time he said it there was a drive on the market, the Gigabyte Aurous, with 5 GB/s read and about 4 GB/s write speeds. This was already on the market when he made the comment. Technically a 5.x GB/s drive would put it ahead, but that would be by a hair. Also WCC's specs included guesses/estimates, one of which was likely the SSD; I doubt Microsoft would go with that slow of a drive in their system. Even if it's not as fast as the PS5's, reasoning would dictate it'll probably be at least 4 GB/s (2x PCIe 4.0 lane connections); no reason not to when the Zen 2 processor these systems are using probably supports up to 24 PCIe 4.0 lanes (or at least 16 if they cut some down for the mobile variants, if the systems are using those 4800H mobile processors revealed at CES).

There's still a lot of things to keep in mind but it's probably safe to rule out HBM-related memory (at least as the main system memory). There's no path where anything other than the reduced-cost variant (which hasn't entered pre-production yet IIRC) can be affordably placed in a console at the amounts a console manufacturer would need.

It's not by a hair if Samsung 980 read/write is 6500/5000. That's 1.5 GB more. So, it's possible for PS5 to have such SSD speed or little more.

According to this article isn't 5% at most, over 5% or even 10%


Btw. HBM2 price dropped significantly recently. 3 years ago from 160$/GB to todays 120$/16GB. If Vega has HBM 2 memory, well, that was 3 years ago, then PS5 3 years later can have HBM 2. And also, Sony is still silent on RAM type because some reasons.
 
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joe_zazen

Member
You never heard me say you can’t critic it. As long as people keep an open mind about the possibilities and potential outcome. Instead some just say, it fails because this company does this and that.

not to be an ass, but we are all victims of our own reference in life. If everyone thought about what’s currently possible we wouldn’t have space flight, electric cars, microwave etc ...

or nuclear warheads, sweatshops, or global warming...good with the bad i guess.

but we are talking about premium videogame market. If you want to know what the majority of the market wants, it is free games on hardware they already have for other purposes.

But a market still exists for premium games on purpose built hardware; that is $60+ games running on gaming pcs and consoles and handhelds. Logically, a rational person should play least expensive games on hardware they already own. But, surprise! People aren't always rational.

So, the question is, how many people are willing to drop $10-$15 per month for a sub and/or buy $60 games, but are unwilling to buy purpose built hardware for a better experience? Imho, that number is very small. this is why the switch will sell 10 000 times more $60 games than ios.

I could totally be wrong though.
 

Norse

Member
I'm always curious why people feel the need to defend MS or Sony so adamantly. Maybe Microsoft should come out and clarify what to expect from next gen versions of their games. I really don't understand why you (and a bunch of others) feel the need to defend something like this.

They've put out a semi controversial or poorly worded statement around next generation games. Let them own it and address it themselves.
Neither has had an official unveiling yet so again people are arguing over shit they know nothing about.
 
The current rumored bandwidth of PS5 and Xsex of its GDDR6 RAM is 500+ GB/Sec. Is there some sort of ESRAM, EDRAM which can be implemented/added in conjunction with GDDR6 so that it can 'boost' the bandwidth to 800GB-1 TB/sec range (similar to HBM2-HBM2E-HBM3E memory)?
 
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Tulipanzo

Member
I've been clear that I think your summing up of the Sony/Nintendo position and MS position, because they're subjective and selectively formed, and because presented as some kind of rational clarification, is obfuscation.

We're all at it, this forum would be dead otherwise. But let's call a spade a spade eh....
Except, you haven't been clear at all, I asked you to clarify, and you refused.

MS has been quite open about moving to a generation-less model.
 
It's not by a hair if Samsung 980 read/write is 6500/5000. That's 1.5 GB more. So, it's possible for PS5 to have such SSD speed or little more.

According to this article isn't 5% at most, over 5% or even 10%


Btw. HBM2 price dropped significantly recently. 3 years ago from 160$/GB to todays 120$/16GB. If Vega has HBM 2 memory, well, that was 3 years ago, then PS5 3 years later can have HBM 2. And also, Sony is still silent on RAM type because some reasons.

You can't rely on DRAM Exchange as a representation of what the memory will cost the end-user (client) purchasing it from a given manufacturer. It's more as a valuation on the memory similar to a stock (kind of the reason they went with that website name to begin with). Yes a client can go to a supplier and use the price as a quote for bargaining, but chances are they are not going to get it at that price. Plus there are other market and industry factors that can't be reflected in the quoted rates. In a way, it's similar to when tech companies give theoretical performance numbers vs. real-world measurable performance metrics; they don't always align, and for certain use-cases they mis-align badly.

The 10% quoted figure is just the worst-case scenario speculative; these sort of things happen all the time and generally the worst-case is never reached, not even close. The RAM industry as a whole just got out of some rather nasty price-hiking (same with the GPU market); they aren't going to let that type of scenario play out so soon again. Also you have to consider that price increases can also be reflective of there being too much demand and the increases are meant as a way to stem some of that demand. Apple IIRC is looking to utilizing GDDR6 for upcoming products, but if you look at the timing of the supposed price increases with the system launches, it's most logical to conclude that Microsoft and Sony are also part of the reason for that demand, most likely for their next-gen gaming consoles.

Sony has been quiet on a lot of things, but when we look behind the scenes, it's easy to assume that not all of those reasons have been for keeping cards close to play as an ace in the hole. It could be due to having a surprise with HBM, but there's just as likely a chance they could be using GDDR6 and don't feel a need to mention that ATM since the amount on its own may not come off as super-impressive (won't represent an 8x increase in RAM, same with XSX) and that it'll be a known commodity. Going by past trends, I'm going to go with the latter of those, which is more than sufficient for gaming tasks and gaming-related data compression routines.

The current rumored bandwidth of PS5 and Xsex of its GDDR6 RAM is 500+ GB/Sec. Is there some sort of ESRAM, EDRAM which can be implemented/added in conjunction with GDDR6 so that it can 'boost' the bandwidth to 800GB-1 TB/sec range (similar to HBM2-HBM2E-HBM3E memory)?

Not really; the DDR3 +_ESRAM combo in XBO was already supposedly a nightmare for devs back then, because while the ESRAM gave a lot of bandwidth, that particular bandwidth was only applicable to the 32MB of ESRAM, not the 8GB of DDR3. MS even got called out (deservedly so) for trying to fudge the bandwidth numbers by combining the DDR3's bandwidth with the ESRAM's to state total system bandwidth (it may not've been MS tho, but media doing such instead).

Any ESRAM/EDRAM/NVRAM/MRAM/FRAM whatever either system would add as bandwidth "booster" would be applicable to that particular memory only; devs would still need to manage data between that memory and the GDDR6, whatever total system bandwidth you'd get would be between the two memories and therefore their own sizes. However, going with one of those other memories as a secondary pool would limit Sony or MS to a pool size of only a few megabytes, since they're all costly.

You're likely looking at 32-64MB at most for any of them, with BOM prices probably going between $15-$40 for them depending on the type and the size. Some of them, like FRAM, I don't even think are manufactured in capacities reaching 32MB, so you'd be looking at multiple chips, in parallel for best results (but that increases the real estate for the chips on the motherboard).
 
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Disco_

Member
I hate to be THAT guy but what would it take for 7nm RDNA next gen to be more powerful then the 12 nm 10 teraflop RTX 2080?

Just sitting around watching football having adult beverages and wanted more to talk about here :)
I mean, nvidia has a much better efficiency than AMD... that's why their GPUs perform better while having less TFs. But you probs know that @HeisenbergFX4 :p

Anyway beating a 10TF nvidia card would probably take more than 12TF RDNA from AMD.
The 5700xt is a ~9.2-9.4Tf card realistically as it never sits at the 1905mhz boost clock. The 2080 is a ~11.2tf card as it pretty much sits above boost at all times. The 2080 is ~12% stronger than the 5700 xt. In order for them to be equal, you'd need ~10.3Tf 5700xt, in a desktop environment. Basically a 40cu 5700xt@2025mhz game clock or a 36cu 5700@2225 game clock.
A console would probably need slightly less due to optimizations and such. But this is just bro math.
 
I was thinking about PS5 and Xsex improvements and being analogous to Wifi6 improvements to previous versions. Its not just about being better in general terms such as: "faster connections" and "better graphics". Its about improving efficiencies in its more fundamental levels that is game changing. So I am thinking that this TFLOP battle thing may not be as important as it may seem. Here are my noob analogies:

-If Wifi 6 was simply faster/better connections from wifi5, you would still have the same broken inefficient way of sending the signal to its clients (computers, phones etc). Wifi6 fixes all of that. Wifi6 may not be as fast as 5G (comes close) but because it fixes its most fundamental core way of sending the signal, it is game changing. No matter how fast the bandwidth/signal speed is you will still run into the same old problem of receiving the wifi signal the inefficient way (router sending the signal to one device at a time, and devices all competing for the same wifi signal). But some people are thinking that Wifi6 is slightly inferior than 5G simply because its not as fast as 5G. If Wifi6 had the same speed as 5G or more without fixing the fundamental inefficiencies, you would still run into the same problems of clients not receiving the proper bandwidth and signal, and would be asking "WTF I thought Wifi6 is so fast?"

-Lets say PS5 has less TFLOPS than Xsex (9.2 something vs 12 something). Although Xsex may have more TFLOPS, Sony seems to have fixed more of its consoles inefficiencies, implementation of its core components which frees up a lot of CPU and GPU to focus on High Fidelity graphics. That is game changing. I am not just talking about its SSD drive, or its special sauce, but something fundamental on how the console was put together. If we still focus on which console has more TFLOPS, you are still neglecting the inefficiencies and implementation of its core components.

In previous generations we cared about: bits, polygons per second, but haven't cared about it in a long time because graphics have reached a point where even if console A had more bits and polys than console B its not enough to make a significant difference on screen. So this may be a point on time where if we were to see cross gen games between Xsex and PS5 look virtually the same without having to use the lowest common denominator between consoles. PS5 may have less TFLOPS, but its not needed due to the efficiency improvement in its core components to create the visual effects. Xsex has more TFLOPS but it *is* needed to create the necessary desired visual effects.

-In other words, you can keep increasing the horsepower of the engine in a car, but unless you change the way the engine uses the fuel (miles per gallon), the type of fuel (electric, hydrogen, solar), the amount of fuel the car can store, the way car runs (brakes, type of tires), body composition materials used to make the car, shape of the car etc., the car will run inefficiently. Increasing the power of the engine is pointless unless you change the rest of the car.

With that being said, PS5 better have beast mode dual GPU running at 13 TFLOPS :messenger_beaming:.
Hope you guys had a good laugh at my thought process. :messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

Evilms

Banned
qb23ixlu9da41.jpg

7emgt8lu9da41.jpg
 
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Gavin Stevens

Formerly 'o'dium'
That's gorgeous, however, its also fake as tits. They usually are.

The reason I say fake is simple: Nobody is dumb enough to design the disk slot so that the bottom would slide against a surface. Or, if you want to get technical, those analog sticks are VERY shitty renders, as is the body of the controller.

But it certainly is a nice looking console. I expect the PS5 to be bigger than this, but still a sexy little number, more so compared to the bland beast of a series X.
 

Shin

Banned
it’s bad

The so-called g4m3rz won't care until there's nothing left but CoD9839/TLoU283 to choose from.
Until they the mindset will be: LoLz weeb/IDGAF about pixel titties and all the other shit, as long as it doesn't affect them it's all good.
Sony then tells themselves (or any company for that matter) that they are doing something good - self pat on back - cycle continues with the next gen of execs/gamers.
 

Disco_

Member
-Lets say PS5 has less TFLOPS than Xsex (9.2 something vs 12 something). Although Xsex may have more TFLOPS, Sony seems to have fixed more of its consoles inefficiencies, implementation of its core components which frees up a lot of CPU and GPU to focus on High Fidelity graphics. That is game changing. I am not just talking about its SSD drive, or its special sauce, but something fundamental on how the console was put together. If we still focus on which console has more TFLOPS, you are still neglecting the inefficiencies and implementation of its core components.
What are these inefficiencies?
 

Gavin Stevens

Formerly 'o'dium'
It's obviously a render from a fan. It's not specially realistic.

But its a lovely case study in showing how people will jump at anything these days as team real. To be fair, the number of fan renders I've seen of the PS5 is crazy, and some of them are utterly gorgeous sleek designs. The final design, I think a lot of people may be shocked at how large it is. It wont be some small thing. IMO.
 

Gudji

Member
But its a lovely case study in showing how people will jump at anything these days as team real. To be fair, the number of fan renders I've seen of the PS5 is crazy, and some of them are utterly gorgeous sleek designs. The final design, I think a lot of people may be shocked at how large it is. It wont be some small thing. IMO.

No one said it was real... it just looks cool.
 

magnumpy

Member
DS5 will be a big deal IMO. it's the most immediate link between PS5->you. I think they have a lot of unrevealed surprises in that regard! irresponsible far flung speculation FTW o_o

come to think of it, perhaps the name "dual shock" is past time for retirement. with all the talk we've heard of haptic feedback and what not, a better name should be found for the controller to better represent its next-gen nature. I would be lazy suggesting triple shock... haptic shock? ?_?
 
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Roronoa Zoro

Gold Member
Looks great, but impossible. If people here are expecting a 12-13TF machine, it will be much bigger.
Would it help to make it as deep as most entertainment center shelves like wiiu was deeper? Seems like space that goes unused and consoles only need to be as wide as a disc slot and some buttons beside it. They should be a little taller so fitting USBs under there will be easy and then deep like wiiu would be great
 


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He further stated that Assassin’s Creed Ragnarok will release in October and will be revealed on 12th February at the Sony’s PS5 reveal event which is yet to be announced, and the image above shows a female character named “Jora” who will be the main protagonist in Assassin’s Creed Ragnarok. We are currently wondering if Assassin’s Creed Ragnarok will allow us to choose our protagonist like Assassin’s Creed Odyssey. The Developers behind Assassin’s Creed Origins are working on the Assassin’s Creed Ragnarok according to that user, and the gameplay will be very similar to Assassin’s Creed Odyssey, and Origins. The map is huge and it will include England and Scandinavia.”
 
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