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[Coffinhal]

No, I get that and believe that there are dominated people in society. But as long as those words have very simple definitions based on a mechanical action of separating people on the basis of race, sex, gender, or class, you can never get away from the broad "X is racist" claim. Never ever. And I don't think the simple definitions will disappear, as flexible as language may be.

My solution is just to say that some instances of discrimination and physical separation are a-ok.

This is an ideological fight. Gramsci taught us that you need to impose your own words, and their meaning, to transform society. If you give up on that you can't win the ideological fight that is behind and that is important : this isn't equal that what racism was and still is.

What this thread showed is that you have to set the terms of the debate before having it. If you don't agree on it, it is difficult to talk about the actions, public policies, or sociological reports that are trying to tackle or discuss the reality of dominated minorities and how they are trying to emancipate without the need of dominant people.

Yes it is difficult and complex but you can't give up on that and history showed that you definitely shouldn't.

 

[Wafflecakes]

NeoGAF is not a far left echo chamber...

You can claim that all you want if it makes you feel better.

Hell, I am pretty damn far left and agree with GAF on most things. However, I also teach US History and Government... and the discussions that occur here do not in any way resemble the discussions that real people have about the issues in real life from what I have seen.

 

[excelsiorlef]

You can claim that all you want if it makes you feel better.

Hell, I am pretty damn far left and agree with GAF on most things. However, I also teach US History and Government... and the discussions that occur here do not in any way resemble the discussions that real people have about the issues in real life from what I have seen.

The fact that you're using that claim of "Far Left Echo Chamber" to deem this especially controversial is pretty shameful to be frank.

 

[GhostTrick]

You literally don't know what you're talking about here.

SOS Racisme was a political response to a mouvement against racial discrimination in the 80's. It was created by member of the french Socialist Party (which so happens to be Ann Hidalgo's political party). And was (in my opinion) a political move made to garner the immigrants vote. Ever since the creation of the party there's been this weird attachment to the Socialist Party so much so that they're was a separation in the early 2000's because the organisation was used to prop up young aspiring Socialist figures, not to mention the several financial fraud.

As for the LICRA let me use some quotes from him:





That was about gender parity in the government. He never apologised.

During a news segment about police brutality against two young black people (one dead and one raped), the journalist named some french celebrities who signed a petition to stop such acts. (Omar Sy, Yannick Noah and Eric Cantona were among the celebrities listed) He's first response?



He also said that islamophobia was an imposture to fight against.

I could go on and on about both of those sham of organisations but they're not an authority on what's racist or not.

I could provide links to all those claims if you want, they're in french though.

As for SOS Racisme, yes, the point was also to shut "La Marche des Beurs" following the first attempt "Touche pas a mon pote". Even though I think this association might be off in a lot of ways, I highly doubt the actual president, Dominique Sopo, would be racist or have something against black people...

 

[TestOfTide]

You can claim that all you want if it makes you feel better.

Hell, I am pretty damn far left and agree with GAF on most things. However, I also teach US History and Government... and the discussions that occur here do not in any way resemble the discussions that real people have about the issues in real life from what I have seen.

I don't think you get what excelsiorlef is saying.

Far Left would be The Young Turks, Jill Stein, Bernie or Bust, etc.

Neogaf definitely leans very liberal (mostly because it's more logical than conservatism 99% of the time and stands up better in a moderated debate), but not far left.

 

[Cyframe]

Perhaps a group setting that focuses on Black women could have been implemented differently but I'm extremely concerned with responses calling this an equivalent to apartheid or segregation. Those who make those analogies have no concept of history or systemic and systematic power. Adding, they are also ignorant to what happens with white people are involved in aspects of activism and an entire central premise is derailed. Even worse are those called safe spaces comparable to things like KKK meetings.

A lot of responses I've seen reek of concern trolling. Look at white people who hate BLM for no other fact than it means Black Lives Matter. If it was called All Lives Matter they wouldn't have been motivated to help, it's an emotional and moral lie, that a mere change in a name would motivate them.

In my own life, I've seen people preach equality and fairness while not understanding the systems. They think they core value system gives them insight when they never lived life as a Black person. Or Black people who haven't faced hardships giving an opinion on those who have had different experiences. It's detrimental.

When I was being bullied and racially harassed in HS(I would have loved to have a safe space apart from harassment but I guess that makes me just as bad as white kids who threatened to lynch me), the good white people never stood up for me, so I'm more than willing to believe it would be the same case with many dissenters here.

Understand the core message and racial reality a group has to face to consider something like this. Poor implementation for this festival is known but for anyone not to see the value in conversations had among minority groups, you aren't helping the situation. And for anyone to make any comparison, again to slavery, jim crow and the like, those are powerful words, use them appropriately or be judged harshly by those who have history and still live with oppression because of our race.

 

[blu]

No they didn't decide that non-minorities have nothing to contribute. They just want the centerpiece of a festival about BLACK FEMINISM to actually be focused on black feminists.

They don't want it to be like that picture of "black republicans" where it's literally just all white people.

Wouldn't that latter picture have more to do with the actual statistical rarity of such individuals?

I'd generally agree with you if we assumed there'd be much more interest among non-black, non-female in such a festival, but isn't that a bit of a stretch?

 

[Nepenthe]

I don't think you get what excelsiorlef is saying.

Far Left would be The Young Turks, Jill Stein, Bernie or Bust, etc.

Neogaf definitely leans very liberal (mostly because it's more logical than conservatism 99% of the time and stands up better in a moderated debate), but not far left.

Do those guys/outlets even count as far left on the international stage?

 

[Wafflecakes]

The fact that you're using that claim of to to deem this this especially controversial is pretty shameful to be frank.

Of please. I never said any of that. Hell, if you actually bothered reading you would see that I argued the opposite by saying that peoples reactions were over the top. Being over the top doesn't mean that there isn't some element of truth though.


...and you should be embarrassed that you are incapable of not projecting the arguments you perceive to have been made onto people who have not made them.

 

[GhostTrick]

I don't think you get what excelsiorlef is saying.

Far Left would be The Young Turks, Jill Stein, Bernie or Bust, etc.

Neogaf definitely leans very liberal (mostly because it's more logical than conservatism 99% of the time and stands up better in a moderated debate), but not far left.

Then again, what is far left ? France and USA dont have the same conception of left and right. Democrats, which I supposed is left in USA, would be considered right/center right in France, while Republicains would be right/far right...

 

[Mammoth Jones]

"Should be"



Attacking the source of a criticism is the height of laziness when you don't want to actually engage with said criticism.

You can't just dismiss a criticism because of its source, particularly when it has caused so much debate even on Neogaf, which is essentially a far left echo chamber. Ignoring it just makes the left look out of touch.

I'll always dismiss people that I think don't give a shit about my people. The fuck? Lmao.

I'm under no obligation to intellectually masturbate indifferent people when the truth is they don't truly give a rats ass about me and mine.

And I don't know who you think you talking to but I'm the last mofo to be considered "the far left" on here my dude...

 

[Mass_Pincup]

As for SOS Racisme, yes, the point was also to shut "La Marche des Beurs" following the first attempt "Touche pas a mon pote". Even though I think this association might be off in a lot of ways, I highly doubt the actual president, Dominique Sopo, would be racist or have something against black people...

I wouldn't go as far as to say that but I'm sure that they're primary interest are more to help the PS and less to fight against racism.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Of please. I never said any of that.


...and you should be embarrassed that you are incapable of not projecting the arguments you perceive to have been made onto people who have not made them.

"
You can't just dismiss a criticism because of its source, particularly when it has caused so much debate even on Neogaf, which is essentially a far left echo chamber.

You're giving weight to validity of this debate based on there being an actual debate here... here which you define as a far left echo chamber...

Those are your actual words.
If I am wrong by all means feel free to clarify but it reads pretty clear to me.

 

[GhostTrick]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that but I'm sure that they're primary interest are more to help the PS and less to fight against racism.

Right, but considering PS' actual state right now... :")
I doubt Anne Hidalgo did that for bad reasons. Then again as I said, it's just that France has a different conception on such topic.

 

[MikeyB]

This is an ideological fight. Gramsci taught us that you need to impose your own words, and their meaning, to transform society. If you give up on that you can't win the ideological fight that is behind and that is important : this isn't equal that what racism was and still is.

Yes it is difficult and complex but you can't give up on that and history showed that you definitely shouldn't.

Okay, sure on the redefining point, but I'm choosing to go the route of redefining racism and sexism as sometimes okay. I think it is a clearer point since it cuts to the heart of the matter.

 

[Palette Swap]

This really has nothing to do with "inclusiveness" and more about politics.

First, white people aren't banned from attending, there's just four specific activities:

-One for black women
-One for black people
-One for people of colour
-One for everyone

The """"""segregated"""""" places are held in private places while the other is held in a public space.

Furthermore the city of Paris is already funding places where some people based on gender aren't allowed to go in (a "maison des femmes" where women can go and be protected from abusive men). So championing inclusiveness isn't a proper way to condemn this when your funding places which ban people based on gender.

Let's add the fact that the LICRA and SOS Racisme are joke organisation for a lot of people and that this whole thing was started by the french equivalent of Breitbart and 4chan and I'll let you fill in the rest.

(I really like this post)

Yeah, at its heart, it's definitely people playing politics, and Hidalgo and these organizations playing to the right/far-right's tune. It was started by FN, but on these issues, there's virtually no difference between FN and half of the mainstream right. These guys were concern trolled and they fell for it. I don't think the festival's messaging was great, but as you said, these kinds of private, exclusive spaces definitely exist and create no outrage. The "could I walk in there?" test is a trap.

On a broader note, I think we do have an approach to these privileged/unprivileged issues that generally runs counter to the Anglo-Saxon approach. There's this very theoretical, universalist undercurrent that demands a perfect reciprocity for every principle (i.e. "don't fight discrimation with discrimination") and it's deeply ingrained within our education and thought processes, including if you're a progressive who grew up in a progressive household.
This approach tends to be unpractical, and is often a just principle with unjust results.

Meanwhile, there's a shitload of issues where we (privileged French people) collectively sacrifice principles to practicality and are hypocritical. Typically, we will bypass educational districts to make sure our kids don't go to school with the poor, brown kids from the neighboring district, making sure they don't mix.
We have de facto segregated housing, with rich towns and districts going out of their way to either avoid affordable housing units entirely, or dumping them all in one place (i.e. dump all the poor people together). Some towns would rather pay fines for not meeting affordable requirements, this says something.

I mean, there's a lot of great people and inclusive places, but we vastly overestimate how open and tolerant we are.

 

[Wafflecakes]

You're giving weight to validity of this debate based on there being an actual debate here... here which you define as a far left echo chamber...

Those are your actual words.

Holy shit. You are so deep down your own rabbit hole when it comes to the meaning of my posts that it is worthless discussing it with you.

You will see the argument you want to see. Not the one that is actually there.



...whatever gets you off I guess.

 

[TTOOLL]

Good mayor, I would vote for her.

 

[TestOfTide]

Wouldn't that latter picture have more to do with the actual statistical rarity of such individuals?

I'd generally agree with you if we assumed there'd be much more interest among non-black, non-female in such a festival, but isn't that a bit of a stretch?

And again, they aren't rejecting non-black and male individuals from the event entirely. They are just setting up the event so that the centerpiece is all black feminists.

Likewise, I would understand complaints about the event if they were excluding groups from the event ENTIRELY. But they aren't.

Do those guys/outlets even count as far left on the international stage?

Yes. The examples I gave are absolutely far left even on a global stage. Remember that TYT has a guy who wanted LePen to win because they hated the fact that Macron is a moderate. Remember that Jill Stein literally referred to nuclear power plants as "bombs". Remember that Bernie or Bust shouted "No TPP" over Elijah Cummings as he was talking about civil rights history.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Holy shit. You are so deep down your own rabbit hole when it comes to the meaning of my posts that it is worthless discussing it with you.

You will see the argument you want to see. Not the one that is actually there.



...whatever gets you off I guess.

How else should I have read your post saying that there was debate about this even here in the "Far Left Echo Chamber"

Like every time black folk do something protesty there's a debate about if they are doing it right...Block traffic, dis-inviting police, kneeling during the anthem, etc... There being debate here on these issues is nothing new and has fuck all to do with some nebulous idea of a far-left echo chamber.

Again if I am somehow not reading your intent clearly by all means let me know how I am reading it wrong.

 

[blu]

And again, they aren't rejecting non-black and male individuals from the event entirely. They are just setting up the event so that the centerpiece is all black feminists.

Likewise, I would understand complaints about the event if they were excluding groups from the event ENTIRELY. But they aren't.

And I know some NA companies where they keep a POC employee per department, so that the company would not be accused of racial discrimination.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

The fact that you're using that claim of "Far Left Echo Chamber" to deem this especially controversial is pretty shameful to be frank.

Truly

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

In what sense this is different with non-mix feminist reunion ? It's just a safe space to speak among people facing the same issue, calling it racism is nonsense. As feminist are not sexist to do women only reunions.

LICRA reaction is disgusting, as usual. Don't use Rosa Parks when you're promoting apartheid in Palestine.

 

[caliph95]

And again, they aren't rejecting non-black and male individuals from the event entirely. They are just setting up the event so that the centerpiece is all black feminists.

Likewise, I would understand complaints about the event if they were excluding groups from the event ENTIRELY. But they aren't.



Yes. The examples I gave are absolutely far left even on a global stage. Remember that TYT has a guy who wanted LePen to win because they hated the fact that Macron is a moderate. Remember that Jill Stein literally referred to nuclear power plants as "bombs". Remember that Bernie or Bust shouted "No TPP" over Elijah Cummings as he was talking about civil rights history.

Is it Jimmy Dore

 

[Silent Chief]

In my experience, festivals try to attract as many people as they can.
If the demand is too high, they just increase the admission fees.
Also, you control the events, not the attendance. That's just backwards.

 

[Tiberius]

In what sense this is different with non-mix feminist reunion ? It's just a safe space to speak among people facing the same issue, calling it racism is nonsense. As feminist are not sexist to do women only reunions.

LICRA reaction is disgusting, as usual. Don't use Rosa Parks when you're promoting apartheid in Palestine.

But during nuit debout the non mix feminist reunions were seen as divisive among the movement

 

[Opto]

White people never want to go to a black event until they're told they can't

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

But during nuit debout the non mix feminist reunions were seen as divisive among the movement

It's always divisive, but that doesn't make it wrong.
Speaking about racism, sexism, homophobia, islamophobia would always be divisive.
The main argument of those groups is that you cannot speak truly freely while people not living the same experience as you do are here. It dosen't seems a totally crazy concept.

 

[Nepenthe]

White people never want to go to a black event until they're told they can't

That's the crux of it all innit?

 

[Tiberius]

It's always divisive, but that doesn't make it wrong.
Speaking about racism, sexism, homophobia, islamophobia would always be divisive.
The main argument of those groups is that you cannot speak truly freely while people not living the same experience as you do are here. It dosen't seems a totally crazy concept.

Well it's a concept totally forgetting empathy, yes male/white people don't suffer like women/PoC but it doesn't mean these people can't understand and aprehend it, and participate about it
It's insane in my opinion to alienate a population to your cause, because of the same reason you're fighting

 

[Derwind]

White people never want to go to a black event until they're told they can't

They're not even barred from the event, it's just that a few seem to think it's racist because some parts of a black-feminist festival shockingly doesn't require their involvement. It's comical levels of self-centered ego at this point.

 

[Izuna]

I'm going to try my best to try and clear up some air here. I'm woefully off base but perhaps I can do some good.

1. The "definition"

Segregation is a culturally charged word. What that word means in the context of race, reflects the recent history or people being put into different places for being different. The history behind the word, when used in history, has meant the separation of races into situations that are by no means comparable to being denied access to a festival these white people wouldn't care about if they weren't excluded anyway. The meaning and context of that word talks to very serious events that shouldn't be compared with this.

The other opinion is the dictionary definition. To take its meaning in a general sense where you could say "I have segregated my class into 2 football teams." It has no substance. If it has no substance, then don't use to word. Say separate, say unincluded. Don't say it because you want to appropriate the importance of calling something segregation. To do that, you are inherently comparing this to the awful history and saying it's the same.

 

[akira28]

You're right but they won't listen.

The main issue here is that people are talking about an issue about which they have little knowledg : they don't even master the words needed for a conservation and are just here to shout their opinion. An opinion that is irrelevant since they don't know anything about the topic they discuss.

damn that feels familiar. something something and maple sizzurrp?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Well it's a concept totally forgetting empathy, yes male/white people don't suffer like women/PoC but it doesn't mean these people can't understand and aprehend it, and participate about it
It's insane in my opinion to alienate a population to your cause, because of the same reason you're fighting

If it's done constantly, i agree. If it's a specific time to speak about specific sensibles issues, i don't understand how it's a problem. I don't speak is a matter of empathy but just political realism. Extraordinary people does exist, that won't treat your experience with denial/paternalism, but it's exceptional.

 

[akira28]

Only white people (or however you spell it these days apparently), yet "French anti-racist and antisemitism organisations strongly condemned the festival".

for some reason i'm picturing these French groups as being primarily made up of non-brown people.

 

[akira28]

I wont want an employer to give me a job just because i'm Black so they can fill their diversity quota. I want to earn it. So yeah positive discrimination in a work place is not cool.

we could have save so much time. hours. HOURS if you had just opened up with this little gem.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

for some reason i'm picturing these French groups as being primarily made up of non-brown people.

As French, i can tell you that they are.

SOS racisme is infamous in the antiracist movement as the worst kind of political umbrella used to silence anti-racism. The only brown people are your typical uncle tom defending the worst anti-muslims legislation in the name of republicanism.

Licra is infamous to make a distinction between racism and antisemitism and is openly pro-israel. You can find here a list of their leadership, mostly white. The exceptional arab is a object of ridicule in France since he made up various documentary about islamic radicalism, presenting himself as a hero when it was staged/made up. It's our french Joey Salad.

Antiracist groups made up primarily by non-whites are constantly silenced and accused of radicalism in the mass medias.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

A (french, sorry) text to understand the reason explaining why non-mixity is necessary from a feminist perspective, from Christine Delphy who is a legend in french feminism history.

http://lmsi.net/La-non-mixite-une-necessite

 

[akira28]

As French, i can tell you that they are.

SOS racisme is infamous in the antiracist movement as the worst kind of political umbrella used to silence anti-racism. The only brown people are your typical uncle tom defending the worst anti-muslims legislation in the name of republicanism.

Licra is infamous to make a distinction between racism and antisemitism and is openly pro-israel.

Antiracist groups made up primarily by non-whites are constantly silenced and accused of radicalism in the mass medias.

ah so racism will be solved by the proud French people in a proud French way. Browns and Blacks need not trouble themselves, they need only wait. (They tried this in America by the way. History books can show pictures of how bad things got.)

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

ah so racism will be solved by the proud French people in a proud French way. Browns and Blacks need not trouble themselves, they need only wait. (They tried this in America by the way. History books can show pictures of how bad things got.)

France is even worst than America in that regard. Any black/brown/arab/asian political/militant group would be perceived as "communautariste" and will be frown upon.

So racial question in french is just a moral issue: it's bad to don't like people because of the color of their skin. Nothing about education, housing, legal discrimination, jobs..

 

[royalan]

Perhaps a group setting that focuses on Black women could have been implemented differently but I'm extremely concerned with responses calling this an equivalent to apartheid or segregation. Those who make those analogies have no concept of history or systemic and systematic power. Adding, they are also ignorant to what happens with white people are involved in aspects of activism and an entire central premise is derailed. Even worse are those called safe spaces comparable to things like KKK meetings.

A lot of responses I've seen reek of concern trolling. Look at white people who hate BLM for no other fact than it means Black Lives Matter. If it was called All Lives Matter they wouldn't have been motivated to help, it's an emotional and moral lie, that a mere change in a name would motivate them.

In my own life, I've seen people preach equality and fairness while not understanding the systems. They think they core value system gives them insight when they never lived life as a Black person. Or Black people who haven't faced hardships giving an opinion on those who have had different experiences. It's detrimental.

When I was being bullied and racially harassed in HS(I would have loved to have a safe space apart from harassment but I guess that makes me just as bad as white kids who threatened to lynch me), the good white people never stood up for me, so I'm more than willing to believe it would be the same case with many dissenters here.

Understand the core message and racial reality a group has to face to consider something like this. Poor implementation for this festival is known but for anyone not to see the value in conversations had among minority groups, you aren't helping the situation. And for anyone to make any comparison, again to slavery, jim crow and the like, those are powerful words, use them appropriately or be judged harshly by those who have history and still live with oppression because of our race.

YAAASSSS CHILD. You better come thru with this church.

Every word

 

[trixx]

Should've just invited the people that they wanted to come while theoretically being able to invite everyone. As slayven said if they marketed it as black feminism event chances are this wouldn't have blown up as much, and the people truly interested as well as some trolls would've attended.

As far as the whole topic of segregation, I mean segregation still occurs today. Sure its not depicted in laws or rules but it still happens all the time just that it isn't openly stated. I don't see the difference between openly stated and the more covert types.

I agree that by the laws this event is problematic. Socially? It's kind of the norm, no?

I don't understand how it is in France though

Edit: I like the definition put forth by Izuna and agree to it being the latter; seperation/not invited if anything and it's quite normalized.

 

[Messofanego]

Well it's a concept totally forgetting empathy, yes male/white people don't suffer like women/PoC but it doesn't mean these people can't understand and aprehend it, and participate about it
It's insane in my opinion to alienate a population to your cause, because of the same reason you're fighting

So white people have to be allowed to every function, no matter if it has nothing to do with them or won't benefit with their inclusion? Why should they be given the benefit of the doubt that you'll get the most tolerant and empathic white people to come to every single non-white focused event? Enough to jump to racism/discrimination defenses even though that's an insensitive card to pull compared to the amount of history non-whites have gone through. Non-whites just can't catch a break at all.

 

[Tiberius]

So white people have to be allowed to every function, no matter if it has nothing to do with them or won't benefit with their inclusion? Why should they be given the benefit of the doubt that you'll get the most tolerant and empathic white people to come to every single non-white focused event? Enough to jump to racism/discrimination defenses even though that's an insensitive card to pull compared to the amount of history non-whites have gone through. Non-whites just can't catch a break at all.

The problem here is that you're defining people identity by their ethnicity, i don't care about their color, if there's people coming to your festival they are open to your cause, just shunning them because of a melanine difference is idiotic
They don't have anything to do here or the movement won't benefit from them, is really a sectarist view

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

The problem here is that you're defining people identity by their ethnicity
They don't have anything to do here or the movement won't benefit from them, is really a sectarist view

Nobody said that. They were welcomed in the festival except in a specific set of reunions.

 

[Tiberius]

Nobody said that. They were welcomed in the festival except in a specific set of reunions.

I just reused Messofanego's rethoric
And when i read some posts which core is based on the "we colour people vs you white people" spectrum it's really disturbing

 

[Cyframe]

The problem here is that you're defining people identity by their ethnicity, i don't care about their color, if there's people coming to your festival they are open to your cause, just shunning them because of a melanine difference is idiotic
They don't have anything to do here or the movement won't benefit from them, is really a sectarist view

Allow me to humor you. If the subject in a closed group is, "as Black women, dealing with racism and misogyny is a two-fold burden." And the group wants to share experiences, what white person can add anything to that topic? Nothing.

Private groups, on private property, discussing those issues is not sectarist. God...

 

[Tiberius]

Allow me to humor you. If the subject in a closed group is, "as Black women, dealing with racism and misogyny is a two-fold burden." And the group wants to share experiences, what white person can add anything to that topic? Nothing.

Private groups, on private property, discussing those issues is not sectarist. God...

A white woman cannot add anything to misoginy ?
A gay man/woman cannot add anything to discrimination ?
If your answer to both is no well our view are definitely irreconcilable

 

[GKnight]

I'll admit i dont ubderstand the context but I will say I have trouble stomaching being barred from an event my wife and kids can attend because they are POC's and I am not.
Seems a bit silly when you think about it on such a small individual level.

Of course I understand that on a macro level it is different.

 

[Derwind]

A white woman cannot add anything to misoginy ?
A gay man/woman cannot add anything to discrimination ?
If your answer to both is no well our view are definitely irreconcilable

Why do you think experiences are going to be inherently the same? Or even relevant in some cases?